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Hi all,

Been out of touch with 40k since early 3rd ed, and have little prior experience with IG. Recently got my hands on the IG codex and was thinking of starting an army, but I'm not sure how to start.

Should I play an IG gunline or a mechanised IG? Or should I have an army that has elements of both static firepower and mobile units?

Personally I'm more inclined towards a gunline army. It may be less versatile than a mech army, but I feel that it packs a heck of a lot more firepower than a mech list.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of playing mechanised armies? While the mobility is undoubtedly useful, I keep thinking that spending 70++pts on a chimera is inefficient when I can get a full squad with heavy weapons for a little more. And the mobility also comes at a price of not being able to fire heavy weapons, which IMO is what the squads are there for in the first place.

Sure, having cheap tanks to block LOS/approach avenues etc may be useful, but in general is mechanised IG worth playing compared to the gunline IG?

For armies like tau, I can understand the need for mobile transports to get those pulse weilding troops within firing range, but for IG, IMO they do not need to move since they rely on their 48" heavy weapons instead of their 24" lasguns to do the work.

Am I missing something here? Maybe it's due to my lack of experience with IG, but the gunline seems to be a much better option compared to mech IG. Am I wrong?

And also, if I do choose a gunline list, what can I include to give me a capability to reach and retain objectives? I thought of a single armored fist squad for a last round rush, but with only 1 chimera on the board, it's just asking to be blown away to bits. Any suggestions?

Thanks all in advance!

I personally think static is stronger than mech but neither are in the top bracket of competitive armies. A mix of static and mech is generally a bad idea due to escalation - it is better to start all on or all off. Mech armies suffer from the lack of scoring units. You'll have a minimum of 5 Chimeras which equals at least 400 points tied up in dedicated transports which can't score. Static armies suffer in objective based missions but generally have the firepower (and durability) to blow the opponent off the board and win by default. Better objective grabbers than a single Chimera in an infantry list would be Rough Riders, I think. Don't use Chimeras to transport squads, use them as anti-infantry tanks instead.

Another factor to bear in mind is how you like to play games. Although I think the gunline is stronger, I would prefer to play mech because it makes the game more interesting for me, gives me a range of models to build and paint (rather than infantry squad no 23) and allows me to actually contest objectives.

Thanks for the reply!

Glad that I'm not totally wrong about thinking static armies are better than mech IG.

What kind of IG armies are in the top bracket of competitive armies then? Or is IG just not as good an army as compared to the rest of the field?

I'm also a little concerned that playing a static gunline army is going to be boring. Once the initial kick of rolling buckets-full of dice and blowing your opponent into smithereens has worn off, I'll probably start playing a different kind of army, maybe mechanised or even an advancing guard army with demolishers, rough riders and lots of assault weapons.

But is a static gunline army the best that IG can bring to the table in terms of competitiveness? Or are there better army types that I can make with IG?

Well, if you know that there are no alpha missions, the all deep striking plasma army of doom is not a bad one.

For reasons that will become obvious once I finish the AdeptiCon weekend report, I'm a big fan of mechanized Guard.

In short, I think that a gunline and mech Guard are comparable in VP missions.  But a Mech Guard army is ridiculously superior in objective missions. 

From playing vs Guard for quite some time, Im not sure if it can be advised to start Guard at all. The army has to be played to extremes to have a chance at competitive play and then still requires quite some conditions to win more than it loses (like very good commander, table size, terrain, mission, etc).

My friend has finally sold the army (and has just won a tournament with his new Blood Angels^^). If you dont care about winning and love the models you might go for it, but painting 100+ infantry or 10+ very similar tanks to still hardly compete, is not what I consider fun.

If you mainly like thouse tanks and gunline appeals to you, LotD or IW might be a better option in the long run. Especially LotD offer a lot of conversion options.

Ha, the plasma army of doom sounds like a fun idea to use once in a while!

And pray tell how to make mech IG work? I'm not sure that having so many points stuck in non-scoring, weak-armored, low firepower chimeras could allow the list to be as good as a static gunline when it comes to VP missions. Although it's easy for even a rusty fella like me to realise it's versatility and advantage in objective missions.

One of the many reasons I'm playing guard is that I hate CC. I really do. To me, CC should have no place in a game set in futuristic warfare. So to this end I will not play any CC-oriented army, and I will play extremely shooty armies that take pride in blasting all those CC units off the board... ha ha!

So it leaves me with either tau, IG, or iron warriors as shooty armies. Tau is IMO a rather difficult army to play well, even more so than IG, requiring the precise application of firepower at precise locations and situations. And I will not play IW because I hate marines in any shape and form. For a force that consists of tiny 1000-men strong chapters, you do see a heck of a lot of marines all over the place, despite all those marines you've killed in all those games you've played over all those years. Just doesn't make any sense, fluff-wise. I absolutely refuse to contribute to the infection that has turned warhammer 40K into space marine 40K.

Which basically leaves me with IG. I know that IG needs to be played to the extremes and be absolutely trimmed and starched to even be competitive, but I've always thought that at such extremes they are about as competitive as any other army. Guess I'm wrong... but it is fun to win with an underdog army though, and there's something attractive about the valueless-ness of IG troops in fluff and in actual gameplay, much like orks or horde 'nids. "Kill 100 of my troops, and they'll still be hundreds of thousands left to stomp you into the ground!"

Gotta love horde armies! Especially when they are shooty as hell, don't go into CC unless absolutely necessary, and don't wear power armor!

I've got no firsthand experience with IG, but I've done quite a bit of reading.  The debate in the "IG Heavy Stubbers" thread suggests that chimeras can be armed rather heavily (nine 36' anti-infantry shots) without becoming prime targets.  Apparently, the passengers can also fire six hull-mounted lasguns.  In a mech force with hellhounds and leman russ battle tanks, it seems solid enough.

For all those Mech Guard naysayers...here's a tidbit from my upcoming AdeptiCon 2006 Weekend Report:

Dakka Detachment One (Yakface, Blackmoor, Janthkin, and myself) fielded four mechanized Guard armies and left with the "Best Team Tacticians" title (highest Battle+Headhunter points once the Overall champions were removed from the picture).

So Mech Guard is definitely a viable force.

"So Mech Guard is definitely a viable force. "

because of the fact the I.G. squads are all mobile or is it the addition of all those chimeras?

I would have to say yes to both. In the early game - its about the guns and blocking LOS - turn 5 and 6 = move.

 I'm not sure that having so many points stuck in non-scoring, weak-armored, low firepower chimeras

Non-scoring, yes. Weak-armored...Not quite. It's AV12 which is alot harder to pop than AV 11 (I say 12 because of the 36" range guns+move&shoot everything allow you to face the enemy most of the time.) Low firepower? No. In a round of average shooting, a chimera will get more points from a 6 man las/plas squad than the las/plas squad will get from the chimera in return. Plus in vehicle heavy guard (What I play...I use 3-4 chimeras, but it's a standard list without doctrines) you have other targets that are higher priority to the enemy (Russ's, hellhounds).

Wow, never thought mech IG would work so well.

The addition of a heavy stubber really makes it so much more effective. For 82pts it now has 9 shots of farily high strength and out to 36". Makes an IG squad with heavy bolter and flamer look pale in comparison.

But to my addled brain this has 2 little problems. The vulnerability of a chimera aside (hope that target saturation will allow them to survive longer), to fire all 9 shots you can only move up to 6", which limits the amount of mobility you're trying to achieve by going mech in the first place. A minor problem, really, but just a thought...

The second one is what I'm more worried about. The points spent in all those chimeras for great anti-infantry killing leaves little points left for anti-tank hunting. IMO IG has so many ways to kill infantry, from pie-plates to hellhounds to massed lasgun fire and suicide flamer command or veteran squads. But the only really viable option for taking out tanks is infantry platoon squads and deep-striking plasma/melta command or veteran squads (risky at best). So in a mech army, with so many points tied up in transports, the number of lascannons you can bring is very limited, and moreover if your troops are being transported they can't fire heavy weapons either.

Of course you can have the squads start the game outside the chimera transport and never step into one so as to keep firing heavy weapons, but then why take a chimera then? I suppose having 1 or 2 chimeras nearby for some mobility and versatility may be nice, but just 2 tanks on the table will be blown away easily and quickly. On the other hand, mechanise the whole army and that element of added mobility and versatility may not be worth the sacrifice in AV ability.

Please enlighten me! I'm rather lost... How exactly does one use a mech army? My guess is that they spend the first few turns sitting outside the transports and just fire heavy weapons, and use the transports to selectively block LOS and help kill infantry. When the enemy finally close in for an assault, the threatened squads hop into transports and relocate, while rear squads continue to hammer the assault troops. And when it's their turn to be threatened, they relocate and the earlier squads now continue to shoot. Wash, rinse and repeat. In later turns, use the chimeras to move towards any objectives to hold them. Is this how one would play a mech IG, or any mech army for that matter?

And how does one find enough points to bring sufficient AV and anti-MEQ weapons to the table? I must try and work out the math, but since I play in an environment EXTREMELY heavy in MEQs, not being able to bring all those las/plas squads does worry me a little...

Please help!

Don't think of Chimeras as transports at all. Honestly, they suck at that.

The guard infantry packs the heavy weapons to take out the armor, and the they deploy (and stay) outside of the Chimeras.

What you need to do is think of the Chimeras as IFV's...Light tanks. Use them as such. The 36" range means that moving 6" is sufficient to make them useful.

And as a sidebar-The Chimera with 9 shots is 97 points. You forgot to pay for the hull heavy bolter

Posted By skyth on 03/29/2006 7:08 PM

 I'm not sure that having so many points stuck in non-scoring, weak-armored, low firepower chimeras

Non-scoring, yes. Weak-armored...Not quite. It's AV12 which is alot harder to pop than AV 11 (I say 12 because of the 36" range guns+move&shoot everything allow you to face the enemy most of the time.) Low firepower? No. In a round of average shooting, a chimera will get more points from a 6 man las/plas squad than the las/plas squad will get from the chimera in return. Plus in vehicle heavy guard (What I play...I use 3-4 chimeras, but it's a standard list without doctrines) you have other targets that are higher priority to the enemy (Russ's, hellhounds).

Hmmm... missed your post in my earlier reply.

I concur that chimeras make great ant-infantry killers. But against MEQs and vehicles they are sorely lacking, and that same 6 men las/plas squad will do much better.

Also, chimeras, russes, hellhounds etc all are great anti-infantry units, but only the russ works against MEQs, and none of them work against tanks. (cos with my kind of luck, getting the center of that pie-plate on a vehicle is about as easy as getting my girlfriend to play 40k...)

So how does a mech IG army deal with the issue of lack of anti-tank, and to a lesser extent anti-MEQ, capability in the army? What is a good mix/balance of number of squads with chimeras, number of squads without chimeras, and number of other tanks, in a mech IG army?

Posted By skyth on 03/29/2006 7:30 PM
Don't think of Chimeras as transports at all. Honestly, they suck at that.

The guard infantry packs the heavy weapons to take out the armor, and the they deploy (and stay) outside of the Chimeras.

What you need to do is think of the Chimeras as IFV's...Light tanks. Use them as such. The 36" range="" means="" that="" moving="" 6="" is="" sufficient="" to="" make="" them="" useful="">

And as a sidebar-The Chimera with 9 shots is 97 points. You forgot to pay for the hull heavy bolter

So I suppose I guessed correctly then, that squads in mech IG tend to operate outside the chimeras unless necessary, and they just sit there and shoot much like what they would have done if in a gunline army.

But I'm still worried that having too many chimeras would take away too many points meant for more las/plas squads. How many chimeras then would be a good idea in a 1.5k game? And would mechanising your entire army be efficient given that you'll have to take so many chimeras and thus less las/plas squads?

Yeah. The inf squads act as a gunline.

To run some numbers of MEQ kills per 100 points spent to give you an idea

Tac squad in rapid fire range: 2.22/1.76
Tac squad within 24", outside of 12": 1.35/1.00
Tac squad outside of 24": 0.48/0.24
Chimera: (All ranges) 1.03
Las/plas Guard squad:
SR:2.72/2.06
MR:1.57/1.14
LR: 0.44/0.22
(normal/4+ cover)

Now, compare to gaunt kills:
Tac Squad, SR: 4.54
Tac Squad, MR: 2.51
Tac Squad LR: 0.48
Chimera: 3.61
Guard SR:4.82
Guard MR:2.63
Guard LR: .44

From 24.01"-36", chimeras outperform all of the above options.

In return fire, a Tac squad will score .16 Chimera kills per 100 points and .06 Chimera immobilizes per 100 points at long range. (Guard racks in .15 kill/ .06 immobile)

Grand total VP per round of LR shooting per 100 points:
Chimera on Tac squad:19.74
Tac Squad on Chimera:18.43

In a mech force, the division of tasks is simple: vehicles hunt infantry, and infantry hunts tanks. There are always exceptions (light vehicles are multilaser bait, and 2+ save troops are generally best dealt with by infantry carrying meltas or plasma) but as a general rule of thumb, you can't go wrong with it.

Mech guard does have its weaknesses, don't get me wrong. But properly employed, its simply devastating. Most armies just don't have the capability to deal with that much armor rolling towards them.

Heres a thought - use the regular IG models as storm troopers - give them extra kit or something to make them look more high speed. Take the storm trooper and grenedier doctrines and field six squads of them in Chimera and the obligatory HQ - stripped. Give the squads meltas and plasma to taste. Add 3 Hellhounds and 2 Griffons - that takes you to 1850 on the dot. Should make for a fast moving, dynamic IG army

EDIT: my computer (or is it the server?) started acting up, sorry for all these extra posts!

EDIT: guess it's the server...

I build a mech IG list earlier (posted it in the army list forum, please do drop by and give some much needed advice!)

What surprised me was how quickly the points added up when I started including chimeras. In a 1.5k list, I only had the obligatory HQ, infantry platoon with 2 las/plas squads, 1 armored fist squads, all mounted in chimeras with hull HB and pntle stubber. 2 small units of rough riders, 3 leman russes.

Frankly having only 3 las/plas squads in an IG army scares me a little. There's way too little anti-tank capability in that list.

Or am I building the list completely wrong? Should I drop the riders and take a hellhound instead? Should I drop heavy stubbers for more warm bodies? Should I use less russes, or drop them totally for more las/plas/chimera squads? How can I increase the anti-tank capability of a mech IG army?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Posted By kaiservonhugal on 03/29/2006 10:07 PM Heres a thought - use the regular IG models as storm troopers - give them extra kit or something to make them look more high speed. Take the storm trooper and grenedier doctrines and field six squads of them in Chimera and the obligatory HQ - stripped. Give the squads meltas and plasma to taste. Add 3 Hellhounds and 2 Griffons - that takes you to 1850 on the dot. Should make for a fast moving, dynamic IG army

Hmm... that's a thought!

I've always passed on the grenadier doctrine, figuring that strom troopers cannot compete with veterans in the suicide role, while their lack of heavy weapons make them a poor substitute to regular las/plas guardsmen squads, since these squads are essentially the backbone of an IG army.

But packing them in chimeras and sending them forward with plasma/meltas does seem to address the issue of the lack of anti-tank ability, although it'll mean going uncomfortably close towards the enemy, something I'm not sure I have the stomach for...

But I guess with all those hellhounds and griffons and chimeras, enemy infantry are going to be taken out rather easily before they get to assault...

Any idea on how to reduce such a list into 1.5k?

And pray tell how to make mech IG work? I'm not sure that having so many points stuck in non-scoring, weak-armored, low firepower chimeras could allow the list to be as good as a static gunline when it comes to VP missions.

The non-scoring bit is a concern, and a valid one. It is a lot of points to tie up in units that can't complete your objective (big shoutout to all the GW writers and their pendulum! Good job on transports in 4th Ed guys!). Lower firepower though? No, no, no. I think you're looking at the AP6 of the Multi-Laser and dismissing it out of hand.

You need to look at the other parts - S6 and Heavy 3. Those are big assets.

I've been playing MechInf for a while and whilst it is certainly not as 'easy' to win with MechInf as it is with Gunline Guard, it is definately effective. Just watch out for Omega missions...

BYE

For 1500 - I would drop one of the meltagun squads in a Chimera and both griffons - comes to 355 points. It will definitely play differently though without the indirect.

Griffons kind of blow. Griffon's with Infernus shells, on the other hand, are ridiculously silly good. After last AdeptiCon's team tournament, Janthkin claims that using the Griffon with Infernus shells makes him feel the way he does when fielding the Siren prince.

Where are the rules for Infernus shells? A friend of mine plays Armored Company with a griffon, and that sounds like something he'd like to know about.

Imperial Armor Vol 3, or Imperial Armor Update 2005