So here is a new thread for 10th Edition.



To kick it off I will state some things I said in the previous thread:

1. A unit of Rubric flamers with Ahriman is basically a must include. Using twist of fate it can basically delete almost any unit, especially if that unit is on an objective. Interestingly, I also have been putting a soul reaper cannon in my unit as the 10th man. I did this because I only owned 8 flamers with the sorcerer, so needed a tenth man, but it is good as the flamers are no longer assault, so you can always fire the soul reaper at the same time. You only lose d6 shots to gain 6 shots with better strength and devastating wounds. It adds a bit of longer range punch and +1 to wound from Ahriman is still good on it.

2. Scarab Occult Terminators are bananas good. The -1 to wound is so much better than All is Dust for these guys, and I have had them tank over 20 wounds due to that rule so far.

3. I have not played them yet, but forge fiends might be really good. I watched a TTT battle report which an ork unit that had the same ability shot the Tau units, and it basically crippled the primary damage dealer. Even against BS3 units, I think there is a lot of utility there. And they are 10 points cheaper then Hellbrutes.

4. The winged daemon prince. I know everyone is jazzed for the foot one with-1 to hit, but the speed and utility of the winged one with the ability to go anywhere on the board within 9" every turn is really good. It also lets you put doombolt basically anywhere on the table. I might bring one of each.


So this is to kick off tenth! Praise be to Tzeentch.

Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

Lorex wrote:
Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.

Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.

Errata out today for the cards only (not the printable PDFs):

Cabal of Sorcerers Army Rule – Temporal Surge
Add additional sentence to read:‘If it does, that unit is not eligible to declare a charge this turn.

This could explain that recent poster that thought they could charge after using this, they might have been reading the card.

’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.

I'm very happy with non disc Infantry only TSons which was the first in game attempt I've made. No Magnus, no MVB. Gives more cabal points to play with and no good targets for their anti-tank weapons.

I was pleasantly surprised at the various smites on the HQs and squad leaders. But, do be careful with the Scarab Occult leader as he has a pistol smite, so needs to choose between that and his combi-bolter. Similarly the HQs have gun pistols and non pistol smites so can't cast and shoot. The Rubric leader and TSon Sorcerer however have a gun pistol and a pistol smite so can go wild with a bit of blasting from both.

 xeen wrote:

Lorex wrote:
Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.

Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.

Thanks for the answer.
I was thinking of a infantry support not back line support.
So Hellbrut sounds nice.
What do you think of the rubrics with flamers?
Im abit worried that GW might go back to weapon points abit later. And in a 1000pts I dont know if I will have support for a unit with flamers. But is 20 rubric with bolters good to have?

Lorex wrote:

 xeen wrote:

Lorex wrote:
Hellbrut what weapons is best for it now in 10th edition?

I use mine with a LC/ML but that is because I have the old FW actual thousand sons dreadnoughts, and that is what they are modeled with. It is a bit underwhelming of a load out. If I was going to get more I would definitely take a CC weapon. You want the dreadnoughts to be on the front line as that is where you are probably casting Cabal Spells, and so where you can benefit from their ability (mine sit in the back and shoot, so I did not get to really use the ability, which is clearly part of their points cost). As for gun, LC is probably the least worst option. Dreadnoughts are one of the few platforms we have for AT weapons, and the army is already so good at killing infantry so HB or AC are not really that useful. And the MM is so nerfed that it is not worth taking (play against MMs and they are crap now). So LC/CC is probably the best load out.

Although keep this in mind, Forgefiends are 10 points cheaper and have suppression, and a Perdator with LCs is 25 points cheaper. So if you want back gunline AT, there are probably better options.

Thanks for the answer.
I was thinking of a infantry support not back line support.
So Hellbrut sounds nice.
What do you think of the rubrics with flamers?
Im abit worried that GW might go back to weapon points abit later. And in a 1000pts I dont know if I will have support for a unit with flamers. But is 20 rubric with bolters good to have?

So, the flamers are awesome, especially with Ahriman, but even with exalteds would be good. You want to bring a 10 man of them in basically every list. Personally for Rubrics I like 5 with all the upgrades over ten for bolters. The bolters are ok, but really need the strats to make them good, and you probably want to use them on the SoT. Also you get a whole lot more out of a 5 man with a normal character sorcerer then adding extra guys for about the same price. 1000 points is hard for TS to build, because our Cabals don't scale and we need lots of characters. At 1000 points I would probably bring a 10 man flamer with character, 5 man Rubric, 5 man SoT and fill out the rest with more characters or Dreads or DP. At 1000 points you are going to rock paper scissor hard depending on your opponent.

So I have been playing this game for 30+ years since I was 11 years old in Second Edition. Don't worry about what GW will do in the future. Things are going to change. That is a certain. Units get better, worse you have no control. But I think we have at least a year before they make any massive change like charging for weapons again, so you should be fine. And hopefully by then you will have more units in your collection to offset any changes.

.

Kind of based on what you are saying here is an example 1000 point army I would use

Ahriman - 110
10 x Rubrics with flamers - 190
Sorceror -85
10 x Rubrics with bolters, soulreaper etc. - 190
TS Dreadnought with twin LC and CC weapon -145
Scarab Occult Terminators - 205
Tgors - 65

Total 990

So you put Ahriman with the flamers, the Sorceor with the 10 bolter guys (he gives Lethal hits and cannot be targeted outside of 18') as your main front line, supported by the Terminators and Dread. The Tgors hold the back objective and try to general cabal points.

Based on what you said, I assume you have 20 Rubrics and an hellbrute. If you also own the combat partol that nets you the SoT, a infernal master (just use at the Sorceror) and the Tgors. You just need to get Ahriman, and the older model can be found pretty cheap on Ebay.

I lost my first game of 10th.
However, I've won the others, against SM (88-34, tabled), Necrons (82-31, tabled), Chaos Knights (80-22, tabled), and SM again (95-43, tabled).

My list is:
Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Rubric flamers
Exalted Sorcerer (LoFL) + 10 Rubric flamers
Sorcerer (Vortex) + 10 Rubric flamers
Termie Sorcerer (Crystal) + 10 Termies
10x Tzaangors
Rhino

I just keep my army in Devastating Wounds mode because it's easier to remember and because bypassing saves via mortals is better than the lethal hits. Since everything seems to get cover, and all the best targets have a 2+/4++ anyhow, mortals do a lot more work.

The Termies have Lethal Hits thanks to the leader, the strat gives them Psychic bolters, and standing next to Magnus makes them hit on 2s and wound on 5s into big things...which don't have an armour save because of sorcery. My last game I deleted a Redemptor dread T1 and then a Gladiator T2.

The other neat combo I've worked out is triple overwatch. Spend 1CP to overwatch with flamers. Use LoFL to overwatch again for 6 sorcery points and no CP. Use Ahriman to overwatch AGAIN for free.
I think it's a good use of 6 sorcery points, and if you'd rather use Ahriman to get a better ritual, doing it 2x is still quite nasty.

Speaking of Ahriman, the +1 to wound combos very well with the ignores armour sorcery to make his unit quite able to stand on its own apart from the rest of the army. I had a War Dog charge into the unit, and a combination of auto-hitting overwatch from flamers that reroll some wounds and then close combat that ignore saves killed the thing in his turn, allowing my unit to do whatever it wanted in my turn without being tied up.

I like the Vortex on the Sorcerer, spices up his psychic shooting to be able to kill Marines for each failed save, and Sustained Hits 3 is just wacky.

I prefer the Exalted Sorcerer on foot for his resurrection ability, and I stick that unit into the Rhino. Losing a model in the explosion is much less scary when it just gets back up.

I'm considering swapping the Tzaangors for Spawn, they're the same points and the Spawn seem a bit more survivable (W8 T5 Sv4+/5++ vs W10 T4 Sv6+/6++). Although the extra cabal point is nice. The larger footprint from 10 models is something I'm not sure about....easier to screen out deep strike, harder to get into cover or to get into another table quarter....

Yalls thoughts on Vortex beasts? Seems pretty great to me and it's making it hard to not put them in every list xD

Overwatch has an extra once per turn restriction. I don’t think you can bypass that.

Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

But Phase and Turn are not the same.

It could do with an FAQ, for sure, but as written Overwatch has the normal restriction (once per phase) and an extra one (once per turn). You can ignore one restriction-but nothing lets you ignore the other one.

Hello with the new errata : ’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.
Does that mean than rubric and scarab occult weapons have now psychic and get all the time devastating wound if you wish?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

It gives allowance for PHASE limit. Not TURN limit.

You　can't use same stratagem more than once per PHASE. Ritual overrides that.

You can't overwatch more than once per TURN. Ritual doesn't override that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

taetrius67 wrote:
Hello with the new errata : ’Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult Terminators – Ranged Weapons, WarpsmiteAdd ‘[PSYCHIC]’.
Does that mean than rubric and scarab occult weapons have now psychic and get all the time devastating wound if you wish?

It's just warpsmite. Spell of unit leader.

Btw this is errata for physical cards. Pdf was correct all the time.

The tarantulas battery from astra militarum specifically says "you can target this unit with the fire overwatch Stratagem for 0cp.and can do so even if you have already used that Stratagem on a different unit this phase"

So there is definitely rules in the game than let you overwatch twice while referencing phase not turn so I'd think we can probably do so as well

tneva82 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Correct. No rule so far allows overwatch more than once per turn

Well, except for the Echoes From the Warp ritual that very clearly states you can use a strat on a unit "even if you have already used that Stratagem this phase."
Explicit permission overrides a restriction.

It gives allowance for PHASE limit. Not TURN limit.

You　can't use same stratagem more than once per PHASE. Ritual overrides that.

You can't overwatch more than once per TURN. Ritual doesn't override that.

Ok so explain this one to me. It's an identical situation and wording.

The Necron Hexmark says, "Once per turn, one unit from your army with this ability can be targeted with the Fire Overwatch Stratagem for 0CP, even if you have already used that Stratagem on a different unit this phase."

The explicit permission to use the strat multiple times per phase overrides the explicit restriction that OW can only be used once per turn.

Clearly, the Hexmark's ability works. And since the wording is the same, the ritual also works.

I have the feeling that the sentence in Overwatch is supposed to be "This stratagem cannot be used on the same unit more than once per turn." or "A unit cannot benefit from this stratagem more than once per turn." Because that would make all of the abilities which talk about "per phase" interact with Overwatch in a reasonable manner.

Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

A.T. wrote:
Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

Well, theirs two uses I can think of:

1) teleporting a flamer brick into range fir w crisping.

2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.

A.T. wrote:
Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

I took mine thinking I'd use it for an objective grab or quick reposition for saving them/stopping opponent.

What I have found to be doing most games is starting terms on board and turn 1 shoving them in the middle as a brick that I play around

xerxeskingofking wrote:

A.T. wrote:
Umbralefic Crystal positioning - where do people like to put this?

After a recent game i've been thinking of combining it with a Landraider/Scarab unit - it's a lot of points to get tied up on a flank or entangled in wreckage, particularly when the land raider itself may be wanting to park up on an objetive.

Thoughts?

Well, theirs two uses I can think of:

1) teleporting a flamer brick into range fir w crisping.

2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.

Flamers was the classic use but Ahrimann is such a sweet buff for flamers...guess i need. 2 flamer units?

xerxeskingofking wrote:
2) a "get out of melee free" card for a Terminator unit, as theirs no restrictions on being out of engagement range on it. So if they charge you to deny shooting, you can crystal out of combat and blast away without issue.

That is how I had been running it, but with the unit on the board by the time it had taken fire and absorbed a charge there wasn't much left to get out of melee.
Perhaps because I have been seeing more marines and no so much gaunts and similar chaff.

Well had my third game of tenth v. IG.

My list was as follows
Ahriman
10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Dreadnought LC/ML
Land Raider
Term Sorcerer
10 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with flamers
DP with wings

The IG had two basilisks, a Dorn, Tank Com russ, a russ, a bunch of Krieg death riders, death strike missile, and a load of Krieg infantry.

We used the old tempest deck because it is hard to find the new deck as it is sold out everywhere and I don't want to pay an up charge for it on ebay. (the tempest deck is still usable, just change moral to battleshock and remove the card that had stuff happen in the psychic phase)

I went first

Thoughts on Units

Ahriman w/ 10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper: as previously mentions this is a must take. This guys put in work both shooting and overwatch to kill infantry trying to take an objective. Ahriman's ability to use Twist of Fate for free is so good. I started these guys in the landraider as I was worried about indirect shooting, but I think that was a mistake because I don't think you get Cabal Points if they are in a transport and that was 4 less I had both turn 1 and turn 2.

Sorcerer w/ 5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper - I think this is the best way to run bolter rubrics. The Sorcerer adds so much between the lethal hits, no targeting, and his shooting attack is actually quite potent against all but the toughest units. The only problem is this game one got stuck babysitting the home objective (they did get to kill some strategic reserve things) and it is a lot of points to babysit.

Term Sorcerer w. 10 x SoT with all the stuff- this is where I put the crystal and I used it turn one to put them in the midfield on an objective. They are really hard to shift and IG did not have anything that could hurt them in CC, so they just shot and sat on the objective. Personally I think I like two 5 man for three total better than the 10. I felt like most of my eggs were in that basket, and it was hard to hide them for turn 1 and place them well due to unit size. I am going to switch back to 3 x 5 man for the next game. Still use the Term Sorcerer with crystal to put 5 in mid board turn one, but then 2 more out of deep strike for more tactical flexibility. I have discovered in tenth it is much less important to have all the assets on turn 1 for an alpha strike.

5 x SoT - I bring the flamer on these guys because that is what is modeled, and it is not nearly as good as Soul Reaper. Coming out of deep strike in front of the enemy lines is pretty good.

Dreadnought LC/ML- not impressed with this. Its damage output is petty meager, and the Cabal Point rule is nice, but my dreadnought is usually out of position to use it, and the few times I did use it, it basically wouldn't matter. Maybe a CC one, but even then I don't think it is worth its points.

Land Raider- This thing is petty awesome. It is hard to take down, has good AT firepower (especially with twist of fate on the target) and being able to deliver units to CC is cool. It might be a bit overpriced for TS as it doesn't really benefit from any of our rules or strats. I am taking Magnus for my next game so this guy is coming out due to points, but I don't think it is a bad pick.

DP with wings- I really liked his mobility last game, but this game he flew up and killed some infiltrating horses, then got killed turn one when I failed two multi-melta saves (so used the 0 dam start) then took a vanquisher shot to the face (he hit 4+ wounded 2+, then I failed 4++ then failed 4++ with re-roll so a bit unlucky there). My opponent was really worried about the teleporting so really focused on him with his AT as opposed to the LR. I am going to give him a try next to Magnus who will soak up the AT shots and let the DP do his thing.

Hope this is helpful

Also to the questions in the thread prior about the Crystal, I use it to put SoT on the midboard for early scoring (5 or 10). I like that has the main use. You could use it with the flamers, however, I don't think the flamers are as good without Ahriman, and you always want Ahriman anyway, so it would have to be on a second squad, which starts to get pricey. And the rubrics are not nearly as tough as the SoT so if you use it on the flamers they will probably be dead in short order. Plus you would have to pay for a sorcerer to lead them (not efficent as you are wasting the lethal hits and 18' targeting) or bring an exhaled sorcerer, which personally I don't think are as good. I would stick with the SoT personally.

Great write-up. Thanks.

 xeen wrote:
Also to the questions in the thread prior about the Crystal, I use it to put SoT on the midboard for early scoring (5 or 10).

Why wouldn't you just deepstrike the scarabs?

Presumably by early he means t1 right away. Ds can come t2 earliest and midboard might not get to useful spot due to 9" rule without 28% charge.

Also no t1 shooting then.

Fair enough.

Yea. For turn one positioning.

Preparing for a game against Necrons. I've got a Sorcerer with the crystal to get 10 flamers up into a good unit and turn off their saves turn 1, but a lot of people are putting Ahriman with them (I can see why).
If the flamers go with Ahriman, how are you delivering them, as a I don't want to walk 10 flamer marines up the board?
That does mean Ahriman is sat with 10 bolter marines instead though, which feels a bit wasteful.
Thoughts?

KirvesUK wrote:
Preparing for a game against Necrons. I've got a Sorcerer with the crystal to get 10 flamers up into a good unit and turn off their saves turn 1, but a lot of people are putting Ahriman with them (I can see why).
If the flamers go with Ahriman, how are you delivering them, as a I don't want to walk 10 flamer marines up the board?
That does mean Ahriman is sat with 10 bolter marines instead though, which feels a bit wasteful.
Thoughts?

Unless you are playing planet bowling ball you are usually ok to walk them. I personally usually set them up behind cover then move, then use cabal to move again. That puts them with a 22' threat range (5 + 5 +12) They do tend to get hit hard back in that situation, but I have used overwatch with them every time, so basically get two rounds of shooting. They also need a bit of focused fire to kill them unless the enemy is really good at shooting. Be careful with the warriors because if you don't kill them in one go, they will regen hard and negate your attacks.

I also put them in a Land Raider once to deliver them up the field, and I guess you could use a Rhino, but I think they don't generate Cabal in a transport, and that is 4 points.

A sorcerer goes well on the bolters, with the 18" range protection. What else are you bringing?

Thanks you for the reply.
So originally I was thinking terminators X10 with a sorcerer to teleport in and hold the middle, the sorcerer easily pointing at a unit each turn for reroll 1s.
Magnus seems an obvious choice, get him near a front unit for the rerolls, possibly the terminators.
A unit of 10 flamers with a Sorcerer and crystal.
A unit of 10 bolters with Ahriman.

So potentially swap the sorcerer into the bolters, and walk Ahriman down the field with the flamers?
Is there any point in teleporting 10 bolter marines with the crystal at that point?

The last 465 points were currently on a Knight Lancer, I wanted to turn off the saves on a unit and charge it with a Knight. I realise this isn't the way a competitive list would work though and I'm sure open to suggestions on 465pts of something else!!!

You can reserve Ahriman and the flamer unit and walk on a table edge turn two to flame as well. Ahriman's +1 to wound is very clutch to have on the flamers.

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks you for the reply.
So originally I was thinking terminators X10 with a sorcerer to teleport in and hold the middle, the sorcerer easily pointing at a unit each turn for reroll 1s.
Magnus seems an obvious choice, get him near a front unit for the rerolls, possibly the terminators.
A unit of 10 flamers with a Sorcerer and crystal.
A unit of 10 bolters with Ahriman.

So potentially swap the sorcerer into the bolters, and walk Ahriman down the field with the flamers?
Is there any point in teleporting 10 bolter marines with the crystal at that point?

The last 465 points were currently on a Knight Lancer, I wanted to turn off the saves on a unit and charge it with a Knight. I realise this isn't the way a competitive list would work though and I'm sure open to suggestions on 465pts of something else!!!

That looks similar to what I would bring. I would put the crystal on the 10 man terminator squad to first turn deepstrike to get into position. The bolters don't want to deep strike, only advance to the midfield and take an objective and protect it with the 18' range reduction. Is this 2000? Seems light. The knight could be good I only have the Abrohant and I have not used it yet. I actually like the bolters as 5 man with a sorcerer better as you get more cabal and the extra 5 rubrics only add a few bolter shots.

Also you don't have any unit for backfield objective. You don't want to do that with 10 Rubrics with a character, as that would be really inefficent

Great backfield objective holder is The Changling. Cheap, hard to target and easy to hide.

The TOs at a the Tacoma Open (GW tournament/TOs) have supposedly ruled for that tournament only that you can multiple overwatch in a single phase (but not overwatch once in the move phase and once in the charge phase) with abilities/strats like the TS ritual.

Likely hints at what be in the first FAQ regarding this.

Thanks for the advice chaps.
Having mulled it over, I'll probably drop the Knight. I would love to try a Lancer against an enemy with a saving throw having been removed, but they are such a huge investment (again after two weeks of being cheap!!).
So Terminators with sorcerer, crystal, turn 1 get on something important.
Thinking Arhiman with 10 flamers in a land raider, move up ten, disembark 3, move 6 with the cabal points and threaten another middle point.
Mutilex seem too cheap to ignore, like a dreadnought for 100pts less?
Two sets of 5 bolters after you guys correctly suggested backfield control.
Include Magnus for obvious reasons, move him to give support to the Terminators with the 1cp pyschic weapons getting buffed.
It feels like a fairly aggressive and fast list, what would you change or spend the last 170pts on?

So let me get this straight.. I believe it's possible to activate the 'echo's from the warp' ritual on Magus at the start of the enemies shooting phase. I also activate the
'weaver of fates' ritual with another psyker and do this again with another psyker with the ' lord of forbidden lore' enhancement. So when the enemy starts shooting at magus with anti-tank weapons I could reroll 2 inv.saves and use the ' destined by fate' stratagem twice to reduce the damage to 0. In combination with his -1 damage thats a nice way to make him survive a lot of shooting turn one. Apart from the cabalistic points it only cost 1 CP, so can be done turn 1, when the enemy get's to start first.

Yeah. Costs you CP and 10 cabal points but correct.

You don't try to kill Magnus with full defence mode except with spam of mortals or dam1's.

Played against Custodies on Sunday. Ended up winning but it was close. They are really tough to take down, basically saving on a 4 against every kind of attack at the worst. I can see why they are a top army.

My list was as follows
Ahriman
10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Sorcerer
5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
Term Sorcerer
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with flamers
DP with wings
Magnus


Some thoughts on the units:
Ahriman + flamers - This was the first game where I really felt the loss of the assault weapon on the flamers. After they took out a small 5 man squad, they then were pretty out of position and spent the rest of the game moving back into position, which they helped out in the final turn. This is also the first game where I did not use Twist of Fate on their targets (Magnus was using it), and they still worked really well even against Custodies. I think I still like using a transport for them to get them in position, or making sure they are in the middle as opposed to a flank if walking.

Sorcerer + 5 x Rubrics bolters and reaper - This was the first game I was a bit underwhelmed by these guys. But I think that was partly because they spent a lot of time moving around to objectives, Custodies don't have a lot of long range firepower so the 18' shoot reduction is kind of meha in this matchup, and the small amount of fighting they did do was against Custodies terminators, which are bonkers. I am thinking of only taking one of these units, maybe a larger one, and then some Tgors to hold the back objective as a cheaper alternative.

Terminators - I broke up the terminators into three units of 5. One had the crystal with a leader and the other two were just normal. While the 10 man is more efficient, I like the flexibility of 3 five man. Turn one the first unit jumped to the center and took an objective effectively scoring me 10 points of primary for two turns, and two secondaries. Considering I only won by 6 that was huge. The other two units came out of deep strike, which was great because I put them exactly where they were needed and again scored me some points. I think I am going to stick with the 3 x 5.

DP with Wings - I still thing this guy is an underrated gem. The ability to move around the battlefield is clutch. In this game my opponent went first and after the end of his turn I used the ability to put the DP in the back corner threatening his home objective. He had to turn around a big powerful squad lead by trajon to deal with it, which ultimately did, but it put trajon's squad out of position for essentially the remainder of the game. He also hits pretty good, and is reasonably tough, surviving Trajon and his squad attacks with the help of 0 damage strat, to fall back and make them move even further away from the fight.

Magnus - holy crap is this guy awesome. He is probably like 40 points too cheap. the Custodies player was forced to use his 2CP -1 damage strat every turn against Magnus' shooting, and while it did mitigate quite a bit of damage, Magnus still put out the hurt. Especially using twist of fate on his target which is not as great against Custodies, but still helped out a ton. He is also really hard to take down, although the Custodies player did not have a lot of AT shooting. He was finally felled when he wiffed on his CC attack (rolled 5 ones to hit) and then the character in the squad he was facing got lucky rolling 4 6's for Devastating Wounds (3 dam each) and was able to finish Magnus (he had lost a few wounds earlier). Overall very worth it.


I am thinking of bring a unit of 6 flamers of Tzeentch allies for my next game. Same weapon stats as the rubrics, but they have built in deep strike, and will still benefit from Twist of Fate. Hope this was helpful







Automatically Appended Next Post:

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks for the advice chaps.
Having mulled it over, I'll probably drop the Knight. I would love to try a Lancer against an enemy with a saving throw having been removed, but they are such a huge investment (again after two weeks of being cheap!!).
So Terminators with sorcerer, crystal, turn 1 get on something important.
Thinking Arhiman with 10 flamers in a land raider, move up ten, disembark 3, move 6 with the cabal points and threaten another middle point.
Mutilex seem too cheap to ignore, like a dreadnought for 100pts less?
Two sets of 5 bolters after you guys correctly suggested backfield control.
Include Magnus for obvious reasons, move him to give support to the Terminators with the 1cp pyschic weapons getting buffed.
It feels like a fairly aggressive and fast list, what would you change or spend the last 170pts on?

for the last 170 I would think about cheap chaff to hold the backfield, or maybe flamer of tzeentch to deep strike flame attack.

Really interesting write-up there. I did look at flamers actually, do they still get to deep strike closer than 9 inch like they used to?

KirvesUK wrote:
Really interesting write-up there. I did look at flamers actually, do they still get to deep strike closer than 9 inch like they used to?

They can in the daemon detachment I believe but not as allied

Has anyone here had any success allying in daemons? I'm currently putting together a list with a Lord of Change, Changecaster, and unit of Pink Horrors.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Has anyone here had any success allying in daemons? I'm currently putting together a list with a Lord of Change, Changecaster, and unit of Pink Horrors.

Lord of change is great, changecaster is kinda unplayable (as are all our heralds really) and pinks can be decent backfield screener, but i'd rather bring blues for the infiltrator utility

Oh and Changeling is almost an autotake IMO (if youre gonna soup that is)

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Has anyone here had any success allying in daemons? I'm currently putting together a list with a Lord of Change, Changecaster, and unit of Pink Horrors.

Kairos + changeling is great utility

I've been trying an aggressive addition with changeling and 2 squads of 3 flamers with attached Exalted's. Neat little package for 345points that gives changeling(amazing! Always take) and quite a bit of mobility/antichaffe with flamers and 6 pseudo Las cannons on the exalteds. There is enough room for another unit of 3 flamers + Exalted I might actually add in or some horrors for obj camping, I've been liking it so far.

Well. First go at desolators and silly amount of firepower Even terminators were being melted by the firepower.

Though it wasn't so much those than 12" deep strike bubble prevention from infiltrators that cost me. Might have been better off putting less stuff and just ram more threats at once.

Really miss the teleport spell.

Sorcerer lord in terminator armour made terminators surprisingly good overwatch unit as every hit was also automatic wound.

If we have deep strike terminators and a unit with a crystal, do people really rate the output of 3 flamers and an exalted jumping in over, say, a maulerfiend output?

My list is
Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Flamers
Exalted + 10 Flamers (with LoFL)
Sorcerer + 5 Flamers (with Crystal)
Sorcerer + 5 Flamers (with Vortex)
Termie + 10 Termies (2 cannons and 2 missiles)
Changeling

I nearly won against tripe Forgefiends, but I hadn't seen it before so was unprepared for the insane damage that list puts out, plus a follow-up punch of possessed that gave Magnus enough mortals to kill him.

My main issue that I'm trying to figure out is deployment positioning, specifically with Ahriman. Turn off saves + autohit + wound on 5+ means his unit will delete what it points at. I'm trying to predict the battlefield and put Ahriman into the thickest flank, with the Sorcerer squad on the lighter flank so as to avoid the enemy's big guns. The Sorcerer's Sustained 3 with 2d6 shots at S6 D2 does a lot of work!

The 2nd Sorcerer is for a bit of backfield play, where I can kick a small objective holder squad off the enemy stronghold, and make Engage and BEL easier to achieve.

I've played 10 games of 10e so far, lost the above-mentioned CSM match as well as my 1st game of 10e to Votann (but I'm sure I'll do better in the rematch).
So far I've beat SM, Necrons, Chaos Knights, SM, SM, Guard, World Eaters, and Sisters.

Missions are sometimes wacky, but I think the amount of firepower that flamers bring makes the book very strong. I also think that the limited 12" range of flamers isn't that bad. Even when I'm out of range, there's a good chance I will want to do a mission/secondary action, so I'm not giving up all that much because I'm too far away from a target anyhow.

so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on it's right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit form its cabal point regen ability?

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on it's right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit form its cabal point regen ability?

I have two LC/ML Dreadnoughts (the actual forgeworld TS ones as well) and their firepower is very underwhelming. The twin-linked is not as good as an extra shot but a long stretch. I would use the hellburte with a the LC or MM and a CC weapon if I were to use one built from scratch. For AT in my opinion you are better off with mutilith, or even a predator in my opinion. We still struggle with heavy armor in my opinion, but Magnus and Ahriman +flamers can do a lot of damage to a vehicle with twist of fate. Also a soulgrinder ally might not be a bad choice

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on its right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit from its cabal point regen ability?

I started testing out 2 wardog stalkers for some extra firepower in my list, for 135pts each I feel like they are really valuable

Drdotts wrote:

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, im thinking of adding some more anti-tank firepower to my army as i can no longer rely on mortal wound spam to deal with vehicles, and im looking at a hellbrute as reasonably cheap option. Im planning to stick lascannons on its right side, but im not sure about the left arm. Do i stick missles on it for pure ranged firepower, or a fist so it can still get up close if needed and i'm more likely to benefit from its cabal point regen ability?

I started testing out 2 wardog stalkers for some extra firepower in my list, for 135pts each I feel like they are really valuable

I'am going to test the following list.

Ahriman with 10 rubric marines (bolters)
Ex sorcerer (U.Crystal) with 10 rubric marines with warp flamers
Terminator sorcerer (Lord of the forbidden lore) with 10 terminators

Magnus
3x vortex beasts

I like the beasts with magnus combination. The enemy cannot ignore magnus but needs a lot of anti-MC shooting to take him down. Meanwhile the vortex beast keep shooting beam attacks. I probably need to park a single vortex beast on the home objective, and that's kind of expensive but not easy to remove when magnus and two other vortex beasts are moving closer to the enemy.

I think if you go with vehicles or MC you need to bring more or simply none.

Hi chaps.i played Necrons tonight and got pummeled on points. Called it at the end of turn 3. I had a good chance of smashing most of the remaining Necrons, Magnus and Vortex beast untouched, but no way of catching the point deficit.

I ran;
2 X 5 Rubrics holding objectives
Magnus
1 X 10 terminators with attached Sorcerer (crystal)
Vortex beast
10 flamers in a land raider with Ahriman
War dog Moirax with conversion beams

Thoughts:
Flamers got overwatched leaving the land raider turn1. Lost 6. Even with what was left, I could see the potential with Ahriman attached. Keep.

Land raider itself. Not sure. Got smashed down to lowest bracket turn 1 and didn't really affect the game. Swap for a Rhino?

Rubrics. Held objectives, not much to say otherwise.

Magnus. Buffed the terminators turn 1, then got separated from them. Didn't even get scratched. Did he get his points back? If we played more than 3 turns, absolutely.

War dog - great shooting, felt bad it didn't give cabal points, but was pretty solid.

Vortex beast. Too cheap at 145 pts, can't see it lasting at that price. Nice to be a threat in two phases, we just got him stuck at the back dealing with a Necron unit that teleported. Probably needed chucking up the board.

Was the 125pt sorcerer in the terminator unit worth it? He carried the crystal and have rerolls on an enemy unit. Not entirely convinced though.

If I drop the land raider I can get a Rhino and another beast. Would I miss the anti tank lascannons. Probably not if I have a additional beast.

Although I'm familiar with Necrons, it was so very hard to fight through 3 blocks of 20 warriors. They really put a lot of models back on the table each turn. Big damage is fairly common on their units and extra saves, feel no pains, Invulnerables make even our firepower much less effective.

I think Thousand Sons are really quite interesting to use in tenth, compared to other armies that seem a bit point'n'click. I've not learnt them particularly well yet, but I'm assuming I should be able to beat Necrons at some point soon

Cheers for reading.

Previous post, thanks for the review I agree with your assessments.

So, I had a 4000 point team battle on Saturday, with TS and Chaos Knights v two IG armies. The IG had six eathshakers (three guns and three basilisks), 3 sentinels , some horses, 5 Russ tanks, a ton of mortars and heavy weapon teams, and lots of 20 man bricks of infantry, two krieg ones arriving with the drills.

My knight ally had two big knights (desacrator and abhorrant) 4 dogs, and then some daemon allies in a LoC and Blood crushers (he actually borrowed those 2 from me)

My list was as follows
Ahriman
10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper
Sorcerer
10 x Rubrics bolters and reaper
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with all the stuff
5 x SoT with flamers
DP with wings
10 x Tzgors
Magnus
and 6 flamers of tzeentch.

Our strategy was to put pressure on the guard with the big units, then bring in the terminators and flamers from deepstrike. They went first. The first turn we took a pounding from all the artillery with the sentinels support and all the shooting. Turn one we lost the blood crushers, one war dog, and the Tzgors in the back. We moved into position turn one, didn't do much damage, only killing one earthshaker, the sentinels and some infantry. Turn two shooting was pretty rough as well, we lost the Knight Abhorant, and two war dogs and I lost most of Ahriman's squad. However we were in position to strike on our turn two and with the terminators deep strike and the flamers, plus shooting/charges from Magnus, the Knight Desecrator, the daemon prince, and LoC did massive damage and tied up most of their units. We did not score our first two turns, but starting turn 3 we were in a dominant position and maxed primary and scored a bunch of secondaries. Game called at top of 5 when they had nothing but a few out of position infantry units left. We still had full health Magnus, badly wounded knight, most terminators, flamers, full health LoC and wounded DP left. Plus my Rubrics which sat and did nothing.

Thoughts on opponents: I saw on Auspex tactics that Guard don't have an above 50% win rate. I find this hard to digest as their indirect fire is crazy. You basically can't start infantry on the board. And with the sentinels the artillery is really kill-y. Maybe Eldar, GSC, Imperial Knights and Custodies are that good. The lethal hits on indirect fire is a bit much to be honest. Also playing against that much indirect fire is not really engaging as they just shoot us to death until we can engage their lines and wipe them out if we have anything left. They guy who brought all the artillery is Krieg theme, and played something similar in 9th as he want's to represent a Krieg siege force, so it is not like he was power gaming. But still the indirect is not a lot of fun.

Thoughts on Allies: The Chaos Knights battle shock rules are very sub-par. I don't think they mattered once during the game. the big Knights are really tough to take down, and that is without the FnP the Imperial's get. The LoC did not do much but hold one flank, and its shooting was good, but you need to use the hazardous version every time. The Bloodcrushers got wiped turn 1, so there is that. However they did soak up 5 of the eathshakers on turn 1 so they earned their points that way.

Thoughts on my list:

Ahriman w/ 10 x Rubrics w/ flamers and one soul reaper: Solid as always, however, I will say if you foot them, they are very vulnerable to indirect fire. In an all comers list where you could face IG, Eldar, Tau, or SM with indirect you will probably need to put them in a transport or even reserve them to come in on a flank (but either way you lost 4 Cabal turn one). It sucks because armies without indirect the the transport is unnecessary as they can advance up in cover. Tough call.

Sorcerer w/ 10 x Rubrics bolters and reaper- I wanted to try to put a 10 man down but for the second game in a row they sat back, enjoyed not being able to be targeted, and they did not really do anything. And the two times they did get in range, the extra bolter shots are not worth 95 points. I would only run these guys in 5s.

5 x SoT with all the stuff, squads- So this is the first game I did not bring the terminator sorcerer with the crystal leading one of them. I actually think it may be possible to get away with not using that. I put all three in deepstrike and having three units deepstrike in on turn 2 was difficult for the opponents to deal with (I actually Rapid Ingress one of them, which took shooting, but was in a better position to charge). I think when I play TS again I am going to try more games without the terminator sorcerer.

DP with wings- As I have stated many times, I love this guy. Turn 1 he was able to teleport to the far right flank, and even after failing the 9 inch charge, he was blocked well from their AT (which did need to shoot the Knights) and is tough enough that the eathshakers did not even try to hit him. All the small arms bounced right off. He then moved into their lines, and with d4 from the enhancement, crushed the right flank killing a russ, a baslisk, and a earthshaker platform, finally finishing up killing a bunch of guardsmen. I really think there is a place for him in most lists as the ability to teleport on turn one is massive. And I have yet to get the 9 inch charge, which if you get lucky will make him a real powerhouse.

10 x Tzgors- they seem to squishy for 65 points. This game was always going to be rough on them with all the indirect, but still they went down fast.

Magnus- Ok so he is definetly 20-30 points to cheap. This game they did not even hurt him. What was really clutch in this game was using the move twice on him turn one so he was like 3" away from their line. His shooting is really good if you use twist of fate as well. With guard not able to fight him in CC, putting him in their line that early was probably the game winning move. And he cuts through anything that does not reduce damage. His sweep attack is good at clearing hoards of guardsmen as well. If you want competitive, he is probably a must take at this point.

6 flamers of tzeentch- I like these guys a lot. Only 130 for 6 and they have natural deepstrike. I think they are an excellent alternative to a second squad of flamer rubrics. Also they are three wounds, which really made a difference against the artillery being d2.

This will probably be my last report type post for TS. I just got my dark commune for CSM and I am looking forward to playing CSM for a bit, then probably Eldar for a while. If I play anymore TS games I will post them. I certainly hope others will as well as I enjoy reading those.

I've now played a couple of games against Sisters with that smaller list and won both

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [115pts, 3 Cabal Points]: Warlord

Infernal Master [95pts, 2 Cabal Points]: Umbralefic Crystal

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince [225pts, 2 Cabal Points]: Arcane Vortex

Rubric Marines [190pts, 1 Cabal Points]

. Aspiring Sorcerer: Warpflame pistol
. Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon
. 8x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 8x Close combat weapon, 8x Warpflamer

Scarab Occult Terminators [205pts, 1 Cabal Points]: Hellfyre missile rack

. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Inferno combi-bolter
. 3x Scarab Occult Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. Scarab Occult Terminator w/ soulreaper cannon, Prosperine khopesh

Thousand Sons Land Raider [250pts]: Havoc launcher, Inferno combi-weapon

++ Total: [1,080pts, 9 Cabal Points] ++

Initial thoughts:

1) Having the Infernal Master with Crystal lead the Rubrics allows them to teleport onto an objective turn 1 and then control the centre of the board.

2) The Scarabs are really tanky (and seen as quite a threat) when supported by the DP.

3) I still need to work out how to reliably get the DP into melee without getting him killed first.

4) I also need to get better at positioning Ahriman so he can be where he needs to be without getting shot off the board.

For a higher points game I think I'll ally a Chaos Knight Desecrator and see how that pans out.

 xeen wrote:

DP with wings- As I have stated many times, I love this guy. Turn 1 he was able to teleport to the far right flank, and even after failing the 9 inch charge, he was blocked well from their AT (which did need to shoot the Knights) and is tough enough that the eathshakers did not even try to hit him. All the small arms bounced right off. He then moved into their lines, and with d4 from the enhancement, crushed the right flank killing a russ, a baslisk, and a earthshaker platform, finally finishing up killing a bunch of guardsmen. I really think there is a place for him in most lists as the ability to teleport on turn one is massive. And I have yet to get the 9 inch charge, which if you get lucky will make him a real powerhouse.

I honestly don't see how, even with the enhancement, he's killing that much stuff. You said he didn't get a charge T1, so that means he's in combat at the top of T2. So let's give the benefit of the doubt and say you are in combat for 2 rounds, yours and the enemy's
DP Strike profile is A6 WS2+ S9 AP-2 D4

A Leman Russ is T11 W13 Sv2+
Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 3.33 times, Russ fails 1.67 save, you do 4 or 8 dmg, which isn't enough to kill the Russ. Even if you get a DevWounds in there, for a total 8 or 12 dmg, that's still not enough to kill the Russ. You had to get really REALLY unstatistically lucky to roll this well.

A Basilisk is T9 W11 Sv3+
Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 5 times, Basilisk fails 3.33 saves, you do 12dmg. So the DP can reliably kill a light vehicle over 2 rounds of combat, but again, this is just the average, so expect for you to wound less sometimes or for the enemy to make more 5+ saves.

Not sure what an Earthshaker Platform is, but I assume it's the same as a Basilisk (the name of the gun on the Basilisk is earthshaker?)
See above. I'd say it's lucky to kill two light vehicles over the course of 4 rounds of combat.

I don't think it will be nearly as good for other people, and congratulations on having Tzeentch bless your dice rolls, I guess!

Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?

Has anyone tried out an allied soul grinder? It seems very durable and like it could be pretty good anti tank and a distraction for Magnus

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 xeen wrote:

DP with wings- As I have stated many times, I love this guy. Turn 1 he was able to teleport to the far right flank, and even after failing the 9 inch charge, he was blocked well from their AT (which did need to shoot the Knights) and is tough enough that the eathshakers did not even try to hit him. All the small arms bounced right off. He then moved into their lines, and with d4 from the enhancement, crushed the right flank killing a russ, a baslisk, and a earthshaker platform, finally finishing up killing a bunch of guardsmen. I really think there is a place for him in most lists as the ability to teleport on turn one is massive. And I have yet to get the 9 inch charge, which if you get lucky will make him a real powerhouse.

I honestly don't see how, even with the enhancement, he's killing that much stuff. You said he didn't get a charge T1, so that means he's in combat at the top of T2. So let's give the benefit of the doubt and say you are in combat for 2 rounds, yours and the enemy's
DP Strike profile is A6 WS2+ S9 AP-2 D4

A Leman Russ is T11 W13 Sv2+
Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 3.33 times, Russ fails 1.67 save, you do 4 or 8 dmg, which isn't enough to kill the Russ. Even if you get a DevWounds in there, for a total 8 or 12 dmg, that's still not enough to kill the Russ. You had to get really REALLY unstatistically lucky to roll this well.

A Basilisk is T9 W11 Sv3+
Hit 10 times (for 2 rounds of combat), wound 5 times, Basilisk fails 3.33 saves, you do 12dmg. So the DP can reliably kill a light vehicle over 2 rounds of combat, but again, this is just the average, so expect for you to wound less sometimes or for the enemy to make more 5+ saves.

Not sure what an Earthshaker Platform is, but I assume it's the same as a Basilisk (the name of the gun on the Basilisk is earthshaker?)
See above. I'd say it's lucky to kill two light vehicles over the course of 4 rounds of combat.

I don't think it will be nearly as good for other people, and congratulations on having Tzeentch bless your dice rolls, I guess!

Well no that was though the whole game. He was in combat turn 2, 3, and 4. An earthshaker plateform is just the gun, it has 6 wounds so is not nearly as durable. Also he had the enhancement with to make is attacks d4, so it doesn't take much to destroy a basilisk or LR. Also, as in every game, some of the units had been hurt already. Yea there probably were some good rolls, but that is warhammer in general. Also math hammer is all well and good, but 2+ to his is pretty reliable. It may average out at 5 hits, but that would be over hundred of rolls. Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.

 xeen wrote:
Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.

Oh yes, I didn't even think about this one, that would be a great move into a Russ.
And my math did take into account multiple rounds of combat.
I'm also not quite sure that you're understanding averages. WS2+ with 6 attacks means that, EVERY TIME HE ATTACKS, he will drop one. Of course, this isn't perfectly accurate. Sometimes you're hit with everything and sometimes you'll miss with 3 in a single roll. For example, my Magnus with 7 attacks and wounding on 2s pretty much every single roll gets only 5 successful to wound rolls, which then the enemy gets to save against. That's pretty statistical. Rarely does my Magnus get 7 successful wound rolls from 7 attacks.

Still not sold on the idea that 200pts is purely distraction, especially since he's not all that survivable.

"every time". About 1time in 3 he doesn't.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 xeen wrote:
Also I may have removed the LR's save, don't quite remember, which also makes a huge difference. I still think it is a good choice, even for just the disruption of him being in the lines, probably less so without the d4.

Oh yes, I didn't even think about this one, that would be a great move into a Russ.
And my math did take into account multiple rounds of combat.
I'm also not quite sure that you're understanding averages. WS2+ with 6 attacks means that, EVERY TIME HE ATTACKS, he will drop one. Of course, this isn't perfectly accurate. Sometimes you're hit with everything and sometimes you'll miss with 3 in a single roll. For example, my Magnus with 7 attacks and wounding on 2s pretty much every single roll gets only 5 successful to wound rolls, which then the enemy gets to save against. That's pretty statistical. Rarely does my Magnus get 7 successful wound rolls from 7 attacks.

Still not sold on the idea that 200pts is purely distraction, especially since he's not all that survivable.

Yea, twist of fate helps a lot. Also I have had many games where 2+ hits with every attack, in every fight over the battle. I have also had Magnus wiff and roll a bunch of ones to hit and wound several times in a row. That was the point I was making, is that percentages will average out over time, but they are pretty meaningless to an individual game. Also let me be clear, I am not saying you want to build your list around this guy. You want to build your list around, Ahirman with flamers, Magnus, SoT and sorcerers with rubrics. He is really competing for you remainder points, against things like Forgefied, Tanks, etc. Also if you are going pure damage, you would just take a mutilith over him any day of the week. However, I think he can have a place in a list depending on your play style and other units brought. Sometimes his value is not even from doing damage. Take a look at my post for the game against Custodes. He didn't kill squat that game. However, his ability to be basically anywhere within 9" of the enemy every turn makes him really maneuverable. So in that game I put him in the back, threatening the home objective, and the Custode player had to move one of his better units back to engage with it, which basically took that unit out of the game due to positioning. Yea sometimes that won't work or won't matter all the time, and but sometimes it will. Also, unlike a lot of other support units, he brings 2 Cabal and can use Cabal abilities like doombolt or twist of fate. My main point is I wouldn't just write this guy off, like say the Dreadnoughts, which are very much just out competed with the Mutilith.

However he is certainly not a must take if going competitive, like Magnus.

 dreadblade wrote:
Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?

Anyone?

 dreadblade wrote:

 dreadblade wrote:
Quick question: Echoes from the Warp says "you can select this psyker's unit at the target of this stratagem". Does that mean a character psyker not attached to a unit can use it on themselves?

Anyone?

Barring an FAQ saying otherwise, I'd say yes. A Psyker not attached to a unit is still a unit in and of themself.

That was my take too (although not my opponent's).

I'd say yes as well. The psyker is his own unit, so by targeting "the psykers unit" you are targeting the psyker.

There are some rules that says "this Leaders bodyguard unit" or something similar, and if that had been the case then I'd say no.

Or "while leading unit".

Vote more for yes

so, i have a 1000 point game coming up next week vs chaos deamons. I know my opponent is planning to take a bloodthister. what sort of options and cunning ploys can i use to help counter it?

edit: no longer on mobile so i can actaully type out more now.

i'm expecting to face a mostly khornate deamon force of:

Bloodthrister
bloodmaster
10 bloodletters
10 hounds
6 bloodcrushers
a few nurglings to soak up some points.


my current list plan is mostly dictated by what i have, but it runs:

ahriman on disc
exalted sorcerer
Infernal Master
tzanngor shaman

2x5 rubrics with bolters+gatling
5 rubics with flamers+ gatling
5 scarabs (hellfire, plus either gatling or flamer)

10 tzanngor
3 enlightened.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, i have a 1000 point game coming up next week vs chaos deamons. I know my opponent is planning to take a bloodthister. what sort of options and cunning ploys can i use to help counter it?

edit: no longer on mobile so i can actaully type out more now.

i'm expecting to face a mostly khornate deamon force of:

Bloodthrister
bloodmaster
10 bloodletters
10 hounds
6 bloodcrushers
a few nurglings to soak up some points.


my current list plan is mostly dictated by what i have, but it runs:

ahriman on disc
exalted sorcerer
Infernal Master
tzanngor shaman

2x5 rubrics with bolters+gatling
5 rubics with flamers+ gatling
5 scarabs (hellfire, plus either gatling or flamer)

10 tzanngor
3 enlightened.

Bring more flamers if you can. They are a nightmare for CC armies, especially with Ahriman. I don't like the Infernal Master, I think a normal sorcerer or exhaled is better. Against daemons you don't really need to worry about twist of fate, so probably doombolt every turn.

Made a few tweaks to my list, and I think I'm fairly settled on what I'll be bringing.

Magnus
Ahriman + 10 Rubric Flamers
Sorcerer (Scrolls) + 5 Rubric Flamers
Master (Crystal) + 5 Rubric Flamers
Termie Sorcerer (Vortex) + 10 Terminators
Rhino (for Ahriman and friends)
Changeling
3x Flamers of Tzeentch
War Dog Huntsman

Tried out a Brigand + Huntsman, and found the Brigand too vulnerable to enemy shooting. I don't feel bad if the Huntsman doesn't shoot while it's creeping up and hiding behind terrain, but with the Brigand I want to get my money's worth! In addition, I think Ahriman's big unit REALLY needs a Rhino for protection and for movement. I just keep deploying him in an area that doesn't have a lot of action, so being able to mitigate that error will help me a lot.
I like the Master instead of a second Sorcerer because I want a unit to DS, which negates the Sorcerer's ability anyhow, and the Master gives me an extra Cabal Pt.

Played a game on Friday against a guy who claimed he hadn't lost a 10e game yet...and he's been playing as Death Guard. His list was:
3 PBCs
Unit of 3 Lawn Mowers (30 wounds??!?)
2 Predator Lascannons
Some sorta DG infantry character all by his lonesome
Double Cannon Knight (4D6 + 12 shots per turn!)
GUO
3 little Nurglings

Over the course of the game, Magnus killed the GUO, a Predator, and the wounded Knight.
Termies killed a PBC, did like 16 wounds on the Knight in shooting, and soaked a lot of fire. They also did about 25 wounds to the Lawn Mower unit, thanks to Psychic Bolters, Magnus aura, and No Armour Save. *pop*
The Huntsman managed to kill 2 PBCs over the game. Brigand did some wounds to a unit but died because it was exposed to the Knight.
It ended with me having lost Ahriman's bodyguards (but not him) and the Master's bodyguard (but not him). 92-25 my favour.
Highlight of the game was when the Knight shot at the Terminators in cover, giving me something like 25 wounds from the Cannons...and I failed 1. Then the stubber shot at them and I failed 4 out of 5 saves! Opponent was miffed I hadn't rolled those in the other order.


In other news, I always just keep my army in DevWounds for the entire game. Less to keep track of, and sprinklings of mortal wounds seems pretty good. I've calculated that Ahriman has a 70% chance to do at least 1 DevWound for 3dmg in the Fight Phase, and Magnus has a 97% chance on the Strike Profile for at least 1, while he's gonna do about 2 in the sweep.

Hey all.
How do you guys play in a 1000pts?
I played against castodes and got a** kicked.
How do you build ur lists for lower point levels?

Lorex wrote:
Hey all.
How do you guys play in a 1000pts?
I played against castodes and got a** kicked.
How do you build ur lists for lower point levels?

Thousand sons is hard at 1000 as our Cabals don't scale down to well. Just bring Magnus and you will be fine. Lol. I would say that the flamers and terminators are a must and at 1000 you can't really bring any units that don't generate Cabal points.

What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?

Twist of Fate + Psychic S5 AP1 Bolters with full rerolls.
Lascannons (Land Raider, Predator, Helbrute).
Helfyre Missiles / Ectoplasma (against T10 or lower pref.)
Vindicators.
Maulerfiend / Helbrute in melee.
Magnus in general.

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
What are good anti tank choice besides the never available mutalith?

Twist of Fate + Psychic S5 AP1 Bolters with full rerolls.
Lascannons (Land Raider, Predator, Helbrute).
Helfyre Missiles / Ectoplasma (against T10 or lower pref.)
Vindicators.
Maulerfiend / Helbrute in melee.
Magnus in general.

I'll second the psychic Termie bolters. Next to Magnus (and assuming you have a couple Soulreapers and a Character and rerolls), that's 48 shots in double-tap, 46 hits (8 of them lethal), 29ish wounds against T10+ (~4 of those are mortals), and a few missiles. And all of those are sorta mortals, unless the target has an invuln.
The other one is Ahriman with 10 flamers, get a free Twist and then wound on 5s with the tank getting no armour save. 35 hits on average, 14 wounds on average against T8+

 dreadblade wrote:
I've now played a couple of games against Sisters with that smaller list and won both

Ahriman on Disc of Tzeentch [115pts, 3 Cabal Points]: Warlord

Infernal Master [95pts, 2 Cabal Points]: Umbralefic Crystal

Thousand Sons Daemon Prince [225pts, 2 Cabal Points]: Arcane Vortex

Rubric Marines [190pts, 1 Cabal Points]

. Aspiring Sorcerer: Warpflame pistol
. Rubric Marine w/ soulreaper cannon
. 8x Rubric Marine w/ warpflamer: 8x Close combat weapon, 8x Warpflamer

Scarab Occult Terminators [205pts, 1 Cabal Points]: Hellfyre missile rack

. Scarab Occult Sorcerer: Inferno combi-bolter
. 3x Scarab Occult Terminator: 3x Inferno combi-bolter, 3x Prosperine khopesh
. Scarab Occult Terminator w/ soulreaper cannon, Prosperine khopesh

Thousand Sons Land Raider [250pts]: Havoc launcher, Inferno combi-weapon

++ Total: [1,080pts, 9 Cabal Points] ++

Initial thoughts:

1) Having the Infernal Master with Crystal lead the Rubrics allows them to teleport onto an objective turn 1 and then control the centre of the board.

2) The Scarabs are really tanky (and seen as quite a threat) when supported by the DP.

3) I still need to work out how to reliably get the DP into melee without getting him killed first.

4) I also need to get better at positioning Ahriman so he can be where he needs to be without getting shot off the board.

For a higher points game I think I'll ally a Chaos Knight Desecrator and see how that pans out.

I use this list at 1,100pts. I think it would be better with a character who can lead the Scarabs though, and I've yet to see Ahriman and the DP earn their points. Having sad that, I have won 2 out of 2.

I just played an event and faced imperial knights 2 out of 3 games. It still feels like a miserable match up for thousand sons. Does anyone have any good tech against them?

Or does anyone have any fun combos to just try out while suffering against the meta lol. I’ve been considering cabal spam with a helbrute nearby to generate more cabals

Drdotts wrote:
I just played an event and faced imperial knights 2 out of 3 games. It still feels like a miserable match up for thousand sons. Does anyone have any good tech against them?

Or does anyone have any fun combos to just try out while suffering against the meta lol. I’ve been considering cabal spam with a helbrute nearby to generate more cabals

Magnus can kill a big boy per turn with shooting+melee. Both Magnus and the Termie block have a 2+ save in cover against one of the most popular builds, the double-cannon knight, so even though he's getting like 26 shots on average, you can probably get away with losing a single Termie or 3 wounds on Magnus.

Ignore armor on a big boy, blast it with Termie Psychic bolters, and follow up with Magnus for a dead Knight.

Use Ahriman's free strat in the fight phase to take out an Armiger. Assuming a few bodyguards died to shooting, you're still getting like 6-8 wound from the squad and then damage 3 attacks from Ahriman.

Bring an allied Changeling. He's great for many secondaries, as well as for holding your back objective if you move away.

My current Enhancements are Vortex on the Termie Sorcerer (it seems pretty good for his smite, and it also works well with his bolter and his melee), Scrolls on the backfield sorcerer (since he can't get shot he'll generate for longer), and Crystan on an Infernal Master (who yeets a min-flamer squad somewhere).

Thanks for the feedback, but please tell in what world Magnus only loses 3 wounds to 2 helverins, 2 warglaives, a crusader, warden and errant. We’re obviously playing different versions of the game.

Drdotts wrote:
Thanks for the feedback, but please tell in what world Magnus only loses 3 wounds to 2 helverins, 2 warglaives, a crusader, warden and errant. We’re obviously playing different versions of the game.

I don't know about Magnus only losing 3 wounds, but you can probably have him survive in general if you:

Always have Impossible Form active.

Turn a failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate.

Turn a second failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp.

Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore.

Re-roll a failed save with Weaver of Fates.

Re-roll a second failed save with a Command Re-roll.

(Re-roll a third failed save with Weaver of Fates + Echoes of the Warp if you didn't use EotW in combination with DbF above.)

(Re-roll a fourth failed save with Weaver of Fates + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore, if you didn't use EotW and LoFL in combination with DbF above.)

Of course, even all these tricks up Magnus' sleeve won't save him if your opponent rolls well / you roll poorly, but it should do the trick.

Edit: Did some quick math on the knight-list you mention.

2 Helverins will on average do 8,88 D2 (A.Autocannons) wounds before saves, their Anti-Fly 2+ is really dangerous. Luckily you can potentially hide from them.

2 Warglavies will on average do 1,78 D6 -1 (Thermal Spear) wounds before saves.

1 Errant will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 1,78 D6 -1 (Thermal Cannon) wounds before saves.

1 Warden will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 4 D1 (Gatling) wounds before saves.

1 Crusader will on average do 1,88 D1 (Icarus AC) wounds + 4 D1 (Gatling) + 2,89 D2 (R-F BC) wounds before saves.

Math isn't 100%, but you get the gist of it.
I didn't account to all the various small-arms guns (stuff with few shots that wound Magnus on 5+ and 6+) nor any potential rules that might come into effect like Aggressive Assault on the Errant, because these are not necessarily active.
This is also with the entire IK-list shooting at Magnus (outside Melta-range), which probably won't happen and if it does you're playing with way to little LoS-blocking terrain.
All 3 big knights also have Icarus Autocannons which your opponent might not necessarily field. The other 2 options (Ironstorm Missile Pod/Stormspear Rocket Pod) are inferior against Magnus specifically, so if he fields those, the maths improve in his favor.

All in all, you're looking at on average 13,64 D1 wounds (Icarus AC/Gatling), 11,77 D2* wounds (A. Autocannons/R-F Battlecannons) and 3,56 D6 -1 wounds (Thermal Spears/Cannons) before saves.
(*Majority of these come from the 2 Armiger Helverins. Watch out for those.)

After saves you're looking at 6,81 D1, 5,88 D2 and 1,78 D6 -1 wounds, resulting in on average 23,02 wounds (14,14 if you hide from/kill the Helverins).
Turn some of those into Damage 0, add some re-rolls (and better yet, hide from the Helverins) and Magnus should have no problems surving.

Thank you I really appreciate the breakdown on his survival, I will try those things next time. But it’s really hard to pull those off turn one when I don’t have cabal points because I’m going second.

Also helverins are base damage 3 and he had them at damage 4 with a strat. It was pretty painful. And due to Magnus wing tips I can’t hide him behind any terrain successfully

Drdotts wrote:
Thank you I really appreciate the breakdown on his survival, I will try those things next time. But it’s really hard to pull those off turn one when I don’t have cabal points because I’m going second.

Also helverins are base damage 3 and he had them at damage 4 with a strat. It was pretty painful. And due to Magnus wing tips I can’t hide him behind any terrain successfully

Yeah not going first hurts since you can't do any rituals.
Magnus can still get his Impossible Form of however, (for that crucial -1 damage taken, hence why Helverins become D2), since that activates at the start of the battle round.

Helverins can only become Damage 4 from Squire's Duty if the Knight-army is Honoured, which they are extremely unlikely to be the first turn(s) of the game.

Not being able to hide Magnus ... yeah, not much you can do there I suppose.
You *should* still play with terrain high (and wide) enough to hide him from Helverins. Remember that terrain rules are still a bit abstract and block all LoS if it's a certain height, and Helverins (and Magnus) aren't Towering.

Terrain height irrelevant for magnus. Ruin block los regardless of height. It's width that is issue due to wings.

Of course if you hide slow to go around ruin.

Btw " Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore"

This doesn't work for magnus. Enchantment can't be given to magnus and free stratagem applies only to enchantment owner.

My Magnus rarely takes damage on the first turn, and even into T2 I am still hiding him.
Terrain is definitely a big factor in how games pan out. If you're using the player-placed terrain minigame before deployment, try to minimize lanes of fire so that no one downtown can take a potshot at your Termies or Magnus. Stay outside ruins until you have the shot you want to take.
My Magnus might not connect with anything until T3 sometimes, he just hangs back and buffs the Termies and provides a serious deterrent.
This might seem like a waste of points but it's better that he does heavy lifting later in the game than get one good shooting phase and then die in return.

tneva82 wrote:

Btw " Turn a third failed save into Damage 0 with Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp + Lord of Forbidden Lore"

This doesn't work for magnus. Enchantment can't be given to magnus and free stratagem applies only to enchantment owner.

Ahh you're right.

Can still be used to give him an additional (potentially) third re-roll on a failed save though, so I guess 2 attacks turned to D0 and 3 re-rolls it is:

Destined by Fate on Magnus.
Destined by Fate + Echoes of the Warp on Magnus.
Weaver of Fates on Magnus / on a TS psyker within 18" of Magnus.
Command Reroll on Magnus.
Weaver of Fates + Lord of Forbidden Lore on a TS psyker within 18" of Magnus.

so, second game with tsons this edition, vs guard, at 1k agian.

my force was a slight tweak to my last list (which is in this thread, a while back)

Ahriman on disk (warlord)
Exalted sorcerer (scrolls)
shaman (vortex)

10 bolter rubrics with soulreaper (exalted attached)
5 bolter rubrics with soulreaper
5 flamer rubics with soulreaper (ahriman attached)
10 tzaangor

5 scarabs with soulreaper and hellfire missiles

3 enlightened with bows (shaman attached)



my opponent ran:

Lord Solar
command squad
commissar

20 infantry (attached command squad and lord solar)
20 infantry (attached commisar)
10 krieg
leman russ with punisher Gatling cannon
leman russ vanquisher.
vindicaire assassin.

board had a large city wall section down the middle that split the midboard into left and right sides, but otherwise mostly just low cover.


i won the roll off for starting, raced the enlightened up to a firing position where they almost killed the command squad captain on turn one, plus the shamans mutating orb with BLAST had fun with a 26 man unit. the big bolter unit and the flamers moved up one flank, and did a number on the commissars squad, while the tzanngor moved up the other flank, and the small bolters sat on the home objective. his turn one, he managed with great expenditure to kill the enlightened (but NOT the shamen) and a few tzaangor, but genneraly bounced.

My turn two, i used twist of fate on his vanquisher, and in combination with lethal hits on the big bolter squad, and all three characters throwing their spells at it, was able to delete that tank and reduce the commisars squad to just the commissar. the tzanngor charged the krieg but failed to kill them all. hes turn two, he brought the commisars squad back on via strategem, this time on the tzanngor flank to push towards my home objective, succeeded in killing the shaman, and failed to kill the tzanngor in melee.

my third turn, i was able to bring my big bolter block into LOS of his home objective (being held by the remains of the lord solar's squad), and remove everyone but the lord solar himself, pushing him off that objective at the start of his turn (the lord solar being too far to away to score). my termies came out of deep strike, twist of fate'd the other russ, and managed a 10" charge to get into melee, where they mauled but did not kill it. his turn 3, he brought back the lord solars former squad to threaten the left side point (and lost half the squad to flamer overwatch). he also killed the small bolter squad on my home objective. the termies were able to kill the Russ in his fight phase as well

turn 4 saw the lord solar die to massed bolters, and the leman russ to kopesh slashes. in his turn 4, he got a squad on my back objective, and he shot the flamer rubircs down (and wounded ahriman), then he managed to kill the tzanngor (finallly!), and managed to claim the point they were contesting with the ever-regenerating Krieg squad.

my turn 5, ahriman died to overwatch trying to position himself to attack my home objective, and i killed the Vindicare which had managed to only kill the shamen all game. we called it their his turn 5 scoring woudl leave him trailing 20 to my 25, so he conceded.

overall, happy with how the game went. the attrition units lasted much longer than expected, the big bolter squad never even lost a man thanks to the 4++, but did a lot of hard work. the termies basically held one flank for half a game, and twist of fate combined with strat-enabled leathal hits really hit his tanks hard. the guards ability to regenerate their chaff was annoying, but i was able to keep them mostly pruned while still dealing with his tanks, plus the 2CP strat ate up almost all his CP. this was my first time running the enlightened, and i'm happy enough with their performance for a 45 point unit. They were only one dice roll away form killing the platoon commander on turn one, so it could easily have happened, especially if d run a 6 man squad.

Wow we got SMASHED! Not as bad as Eldar, but pretty close. Basically everything went up. I mean Magnus, Mutilith, Ahriman, yea I can see, but Rubrics up 10 points for 5? That seems like it is a bit much. I guess we will see

The list I'd been running went up about 250pts, so I've got two new ones. Anyone have any thoughts about these?

No Termies

This list eschews the typical Terminator death block for a Rubric block that, while it doesn't have quite as much firepower or durability, is literally half the points. Stick an Infernal Master with Crystal to lead these guys, and they can deploy waaay back to gain some safety and then teleport forward T1 to get the drop on a scary target. If you have the armor turned off your target, then maybe select Lethal Hits for this round, otherwise stay in DevWounds as usual.
Since we can't double-dip into the ignore damage strat anymore, maybe we spend those sorcery points on the reroll everything strat instead so that both Magnus and this unit get it!
Stand next to Magnus, buff the bolters, and you're getting 20 shots hitting on 2s (from Magnus), Sustained 1 (from Master), Lethal (from Army). That's roughly 22 hits (get three 1s and convert two of them with the reroll and also get three 6s), +1 to wound means we're wounding T6-9 on 4s and T10+ on 5s. Add in the Master's 2d6 S7 shots, for another roughly 5 and I'd say that's a solid 18 wounds into a tough target from this unit. If you did the average (5) from Doombolt at the start, then you've done 23 wounds on a Knight. If you're below average, finish it with the Terminator Sorcerer, Magnus, or the Mutalith, maybe.

Still Termies

This one has fewer units, but still counts on the Occult Block to smash face. It's very similar to the list I had been running, so I want to try out the first one and see if Rubrics are decent performers. The combi-bolters as opposed to inferno bolters are just so much better, with over twice as many shots (but for twice the points). 10 Terminators with cannons/missiles and a leader, in RF range, will get 36 bolter shots, 12 cannon shots, and 4 missile shots. Next to Magnus, buffed, that's a lot of hits on 2s and wounds on 5s, as well as lethal and sustained and even some damage 3.
If we do the same setup as the above Rubrics... 35 bolter hits, 27 wounds. Then 8 hits and 1-2 DWs from the cannons, then 3 hits and 1-2 wounds from the missiles, THEN 3 hits and 6 MWs from the Termie Sorcerer's smite. YIKES!

Any suggestions on how to effectively use a DP (without wings)? So far, because a DP can't lead a unit, I'm finding it gets blown off the board before it can ever get into melee or anywhere useful.

 dreadblade wrote:
Any suggestions on how to effectively use a DP (without wings)? So far, because a DP can't lead a unit, I'm finding it gets blown off the board before it can ever get into melee or anywhere useful.

I got a tournament (1500P) coming up and i'am bringing the following:

Magnus
Daemon Prince (Um. crystal)
Daemon prince with wings (lore)
Daemon prince with wings
Daemon prince with wings

Changeling
3 horrors
3 horrors

I teleport the walking daemon prince mid field and move magnus 28 inch (temporal surge) within 6 inch so that he got stealth. Winged daemon prince all go up in the air after the oppponent's turn and also drop within 6 inch or go for the objectives. The winged daemon prince with lore could fly forward and make sure it's within 18 inch from magnus so that magnus could do another weaver of fate reroll.

This is not a tournament winning list but it looks like fun. At 1500 points I hope that magnus is to much to handle with stealth, ignore damage stratagem and twist of fate. Or magnus got shot down first turn and I can pack it in.

In this setup, stealth is really nice. against Eldar shooting it can really make a difference. But in any other list I don't really see a use for the walking daemon prince.

Taking the crystal on the DP would be cool, except that I already use it on an Infernal Master who leads my flamer Rubric brick. I think that's a lot more useful to teleport into the objectives on turn 1 than the DP.

shogun wrote:

 dreadblade wrote:
Any suggestions on how to effectively use a DP (without wings)? So far, because a DP can't lead a unit, I'm finding it gets blown off the board before it can ever get into melee or anywhere useful.

I got a tournament (1500P) coming up and i'am bringing the following:

Magnus
Daemon Prince (Um. crystal)
Daemon prince with wings (lore)
Daemon prince with wings
Daemon prince with wings

Changeling
3 horrors
3 horrors

I teleport the walking daemon prince mid field and move magnus 28 inch (temporal surge) within 6 inch so that he got stealth. Winged daemon prince all go up in the air after the oppponent's turn and also drop within 6 inch or go for the objectives. The winged daemon prince with lore could fly forward and make sure it's within 18 inch from magnus so that magnus could do another weaver of fate reroll.

This is not a tournament winning list but it looks like fun. At 1500 points I hope that magnus is to much to handle with stealth, ignore damage stratagem and twist of fate. Or magnus got shot down first turn and I can pack it in.

In this setup, stealth is really nice. against Eldar shooting it can really make a difference. But in any other list I don't really see a use for the walking daemon prince.

I like that list just for the sheer zaniness of it. Kind of like Thousand Sons Knights with the DPs as wardogs and Magunus as your big one. LOL

As to the original question, the best way to use a daemon prince with wings I have found is to definitely hide turn 1. Then use the teleport to put him on a flank, hopefully behind some LOS blocking terrain, and then bully the flank and back field units on objectives. He is not a main line damage dealer and should not engage anything that can fight back in CC well. Also the teleport really lets you get a good base to use doombolt if you opponent doesn't screen well, really good for putting down those annonying lone opps (doombolt is not a shooting attack so can target at 18"). Hopefully you will find this useful.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
The list I'd been running went up about 250pts, so I've got two new ones. Anyone have any thoughts about these?

No Termies

Spoiler:

Magnus – 440
Ahriman – 130
Sorcerer in Termie Armour (Enhance: LoFL) – 140
Infernal Master (Enhance: UC) – 110
Sorcerer – 95
10 Rubrics with flamers – 210
10 Rubrics with bolters – 210
5 Rubrics with flamers – 105
5 Rubrics with flamers – 105
3 Tzaangor Enlightened – 45
Mutalith – 165
Rhino – 75
Changeling – 90
3 Flamers – 80
= 2000
16 sorcery points

This list eschews the typical Terminator death block for a Rubric block that, while it doesn't have quite as much firepower or durability, is literally half the points. Stick an Infernal Master with Crystal to lead these guys, and they can deploy waaay back to gain some safety and then teleport forward T1 to get the drop on a scary target. If you have the armor turned off your target, then maybe select Lethal Hits for this round, otherwise stay in DevWounds as usual.
Since we can't double-dip into the ignore damage strat anymore, maybe we spend those sorcery points on the reroll everything strat instead so that both Magnus and this unit get it!
Stand next to Magnus, buff the bolters, and you're getting 20 shots hitting on 2s (from Magnus), Sustained 1 (from Master), Lethal (from Army). That's roughly 22 hits (get three 1s and convert two of them with the reroll and also get three 6s), +1 to wound means we're wounding T6-9 on 4s and T10+ on 5s. Add in the Master's 2d6 S7 shots, for another roughly 5 and I'd say that's a solid 18 wounds into a tough target from this unit. If you did the average (5) from Doombolt at the start, then you've done 23 wounds on a Knight. If you're below average, finish it with the Terminator Sorcerer, Magnus, or the Mutalith, maybe.

Still Termies

Spoiler:

Magnus – 440
Ahriman – 130
Sorcerer in Termie Armour (Enhance: UC) – 135
Infernal Master (Enhance: LoFL) – 115
10 Rubrics with flamers – 210
5 Rubrics with flamers – 105
5 Rubrics with flamers – 105
10 Termies with cannons and missiles – 430
Mutalith – 165
Rhino – 75
Changeling – 90
= 2000
15 sorcery points

This one has fewer units, but still counts on the Occult Block to smash face. It's very similar to the list I had been running, so I want to try out the first one and see if Rubrics are decent performers. The combi-bolters as opposed to inferno bolters are just so much better, with over twice as many shots (but for twice the points). 10 Terminators with cannons/missiles and a leader, in RF range, will get 36 bolter shots, 12 cannon shots, and 4 missile shots. Next to Magnus, buffed, that's a lot of hits on 2s and wounds on 5s, as well as lethal and sustained and even some damage 3.
If we do the same setup as the above Rubrics... 35 bolter hits, 27 wounds. Then 8 hits and 1-2 DWs from the cannons, then 3 hits and 1-2 wounds from the missiles, THEN 3 hits and 6 MWs from the Termie Sorcerer's smite. YIKES!

Hi Elric, i am starting TS and really appreciate your posts. Any new feedback about the terminator list ? and the full Rubric one ?

thanks !

The Rubrics are a lot harder to maneuver over the course of a whole game, bc once they drop in, even if they kill their target, they have very few shots at anything outside their 17" range (move+rapid fire). I just like the Terminators.

I've adapted again and I'm currently using Ahriman with 10x Flamer Rubrics in Rhino, Master with Crystal and 5x Flamer Rubrics, Sorcerer with Scrolls and 5x bolter Rubrics, Termie Sorcerer with Vortex and 10x Termies, Magnus, and 3x Enlightened.

So I am back to using TS, and I had a game against CSM yesterday. My list was as follows:

Ahriman
10x Flamer Rubrics with Soul reaper
Rhino
Exalted Sor
10 x Rubrics with Soul reaper
Daemon Prince
Termie Sor with crystal
3 5 x SoT units with Soul reaper and missile
Forgefiend
3 x Tgor bow guys
Predator Annihilate

We played on this table that was preset and filled with ruins so he had the advantage as his army was more melee focused. He got some long charges off turn two and put down some of my vehicles, but I ended up weathering the hit and then began to hit him back with with my physic close combat and just wore him down to end up winning by 2 points. Thoughts on Units:

Ahriman w/10x Flamer Rubrics with Soul reaper in Rhino- So yea they toasted some CSM. However I did not use the remove armor cabal, and with only an ap -1 they did less damage then I was expected to CSM legionaries. I think you really need to plan to use the remove armor cabal each time the shoot to maximize their efficiency. They also did some overwatch damage, but then got promptly killed when attacked by a bunch of units as it always the case. I am not sold on the rhino. If there was indirect maybe could be good, but with the move again cabal the unit can move basically as far anyway, and as infantry can move though ruins. Also if they start in the Rhino, you don't generate the 4 cabal points they are worth.

Exalted Sor w.10 x Rubrics with Soul reaper- yea I know another squad of flamers would probably be better, but I don't own more than 9. They actually did pretty good, and since I don't have a 10 block of termies, I used the re-roll physic attacks/physic bolters on them and they did some ok damage. I also resurrected 4 rubrics which is really helpful. I think I like the Exalted better with a 10 man, and the normal Sor better with a 5 man.

Daemon Prince- my first time taking the walking one and he did pretty well. I actually forgot the -1 hit aura two turns, so did not get that much of a feeling for him, and never got the use the precision thing. (I am going to put a dice with -1 near him so I remember next time). Also our daemon princes are better than the CSM ones in combat because of the [Devastating Wounds]. He did a lot of damage that with that killing a maulerfiend, and oblits (both wounded prior). He also tanked a bit of fire with the 4++ and the ability to re-roll from cabal, and the 0 damage strat. I do like him if you are not bring Magnus (which if you are going to a competitive event, you most certianly are)


Termie Sor with crystal w/ 5 x SoT units with Soul reaper and missile- turn one teleport to put pressure on a mid-field objective as usual. Our terminators are really tough (actually terminators in general finally feel right), but their damage out put is not the best in my opinion without the strat/cabal use. I know 10 with the strat/cabal is the hotness, but I just don't want to use that in a friendly game. Also these guys did not need a points increase. They were fine where they were, as where the Rubrics which now feel overpriced, what needed to be changed is really the strat/cabal (although losing that would really hurt) and increasing the points for the characters was really what was needed. I felt as if I had one too few units in this game against the CSM.

5 x SoT units with Soul reaper and missile- see above.

3 x Tgor bow guys- They were really helpful for quick secondary support. They are really fast and with the small unit and other issues, my opponent basically ignored them. A more shooting focused army might find the extra shots to put into them, so they may not be best in every situation. But helpful and basically won me the game by doing a Investigate Signals secondary. I think people are using the lone operative blue scribes for this, which is probably better, but these guys work too. I would use them again.

Forgefiend- So, no where near as good as the CSM one, but that is because [Devastating Wounds] is still so bonkers broken. However, he is still pretty good, 3d3 blast S10 ap -3 3D is a pretty good profile. I only got to shoot him once (he killed the unit he shot) so did not get to use the -1 to the opponent thing. He got hit turn two with a long bomb charge from advancing and charging possessed so that was that (again [Devastating Wounds] is still too good).

Predator Annihilate- Finally this tank, which will include my rant on Chaos vehicles in general. He did ok, this was not a good battlefield for him due to the heavy ruins preventing any real long ranged shooting (it was basically a city fight). However in typical fashion he wiffed with his laser cannons on turn 3, and was bogged down by warptalons who made a deep strike charge on him (those things are really good now by the way). I am going to trade him out next game for something else, but GW really needs to look at the points for all the chaos vehicles in our army other than the forgefiend who feels right (and is like 45 points cheaper than the CSM ones). None of the vehicles benefit from our detachment abilities, don't generate cabal, can't cast cabal, and only really benefit from the remove armor, move again (probably being used on infantry) and re-roll save (if in range of a Sor and not being used on something more important). Also we don't have a single character, enhancement, or stratagem that helps our vehicles in any way. The point is due to this they are all really overcosted in our army by like 15 or 20 points (maybe not Rhino as that is just a transport). The CSM ones get so much more with the dark pacts. The most egregious one is the hellbrute. The CSM one is awesome with its ability. The WE and DG ones also have much better abilities then ours, and I think the -1 cabal in 6 inches is super niche and rarely matters (how many times do you end up having one or two cabal dice remaining anyway.) And ours is 5 points more than the other ones! They could make it 100 points and I don't think I would field it. Sorry rant over.

Just a note on [Devastating Wounds] with the physic attacks. I know a lot of people like the [Sustained Hits] but I think the [Devastating Wounds] is better unless you bring Magus who wants more attacks. I know the unit Sor already have [Devastating Wounds], but really how much value are you getting out of [Sustained Hits] anyway with a 1d attack with only 2 or 3 shots. I think it is better to have [Devastating Wounds] active for getting though enemy army, which really makes our physic attacks punch up, especially in close combat. Maybe if you are playing Orks, or GSC that don't really have good armor, [Sustained Hits] might be better, but I think against any vehicle heavy or SM equivalent armies, the [Devastating Wounds] is better. Also I would never take [Lethal Hits] as I think the auto wound is only good if you already have good ap, but low to middle strength which most of the physic attacks are only -1 or -2. Many times you can get [Lethal Hits] with a Sor leading a unit anyway.

Anyway hope this is helpful.

Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..

shogun wrote:
Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..

I don't see anything that would prevent that as the only limitation is you can only use the cabal power 1 time, but the enhancement breaks that. Although I don't know why you would want to double on Magnus as with his move I believe only using it once lets him go 32" so pretty much anywhere on the board already

Not to mention without chargeshas to be pretty darn specific use. Could see more use for double surge for ahrimann&flamer squad.

Surely Magnus can't be given an enhancement because he's an epic hero?

Doesn't have to. Extra move is cabal done by psyker that grants other unit to move.

So that exalted sorcerer does ritual moving magnus, then does again.

tneva82 wrote:
Doesn't have to. Extra move is cabal done by psyker that grants other unit to move.

So that exalted sorcerer does ritual moving magnus, then does again.

 xeen wrote:

shogun wrote:
Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..

I don't see anything that would prevent that as the only limitation is you can only use the cabal power 1 time, but the enhancement breaks that. Although I don't know why you would want to double on Magnus as with his move I believe only using it once lets him go 32" so pretty much anywhere on the board already

Thanks. I did a small 3-round tournament with my list:



Game 1: I lost to a mean Genestealer cult army. Actually moved Magnus twice to get behind enemy cover and blast away a ridgerunner and get 'behind enemy lines' mission objective. Enemy put everything in reserves and when the dropped down the actually killed 3 flying daemon princes in one go. After that I killed a lot of enemy units but the GSC kept scoring to many mission points.

Game 2: played against my buddies Aeldari-army. I really feared this army because it got 8 bright lances (2 warwalkers and two wraithlords) and 3 fire prims. I need to get first turn to get my defences up and take out a few enemy shots. I actually got first turn and teleported the walking daemon prince mid field and moved magnus twice to get within 6 inch (stealth) took out a warwalker and damaged another one. Only problem is that my buddy actually took down 6 wounds on the walking daemon prince with overwatch + 6 to hit fate dice. But next turn my buddy didn't roll so well and I actually managed to save all the shots. I needed 'weaver of fate' twice and the ignore damage stratagem but I survived. End of his turn I put 3 flying daemon princes in reserves. After that i dropped in and kept him in the ropes. Lot of stuffed died on both sides bot I controled the mid field and primary objectives. I won. If my opponent got first turn It would probably be over in 20 minutes.

Game 3: Against chaos knights. One big one with laser destructor. I got first turn again and dropped the big knight with psychic shooting from magnus and the shots from the daemon princes. From that point on it was a garanteed win. I did underestimate the close combat attacks from the small knights (stalkers?) and the actually killed magnus. I still claimed the mid field and won on points. Normally the daemon princes can do a decent amount of wounds in close combat but S8 against knights really sucks.

In the end I got 5th place (26 players). The winner got a perfect score with aeldari (10 wraithguard and Yncarne)

I really like this list. It's fun. Daemon prince with stealth really helps against shooting and when I got my defence up it can be difficult to deal with this armylist. A lot of armylist got a decent amount of D3 weapons to take out terminators and stuff, but with -1 damage on magnus It is not that efficient.

I would really want to play this in a 2000p setup but i know this would not work. At 1500 points the enemy player can have difficulty taking down magnus but at 2000 points the amount of shooting or objective grabbing tips the balance to much.

shogun wrote:

 xeen wrote:

shogun wrote:
Got a question regarding temporal surge: anything preventing a double temporal surge on Magnus with the lord of the lore enhancement? I got a game coming up against genestealer cult and I need alle the mobility that I can get..

I don't see anything that would prevent that as the only limitation is you can only use the cabal power 1 time, but the enhancement breaks that. Although I don't know why you would want to double on Magnus as with his move I believe only using it once lets him go 32" so pretty much anywhere on the board already

Thanks. I did a small 3-round tournament with my list:

Spoiler:

Magnus
Daemon Prince (Um. crystal)
Daemon prince with wings (lore)
Daemon prince with wings
Daemon prince with wings

Changeling
3 flamers of tzeentch
3 3 flamers of tzeentch

Game 1: I lost to a mean Genestealer cult army. Actually moved Magnus twice to get behind enemy cover and blast away a ridgerunner and get 'behind enemy lines' mission objective. Enemy put everything in reserves and when the dropped down the actually killed 3 flying daemon princes in one go. After that I killed a lot of enemy units but the GSC kept scoring to many mission points.

Game 2: played against my buddies Aeldari-army. I really feared this army because it got 8 bright lances (2 warwalkers and two wraithlords) and 3 fire prims. I need to get first turn to get my defences up and take out a few enemy shots. I actually got first turn and teleported the walking daemon prince mid field and moved magnus twice to get within 6 inch (stealth) took out a warwalker and damaged another one. Only problem is that my buddy actually took down 6 wounds on the walking daemon prince with overwatch + 6 to hit fate dice. But next turn my buddy didn't roll so well and I actually managed to save all the shots. I needed 'weaver of fate' twice and the ignore damage stratagem but I survived. End of his turn I put 3 flying daemon princes in reserves. After that i dropped in and kept him in the ropes. Lot of stuffed died on both sides bot I controled the mid field and primary objectives. I won. If my opponent got first turn It would probably be over in 20 minutes.

Game 3: Against chaos knights. One big one with laser destructor. I got first turn again and dropped the big knight with psychic shooting from magnus and the shots from the daemon princes. From that point on it was a garanteed win. I did underestimate the close combat attacks from the small knights (stalkers?) and the actually killed magnus. I still claimed the mid field and won on points. Normally the daemon princes can do a decent amount of wounds in close combat but S8 against knights really sucks.

In the end I got 5th place (26 players). The winner got a perfect score with aeldari (10 wraithguard and Yncarne)

I really like this list. It's fun. Daemon prince with stealth really helps against shooting and when I got my defence up it can be difficult to deal with this armylist. A lot of armylist got a decent amount of D3 weapons to take out terminators and stuff, but with -1 damage on magnus It is not that efficient.

I would really want to play this in a 2000p setup but i know this would not work. At 1500 points the enemy player can have difficulty taking down magnus but at 2000 points the amount of shooting or objective grabbing tips the balance to much.

Cool write up, 5th place is not to bad. I like that list, I don't think it is meta breaking, but sure looks fun. Yea the DPs lower strength really does hurt.

Does anyone ally-in a dreadblade?

I also play Chaos Knights, so could bring along a Despoiler, Descecrator or even 3 Brigands. Without their enhancements or stratagems though, are they effectively overcosted in a TSons army?

 dreadblade wrote:
Does anyone ally-in a dreadblade?

I also play Chaos Knights, so could bring along a Despoiler, Descecrator or even 3 Brigands. Without their enhancements or stratagems though, are they effectively overcosted in a TSons army?

The problem is that chaos knights don't really add much to a thousand sons army. Thousand sons struggle a bit after the point raise and losing more points to other stuff puts pressure on the thousand sons synergy. Also losing knight stratagems hurts a lot.

I tried putting my Scarabs in the Land Raider yesterday to take advantage of the Assault Ramp. Unfortunately I went first, so never got the chance to use it (they disembarked on a midfield objective turn 1). Then the Land Raider was out of position with them when it would have been better holding the deployment zone objective and providing covering fire. Oh well, it was worth a try, but I don't think I'll bother again.

 dreadblade wrote:
I tried putting my Scarabs in the Land Raider yesterday to take advantage of the Assault Ramp. Unfortunately I went first, so never got the chance to use it (they disembarked on a midfield objective turn 1). Then the Land Raider was out of position with them when it would have been better holding the deployment zone objective and providing covering fire. Oh well, it was worth a try, but I don't think I'll bother again.

yeah, the trouble with land raiders is they are both armed like MBT while ALSO being a high capacity transport, and have points to match those two roles, but its very difficult to to actually use it as both, so your always paying for capability your not using properly.

a Thousand Sons lascannon-armed predator costs 130pts, and a rhino costs 75*. Together, they are STILL cheaper than a Land Raider (205 pts vs 240 for a LR). The only advantage of the LR is the assault ramp trick, but Tsons dont really have a suitable payload for that anyway. Dont get me wrong scarabs aren't bad at melee, but their not the sort of melee blender we'd need to make that tactic viable, especially at a buy-in price of 419 or even 634 points (for 5 and 10 scarabs).



*yes, i know you can't put termies in a rhino, but you get the point.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

 dreadblade wrote:
I tried putting my Scarabs in the Land Raider yesterday to take advantage of the Assault Ramp. Unfortunately I went first, so never got the chance to use it (they disembarked on a midfield objective turn 1). Then the Land Raider was out of position with them when it would have been better holding the deployment zone objective and providing covering fire. Oh well, it was worth a try, but I don't think I'll bother again.

yeah, the trouble with land raiders is they are both armed like MBT while ALSO being a high capacity transport, and have points to match those two roles, but its very difficult to to actually use it as both, so your always paying for capability your not using properly.

a Thousand Sons lascannon-armed predator costs 130pts, and a rhino costs 75*. Together, they are STILL cheaper than a Land Raider (205 pts vs 240 for a LR). The only advantage of the LR is the assault ramp trick, but Tsons dont really have a suitable payload for that anyway. Dont get me wrong scarabs aren't bad at melee, but their not the sort of melee blender we'd need to make that tactic viable, especially at a buy-in price of 419 or even 634 points (for 5 and 10 scarabs).



*yes, i know you can't put termies in a rhino, but you get the point.

Yea also the Land Raider for TS doesn't benefit from (maybe the remove armor but that is it) or contribute to the cabal, and doesn't benefit from the detachment rule which is two strikes. The CSM one can actually be pretty good as they have good units to deliver (aka chosen) and the nurgle sustained hits on the LCs can really add some serious damage. And I believe the TS one is the same price. Without a hefty price reduction to recognize that our army rule and detachment rule does not help it, there really is no point. That is true of basically all of our vehicles. Our lists are really pigeon holed right now due to the lack of diversity in the detachment which combined with the army rule (which i do love btw, not saying they should change it) we are really encouraged to play massive amounts of characters. Most of which need to be leading something, which really doesn't leave much points for vehicles. Since we know our book is fall at best, hopefully GW will give some points cuts to make things interesting.

So the balance pass is out and for the Thousand Sons it might as well be September of 2023. No changes in any way what so ever. So disappointing, it definitely feels like no one on the GW staff gives even half a sh*t about the TS. I mean the CSM vehicles are grossly overcosted, the points nerfs to scarbs and rubrics in the last pass seemed unnecessary then, but really so now, and while the Dark Eldar really needed help, I am super jelly that they got a new detachment, when ours is starting to feel so same same every time I play. So much for trying to fix "internal balance" as our lists are basically going to be exactly the same every game with very minor differences for at least the next 6 months.