Anyone else find the unit load out of Guardsmen really bloated for no reason?

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**bibotot**

Mod edit - link removed

So here is the prime example of the Astra Militarum GM squad and their free wargear option.

Because they can get a special weapon for free, who would ever play the sniper rifle over the plasma gun or meltagun?

A lot of options aren't really options because they are just straight upgrades for free such as a vox caster and a heavy weapon for 2 lasguns.

A Sergeant can exchange laspistol for a bolt pistol. But who would ever get that over the boltgun which is also free? You aren't fighting in melee with GM.

**Dudeface**

bibotot wrote:
Mod edit - link removed

So here is the prime example of the Astra Militarum GM squad and their free wargear option.

Because they can get a special weapon for free, who would ever play the sniper rifle over the plasma gun or meltagun?

A lot of options aren't really options because they are just straight upgrades for free such as a vox caster and a heavy weapon for 2 lasguns.

A Sergeant can exchange laspistol for a bolt pistol. But who would ever get that over the boltgun which is also free? You aren't fighting in melee with GM.

Well given the melee options used to cost points, I take it you wouldn't have paid 10 pts for a power fist?

Simply put it's GW half-assing something. They haven't taken the time to give all the various options parity of value, but aren't charging for them. They haven't made the heavy/special a forced choice, but done nothing to reward not taking them.

Either itemised costing, or more effort into the unit entry would have solved it, but here we are.

**Big Mac**

GW is making rules to fit the kit loadout availability, like Catachan Infantry only have flamers due to the regular kit only comes with flamers. Editions and rules change at a rapid pace compare to prior, so I suggest you just make what's cool, and swap out members as necessary. It's a IG army, you will need a lot of bodies.

**a_typical_hero**

That is 10th edition.

The current system is either missing parity between options or associated costs.

Right now you would harmstring yourself if you would not kit out your squad with everything that they can take.

Nobody can tell if or when GW will switch back to points and then you will be stuck with models you might not want to or can use anymore.

**Kid_Kyoto**

GW has never gotten it right, and maybe never will.

If 10 Guardsmen cost 50 points how much should their plasma gun be? How much should their lascannon be? And at what price does the humble Grenade Launcher become worth taking?

They never got it right.

Maybe it's not so bad. The game still has way too much granularity for a mass combat game. In RT and 2nd when an army might have 25 models it was fine, but with armies of 100-200 bodies maybe the best thing would be if all IG squads just chose between Flamers and Plasma and ignore the rest

**Dolnikan**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
GW has never gotten it right, and maybe never will.

If 10 Guardsmen cost 50 points how much should their plasma gun be? How much should their lascannon be? And at what price does the humble Grenade Launcher become worth taking?

They never got it right.

Maybe it's not so bad. The game still has way too much granularity for a mass combat game. In RT and 2nd when an army might have 25 models it was fine, but with armies of 100-200 bodies maybe the best thing would be if all IG squads just chose between Flamers and Plasma and ignore the rest

I can't help but agree. There are so many options and honestly, at the scale 40k currently is at, it shouldn't matter. Like the bolt pistol and laspistol thing. Those are incredibly similar in stats and it really doesn't make sense to try to differentiate them. And indeed, they've never managed to create any sort of system for giving 'fair' points to all these tiny differences. In the end, I think they made the right decision to just not bother.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Exactly. For Necromunda the question of whether Sven has a laspistol, autopistol, stubpistol or bolt pistol is Very Important.

When there's 200 guys on the table, no one cares.

I liked how when 40k moved from 2nd to 3rd they just said all rifles are lasguns, all pistols are laspistols, all power weapons are the same, it's just a cosmetic difference.

By 7th and 8th it was a total mess, and even now there's just more options than the kits can handle (IG have not had heavy weapons in a basic squad set since 2nd edition).

**Slipspace**

a_typical_hero wrote:
That is 10th edition.

The current system is either missing parity between options or associated costs.

Right now you would harmstring yourself if you would not kit out your squad with everything that they can take.

Nobody can tell if or when GW will switch back to points and then you will be stuck with models you might not want to or can use anymore.

Exactly. As an added bonus it also ends up slowing the game down massively as multiple squads now have to go through lots of different weapon profiles every time they attack. In the case of Gurdsmen it's often for no effect whatsoever.

**vipoid**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
GW has never gotten it right, and maybe never will.

If 10 Guardsmen cost 50 points how much should their plasma gun be? How much should their lascannon be? And at what price does the humble Grenade Launcher become worth taking?

8th actually had a pretty good balance towards the end, as I recall.

3pt Grenade Launchers definitely made me consider them - especially on Veterans as they were almost 1/5th the price of Plasma.

I think meltas were the only weapon where the cost seemed out of whack with everything else.

**a_typical_hero**

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Exactly. For Necromunda the question of whether Sven has a laspistol, autopistol, stubpistol or bolt pistol is Very Important.

When there's 200 guys on the table, no one cares.

I have to disagree. While I want to see weapon consolidation in some parts (a power sword should work like a power sword regardless of the user and not be a "Vigil weapon" here and a "Cursed weapon" there), a big part of the appeal of 40k as a game has always been the option to customise your models to a maybe silly degree.

There are games like Epic (or Legion Imperialis now) that are more strategy focused and have less RPG in them, but I want my 40k to keep this kink.

**Karol**

Big Mac wrote:
GW is making rules to fit the kit loadout availability, like Catachan Infantry only have flamers due to the regular kit only comes with flamers. Editions and rules change at a rapid pace compare to prior, so I suggest you just make what's cool, and swap out members as necessary. It's a IG army, you will need a lot of bodies.

Then someone should tell them that in each GK box, there are thunder hammers on the sprues. Alongside multiple other different melee weapons. They somehow can give some armies a page of wargear option for one unit, while others get a "power weapon".

Exactly. As an added bonus it also ends up slowing the game down massively as multiple squads now have to go through lots of different weapon profiles every time they attack. In the case of Gurdsmen it's often for no effect whatsoever.

But if the game takes 2:15 instead of 1:30, GW can tell you that at the price per hour of play they gave your more. Also more different stuff, means more stuff to paint and people can no longer skip painting armies, unless they armies somehow has a 70% win rate.

**PenitentJake**

Dolnikan wrote:

at the scale 40k currently is at, it shouldn't matter.

While 2k points is considered the tournament scale, I'd like to point out that 40k itself has no scale, or rather, any scale between 1k-3k based on what players agree to, according to the current official rules... Which I'd also point out that some people don't obey. I'm in a 500 point escalation league, despite the 10h ed rules saying specifically that minimum game size for 40k is 1k points.

a_typical_hero wrote:

There are games like Epic (or Legion Imperialis now) that are more strategy focused and have less RPG in them, but I want my 40k to keep this kink.

Exactly! This is why I find every wargame except 40k boring as stink. They may be mechanically superior, easier to play and perhaps better in other ways besides, but none of it matters to me if it doesn't have RPG hooks. 10th has removed many RPG hooks- I still like 9th better I think- it was the edition that was closest to an RPG (caveat: the original Rogue Trader was as much or more of an RPG, but there were so few factions and models at the time that I can't really think of it as 40k).

Let's look specifically at that las pistol/ bolt pistol piece.

From 0-6 xp, I'm giving all my dudes laspistols because 0-6 xp = green unit ie. just got promoted to that rank and is fighting one of their first (if not THE first) battles in their role.

Whether or not the Boltpistol is much of an upgrade, it is something that I would see as being more appropriate for the Battle-Hardened rank.

Another way I like to use loadout as RP; lets say I have a unit with the laspistol, and I defeat a unit with a bolt pistol. I'm likely to swap weapons after the fight to indicate that I kept your gun as a trophy. And you can bet that when you face me again, I'll remind you that the reason I have it is because I looted it from your defeated unit the last time you crossed my path.

Certainly, not everyone plays this way- I'm an extreme minority. But the reason I play 40k at all is that it is possible to play this way. If I couldn't, this warGAME would be as dull as every other WARgame.

**Wyldhunt**

a_typical_hero wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Exactly. For Necromunda the question of whether Sven has a laspistol, autopistol, stubpistol or bolt pistol is Very Important.

When there's 200 guys on the table, no one cares.
I have to disagree. While I want to see weapon consolidation in some parts (a power sword should work like a power sword regardless of the user and not be a "Vigil weapon" here and a "Cursed weapon" there), a big part of the appeal of 40k as a game has always been the option to customise your models to a maybe silly degree.

There are games like Epic (or Legion Imperialis now) that are more strategy focused and have less RPG in them, but I want my 40k to keep this kink.

This is partly why I increasingly feel like 40k would work better if it focused on smaller games (like 500-1k points). Few enough units to keep bookkeeping to a minimum even if you had those "RPG elements" or mechanics that require some amount of tracking. Ideally, this would also mean that games would play faster.

My hope would be that smaller games, even if no better balanced than what we have now, would take some of the sting out of a loss and give people more chances to pull out some wins. It's the difference between spending two hours losing once versus spending that same time losing twice and also pulling out a win you can feel good about. Multiple smaller games would also make it possible to swap out units between games to try and make your armies a better fit for each other. This was sort of my experience with 7th edition's version of Combat Patrol, and I always wished GW would embrace those smaller, faster games a bit more.

**Kanluwen**

Big Mac wrote:
GW is making rules to fit the kit loadout availability, like Catachan Infantry only have flamers due to the regular kit only comes with flamers. Editions and rules change at a rapid pace compare to prior, so I suggest you just make what's cool, and swap out members as necessary. It's a IG army, you will need a lot of bodies.

Incorrect.

The Infantry Squad is a "legacy" option at this point. It was when the Guard book dropped at the end of 9E, and it will likely remain so unless we get a legitimate boxed set to tie in to them. No single box provides all of the options, and none of them provide a Heavy Weapons Team.

**ccs**

bibotot wrote:
Mod edit - link removed

So here is the prime example of the Astra Militarum GM squad and their free wargear option.

Because they can get a special weapon for free, who would ever play the sniper rifle over the plasma gun or meltagun?

A lot of options aren't really options because they are just straight upgrades for free such as a vox caster and a heavy weapon for 2 lasguns.

A Sergeant can exchange laspistol for a bolt pistol. But who would ever get that over the boltgun which is also free? You aren't fighting in melee with GM.

Well, personally I have A LOT of metal guard. And I play WYSIWYG (assuming the rules allow for the bit of gear in question).

Some of the Sgts came sculpted with LP. Some with BP. some officers with BG. Some with plasma pistols..... Same concerning power swords, chain swords, & fists.
I could go through & mod each one to be carrying whatever you think is optimal. And I have on a few . But you know what? Overall it's never been worth my time & effort.
So with the exception of the lucky few? I play them as is. If that means I pay a few pts in some edition then so be it.

**PenitentJake**

Wyldhunt wrote:

This is partly why I increasingly feel like 40k would work better if it focused on smaller games (like 500-1k points). Few enough units to keep bookkeeping to a minimum even if you had those "RPG elements" or mechanics that require some amount of tracking. Ideally, this would also mean that games would play faster.

I agree whole heartedly, but what I wonder is that if that's how you feel, why didn't you just do that?

Because games as small as 25 PL and as large as 150 PL were book legal in 9th, and 1k-3k points IS book legal in 10th.

It is absolutely not in the rulebook anywhere that 2k is standard army size.

In 9th, I played exclusively 25 PL games, and I think it's one of the reasons I loved the game. I spent all my Crusade requisition points on upgrades- none of my Crusades ever increased their supply limit (except when necessary to accommodate upgrades).

There was nothing that GW is in control of that stops you from playing at 1k, or even 500 points.

**JNAProductions**

PenitentJake wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:

This is partly why I increasingly feel like 40k would work better if it focused on smaller games (like 500-1k points). Few enough units to keep bookkeeping to a minimum even if you had those "RPG elements" or mechanics that require some amount of tracking. Ideally, this would also mean that games would play faster.

I agree whole heartedly, but what I wonder is that if that's how you feel, why didn't you just do that?

Because games as small as 25 PL and as large as 150 PL were book legal in 9th, and 1k-3k points IS book legal in 10th.

It is absolutely not in the rulebook anywhere that 2k is standard army size.

In 9th, I played exclusively 25 PL games, and I think it's one of the reasons I loved the game. I spent all my Crusade requisition points on upgrades- none of my Crusades ever increased their supply limit (except when necessary to accommodate upgrades).

There was nothing that GW is in control of that stops you from playing at 1k, or even 500 points.

You need to find other players who want to play those lower points values, though.

**Wyldhunt**

PenitentJake wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:

This is partly why I increasingly feel like 40k would work better if it focused on smaller games (like 500-1k points). Few enough units to keep bookkeeping to a minimum even if you had those "RPG elements" or mechanics that require some amount of tracking. Ideally, this would also mean that games would play faster.

I agree whole heartedly, but what I wonder is that if that's how you feel, why didn't you just do that?

Oh I do. 1k - 1500 is definitely my preferred game size these days. Sometimes my opponents will request higher points games, but 1k or 1500 is what I usually suggest initially.

But what I'm proposing is that the game be designed around games of 1k-ish points in a way that takes advantage of the small unit count to incorporate slightly more book-keepy mechanics. Things like blips or velocity mechanics or status conditions might be too much when you have 4,000 points on the table, but not when each player only has a handful of squads.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

One thing I always wondered, why have a missile launcher, AND a grenade launcher? Reduce bloat and make them both the same profile, cost 10 points, and hey presto, instant favorite squad weapon. Flamers, Sniper Rifles, and Meltas, are all useles and deserve to be cast into the midden heap along with Standards, and medic packs. You Get Plasma, Nade Laucher, or radio pack. The end.

**catbarf**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Flamers, Sniper Rifles, and Meltas, are all useles and deserve to be cast into the midden heap along with Standards, and medic packs.

Or you could make them valuable and worth taking, instead of making design decisions based myopically on the current state of balance.

**a_typical_hero**

They are useless because nobody bothered to give them a use for the past couple editions (with the exception of Meltas).

If we start to take away options based on sub par rules, we will have the game trimmed back to 3rd edition index within two rule cycles.

**waefre_1**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
One thing I always wondered, why have a missile launcher, AND a grenade launcher?

Because one was Assault and one was Heavy. If you can't understand why that might matter, perhaps you should take the opportunity to learn?

**ccs**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
One thing I always wondered, why have a missile launcher, AND a grenade launcher? Reduce bloat and make them both the same profile, cost 10 points, and hey presto, instant favorite squad weapon. Flamers, Sniper Rifles, and Meltas, are all useles and deserve to be cast into the midden heap along with Standards, and medic packs. You Get Plasma, Nade Laucher, or radio pack. The end.

You think this because you don't know how to play Guard....

Each weapon has it's uses & there's proper times to use it. It's your job as a player to figure those things out.
For ex, the sniper rifle - if I've got a squad that I intend to have sitting around in the backfield guarding an objective, screening deep-strike, holding a corner in preparation for certain secondaries, providing mortar fire, etc? Yes, I'll consider giving them a sniper rifle. Why not? It's longer range than the lasguns that won't be doing anything & now here in 10e A) doesn't cost me anything pts wise, B) thanks to precision can actually do it's job.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Ok, for all the people who think my comment rediculous, please provide evidence of the times you've used and mained the Grenade Launcher in squads in the last 3 editions. Or the Flamer. Or the Missile launcher. You Can't. Because you haven't. No one has. No one ever has outside of thematic plot games. The grenade launcher has been worthless since 8th, likely before it. Everything has been worthless in comparrison to the almighty plasma rifle. There is no argument, and there never has been. As far as launchers, I suppose we'll all just pretend that Mortar spam hasn't been the Guard defacto Scion Command squads are better with Sniper rifles than Plasma Rifles.

**JNAProductions**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, for all the people who think my comment rediculous, please provide evidence of the times you've used and mained the Grenade Launcher in squads in the last 3 editions. Or the Flamer. Or the Missile launcher. You Can't. Because you haven't. No one has. No one ever has outside of thematic plot games. The grenade launcher has been worthless since 8th, likely before it. Everything has been worthless in comparrison to the almighty plasma rifle. There is no argument, and there never has been. As far as launchers, I suppose we'll all just pretend that Mortar spam hasn't been the Guard defacto Scion Command squads are better with Sniper rifles than Plasma Rifles.

"GW did it badly" is not the same "Is a bad idea."

**PenitentJake**

a_typical_hero wrote:
They are useless because nobody bothered to give them a use for the past couple editions (with the exception of Meltas).

If we start to take away options based on sub par rules, we will have the game trimmed back to 3rd edition index within two rule cycles.

Sniper rifles do have Precision, and given this edition's reliance on character buffs, I wouldn't say that's useless.

**ccs**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, for all the people who think my comment rediculous, please provide evidence of the times you've used and mained the Grenade Launcher in squads in the last 3 editions. Or the Flamer. Or the Missile launcher. You Can't. Because you haven't. No one has. No one ever has outside of thematic plot games.

Nope. The real reason I can't is because I've just never thought to document it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The grenade launcher has been worthless since 8th, likely before it. Everything has been worthless in comparrison to the almighty plasma rifle. There is no argument, and there never has been. As far as launchers, I suppose we'll all just pretend that Mortar spam hasn't been the Guard defacto

1st, what's mortar spam have to do with anything? You can spam mortars & still have plenty of room in a force for other heavy weapons. And you should - because mortars don't really cut it as AT weapons.
2nd, have you actually looked at the stats for a GL firing Krak?

Would you like to know why the grenade launcher & melta feature prominently in my Valhallan force though?
Because waaay back in 2e (& into 3e) when I was building my metal Guard regiments, each regiment only included sculpts for 3/4 special weapons. The Vallhallens? Guess what? They lacked the plasma gun. Sure, I could (and did) convert a few plasma gunners. But the GLs & meltas are still the most common special weapons in my Vallhallen case.

Flamers? Yes, my Valhallens use those as well. I typically form them into vet/command squads with multiples when the editions allow, though there's a few in actual infantry squads.

And the sniper rifle? wasn't even an option back then. and I've never gotten around to converting any for the Valhallens. Though I might here in 10e.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scion Command squads are better with Sniper rifles than Plasma Rifles.

And how many sniper rifles can a Scions command squad take?

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

ccs wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, for all the people who think my comment rediculous, please provide evidence of the times you've used and mained the Grenade Launcher in squads in the last 3 editions. Or the Flamer. Or the Missile launcher. You Can't. Because you haven't. No one has. No one ever has outside of thematic plot games.

Nope. The real reason I can't is because I've just never thought to document it. (RIGHT. And the reason I can't introduce you to my girlfriend is because she's busy this weekend modeling in Milan)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The grenade launcher has been worthless since 8th, likely before it. Everything has been worthless in comparrison to the almighty plasma rifle. There is no argument, and there never has been. As far as launchers, I suppose we'll all just pretend that Mortar spam hasn't been the Guard defacto

1st, what's mortar spam have to do with anything? You can spam mortars & still have plenty of room in a force for other heavy weapons. And you should - because mortars don't really cut it as AT weapons.
2nd, have you actually looked at the stats for a GL firing Krak? Because the mantra of the Guard for the past several editions has been DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA. Who cares if it's not S8 AP4, if you hit the tank with 36 buckets of dice, it'll do more damage in the long run anyway, and it's better at clearing the infantry off objectives. The biggest red herring of Guard has always been going for AT weapons, when they have FRFSRF. The big scary LC or AC have always been worthless compared to the HB or Mortar. Because more shots always means more damage for the long run with guard. Point in case: The Executioner LRBT. Worthless compared to the Punisher.

Would you like to know why the grenade launcher & melta feature prominently in my Valhallan force though?
Because waaay back in 2e (& into 3e) when I was building my metal Guard regiments, each regiment only included sculpts for 3/4 special weapons. The Vallhallens? Guess what? They lacked the plasma gun. Sure, I could (and did) convert a few plasma gunners. But the GLs & meltas are still the most common special weapons in my Vallhallen case.

Flamers? Yes, my Valhallens use those as well. I typically form them into vet/command squads with multiples when the editions allow, though there's a few in actual infantry squads.

And the sniper rifle? wasn't even an option back then. and I've never gotten around to converting any for the Valhallens. Though I might here in 10e. (So your argument against my statement that they haven't been used in the last 3 editions, is: WELL THEY WERE USED in 3rd EDITION in the 80s!)? Really?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Scion Command squads are better with Sniper rifles than Plasma Rifles.

And how many sniper rifles can a Scions command squad take?

Who cares? Point was, you can air drop your 4 man murder squads within RF range of Plasma on turn 1, but not Melta rule range, and outside Flamer Range. Yes, they COULD take sniper Rifles in 8th. But no one ever did, because Plasma was better in ever aspect.

**catbarf**

I used flamers in 8th because they were better than plasma guns against my buddies' GEQs.

I used grenade launchers on my Veterans because they were dirt cheap and put out a decent amount of firepower. Plasma guns were too expensive on a BS3+ platform. Triple meltaguns was better for economically killing vehicles. Cost provided a disincentive for using the most powerful option, imagine that.

If I wanted to spam Scion Command Squads as special weapon teams, I'd have taken plasma guns. Good thing there was more to the game than that.

To be blunt, Fezzik, you're demonstrating why a hypercompetitive lens doesn't produce good design. The right solution to an unbalanced game state isn't to just delete all the options except the absolute most efficient ones, it's to address the imbalance so all the options are worth considering, and quash those unintended exploits like using Command Squads as four-man murder squads.

**waefre_1**

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, for all the people who think my comment rediculous, please provide evidence of the times you've used and mained the Grenade Launcher in squads in the last 3 editions. Or the Flamer. Or the Missile launcher. You Can't. Because you haven't. No one has. No one ever has outside of thematic plot games. The grenade launcher has been worthless since 8th, likely before it. Everything has been worthless in comparrison to the almighty plasma rifle. There is no argument, and there never has been. As far as launchers, I suppose we'll all just pretend that Mortar spam hasn't been the Guard defacto Scion Command squads are better with Sniper rifles than Plasma Rifles.

1) I haven't played any games in the past three editions, but the overwhelming majority of the lists I cooked up included Missile Launchers and/or Grenade Launchers as a mid-price jack-of-all-trades heavy/special weapon choice (and the core list I ended up making purchases for had multiple ML Heavy Weapon teams, partly because I didn't want all my AT in one profile).
2) You failing the INT check to remember or come up with a reason to use something doesn't mean that no such reason exists, it just means you need to stop treating INT as a dump stat.
3) Last I checked, Mortar Spam hasn't been a thing since 8e, possibly early 9e.
4) (you)
5) Prior to 8e, when Split Fire was a rare thing, Grenade Launchers and Missile Launchers were solid choices because they gave a squad the capacity to threaten tanks and monsters, but unlike Melta/Lascannons could still be effectively used against infantry targets. This meant that you wouldn't have to choose between the AT gun wasting a shot severely overkilling a gretchin or the 9 other guns sitting around picking their noses because Gunner Dave might get distracted by all them flashing lights.