YMTC - charging with a rapid fire weapon

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**yakface**

FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.

The 'Rapid Fire Weapons' rules on page 29 of the rulebook say: "Models carrying rapid fire weapons that wish to charge into close combat in the Assault phase may not fire in the Shooting phase. . ."

QUESTION: When you play, are models that are carrying a rapid fire weapon allowed to fire another type of weapon (like a pistol or Assault weapon) and then charge into combat in the subsequent Assault phase?

OPTION A. I follow the rules as written: If a model has a rapid fire weapon then it may not fire any kind of weapon and charge into combat in the subsequent Assault phase.

OPTION B. I play that a model must actually shoot with its rapid fire weapon to be prevented from charging in the subsequent Assault phase. If the model shoots with another type of weapon (such as a pistol or Assault weapon) then it is not prevented from making a charge move.

OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

**Lordhat**

B. I believe the intent is clear, given the new BA and DA codices.

**skyth**

I'm not even sure A is the RAW, as the pistol rules are more specific than the Rapid fire rules when you're actually using the pistol.

**tegeus-Cromis**

A is RAW, but B is sane. I choose B.

**Souleater**

When those rules were written how many models actually had two firearms? My memory is hazy but I think the 'norm' was to only have one. Hence they've just assumed that the model is firing what it carries.

Since models are now turning up with two weapons it seems logical to fire the pistol once if you want to assault.

**don_mondo**

Option B. While the weapon description for rapid fire weapons may state option A, the actual Assault rules say option B, "An Infantry unit... which shot with rapid fire weapons....". So B is actually RAW as well.

**Frazzled**

B is RAW as well.

**Geddonight**

I think the poll is misleading: Option B is RAW if you look at other sections of the rulebook; for instance, the section on who can charge quite explicitly states who can and cannot based on the weapons fired. Saying option A is RAW and B is not could potentially influence the poll (not according to the results, though).

Cheers!

**Democratus**

Sorry, Geddonight, that isn't correct. Prohibitions in RAW override allowances. Otherwise I could point to the first sentence in the Shooting phase rules which states "During the Shooting phase, each of your units may fire", and then proceed to fire with infantry who moved and carries heavy weapons.

But there are additional rules which prohibit the general "all units may fire" rule. This is also the case with RF and charging.

The section on Assault states that you may not charge if you fired twice with pistols or fired Rapid Fire weapons. But it never contradicts or overrides the Rapid Fire rule which specifically prohibits carrying a Rapid Fire weapon, shooting, and charging.

By RAW you cannot charge if you fire pistols while carrying Rapid Fire weapons. Most people house rule this away, but it is still RAW.

**Ozymandias**

B. Obviously.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

**Wehrkind**

B is pretty much 100% what they intended to write. It is important to remember that while Britain was the birthplace of English, no one there speaks it. Or at least no one at GW is fluent.

If someone really wanted to play A, I suppose I would relent since it is technically how it is written. I would seriously reconsider playing with them on a regular basis, however. It just seems like a silly argument to me.

**insaniak**

Posted By Democratus on 09/11/2007 1:31 PM
Prohibitions in RAW override allowances.

So Terminators can't move and fire with heavy weapons then?

Unfortunately, while other games have the nice little 'can't over-rides can' clause, it doesn't exist in 40K. In GW-land, 'can' sometimes does over-ride 'can't'

Posted By Democratus on 09/11/2007 1:31 PM
By RAW you cannot charge if you fire pistols while carrying Rapid Fire weapons.

No, by RAW you cannot charge if you fire a pistol while carrying a rapid fire weapon that wishes to charge.

I play B, because the RAW doesn't make any sense.

**Hellfury**

Option B.

I think the rule is written like trash and the designers are indeed pratts.

The same goes for combi weapons.

Combiflamer for instance. Its an assualt weapon mounted with a rapidfire weapon. But due to wording, it seems that the flamer is now a rapid firing weapon.

Also, termies can assault after firing heavy weapons but not after rapidfire weapons? Huh? WTF?

So a termie sgt with a combiflamer who used the flamer before assaulting suddenly cannot assault. Because an interpretation of raw is that the flamer is a rapidfire weapon or because it is part of a rapidfire weapon that the model is carrying?

Yeah, great rule... But then again it becomes apparent that most gamers can infact think for themselves and apply precedent.
Precedent such as: "A combiflamer fires its flamer. A flamer is known as an assault weapon. The flamer doesnt shoot twice upto 12". Therefore I can assault after firing the single flamer template because this is an assault weaponportion that is attached to a rapidfire weapon."

Or

"A model is armed with a bolt pistol and a bolter. the model fires one shot with the bolt pistol. It can assault because thats what the bolt pistool rules decribe. Simply carrying a bolter doesnt mean jack squat unless that weapon is fired".

**HarveyDent**

The RAW is merely an oversight in this instance. B is correct.

**tegeus-Cromis**

B isn't "correct". B is sane and reasonable. A is "correct".

**Hellfury**

Posted By tegeus-Cromis on 09/12/2007 12:07 AM
B isn't "correct". B is sane and reasonable. A is "correct".

The point of this poll is to gather information pertaining to how you personally play/would play it.

"Correct" has barely anything to do with the subject.

To argue RaW is to derail this thread. There are already a couple threads present on this subject, discuss such there.

This is a place to share how you play this rule and why, just like all of Yakface's YMDC polls.

**Frazzled**

Regardless fo the argument over whether B is also RAW, it is a reasonable accomodation to game play. When playing an opponent who has this option I would clarify first or agree when the senseless violence began.

**tegeus-Cromis**

Hellfury, I realise this, and I responded to the poll accordingly. In fact, part of the point of my post to HarveyDent was that this is not about "correctness".

**livingregret**

--I Voted B but it should be clarified w/ your opponent ahead of time. Having worked for GW I can tell you that this rule comes up A LOT and leads to no end in terms of arguing. Rule Lawyers will try to use this rule to cripple opponents armies while those w/ common sense(and playing for fun) go w/ option B.

**akira5665**

Does anyone have any instances where they have at Grand Tournies/GW events where this ruling is an issue? I personally never have, but I wonder if there are any horror stories out there???

HMMMM?

Option "B" makes perfect sense. But to sound like a Tribble, when did "making sense" ever have anything to do with some of the more "bizarre" conflicts in the game????

I still love the game to bitz though,.............