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I opened my brand new predator box last night with an eye towards assembling it.

I got stuck on the decision of whether to have a twin linked lascannon on the turret or an autocannon.  I figured I'd let DakkaDakka settle the issue.

Of course I'll have heavy bolters on the sponsons.  Its be too much of a fire magnet otherwise.

Any thoughts or comments on the decision.

Russ

Well, if you're going to put the heavy bolters on, I'd say make it a Destructor so that you could concentrate on anti-infantry. Personally, I enjoy using an Annihilator, slapping on some lascannons and going tank-hunting. Off course, it is a bit fragile and a bit of a fire magnet, but it can buy back its points in a single round of shooting.

A lot of folks are a fan of Annihilators with heavy bolters. More flexible than an Annihilator with lascannon, and only a hair worse against infantry than a Destructor with the same sponsons.

What folks are fans of the HB/TL LAscannon configuration? That's about the worst possible configuration out there.

Your best bet is to dig up some rare earth magnets and rare earth the heck out of the pred. You should be able to make its configuration entirely modfyiable.

My favorite config is the lascannon sponsons with autocannon turret. Gives you a bit of flexibility, and not quite as effective as a pure anhilator, but cheaper, and what you lose in AT power you gain in ability to engage squadrons of light vehicles.

Well, me anyways. TLLC is solid enough for tanks ((2/3+(1/3x2/3))-(2x(2/3))=4/9s of a lascannon hit worse against heavy tanks than x2 lc) and x2 HB let it hit infantry a heckuva lot better than an autocannon, and are defensive weapons to boot. It is five points more expensive, I will concede.

Another little caveat - predators - like most direct-fire marine vehicles - are best in a vehicle-heavy army - lots of razorbacks and dreadnoughts backed by 96ers. Whirldwinds, in contrast, are great with infantry-heavy forces.

I'd go with the destructor. It's cheaper, and less of a fire magnet. People don't see lascannons, so they don't worry about it as much. (Marine players at least). Lascannons, honestly, belong in your tac squads, not vehicles. Vehicles should be dedicated anti-infantry work.

There is no best answer. Both configurations do a different job, if you want tank-killing, go annihilator, if you want anti infantry, go destructor. The key is to figure out what you need your predators to do based on the rest of your army list.

Darrian

Darrian, has a good point they are for different uses and frankly I think it would depend on what else you have in your army list. . .

Ok now if you use Land Speeder Tornadoes, Assault Cannon Terminators, or Dreadnaughts with assault cannons, I think you would want to use 3 Predator Annihalators with HB Sponsons, however if you are using MM speeders, or Las/Missile Dreadnaughts I would advise you to use the Destructor with the Auto-Cannon, and Heavy Bolters. . .

I have to second my previous speakers. All configurations have their use depending on the rest of the army. For this reason Id suggest to get BOTH. Do like I did and dont glue the halves of the turret together. Instead glue a small plastic bar (I used a piece from the sprue) into each half of the turret, so that they forn a cross, when you place the turrethalves onto each other. Now you can assemble the turret with the guns of your choice and use a small wire to bind around the cross of plastik bars. Drill both ends of the wire around each other and the turret will be absolutely stable untilll you undrill the wire.

Best of luck. Id also suggest to use interchangeable sidesponsons, but thats a little harder to accomplish.

I've used 3 destructors (AC/HB) and they work great. The low cost is the key factor I think. It takes the same amount of fire to kill it as a more expensive tank, which effectively makes it more resilient.

Also, it can often limit itself to fields of fire that aren't full of AT guns, since it's a move and shoot platform that is designed to kill basic infantry.

Huzzah! Three cheers for magnets! IMO any vehicle should be modular/magnetized. It helps you get the most bang for your buck, and it keeps you from having to play with the same list over and over again.

As the others have said, the two standard configs are TLLC+LC or AC+HB. Its probably never a good idea to mix the two. Have a plan for your tank and arm it accordingly, then stick to the plan!

I was considering using a Pred for tank hunting in a mobile marines force instead of the stock Lascannons in tac squads. I was considering using a Destructor with Lascannon sponsons since it's 5 points more than the Annihilator with the TL Las and is more resiliant against "weapon destroyed" results as well as being better all around if there aren't any tanks about.

I agree with wight_widow. I prefer to have the TLLC and HB sponsons, for the exact reasons he listed.

With a more traditional Annihilator, I can only move and shoot 1 weapon, unless I'm ponying up the extra 30 points for the machine spirit, thus turning it into a HUGE point sink... and a not too resilient one at that. Honestly... I would prefer to take an Annihilator without sponsons before I take one with lascannon sponsons.

Posted By mauleed on 03/15/2006 7:10 AM

I've used 3 destructors (AC/HB) and they work great. The low cost is the key factor I think. It takes the same amount of fire to kill it as a more expensive tank, which effectively makes it more resilient.

Also, it can often limit itself to fields of fire that aren't full of AT guns, since it's a move and shoot platform that is designed to kill basic infantry.

The only possible thing that I might consider other than the above would be replacing the turrets Autocannon with the Twin Linked Lascannons. It does not perform that much worse vs most infantry, and better vs MEQ infantry. In a pinch it can take out a vehicle. Does it do better against Falcons and other skimmers? The only consideration would be whether it is worth the extra cost.

It's my experience that the sponsons are more important than the turret.

You're going to get to fire the turret whether you move 6" or stay still. The sponsons have more influence on the dynamics of the tank on the battlefield -- if you take the lascannon sponsons, to fire more than one gun you're going to have to sit still. If you take the heavy bolters, you can move up to 6" and fire everything. That's the first decision.

Anyway, I pretty much exclusively use HB/AC and HB/TLLC preds. But I play Chaos and my options for mobile high strength guns are pretty limited -- I tend to look at it as HB/AC is the default, and if I have points to spare I'll upgrade to the TLLC to get a little more (mobile) anti-armor punch. I suspect in a loyalist SM list I'd only take HB/AC due to being able to take highly mobile assault cannons elsewhere.

"My favorite config is the lascannon sponsons with autocannon turret. Gives you a bit of flexibility, and not quite as effective as a pure anhilator, but cheaper"

Except its definitely a move or fire tank at that point, so why not go all the way to tri-las? Personally i like the Twin las/Hvy bolter combo for both the points savings and move and fire capability. Mind you the predators in my list are designed to fill the roile of utility infielder, so the abilty to move and engage different types of target is what i'm going for.

Cheers, F

IMO, if you really want to move and fire both offensive turret and sponson weapons, you should really stick with the Tri-las and buy yourself POMS. That way, you can let the near-sighted BS2 POMS fire the TLLC and really get your money's worth out of the TL characteristic, while letting your marine gunner fire a sponson at the normal BS.

Oy... point sink by then. 175 points with no other upgrades (if memory serves).

Hey, I didn't say it was cost-effective!

I vote for possessed Chaos predators

marine armies dont really need autocannons. you have enough ap4 around from h.bolters in sponsons and speeders and whatnot.

what you do need is lascannons. you can't really have too many lascannons and you specifically need mobile lascannons.

so twinlinked las turret. sponsons, las sponsons can't fire on the move. and they're expensive.

go with h.bolter sponsons, then your tank is quite cheap, its a mobile lascannon, and it can fire all of its weapons on the move which is great.

mobile firepower is crucial in 40k, and TL-Las with H.Bolter sponsons is the best predator for mobile firepower.

I tend to agree with spook. Having a move and shoot TL-lascannon can be very very valuable, and always being able to move and shoot a bunch of shots is nice. It's a tiny bit of cross-purposing, but the Tl las pays for itself by shooting once or twice a game at vehicles and spending the rest of the game shredding troops.

Far and away, TLLC and Heavy Bolter sponsons. If you want static durable lascannons, buy them in marine squads. With a Predator you are paying for mobility, so why spend points on this to only play it static?

In any case, how many lascannons do you need now? Vehicles, their primary target, are much easier to destroy and the heavy bolter is a great 'utility weapon' that keeps the points down, meaning the Pred can continue to engage targets once armour has been destroyed and can use it mobility at the same time.

Mixing roles on a Pred is silly. A basic principle of army design is units being geared for and tasked with specific roles. Your Pred should have a job, whether it?s killing tanks or mowing down troops.

If it?s for killing tanks, it?s silly to take HB sponsons. You?re one Weapon Destroyed away from being useless for your role. 2/6 Glances as opposed to 1 in 6 Glances. Who cares if you have to stand still for full firepower? You can still move and fire the twin-linked if you need to, and thus your mobile anti-tank firepower is just as good as the TL/HB Annihilator some people are advocating. And when you stand still you?re much more reliable at actually killing a vehicle. One Las shot from the turret = 8/9 chance to hit, then a 1/3 chance to damage a Landraider, Leman Russ, or Monolith- about 30%. With the extra Las shots from the sponsons? About a 57% chance of at least one damaging hit. You?ve nearly doubled your chances of doing your job in one turn of shooting. And that?s against AV14. Against lower armor values you vastly increase the chance of a kill because you?re looking at the possibility of multiple Penetrating hits. Something the AC/HB tank will never get in a single turn.

The AC/HB sponsons Pred is good too. It?s cheap and it mows down infantry. As Ed mentioned before, its other advantage is that because its target is infantry, you may be able to line it up and deploy it against units which aren?t capable of hurting it back. Not all infantry carry S7+ guns. With good use of terrain you may be able to avoid your enemy?s anti-tank weapons while still getting your shots at the target you want. And that?s always nice.

The AC/Las tank is not bad- obviously inferior against AV13 and AV14, the math brings it about equal for Glances against lower AV targets with Smoke or that are Skimmers Moving Fast. This configuration may be worth your points if you don?t face a lot of Land Raiders, Leman Russes, Monoliths, or enemy Predators across the table. Especially if you do face Eldar or Tau Grav Tanks.

"If it?s for killing tanks, it?s silly to take HB sponsons. You?re one Weapon Destroyed away from being useless for your role."

Actually my thoughts on the turret were a little different. My first reason to get a Pred was the mobile firepower, mostly the heavy bolter sponsons, that came with AV13. My fondness for th TLLC turret is that I hardly ever think to myself "gee, I wish I hadn't upgraded that AC to a LC". The AP alone on the lascannon makes it worth the while for MEq infantry and big 2+ save stuff like tyrants. I don't need the pred for tank killing, I have Las Plas squads for that, but I very well might need an extra, mobile, AP 2 shot at some point. So as insurance it does a fine job.

Cheers

Baal Pred.

Posted By Mannahnin on 03/17/2006 7:44 AM
Mixing roles on a Pred is silly. A basic principle of army design is units being geared for and tasked with specific roles. Your Pred should have a job, whether it?s killing tanks or mowing down troops.

You know... I really hate that sort of mentality.  There is more than one way to play this game, and I REALLY hate it when people think that the ONLY way to play successfully is to have single dimensions for units and armies.

Personally, I like to have armies full of multipurpose units.  There is no 1 unit that's uber anti-tank, nor uber anti-horde, nor uber h2h.  All of them sit somewhere in the middle.  Is it "optimized?" (God, I hate that word).  Probably not.  But what it IS is very flexible... and I've had great success with that style of play.

For that reason, I prefer the HB annihilator.  It's flexible.  And truth be told... it's primary role ISN'T anti-tank.  I have missile launchers spread throughout the rest of my army for that.

Oh, and I agree with StJohn.  The Baal is the best variant there is... but I play Dark Angels... so that's right out.

Need baals for normal marines. 3 baals, 3 squads of termies, 9 landspeeders. Hooray!

I don't get why people advocate usage of TLLC and HB sponsons.
Estatistically 3 lascannons kill as many meq's as 1 lascannon and 3 HB...
Plus with HB sponsons your Pred is basically tickling Leman Russes, Wraithlords, TMC's, wraithlords, monoliths and etc.
why waste 3 turns of fire taking down a wraithlord with a TLLC&HB pred when you can kill it in 1 turn with the TLLC/LC variant....
Aure you can use the TLLC/HB + a couple of las plas squas to do it in a single turn... But the TLLC/LC can do it and you can fire your las/plas at other places...
Mobility you say? with 48" range the TLLC/LC doesn't ned mobility.. all it needs is a good spot.. he can still move to aquire targets..
The only thing the TLLC/HB version is better is at killing non-MEQ's, but then again a pred destructor does it better and cheaper.
I don't get why people are always avocating to not mix weapons in devs squads and all of the sudden are advising to mix weapons in annihilator...

K, no one's saying you can't play with your units serving many, but all less efficient, rolls. But this is the tactics forum, so were' discussing what's more effective. And in this case, the option you're suggested is just less effective in any army list.