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I've been thinking about craftworlders and how their units have risen and fallen over time. I'm curious to hear about my fellow space elf players' favorite versions of specific units. What did you like about them, and why? And because a little wishlisting is always fun, what would you like to see done with them in the future? A few of my thoughts to get the ball rolling:

Dire Avengers - I still love their 4th/5th edition incarnation. Bladestorm was just a cool mechanic (sacrificing one shot over the course of 2 turns to up your offense on one turn), and you could use your choice of exarch upgrades to potentially turn the squad into a tarpit (Defend + shimmershield) or just a well-rounded squad with some cheeky instant death mixed in (dire sword). While their current super-shuriken rules are fine, I'd love to see them regain some real versatility.

Warp Spiders - Though annoying for opponents, their 7th edition version with the panic button flicker jump reaction (you could move them each time they were targeted for shooting) is the only time they've felt as mobile as fluff and cinematics portray them. I feel like there's got to be a decent way to tone down the reactive flicker jump but bring it back in some form so that they feel like they're using their teleportation to stay alive and not just as an overly-complicated jump pack. Maybe only let them use the reactive jump if they didn't teleport during their previous movement phase?

Banshees - Okay, here me out. Their 9th edition version was too much. It was like someone read every single suggestion from a "how to make banshees better" thread and just dumped them all into the same data sheet. Buuuut, they had the rules to make several cool builds work. They felt fast. They could be "tanky" in melee via to-hit penalties and FNP, they hit hard enough to threaten heavy infantry, you could build a crowd clearing exarch or a headhunter/vehicle-threatening/magic scream exarch... I don't want quite as many of those rules stuffed into one unit as we had in 9th, but I do kind of wish I still had the option to combine a couple of those rules based on wargear choices.

Swooping Hawks - 7th edition. Between their mobility, their "splitfire" grenade packs, their sunrifle with the blind rule, and proper haywire grenades, this unit felt really satisfying to use even though they normally weren't doing a ton of concentrated damage. They were a good, versatile unit in an army of mostly specialists. Plus, Baharroth with his hit & run, blinding melee attacks, and extra grenade pack made a squad of hawks even better at all the above.

Autarchs - 7th edition. As much as I approve of them *finally* getting some rules that interact well with stratagems and CP, their old reserves manipulation rules had a more distinctive flavor. What they have now is kind of a copy+paste of something a lot of armies have. Plus you could mix and match wargear freely while also having access to lots of neat relics and warlord traits to customize them even further. I think I'd rather GW stick closer to what we have now going forward, but there is a charm to the older autarchs that the current ones lack. Maybe it's mostly just the way they're stuck hanging out with guardians.

Dark Reapers - 8th edition... if we ignore the ynnari stuff. They could threaten infantry. They could threaten vehicles. They were expensive but worth it. Post-Psychic Awakening, you could build them to fill a variety of roles ranging from character snipers to horde clearers to tank busters. If GW had just limited their squad size to 5 max in 8th (so that you couldn't get quite as much value out of a super-buffed squad), I think they'd have been mostly fine. I'd like to see them grow some anti-tank teeth back if nothing else. Having a cost-effective squad of infantry for anti-tank makes it easier to not spam lances or dragons.

Guardian Defenders - 10th. They've never really clicked very well with the rest of the army before. They were a squad statted like guardsmen with shorter-ranged guns in an army whose fluff is all about being unable to waste lives. These days, they shoot reasonably far, have reasonably thick armor, and their fate die generation rule gives them a way to support the army that encourages you to use them to take up space and *doesn't* make you compare their killing power directly with other units. That said, I still miss warlock sergeants, and I think this unit could still be seen as good even if we reduced their BS back to 4+. (Maybe keep it 3+ for the big gun due to the targeting visor/targeting systems or whatever.)

Shadow Spectres - Objectively, the 8th, 9th, or 10th edition versions are much more practical and user-friendly than previous versions, but I really miss that quirky ghostlight mechanic where they could all link their shots into a single anti-tank attack. I feel like we could bring that back as an exarch power or something.

Unfortunately, I am not qualified to provide the feedback you're looking for. I only played Eldar in 5th and 6th. So most of my experience was with the 4th edition book. Because of the meta at the time, my lists were aspect lite. In my Footdar phase I would run one squad of Dire Avengers, some Guardians, Rangers, Wraithlords, Eldrad, Avatar and Warp Spiders.

Warp Spiders were always great fun. I almost always loaded up the exarch with double spinners, powerblades and withdraw. I always wanted to run an Autarch with them, but never got around to it. I needed the Avatar for fearless and Eldrad for the psychic powers. Dire Avengers were always the defensive tarpit version relying on fortune to keep them in the fight.

I made a lot of lists that included Banshees, but I can only remember putting them on the table once. I forget how long it took for GW to FAQ their masks so they could actually assault into cover like they were supposed to.

In 6th I started running Fire Dragons in a bastion or aegis defense line with the quad gun because flyers. Crackshot FD exarch hitting on 2s denying cover (jink) saves was a tax I felt I has to pay to deal with them. I also experimented with allying in Tau. It never worked out quite right and failed spectacularly once in a tournament when a 20 man Guardian blob, crisis suit commander, warlock, and two farseers got swept after losing combat by 2 wounds. Turns out that Embolden is a poor substitute for Fearless. Who knew.

Once the 6th edition codex came out, I started running DAVU wave serpents and then I could actually beat those leaf blower lists. These lists tended not to feature any other aspects.

Rangers/Pathfinders in 3rd in the Alaitoc list Ranger disruption table.

The 3rd edition Banshees are my favourite eldar models, and the ones since feel like a step backwards in their design.

Really? Their left arms are weird. I prefer the 4th edition ones.

I have a favorite Aspect, but not really a favorite rules version of them.

And that Aspect is.... Firedragons.
Ever since I started playing this game I've loved the melta-gun. And here is a unit where every member carries one!
So naturally they were the unit I based my list around in 3e when I built an actual Eldar army.
(Before that in 2e I just had a random sampling of Eldar units/models, mostly as paint projects)

The reason I don't really have a favorite version of them is likely due to having only played them in 3 editions.
●Like I said above, in 2e my Eldar were an eclectic paint project for the most part. Now & then I'd ally in a unit of something, but I never played an entire Eldar force. And it was so long ago I've forgotten any edition specific rules for the unit.
●The bulk of my time playing Eldar is 3e/4e. They were not my main army though. I don't recall any edition specific rules that'd elevate one of these editions over the other. Or over 10e.
●Then the Eldar sat in storage 5th - 9th. I didn't even get the various codexes.
●10e, sept/Oct. After a 5 editions long hiatus my Eldar have returned to the table top.
And you know what? They still don't have an edition specific unit rule of any real note.

Maybe Firedragons did something cooler during 5th - 9th edition?? I don't know.
But it's never really been about thier specific rules for me. I'm just happy to have a unit of space elves running around each toting a melta weapon.

 Arschbombe wrote:
Really? Their left arms are weird. I prefer the 4th edition ones.

We talking about rules or models? Both have been all over the place over the years….

 Nevelon wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:
Really? Their left arms are weird. I prefer the 4th edition ones.

We talking about rules or models? Both have been all over the place over the years….

Models. Samus said he liked the 3rd edition versions best. Those have the, to me at least, weird accordion bits on their sword arms.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:
Really? Their left arms are weird. I prefer the 4th edition ones.

We talking about rules or models? Both have been all over the place over the years….

Models. Samus said he liked the 3rd edition versions best. Those have the, to me at least, weird accordion bits on their sword arms.

Ahh, right.

IIRC the 3rd ed banshees had helmets that were a little too much, IMHO. Arms didn’t bother me. IIRC there were a lot of 3rd resculps that were a step back from the prior models, and improved later. But were only in production for a short bit.

ccs wrote:
I have a favorite Aspect, but not really a favorite version of them.

And that Aspect is.... Firedragons.
...
Maybe Firedragons did something cooler during 5th - 9th edition?? I don't know.
But it's never really been about thier specific rules for me. I'm just happy to have a unit of space elves running around each toting a melta weapon.

In most editions special rules for Aspects were attached to the Exarch and not the squad itself. In 4th, the Exarch could take Tank Hunters which was actually a USR that allowed rerolls vs vehicles and Crack Shot which denied cover saves to vehicles. In 9th, there were three rules an Exarch could take: Blazing Fury, Burning Heat, and Dragon's Bite. Those rules are gone in 10th, but the squad itself retained a rule called Assured Destruction that allowed rerolling 1s on wound rolls vs vehicles and monsters.

 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC there were a lot of 3rd resculps that were a step back from the prior models, and improved later. But were only in production for a short bit.

...the infamous Striking Bunnies?

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC there were a lot of 3rd resculps that were a step back from the prior models, and improved later. But were only in production for a short bit.

...the infamous Striking Bunnies?

IIRC the scorpions were the worst, but it was bad all around.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Eldar

Here is a good link if people want to see the evolution of the range.

The 2nd ed Warp Spiders. Hooo-boy those were nasty units. Each one firing a Heavy Flamer template (much bigger than the flamer template most of y'all are used to) of monofilament nastiness. Prepare to get shredded.

 Arschbombe wrote:
Really? Their left arms are weird. I prefer the 4th edition ones.

Even the left sword arm. For me the 3rd edition banshees were miles better.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The 2nd ed Warp Spiders. Hooo-boy those were nasty units. Each one firing a Heavy Flamer template (much bigger than the flamer template most of y'all are used to) of monofilament nastiness. Prepare to get shredded.

And yet they were never cool enough to get new sculpts.

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The 2nd ed Warp Spiders. Hooo-boy those were nasty units. Each one firing a Heavy Flamer template (much bigger than the flamer template most of y'all are used to) of monofilament nastiness. Prepare to get shredded.

And yet they were never cool enough to get new sculpts.

Because their original sculpts are still dope AF.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The 2nd ed Warp Spiders. Hooo-boy those were nasty units. Each one firing a Heavy Flamer template (much bigger than the flamer template most of y'all are used to) of monofilament nastiness. Prepare to get shredded.

And yet they were never cool enough to get new sculpts.

Because their original sculpts are still dope AF.

No lie.

While it would be nice to get modern plastics cut with the same aesthetics as the old metals, they - like most of the eldar range- have held up surprisingly well over the years.

Guardian Jetbikes when "Troops" existed & was important designation, because you could take this Jetbikes as Troops and it was so broken. A unit that is quite tough to kill, can shoot quite well, can score Objectives, and had crazy movement was so silly to add to the game, but a lot of fun for Craftworlds players lol

Also I don't care about this "Windriders" nonsense. They are Guardian Jetbikes & will always be that to me xD

 Turnip Monster wrote:
Guardian Jetbikes when "Troops" existed & was important designation, because you could take this Jetbikes as Troops and it was so broken. A unit that is quite tough to kill, can shoot quite well, can score Objectives, and had crazy movement was so silly to add to the game, but a lot of fun for Craftworlds players lol

Also I don't care about this "Windriders" nonsense. They are Guardian Jetbikes & will always be that to me xD

When scoring was done by troops at the end of the game. So they could hang out safe in reserves for most of it, show up late, and turbo-boost to where they needed to be. Little broken.

Moreso when they could all pack scatterlasers, instead of 1 in 3 having a shurcannon.

SamusDrake wrote:
The 3rd edition Banshees are my favourite eldar models, and the ones since feel like a step backwards in their design.

Not sure about favourite Eldar models, but probably favourite banshees. They are undoubtedly a bit weird - but they have character that the rest have lacked.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Turnip Monster wrote:
Guardian Jetbikes when "Troops" existed & was important designation, because you could take this Jetbikes as Troops and it was so broken. A unit that is quite tough to kill, can shoot quite well, can score Objectives, and had crazy movement was so silly to add to the game, but a lot of fun for Craftworlds players lol

Also I don't care about this "Windriders" nonsense. They are Guardian Jetbikes & will always be that to me xD

When scoring was done by troops at the end of the game. So they could hang out safe in reserves for most of it, show up late, and turbo-boost to where they needed to be. Little broken.

Moreso when they could all pack scatterlasers, instead of 1 in 3 having a shurcannon.

Tbf, the pre-scatbike version was exactly as tough as tactical marines and had guns equivalent to bolters but without the option to shoot at a distance. So the end of game turbo boost dive was basically a case of keeping a unit out of the game as long as possible, giving up their shooting to gain the equivalent of standing in cover, and then hoping that the game randomly ended that turn. An annoying tactic, but let's not pretend pre-scat jetbikes were some kind of deathstar wreckingball.

But yes, they will always be guardian jetbikes to me, and the all-scatters-squad was a problematic choice. Especially given that it lead to bikes no longer being troops.

+1 For "Guardian Jetbikes".

"Windriders" should have been a Nurgle unit.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 Turnip Monster wrote:
Guardian Jetbikes when "Troops" existed & was important designation, because you could take this Jetbikes as Troops and it was so broken. A unit that is quite tough to kill, can shoot quite well, can score Objectives, and had crazy movement was so silly to add to the game, but a lot of fun for Craftworlds players lol

Also I don't care about this "Windriders" nonsense. They are Guardian Jetbikes & will always be that to me xD

When scoring was done by troops at the end of the game. So they could hang out safe in reserves for most of it, show up late, and turbo-boost to where they needed to be. Little broken.

Moreso when they could all pack scatterlasers, instead of 1 in 3 having a shurcannon.

Tbf, the pre-scatbike version was exactly as tough as tactical marines and had guns equivalent to bolters but without the option to shoot at a distance. So the end of game turbo boost dive was basically a case of keeping a unit out of the game as long as possible, giving up their shooting to gain the equivalent of standing in cover, and then hoping that the game randomly ended that turn. An annoying tactic, but let's not pretend pre-scat jetbikes were some kind of deathstar wreckingball.

But yes, they will always be guardian jetbikes to me, and the all-scatters-squad was a problematic choice. Especially given that it lead to bikes no longer being troops.

No, but they played the objective game very well.

My recollection of listbuilding at the time was a balance of having enough troops in the list to score what you needed to score, while keeping as many points as you could free for more killy options. Pre-scatbike jetbikes were very mobile tac marines as you say, but nobody was quaking in their boots over tacs. The jetbikes massive mobility means they didn’t need to break cover 2-3 turns early to slog across no man’s land. Less worries about them getting blown off the table. They were one element that made Eldar powerful, but not the only (or worst) one.

I was sad when they stopped being troops, as part of my army philosophy is “getting mud on your boots is for lesser races” So everyone is on a bike or in a transport. I much prefered the less killy, more objective version.

Edit:
“Windriders” might be a silly name, but the new bike models are a lot better then pervious versions

 Nevelon wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
IIRC there were a lot of 3rd resculps that were a step back from the prior models, and improved later. But were only in production for a short bit.

...the infamous Striking Bunnies?

IIRC the scorpions were the worst, but it was bad all around.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures:_Eldar

Here is a good link if people want to see the evolution of the range.

Thanks for sharing the link. Hadn't seen the 3rd edition Fire Dragons before. Those are awesome!

I am struck once again by how well the 1st edition Eldar scouts hold up. Most stuff from Rogue Trader I find... is of its time. But I reckon those wouldn't look too out of place in amodern force.

 Nevelon wrote:

“Windriders” might be a silly name, but the new bike models are a lot better then pervious versions

Naah, I like the old school ones where the Guardians look like they're wearing leather riding jackets.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

“Windriders” might be a silly name, but the new bike models are a lot better then pervious versions

Naah, I like the old school ones where the Guardians look like they're wearing leather riding jackets.

They got style, I’ll give you that. The old ones were not bad, the new ones are just a lot better IMHO.

But that’s a very subjective thing. I think my collection is about 50/50 old/new, love them all. (Just the new guys more )

I liked a lot of the units in 9th because of the way Crusade's Path system blurred the lines. You might build a unit of Guardians, but they could grow into Aspect Warriors, or Rangers, or a Warlock Conclave. And then they can change again. They can even become characters- Warlock to Farseer or Aspect Warrior to Exarch or Autarch.

Switching to the Path of the Outcast and splintering to start a new Crusade... an archetypal story hook.

The best were the Harlequins- I really thought the three "Performances" were a really innovative twist on some fairly simple mechanics. The idea of battles upon battles to rehearse, all to have one shot the Grand Performance, with a variable outcome... Deciding which battle to Perform would involve a lot of risk, a lot of gravitas and no guarantees- I could see telling the stories that the Harlequins are acting out; I haven't combed through all the lore to find them, but I'm sure they're out there.

And maybe some of your dudes don't live to play their role. And the Solitaire's path- the darkest of all.

I'm not a patient or skilled enough painter to even think about Harlequins, but I will be building both Corsairs and Craftworlders soon, starting with the combined Aspect Kill Team.

So what are everyone's thoughts about the new Scorpions?

For me it's a mixed bag. They mostly kept the 4th edition aesthetic like they did for Banshees and Reapers which is fine.

Things I liked:
- Two helmet options for the exarch
- finally a model for chainsabres even though they are not currently supported in the rules
- two chest plate options for the exarch

Things I didn't like:
- anemic posing (seriously, why are the Guardians better?)
- tactical rocks for everyone
- seams on the ribbed shoulders
- super fragile bits on the exarch torso fronts that are hard to remove from the sprue safely.

 Arschbombe wrote:
So what are everyone's thoughts about the new Scorpions?

For me it's a mixed bag. They mostly kept the 4th edition aesthetic like they did for Banshees and Reapers which is fine.

Things I liked:
- Two helmet options for the exarch
- finally a model for chainsabres even though they are not currently supported in the rules
- two chest plate options for the exarch

Things I didn't like:
- anemic posing (seriously, why are the Guardians better?)
- tactical rocks for everyone
- seams on the ribbed shoulders
- super fragile bits on the exarch torso fronts that are hard to remove from the sprue safely.

Did the new KT get released already?!

I like the look of the new models. Very crisp. Good proportions. The weapons look sick. My only two nitpicks are:

1. The poses. They're not ugly or anything; there's just a lot of standing around. I was hoping for more crouching/lunging. Or, if tactical rocks are a thing, more visibly utilizing the rocks as cover. Something to communicate that the scorpions are either actively hiding or else springing from cover.

2. While they're a very clean update of the existing models, I was sort of hoping for something a little more different. With my banshees, I like fielding squads with different helmet styles from different editions to make it feel like each shrine has their own aesthetic. I was kind of hoping we'd get a cool reimagining or variant. The exposed heads are neat, but feel slightly weird for scorpions to me, so I'll probably use them for kitbashing.

Also, FWIW my intention with this thread was to discuss everyone's preferred rules for various units, but I don't particularly mind that we've veered towards model talk instead.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Did the new KT get released already?!

The Salvation box is out. All the pieces are being parted out on Ebay. I got the set of 10 Scorpions for $45. Couldn't pass it up when I know they'll be reboxed as 5 models for $60.

1. The poses. They're not ugly or anything; there's just a lot of standing around. I was hoping for more crouching/lunging. Or, if tactical rocks are a thing, more visibly utilizing the rocks as cover. Something to communicate that the scorpions are either actively hiding or else springing from cover.

They're very close to the static poses of the 4th ed sculpts that are still for sale on the website albeit finecast. All the swords are in the right hands. All the pistols are in the left. Some point up. Some point out. With the old sculpts you had a little more flexibility in arm positions. Best you can do with these new ones is swap arms from one to the other to add some variety. I think this is what they did with the promo photos of the set of 10. I thought after the Banshees and Guardians that we would get a few running legs when the Scorpions finally arrived.

2. While they're a very clean update of the existing models, I was sort of hoping for something a little more different. With my banshees, I like fielding squads with different helmet styles from different editions to make it feel like each shrine has their own aesthetic. I was kind of hoping we'd get a cool reimagining or variant. The exposed heads are neat, but feel slightly weird for scorpions to me, so I'll probably use them for kitbashing.

I don't care for the Ynnari heads at all. The new set includes two distinct helmets and chests so you can make two shrines. If you really want to make a squad stand out, you should look at Artel W's Shadow Hunters.

Also, FWIW my intention with this thread was to discuss everyone's preferred rules for various units, but I don't particularly mind that we've veered towards model talk instead.

I know. I hesitated to post that, but I figured that the thread had already been derailed from its intended purpose. I am thinking that rules over the years blend in people's memories, but the models stand out more.