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So, I am a new player and was planning my DA list with the core being a brick of DeathWing command squad, strikemaster, etc. New codex just removed the command squad and the strikemaster, nerfed Deathwing in general - Inner Circle Companions are weaker than Bladeguard, Knights can only be taken in squads of 5 now. Unforgiven Taskforce is still the weakest detachment. Seems like my excitement for a new Dark Angels army after 25 years out of the hobby just evaporated. And is GW going to refund me for the command squad box I just bought!? They STILL SELL IT! Sorry for the vent - I'm thinking all DA players should unite and boycot the new Assault DW box - who would play Deathwing now? Disappointed - Peter

Buy cool models, as they stay cool forever. Don't buy OP models as they won't stay OP forever. If the box isn't good value for you, don't buy it.

Codex points are written by one group of people (lets call them the Clown Team).

Field Manual points (and dataslates) are I believe written by someone else (lets call them the Clean Up Team).

So wait for the Field Manual points.

Although, I would say the Clown Team seems to be trying an experiment with this Supplement to see whether they can write the rules badly enough that the Clean Up Team can't repair them. I wouldn't put it past the Clown Team to be doing this out of spite at losing control of the final points.

Meh, some of them are disappointing.

I feel like Johnson is now the force multiplier and Guilliman is the beat stick which is somewhat backwards.

Losing both special Lieutenants and the Deathwing Command Squad are dissapointing for me as I was hoping they would be the wedge we could use to shoehorn that sort of thing in for the other chapters. I'd like to see Cap/Chap/LT and maybe Libby for each major armor/outfit type (Term, Grav, Bike, Jump, Power)

Turning the Ravenwing Command Squad into a Leader in and of itself is interesting, but I'm disappointed they don't have the double-up language you see on Lieutenants, Apothecaries, etc. Being able to do a unit of Samael, Command, Black Knights for 7 total bikes or Sammael, Command, Outriders would have been nice.

On the other hand, Azrael + Inner Circle isn't horrible.

Outriders as Battleline is good, Battleline Outriders that don't double their per-model-OC is less so.

The Ravenwing Det isn't bad, but the winner is the Deathwing (but Ironically most often for non-Terminator Deathwing) Inner Circle one at first glance. That there isn't another Green/AllThreeWings Detachment was a mistake.

Playing with the +1/-1 to wound abilities feels like a much more common and more potent Detachment theme than You suck less, and boost more when you're scared, especially given how hard it is to get or stay scared when those boosts matter.

A ravenwing Flyer Heavy Outrider BattleLine is tickling the back of my brain because AFAIK we still don't have a limit on Aircraft.

I don't think DA are going to be horrible, but they were treated a little poorly here.

I can't comment on how the changes affect the army performance, but the local tourney players in our WA group are all negative about it. To the point of shelving this army for now.

Seems like a weird decision to not include a green wing or combined detachment from an outside POV.

a_typical_hero wrote:
I can't comment on how the changes affect the army performance, but the local tourney players in our WA group are all negative about it. To the point of shelving this army for now.

Seems like a weird decision to not include a green wing or combined detachment from an outside POV.

I think they look at the original freebie as the combined wing detachment, but this was a great opportunity to give DA players a better one that doesn't suck.

It just really chaps me that I was in the middle of building this army, most excited about the Deathwing synergies (command squad + strikemaster+captain) and had purchased the command squad box recently. Seems completely underhanded to sell a box (still for sale as of this writing) that you are removing from the game. Not to mention the bass ackwards logic of nerfing Deathwing right before you try to sell the new Assault DW box. Judging from lots of reddit and other forum posts, DA players feel generally like not playing their armies anymore - including me. And as a new player, it is really frustrating to start an army and have this happen. Really give me pause to do all the work on a new army, if the a core unit that excites me about that army is also simply going to get removed from the same with the snap of a finger. I mean, why publish the datasheets with the 10th edition launch if you were just going to remove them from the game 6 months later?! Maddening.

First time, huh?

One of the problems is (IMO) that people seem to want their own subfaction version of specific units to be ever more powerful when compared to the main faction - so whereas orignally a specific Chapter unit might have a very small difference to others now they expectloads of special rules, bonuses and the like to make the super elite version of a super elite unit.

The changes seem a bit much overall, but there's an ever increasing upset from people when a book comes out that its not "the one". People are so used to power creep and high lethality that when the release cycle doesn't have that, they start freaking out and shelving armies.

It's honestly better that all armies/books are on the weaker end, so none of them are and we can maintain some parity.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
First time, huh?

LOL - totally. Learning this kind of thing happens, but still frustrating. Rules changes are one thing and I guess we roll with the changes, but removing complete units from the game seems hard to swallow - wasn't expecting it I guess. I'm a casual player/painter, but just the principle of buying units that so quickly get removed from the game doesn't seem right. GW should give some advance notice on units or boxes that will become obsolete in the game...

Yeah, selling something to customers that you know will not be usable as the thing it is being sold as with the next release and not making it public information is a bit a scumbag move tbh.

a_typical_hero wrote:
Yeah, selling something to customers that you know will not be usable as the thing it is being sold as with the next release and not making it public information is a bit a scumbag move tbh.

Yeah, totally agree. Just getting back into the hobby, it is a rude awakening and kind of sucks my enthusiasm away...

a_typical_hero wrote:
Yeah, selling something to customers that you know will not be usable as the thing it is being sold as with the next release and not making it public information is a bit a scumbag move tbh.

that is the whole point of GWs Edition cycle and "resets"

not the first time and people should already know by now, just some like to play it down with "you still can use your models", but expect that whatever army you buy now there is a good chance it is obsolete with the next edition and/or you need to buy new stuff to keep going

 Mr Morden wrote:
One of the problems is (IMO) that people seem to want their own subfaction version of specific units to be ever more powerful when compared to the main faction - so whereas orignally a specific Chapter unit might have a very small difference to others now they expectloads of special rules, bonuses and the like to make the super elite version of a super elite unit.

Most of the units being called out are being called out for being "less than" the main codex versions. The new Inner Circle Body Guard Sword unit are less than BGV. The Lion is less than Bobby G.

Clearly they were too powerful, and if they ended up the same, with additional detachments , they would have broken the game. GW is an expiriance company they know what they are doing.

of course it is anti-consumer
but the company will excuse it that they make models for collectors and painters and you buy the models because you like the look and not because you want to play with them

and you still can use them as "count as" models for the generic units

GW will sell you the old Codex today when the new one is released tomorrow, they don't care as long as you buy it

 Mr Morden wrote:
One of the problems is (IMO) that people seem to want their own subfaction version of specific units to be ever more powerful when compared to the main faction - so whereas orignally a specific Chapter unit might have a very small difference to others now they expectloads of special rules, bonuses and the like to make the super elite version of a super elite unit.

The thing is the DA specific units, aside maybe for the knights command unit, are not slightly different then regular marine units. They are either plain worse, or if there is nothing comperable (DA specific skimmers), they are just plain bad. And on top of that there is also a bonus to point hikes. Why use DW knights or termintors ? There was stuff (the Lion) that was not being used, and GW reaction to the fact that he costs too much for the resiliance is to make him less resilient, and not make him deathwing ?
DA fans, are not very often green wing players. They are DW and RW fans. And GW didn't do much to entice anyone to play the army. And it gets even worse, if someone actualy wants to win with his army.

Karol wrote:
Clearly they were too powerful, and if they ended up the same, with additional detachments , they would have broken the game. GW is an expiriance company they know what they are doing.

Not that I'm a competitive player at all, but based on tourney take and win rates, DA was not played often and when it was, win rate was 46% ish - meaning it was low-middle of the pack. i think that is what some of the uproar is about from DA players, that they were already underpowered, and this just makes it worse.

After reading the reviews I packed up my Dark Angels and am listing them for sale. On top of the game going staler then bread left in an Egyptian tomb, the clown team decides that the blandest version of Dark Angels that has ever existed should now be the way forward. Stop the 40K train I'm getting off and you can keep my ticket and luggage.

 kodos wrote:
of course it is anti-consumer
but the company will excuse it that they make models for collectors and painters and you buy the models because you like the look and not because you want to play with them

and you still can use them as "count as" models for the generic units

GW will sell you the old Codex today when the new one is released tomorrow, they don't care as long as you buy it

My friend thought, that because the index has bikers, bikers HQ, sniper scouts as actualy good units. He expended his army in to playing his WS, the way he wanted to play them. He doesn't play anymore, because after the changes he had 1 legal model to play with out of 2000+pts. A primaris chaplain count as with a regular chaplain on bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reefeco wrote:

Karol wrote:
Clearly they were too powerful, and if they ended up the same, with additional detachments , they would have broken the game. GW is an expiriance company they know what they are doing.

Not that I'm a competitive player at all, but based on tourney take and win rates, DA was not played often and when it was, win rate was 46% ish - meaning it was low-middle of the pack. i think that is what some of the uproar is about from DA players, that they were already underpowered, and this just makes it worse.

Who knows what the desing team considers too powerful and too weak. They love to sprinkle +1 rule on eldar to get the army theme just right. While other armies get whacked for an edition or two, often without any reason for it in outside of GW studio win rates.

reefeco wrote:
Still seems underhanded to me - command box it still on sale on the website today, with no notice about not being able to be used in the game. I need to get over it and attribute it to the learning curve, just the principle is very aggravating...

Ok, you really need to stop complaining about this.

1) Because right now, today? That unit is 100% valid game wise. That it's not in the book that's not yet released doesn't change that.
GW is NOT going to stop selling it nor are they going to say anything that'll discourage sales of it.

2) As you're new/returning you may have missed the fact that this is the exact same kit that also makes regular DW termies & DW Knights.
They simply list it once for each unit it can make.
I'd expect that once the book launches they'll remove the Command squad listing.

Well but they do know that they are going to change it. If I sell you land at full price knowing full well that in 12 months the state is going to be building an airport there, and you will lose your investment, then I am kind of a being an donkey-cave doing that. And this would just be one on one interaction. GW does that to thousands of people over and over again.

Question from someone who doesn't have the SM 'dex for this edition - is there a Terminator Command Squad unit in there?

ccs wrote:

reefeco wrote:
Still seems underhanded to me - command box it still on sale on the website today, with no notice about not being able to be used in the game. I need to get over it and attribute it to the learning curve, just the principle is very aggravating...

Ok, you really need to stop complaining about this.

1) Because right now, today? That unit is 100% valid game wise. That it's not in the book that's not yet released doesn't change that.
GW is NOT going to stop selling it nor are they going to say anything that'll discourage sales of it.

2) As you're new/returning you may have missed the fact that this is the exact same kit that also makes regular DW termies & DW Knights.
They simply list it once for each unit it can make.
I'd expect that once the book launches they'll remove the Command squad listing.

Yep. And even after the new book, of course, they're still usable. Deathwing command squads can just be folded into normal terminators without issue. Strikemaster is easily used as a captain now.
The models aren't somehow dead or useless.

Also, its been months since the new terminator kit came out. Half a year. If someone is still buying old terminators this weekend (of all weekends), that's on them.

Dysartes wrote:Question from someone who doesn't have the SM 'dex for this edition - is there a Terminator Command Squad unit in there?

No, but it didn't exist in the index cards or 9th edition either. There is still the terminator ancient (standard bearer) as an individual, however.

I only play local so may just stick with current index and forego the codex supplement

Voss wrote:

ccs wrote:

Ok, you really need to stop complaining about this.

1) Because right now, today? That unit is 100% valid game wise. That it's not in the book that's not yet released doesn't change that.
GW is NOT going to stop selling it nor are they going to say anything that'll discourage sales of it.

2) As you're new/returning you may have missed the fact that this is the exact same kit that also makes regular DW termies & DW Knights.
They simply list it once for each unit it can make.
I'd expect that once the book launches they'll remove the Command squad listing.

Yep. And even after the new book, of course, they're still usable. Deathwing command squads can just be folded into normal terminators without issue. Strikemaster is easily used as a captain now.
The models aren't somehow dead or useless.

Also, its been months since the new terminator kit came out. Half a year. If someone is still buying old terminators this weekend (of all weekends), that's on them.

You agree to the argument that as of today, the models are still usable as what they are for a couple more hours, so it is okay to still sell them. And in the next sentence "it's on them" if they still buy those models, despite a related kit being sold already for some time? So should people buy the models until they are out of the rules or look for first signs of them being phased out?

It comes off as a bit cynical to shift the blame to the customer here imho.

a_typical_hero wrote:

Voss wrote:

ccs wrote:

Ok, you really need to stop complaining about this.

1) Because right now, today? That unit is 100% valid game wise. That it's not in the book that's not yet released doesn't change that.
GW is NOT going to stop selling it nor are they going to say anything that'll discourage sales of it.

2) As you're new/returning you may have missed the fact that this is the exact same kit that also makes regular DW termies & DW Knights.
They simply list it once for each unit it can make.
I'd expect that once the book launches they'll remove the Command squad listing.

Yep. And even after the new book, of course, they're still usable. Deathwing command squads can just be folded into normal terminators without issue. Strikemaster is easily used as a captain now.
The models aren't somehow dead or useless.

Also, its been months since the new terminator kit came out. Half a year. If someone is still buying old terminators this weekend (of all weekends), that's on them.

You agree to the argument that as of today, the models are still usable as what they are for a couple more hours, so it is okay to still sell them. And in the next sentence "it's on them" if they still buy those models, despite a related kit being sold already for some time? So should people buy the models until they are out of the rules or look for first signs of them being phased out?

It comes off as a bit cynical to shift the blame to the customer here imho.

No. I agree that the models are still usable as what they are (terminators) indefinitely.

Its entirely on the customer, with new terminators that have been out for months, if they deliberately choose to buy old versions of the models that they (presumably) don't like as much.
If they want to buy the older kit so their new unit will fit in better with their old units, they have zero problems at all.

I just find the idea that someone is going to sit through a queue exactly on the pre-order day of the box with the new Knights and upgrades sprue just to buy the old kit to be an absurdist complaint for the sake of complaining.

I just find the idea that someone is going to sit through a queue exactly on the pre-order day of the box with the new Knights and upgrades sprue just to buy the old kit to be an absurdist complaint for the sake of complaining.

reefeco wrote:

that is the whole point of GWs Edition cycle and "resets"

not the first time and people should already know by now, just some like to play it down with "you still can use your models", but expect that whatever army you buy now there is a good chance it is obsolete with the next edition and/or you need to buy new stuff to keep going