Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Arschbombe wrote:
So what are everyone's thoughts about the new Scorpions?

I didn't see them yet but I always had big soft spot for Striking Scorpions, but they were in Finecast which I will never buy due to bad experience with Warp Spiders. Also the unit was just no good to use lol

I have already a lot of Kill Team things to do (I still work on Pink Horrors I started on New Years' Day lol) but if this Scorpions are good I may need to add one more to this list ;_;

In theory my box with scorpions will show up Monday. I liked the models enough to buy them, they kept the classic look, but in plastic. Never had the metals, and have sworn off finecast (after rangers/firedragons)

Rules wise they seem OK? I’ve not fielded them, but on paper they look they the fill the role they always have. Tougher then banshees, but slower with deployment tricks. Crappier attacks, but more of them. Cost roughly the same.

If you just want to infiltrate a cheep unit, rangers work better. But are flimsy.

If you want a blender melee unit, they should work. We have a few of those, what what is your preference for target? I’d have to crunch the numbers, but classicly you wanted banshees for crunchy things, but scorps for clearing chaff like guard and gaunts.

I’d have to crunch the numbers, but classicly you wanted banshees for crunchy things, but scorps for clearing chaff like guard and gaunts.

This always felt slightly strange to me. On one hand, the contrast of scorpions being tougher and better at killing hordes but worse at killing marines compared to banshees *does* create decent niches for each of them. But on the other, striking scorpions are supposed to be ninjas.

There was that point in I want to say 8th(?) where they'd sort of flip-flopped jobs, with scorpions being slightly better at killing marines due to mortal wound mandiblasters and banshees being slightly better against feq's because low-strength-but-good-AP. And while I didn't love that, it sort of made sense that the ninjas would pop out and go after the enemy VIP with weapons that (sometimes) bypassed their armor and invulns.

Some days I feel like our melee unit niches should be broken down more like this:

Shining Spears - Big hammer blow. Swoops in to do good damage on the charge.

Scorpions - Be where the enemy doesn't want you. Instead of infiltration rules, give them deepstrike to facilitate ambushes better. Maybe let them do the deepstrike-on-your-opponent's-turn strat for free or give them charge bonuses if they arrive in terrain. They don't have to be blenders, but they should be good at menacing unscreened units.

Banshees - Making them meq killers is fine, but spears should theoretically be doing that already. Maybe lean into the scream thing and make them a really good tarpit/debuff unit. Like, prevent enemies engaged with them from falling back, make them hard to hurt in melee, etc. They're not out-dueling you; they're making you double-over in pain while they line up decapitation strikes. Turns them into a unit that can take a problem enemy out of the equation for a turn.

Harlequins- These guys should probably be the blender unit with the option to take a troupe master and/or specific harlie weapons to make them good at killing marines as well (albeit at a higher points cost).

 Wyldhunt wrote:

This always felt slightly strange to me. On one hand, the contrast of scorpions being tougher and better at killing hordes but worse at killing marines compared to banshees *does* create decent niches for each of them. But on the other, striking scorpions are supposed to be ninjas.

There was that point in I want to say 8th(?) where they'd sort of flip-flopped jobs, with scorpions being slightly better at killing marines due to mortal wound mandiblasters and banshees being slightly better against feq's because low-strength-but-good-AP. And while I didn't love that, it sort of made sense that the ninjas would pop out and go after the enemy VIP with weapons that (sometimes) bypassed their armor and invulns.

It was at least clearly defined back when power weapons just ignored armor. Banshees were S3 so wounded marines on 5s. Scorpions had more attacks at S4 and would dish out more wounds, but targets got saves. So the math worked out that Banshees were wasted on horde units and Scorpions were wasted against marines with the caveat that the exarchs claw could get through power armor.

Looking at the math now it seems that Scorpions are just better. Period.

Mirror sword Exarch plus 9 Banshees will dish out 9.16 unsaved wounds against a T4 target with 3+ save. A biting blade exarch with 9 Scorpions will only do 4.38 unsaved wounds but will add 5.69 MW to the mix for 10.07 total. Against T5 with 5+ it is 7.33 and 10.18 respectively. Against guard equivalent at T3 5+ Banshees generate 14.67 unsaved wounds while the Scorpions do 18.01. Sustained Hits and Devastating Wounds make all the difference.

 Arschbombe wrote:
It was at least clearly defined back when power weapons just ignored armor. Banshees were S3 so wounded marines on 5s. Scorpions had more attacks at S4 and would dish out more wounds, but targets got saves. So the math worked out that Banshees were wasted on horde units and Scorpions were wasted against marines with the caveat that the exarchs claw could get through power armor.

The problem there was the transition from 2nd to 3rd - power swords had a fixed minimum(?) S of 5, so Banshees wounded Marines easily and put a hefty dent in their save.

When we went to 3rd they had a power weapon, which ignored the save but then didn't actually make it easier to wound. Kinda messed with Banshee's niche as Marine-killers.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

This always felt slightly strange to me. On one hand, the contrast of scorpions being tougher and better at killing hordes but worse at killing marines compared to banshees *does* create decent niches for each of them. But on the other, striking scorpions are supposed to be ninjas.

There was that point in I want to say 8th(?) where they'd sort of flip-flopped jobs, with scorpions being slightly better at killing marines due to mortal wound mandiblasters and banshees being slightly better against feq's because low-strength-but-good-AP. And while I didn't love that, it sort of made sense that the ninjas would pop out and go after the enemy VIP with weapons that (sometimes) bypassed their armor and invulns.

It was at least clearly defined back when power weapons just ignored armor. Banshees were S3 so wounded marines on 5s. Scorpions had more attacks at S4 and would dish out more wounds, but targets got saves. So the math worked out that Banshees were wasted on horde units and Scorpions were wasted against marines with the caveat that the exarchs claw could get through power armor.

Oh, sure. It was definitely clear back in the day. Like I said, it was just slightly weird that our sneaky ninja aspect... had heavier and was better at clearing hordes than piercing armor compared to their most directly comparable counterparts (banshees). Not a bad state of affairs, just slightly weird. And when we're looking purely at damage output, it seems like shining spears and harlies *should* be more lethal. So you'd expect scorpions and banshees to lean into angles other than lethality so that they don't compete too directly with each other/spears.

Looking at the math now it seems that Scorpions are just better. Period.

Mirror sword Exarch plus 9 Banshees will dish out 9.16 unsaved wounds against a T4 target with 3+ save. A biting blade exarch with 9 Scorpions will only do 4.38 unsaved wounds but will add 5.69 MW to the mix for 10.07 total. Against T5 with 5+ it is 7.33 and 10.18 respectively. Against guard equivalent at T3 5+ Banshees generate 14.67 unsaved wounds while the Scorpions do 18.01. Sustained Hits and Devastating Wounds make all the difference.

Yeah...Between Always Strike First and Jainzar's countercharge rule, I *think* the designers want banshees to be a unit that intercepts enemy chargers and then swings first to reduce the enemy's number of attacks before they swing? But that's both a little too niche and also requires you field Jain and also requires you line a few different variables up just right to pull off. If that *is* the role GW wants banshees to play, I feel like they need Jain's counter-charge thing baked in. But also, I'd probably rather have scorpions be the ones who jump out of nowhere to intercept the enemy and let banshees be more proactive tarpits.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

But also, I'd probably rather have scorpions be the ones who jump out of nowhere to intercept the enemy and let banshees be more proactive tarpits.

Banshees as tar pits seems counterintuitive. T3 4+/4++ in melee doesn't seem like it's meant to stick around long.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:

But also, I'd probably rather have scorpions be the ones who jump out of nowhere to intercept the enemy and let banshees be more proactive tarpits.

Banshees as tar pits seems counterintuitive. T3 4+/4++ in melee doesn't seem like it's meant to stick around long.

They wouldn't stick around very well with their current rules, but they've flirted with the concept in past editions between lowering enemy WS (maybe that was a Jain rule), imposing to-hit penalties, the current invuln save thing, the FNP exarch power in 9th, etc.

Banshees' whole gimmick is that they scream at you to mess with your ability to defend yourself, and then they slice you up while you're reeling. You could probably represent that reasonably well with something like:
* Enemy units can't fall back if they were charged by banshees in the previous charge phase.
* Some sort of defensive rule on the turn banshees charge. -1 to hit? The invuln thing? Reducing enemy Attacks?
* Keep power swords at S4 so they can reliably kill a few models.
* Probably ditch Always Fight First and maybe Acrobatics.

With a set of abilities like that, you have a relatively inexpensive unit that you can throw at a more expensive unit to tie it up and keep it from going after your own more valuable/vulnerable units on the following turn. The banshees can reasonably lethal, but they don't have to run around deleting marine squads to have a role, nor do they have to compete with spears directly for "marine deleter" duty.

 Wyldhunt wrote:


They wouldn't stick around very well with their current rules, but they've flirted with the concept in past editions between lowering enemy WS (maybe that was a Jain rule), imposing to-hit penalties, the current invuln save thing, the FNP exarch power in 9th, etc.

Banshees' whole gimmick is that they scream at you to mess with your ability to defend yourself, and then they slice you up while you're reeling. You could probably represent that reasonably well with something like:
* Enemy units can't fall back if they were charged by banshees in the previous charge phase.
* Some sort of defensive rule on the turn banshees charge. -1 to hit? The invuln thing? Reducing enemy Attacks?
* Keep power swords at S4 so they can reliably kill a few models.
* Probably ditch Always Fight First and maybe Acrobatics.

With a set of abilities like that, you have a relatively inexpensive unit that you can throw at a more expensive unit to tie it up and keep it from going after your own more valuable/vulnerable units on the following turn. The banshees can reasonably lethal, but they don't have to run around deleting marine squads to have a role, nor do they have to compete with spears directly for "marine deleter" duty.

Historically Banshees didn't have a bunch of rules. The Banshee Mask was the big thing and its function has changed a lot over the years even as it kept the same general theme:

- 2nd edition. Banshee Masks only work on the charge. Target unit cannot fire overwatch or roll any attack dice during the first round of combat.
- 3rd edition. Banshee Mask wearers always strike first in the round of combat. Has no effect in subsequent rounds.
- 4th edition. Masks allow users to strike at I10 (highest value) and target units get no benefit from terrain or grenades. In 4th units in cover got to strike at I10. Charging units could use frag grenades to also attack at I10 into cover. Eldar could use plasma grenades to charge into cover and make the combat resolve at normal initiative value.
- 6th edition. Enemy models are at -5 initiative when attacked by a unit that includes a Banshee Mask.
- 7th edition. Masks cause Fear. Models cannot fire overwatch at units with a Mask.
- 8th edition. Enemy unit cannot fire overwatch.
- 9th. Target unit cannot fire overwatch or set to defend. Additionally causes enemy units within engagement range of the bearer are not eligible to fight until all Eldar units have done so.
- 10th. Always strike first.

Where a lot of the aspect power came from was exarch powers which have also varied widely over the editions. I would like to see the rules be attached to the unit and not just the exarch.