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Well I have been lurking for some time but I came out to get some build advice. Perusing the boards reveals that most guard advice seems to shun missile launchers in favor of lascannons. although I have played relativly few of my games with my IG I am hoping to change that and the ML looks like a tempting choice. Missile launchers are much cheaper and it looks to me like the +1 str and ap arent worth the increased cost especialy considering the former is already 8/3 respectivley, of course im just a noob to IG so what do I know. Can someone explain the reason lascannons are so desirable over missles?

Sure, as can most folks around here. I'm sure it's in a post somewhere in more detail, but the gist is thus:

The IG pack more heavy weapons then other armies, and thus can and should focus on specializing your weapons, instead of relying on generalist weapons. the ML is a generalist weapon with an effectivly worthless anti-infantry option, while the lascannon is the best tank-buster in the IG roster. It also excels against daemon princes, carnifexes, terminators, and other 2+ save nastiness.

As for cost, the difference is only 10 points, and it's arguable that in fact lascannons are either 1) undercosted in every other place they appear (in other armies, even) or 2) Missile Launchers aren't good enough. Personally, I vote for a little bit of both.

Remember that the IG get plenty of points to play with, and can afford to make their basic squads as effective as possible.

Marines can die to lasguns, tanks can't. The battle cannon and earthshaker are also good enough when it comes to killing marines.

Hmmm alright Ill have to try out Lascannons, on another note plasmaguns seem to get the same looks missiles do, whats the reasoning behind that.

Heck I don't even play IG and I can tell you that. It is far too easy for an IG to toast himself with a plasma gun, considering his flak armor save of 5+. Especially when rapid firing, which is what most people want a plasma gun to do to maximise its effect against marine equivalents or monstrous creatures.

Plasma guns are great. Anyone who knocks them as an IG special weapon is simply too concerned about whether their guardsmen live or die.

See thats what I was thinking yea sure so some chump bites the dust, he was only 16 points and with two shots it almost a certainty he will kill something if he is in rapid fire range. Besides there is a good chance he wont die either and best of all he can fire single shot at targets 24 inches away whereas meltas have a paltry 12 inch range which means your almost in assault before you get to use them (not that I am bashing meltas for suicicde squads against vehicles).

somtimes its good to have those blast markers for deepstriking troops

Who's been bagging on taking plasmaguns in a guard army?

I would say that have no idea what they're talking about, personally.

I've been embroiled in a ML vs everything else war at a different board. It basically comes down to this:

4 Lascannons vs 6 Missile Launchers vs 6 Autocannons vs vehicles over 6 turns:

LC = 24 shots = 12 hits = 12 (vs AV10), 10 (vs AV11), 8 (vs AV12), 6 (vs AV13), 4 (vs AV14)
ML = 36 = 18 hits = 15 (vs AV10), 12 (vs AV11), 9 (vs AV12), 6 (vs AV13), 3 (vs AV14)
AC = 72 = 36 hits = 24 (vs AV10), 18 (vs AV11), 12 (vs AV12), 6 (vs AV13), 0 (vs AV14).

The 4 Lascannons are 100 points. The MLs and ACs are 90.

Against AV10, 11 and 12 the Autocannon is superior to all of them. Against AV13 all of them are equal. Against AV14 the Lascannon is superior. Conclusion? The ML doesn't do anything that your army isn't already capable of doing with better weapons.

And we haven't even factored in Sv2+ big nasties. What's a ML going to do against them? Jack $#!t, that's what.

Lascannons are for killing big things. AV13 and 14, and things with a 2+ save. For everything else, there's Master Card... uhh... I mean Autocannons - a weapon that performs statistically better than the ML against all vehicular targets for the exact same points cost.

What else can we do? Ok, we'll go with 1 and 2 partials every turn, so 2 hits a turn. Fine then, Frags vs Heavy Bolters, equal points cost in guns.

6 ML's vs 9 HBs vs 6 ACs (90 points total) over 6 turns vs Infantry (GEQ, MEQ, GEQ in cover, MEQ in cover):

6 MLs vs GEQ's in open = 36 shots = 18 hits = 36 total hits = 24 wounds = 16 unsaved wounds.
9 HBs vs GEQ's in open = 162 shots = 81 hits = 81 total hits = 67.5 wounds = 67.5 unsaved wounds.
6 ACs vs GEQ in open = 72 shots = 36 hits = 30 wounds = 30 unsaved wounds (nearly double that of Frag Missiles)

6 MLs vs MEQ's in open = 36 shots = 18 hits = 36 total hits = 18 wounds = 6 unsaved wounds.
9 HBs vs MEQ's in open = 162 shots = 81 hits = 81 total hits = 54 wounds = 18 unsaved wounds.
6 ACs vs MEQ in open = 72 shots = 36 hits = 30 wounds = 10 unsaved wounds (4 more wounds, exact same points cost)


6 MLs vs GEQ's in cover (4+) = 36 shots = 18 hits = 36 total hits = 24 wounds = 12 unsaved wounds.
9 HBs vs GEQ's in cover (4+) = 162 shots = 81 hits = 81 total hits = 67.5 wounds = 33.75 (say 34) unsaved wounds.
6 ACs vs GEQ in cover (4+) = 72 shots = 36 hits = 30 wounds = 15 unsaved wounds (slightly better than ML).


6 MLs vs MEQ's in cover (4+) = 36 shots = 18 hits = 36 total hits = 18 wounds = 6 unsaved wounds.
9 HBs vs MEQ's in cover (4+) = 162 shots = 81 hits = 81 total hits = 54 wounds = 18 unsaved wounds.
6 ACs vs MEQ in cover (4+) = 72 shots = 36 hits = 30 wounds = 10 unsaved wounds (again, 4 more than the ML).

Here we see equal points of Heavy Bolters outperforming Frag Missile 3-4 times as much in every instance. The AC also out-performs the ML here.

How much more clear cut can you get?

BYE<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

Hehe, just a reminder. If you see posts by "Glaive Company CO" you need to either ignore them or realize that there is a regional difference here that makes stand and shoot guard armies lose horribly. So you may have heard me say that I don't use plasmas, but I think almost every other guard player around here lives by them. I keep detailed records of my games and I realized that on average a BS 3 Sv 5+ guardsman will only succeed in killing 1 marine on average before killing himself. In all of the games I played using those poor guys none of them survived to the end of the game. Only 2 Storm Troopers (4+ Save) ever survived and 1 of those died from enemy fire anyways. So in MY experience plasmas aren't really worth it. Like I said though, it's probably just the armies I play or my own ineptitude so pay it no mind.

"6 MLs vs MEQ's in open = 36 shots = 18 hits = 36 total hits = 18 wounds = 6 unsaved wounds."
"6 MLs vs MEQ's in cover (4+) = 36 shots = 18 hits = 36 total hits = 18 wounds = 6 unsaved wounds."

I was thinking that you may want to correct these to Krak Missiles since you want to take the best the ML has to offer. The frag missile in this scenario does not offer the best option for the ML.

6 MLs vs MEQ's in open = 36 shots = 18 hits = 18 total hits = 15 wounds = 15 unsaved wounds
The AC has 5 less wounds in this scenario instead of the (4 more wounds, exact same points cost).

6 MLs vs MEQ's in cover (4+) = 36 shots = 18 hits = 18 total hits = 15 wounds = 7.5 unsaved wounds.
The AC has 2.5 more wounds in this scenario instead of (again, 4 more than the ML).

A couple things that may need to be considered are:

1. You may want to compare too is 5+ cover.
2. The 90 points total is equiv between ACs and MLs. However, HBs fall outside of this since in order to get the 9 HBs, you must buy three extra 10 man guard squads or at the cheapest 40 point IG Command squads.

Just some food for thought.

"I was thinking that you may want to correct these to Krak Missiles since you want to take the best the ML has to offer. The frag missile in this scenario does not offer the best option for the ML."

Why? The one area where the ML performs better than any other weapon is against MEQ's in the open. Even then it's not performing 'better' than the Lascannon, it just does it more efficiently.

"You may want to compare too is 5+ cover."

Why? Standard cover in 4th Ed is 4+.

"2. The 90 points total is equiv between ACs and MLs. However, HBs fall outside of this since in order to get the 9 HBs, you must buy three extra 10 man guard squads or at the cheapest 40 point IG Command squads."

Or an 80-point FS unit. Even so, I was comparing the points for the weapons, not where they come from.

BYE

Well then I'm convinced, hard to argue with math.

One thing though, you assume that the points saved by using the cheaper ML will be used to buy more missles. It seems that if your trying to make room for something else downgrading some of your Lascannons to launchers could be an effective way to gain points to fit in another weapons platform like a Russ that you would otherwise be left without or upgrading to more effective special weapons for your squads without losing too much effectiveness from your shooting lines.

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 03/02/2006 3:16 PM
"I was thinking that you may want to correct these to Krak Missiles since you want to take the best the ML has to offer. The frag missile in this scenario does not offer the best option for the ML."

"Why? The one area where the ML performs better than any other weapon is against MEQ's in the open. Even then it's not performing 'better' than the Lascannon, it just does it more efficiently."

I was just merely pointing out that the ML out performs the Autocannon in this scenario where MEQs are in the open if you account for the fact that you can fire krak instead of frag missiles.  Your statement for frag missiles is correct, but for that specific scenario is misleading because it does not prove actual effectiveness if you account for both frag and krak options.  You can't buy a missile launcher with just frag missiles.

You weren't comparing a lascannon vs the AC/HB.  However, since you added that now into the mix, the Lascannon from a points and effectiveness standpoint is the worst of all options in any troop scenario since it has the same kill potential per shot as a missile launcher, but less number of shots at 4.5 at 90 points.

IM- "You may want to compare too is 5+ cover."
HBMC - "Why? Standard cover in 4th Ed is 4+."

Cover is typically either a 4+ or a 5+.  It depends on the area of the country and groups you play with.  I would say that if anything it is a 50/50 mix.  We hardly ever play with 4+ cover in our area, but I have seen a mix elsewhere along with people that play with a lot of 4+ in other areas.  If you take a 50/50 split in assessment, the ML performs better than the Autocannon in the 5+ cover environment and vice versa in the 4+ cover environment.  It ends up being almost split with I believe a 1 extra wound advantage going to the autocannon. 

"Or an 80-point FS unit."

Agreed.  The FS is a cheaper option for three HBs.  However, I was using the points basis that was equivalent to the 10 points per HB which you used in your example.  The FS HB is 15 points and therefore not equivalent to your examples.

 

"Even so, I was comparing the points for the weapons, not where they come from."

 

Yep, but the quantity in the army is important.  For a true comparison on effectiveness, I would suggestion going an equal points representation in the force.  That will give you true effectiveness within the specific army.

 

IE:  1-IG Squad with HB is 70 points

      1-IG Squad with ML is 75 points. 

 

At these points costs - the total where both match is 1050 points.  You would have 15 HB squads per 14 ML/AC squads.

 

Therefore a direct analysis on effectiveness would give the following figures.

 

14 ML (Frag) vs GEQ's in open = 84 shots = 42 hits = 84 Total Hits =  56 Wounds = ~37 unsaved wounds

15 HBs vs GEQ's in open = 270 shots = 135 hits =  ~113 unsaved wounds.
14 ACs vs GEQ in open = 168 shots = 84 hits = 70 wounds = 70 unsaved wounds (nearly double that of Frag Missiles)

14 ML (Krak) vs MEQ's in open = 84 shots = 42 hits = 36 unsaved wounds.  (ML is 1.5 times better than AC and better than HB)
15 HBs vs MEQ's in open = 270 shots = 135 hits =  ~91 wounds = ~31 unsaved wounds.
14 ACs vs MEQ in open = 168 shots = 84 hits = 70 wounds = ~23 unsaved wounds

 

**These two examples are different than the one that you gave and represent real proportions of weapons types in an IG force based on the points values of 10 per HB, 15 per AC and 15 per ML that you were using.**

 

Cover saves are up for debate.  To be honest - if you want to run them, be my guest.  I have to run and paint for Adepticon. 

 

Huh...a good point was made...definitely something to think about

God knows I have enough minis to outfit 10+ sqds with all of each HW.

Any way you mathhammer guys could do the same thing with special weapons?

If it's not too tough, maybe factoring in the overheats on plasma would help too.

I would love to Flagg, but I just put the new Tau Codex on reserve instead of buying the IG codex. . .

If you would like since I actually like to do these, I can break down the costs for the tau, chaos, space marine or wh armies. . . and would you agree with their standard of 2 being under the template or would you say 3 for the small blast template?

I would love to Flagg, but I just put the new Tau Codex on reserve instead of buying the IG codex

Um... I'll forgo the easy shot about hoping your math is better than your army lists. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I should have been more specific though. I was actually hoping HBMC or Inqi Malice. Hell, anyone else that is a qualified math hammerer. Qualified, as in owns the Dex or has access to it.

Alas, I won't be doing anything else on it for a while.  Adepticon is coming up and painting is a a priority.  I have to be ready for the Gladiator. 

 

You can use missile launchers on standing guardsmen to get the most from your Heavy Weapon Team sprues. So the real answer to this is take missile launchers AND lascannons - it's tactically more flexible, cheaper than all lascannons points-wise and also wallet-wise!

As a note, the best you can really hope for with small blast, unless the opponent is bunched up (i.e. deep struck or something) is 2.
Or more accurately 1 and 2 partials.
To get three, with the hole centered over the model, you would need 4 models within an inch of the targetted model. Not impossible, but not likely either.

At least ML can take on horde or MEQ. Lascannons are pretty pants against horde.

If you take a mix of MLs and Lascannons, it's cheaper in pts (while less effective) and cheaper in cash. So it will cost you less money. That's about it. Aside from economic concerns, it doesn't really have much going for it.

LCs can be very useful against most hordes, because most hordes have at least one target that cries out for lascannon attention.

Tyranids - Monstrous Creatures
Orks - Mega-armored Orks/Looted Russes/Battlewagons
LatD - Traitor Russes/Defiler/Greater Daemons/etc.

The only army that a LC is almost guaranteed to be wasted with is a Kroot merc force.

MLs are the most efficient anti-MEQ heavy weapon available to IG infantry. Point-for-point, they outperform any other alternative. (except, as HBMC points out, if the MEQs are in hard cover in which case the autocannon has a bit more going for it) IMHO, the extra ten points for the lascannon are almost always worth it, but if you rarely face AV14 or 2+ saves, the ML can be a good way to shave a few points off a force. H. is also close to correct in comparing heavy bolters favourably against frag missiles - I'd term it more as that there is no comparison. Heavy bolters against light infantry, autocannon against light vehicles, missile launcher against MEQs, and lascannon against heavy vehicles are most effecient.