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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

The Rapid Fire rules on page 29 of the rulebook say: "An infantry model armed with a rapid fire weapon can shoot twice at targets up to 12 [inches] away. If an infantry model has not moved, it may instead fire once at targets over 12 [inches] away, up to its maximum range."

The lastest Terminator armor rules say (page 86 of the Chaos Space Marine Codex): "Models in Terminator armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons."

[FYI on loyalist vs. Chaos terminators -- No published codex or FAQ, loyalist or otherwise, specifically says that Terminators always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons]

QUESTION: How do you choose play with Terminators firing rapid fire weapons?

OPTION A. I play the rules as written: Terminators with rapid fire weapons who wish to fire up to their maximum range have to remain stationary in the movement phase first.

OPTION B. I play that terminators are able to move and fire rapid fire weapons to their full range (generally 24 inches), just like they do with heavy weapons.

OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

Option A.

I must say that that's the RAW. If you look into the Tau (or any other army that can move and fire rapid fire weapons once to full range) they have a specific rule that states that they can do that.

Besides ..... being able to charge after rapid firing more than makes up for the one round where the "good guys" are out of rapid fire range.

Except for the fact that the "good guys" can also charge after firing?

But what it "should" be isn't really important here. Just how people actually choose to play it is.

The Chaos terminator is the ONLY unit that can rapid fire and then charge!

Except for bikes, Dark & Blood Angel terminators (who have the same rules as the Chaos Termies).

But my point was simply that the loyalist marines can fire with their storm bolters before charging in. I know it isn't "rapid firing" but you seemed to imply that the Chaos Terminators were getting something extra that their loyalist counterparts weren't getting, which may be technically true (with the old SM codex wording, of course), but in pratical terms the loyalist terminator armor is far superior because they carry storm bolters which don't suffer from this rapid fire issue.

Besides the fact that loyalists with Rapid-fire weapons can shoot and charge too as they can move and fire heavies...

Option B for me. I don't play Marines or Chaos Marines, though, so the point is moot for me personally, but I choose to be of the opinion that if you can fire an assault cannon while walking, rapid-firing a combi-bolter should also be possible. All that being said, I do recognize that the rules say what they say, and I would not get into an argument about it if an unfavorable RAW ruling was passed upon me.

Posted By yakface on 10/16/2007 1:42 AM

But my point was simply that the loyalist marines can fire with their storm bolters before charging in. I know it isn't "rapid firing" but you seemed to imply that the Chaos Terminators were getting something extra that their loyalist counterparts weren't getting, which may be technically true (with the old SM codex wording, of course), but in pratical terms the loyalist terminator armor is far superior because they carry storm bolters which don't suffer from this rapid fire issue.

Agreed.  My thought isn't even if they are deep-striking or charging into combat but if they are marching across the field. 

Chaos termies have twin-linked bolters as a substitute for storm bolters.  If they are marching down the table from the lines they cannot lay down a torrent of fire from their small arms if they cannot fire their bolters at maximum range.  Ditto any characters in terminator armour.

Very interesting. Right down the middle so far.

Posted By Agamemnon2 on 10/16/2007 4:14 AM
 I choose to be of the opinion that if you can fire an assault cannon while walking, rapid-firing a combi-bolter should also be possible.

Two things:
1: There is no such thing as 'rapid-firing a combi-bolter' (or any other weapon) under 4th edition 40K.

'Rapid Fire' is a class of weapon, not a mode of firing.

You can fire a rapid fire weapon, which results in one shot if the target is more than 12" away (and you didn't move) or two shots if the target is within 12".


2: Whether or not they can fire two shots on the move isn't in question. It's whether or not they can fire the single shot at full range after moving that is being polled.

I chose B. If you can move and fire Heavy Weapons w/o any restrictions in Terminator armor, then you can move & fire the Chaos Twin Linked Bolter as well. If this suit of armor is so strong it can handle the recoil of high profile weapons & still move, then it's obvious it can handle moving &  firing small arms as well.

I play A because that's what the rules state. However I think they should be changed to allow terminators to fire rapid fire weapons at full range even after they moved.

I chose B. If they can move an fire heavy weapons, they should be able to move and fire Rapid Fire weapons to 24". Goes against RAW, but sometimes RAW is dumb.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Concur on what Ozymandias said.

I suspect that the developers intended that being able to move and fire heavy weapons would imply stationary platform, but that they failed to state it.

Even if my suspicion is wrong, I'll continue to give terminators the benefit of the stationary platform rule until something specific is published. (For the record, I don't have any terminators that benefit from this, only my opponents have.)

I used to agree with you guys 100% before the new Chaos codex. But look at how careful the wording is: they made absolutely clear that you can charge after firing rapid fire weapons.

I find it pretty difficult to believe that they would take the time to write all that out about rapid fire weapons being able to charge but at the same time totally miss the fact that they can't move and fire rapid fire weapons at full range.

I could be totally wrong but it just seems beyond the scope of reason.

Posted By yakface on 10/18/2007 3:21 AM

I could be totally wrong but it just seems beyond the scope of reason.

It can't just be a typo/oversight?  GW's editors have made mistakes before.

Here's a spelling error from the CAN store:

They just keep comming and comming and comming and comming.... This Apocalyplse formation contains 120 Tyranid Gaunts. That is over $75 in savings!

At least they didn't spell it with a 'u'



Sorry

GW rules writing and "beyond the scope of reason" don't really get along.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 10/18/2007 9:18 AM
GW rules writing and "beyond the scope of reason" don't really get along.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Sad but quite often true. Sometimes a simple MS Word spell check would save hundreds of confused posts.

Option A. The wording just seems too specific and deliberate to be an oversight.

Short question is this the exact quote from the english dex:
?

Because the german version says "after firing rapid fire or heavy weapons.". The guys who translate here have shown very often that they do translation mistakes so I just want to know if they did it again.

Yep, that's the exact quote.

Although I don't see any real difference between using an "and" and an "or" in this case.

Well not so well translated by me either but in german the rule would says that you got to chose between heavy or rapid fire before you charge.

It's gotta be RAW... otherwise it's just another 40K Tournament. IE: CH33T2W1NL0L!!!.

Option A all the way. If you're not using the 40K rules... why even play 40K? There are other rulesets out there.. some of them even make sense.

I'd agree with Yakface: Choice A seems to be the logical one, as well as the most charitable reading of the rules.

From a math-based perspective, I see this as a situation like that of Differentiability and Continuity of a funtion.

If a funtion is Differentiable, it is implied that the function is also continuous.

If a funtion is continuous, it is not necessarily differentiable. Sorry about the geeky analogy.

To me, making the "move and fire with heavy weapons" bit backwards compatible to rapid fire weapons is too far a stretch from RAW. As much as I'd like to see Chaos Termies get this rule fixed so that they could fire at max range with their combi-bolters, the rules clearly state otherwise. Now, if my friend who plays Iron Warriors were to bring it up, I'd say: "to hell with the technicalities. This is a friendly game, so play on!"

However, in a more competative setting, like against my brother (haha) or in a tourney, I'd absolutely call someone on this. I voted A, as you can guess, because in an official setting, this is how I'd play.

CK

It might also be something to note how "Or" gets used in english. It can be used to denote both "inclusive disjuncts' and 'exclusive disjuncts'. Basically either option in an inclusive disjunct can be true, but only one option in an exclusive disjunct can be true. This means that in constructing certain formulas 'or' & 'and' are synonymous.

Likewise what the corpsman was describing was a conditional relationship. If A then B, A, therefore B is valid. But If A then B, B, therefore A is not valid. Definitions like "...if and only if..." fix it so that if A then B AND if B then A; they are equivalent (they return the same value). The character map on our computators has handy symbols for these relations: If...then... (?), ...because... (?), and ...if and only if...,...is...(?).

So As (or all As) can be Bs without all Bs being As.

Aside from also being the charitable reading, it seems to have a nice 'fit' as well, depending on how you're playing. If you're playing what I'd call 'gritty' then it represents fewer but more carefully aimed shots, and it makes sense that even Terminators need to take careful aim if they are to hit anything further away. Rather like the Imperial Chaplain fellow. Except he has the advanced stormbolter, a stabilized rapid-firing weapon.One could say that because the heavy weapons are stabilized that the combi-weapons must be. But the heavy weapons are specially built into the armour, whereas Terminators just hold their (non-)standard arms. The difference is the difference between a storm bolter and a combi-bolter, one is stabilized so it's easier to engage at range, but less agile close-in (the gyroscope makes fancy gunplay hard), and the other is non-stabilized, too much recoil for accurate long range fire, but easier to manipulate during close-range gun fights. I like to think of each Imperial Terminator as an automatic rifleman that way, by comparison to the Chaos Terminator shock troops.

If you're playing what I'd call 'heroically', aka 'among friends', then you play it how you want to play it.

RAW all the way....my opinion is that if you need to find little loop holes in the rules to either win, or have a fun game....you shouldn't be playing! Yes rules are rules, and we all in some extent hate rules, but it's JUST A GAME....can you bend the rules in a video game (Cheat codes aside...lol) unless you're some super video game expert that knows how to...no you can't. Just sit down, play your game...and enjoy it for what it is....

yakface wrote:
I used to agree with you guys 100% before the new Chaos codex. But look at how careful the wording is: they made absolutely clear that you can charge after firing rapid fire weapons.

I find it pretty difficult to believe that they would take the time to write all that out about rapid fire weapons being able to charge but at the same time totally miss the fact that they can't move and fire rapid fire weapons at full range.

I could be totally wrong but it just seems beyond the scope of reason.

I disagree here. With all of the RAW arguments they had with the last Chaos codex, they wanted to make it perfectly clear that Terminators can rapid-fire and assault, so they clarified it.

But there oversight was 12”-24”.

What they need is a USR for “Always counts as stationary”

ACAS!!!

Haaaa!

- G

RAW.

Normal Termies shouldn't be taking Combi-weapons that RF anyways, so this should be moot.

Chaos Termies have Combi-weapons as standard, so they need the exception in their rules.

If a Loyalist Termie takes a RF weapon, then he doesn't get the Chaos Termie bonus until he forsakes the Emperor.