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I went to the local store yesterday and do my usual lurk around and watch whatever games look interesting.  I ended up watching a guard vs marine game.  The guard player had the novel idea of using a deepstriking command squad with plasmaguns and a medic.  The medic was only there to save him from overheats.  He seamed pretty impressed with himself and I have seen many army lists around (including here) that also use this method.  I've never used this, but since so many people use it it MUST be a good idea right?  So, I went home and looked over the rules and point costs and I believe I've found a flaw...

The rules for 'Gets Hot' use the word "wound" when they talk about what happens when a weapon overheats. pg. 30 BGB

The rules for 'Instant Death' also use the word "wound" when they refer to what must happen for the rule itself to kick in. pg. 27 BGB

The rules for the "Medi-pack" state: "The medi-pack may not be used on any model which suffers instant death (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook) or has been hit by a close combat weapon that allows no Armour save."

So, I believe this is the way things happen:

Plasma overheats.

The Gunner is allowed to make a save per the 'Gets Hot' rules.

If he passes he is fine, but if he fails he falls victim to the 'Instant Death' rules.  The medi-pack cannot help him.

I knew there was a reason I never give plasma pistols to my officers!  Sorry to ruin it for everyone since I don't use it, but I welcome anyone to post rules that I have missed.  I probably have since I've never even bothered to read the rules for the medi-pack until last night.

Hm, I'm not sure how you concluded that the plasma overheat is an instant death situation.  It clearly states on page 30 that the gunner needs to make an Armor Save or suffer a wound.  Note it says "a wound".  As in, one wound.  That in no way implies overheating falls under the instant death rule.

Exactly, it seems you assume that "wound" the Overheat cause, use the plasma gun´s strenght of 7..? It doesn´t as far as I know..?

As pointed out, you are mistaken. Plasma weapon overheats don't cause instant death.

I'd imagine you're assuming that the IG trooper, who is T3, takes a S7 hit, which would cause instant death. But that assumption would be an understandable mistake. He simply takes "a wound". No strength is given, hence no ID.

Instant Death is only a one wound situation. That's why marines can kill a 3 wound Ogryn with a single Pfist hit, but still lose the assault if the Ogryn caused 2 wounds on the marines.

I agree that the Guardsmen hasn't taken a S7 hit. That would only happen if someone fired a plasmagun at him. However, he has been wounded by a weapon that has a strength double his toughness.

If the plasmagun caused the wound it doesn't matter wether it came from incomming fire or from overheating. The weapon caused a wound. And the Instant Death section clearly states that when a model is wounded by a weapon that has a S double their T it is subject to those rules. The overheat rules don't give us a way out by saying that the wound is unrelated to the S of the weapon. They only tell us that the wound will occur if a save is not made.

This is good stuff though. I consider myself an intent player in that I believe that terminators wear Terminator armor and players can't use their opponent's teleport homers. I'm just not sure if the intent was to allow medics to be used in this way.

You´re mistaken there. You can´t really say it´s a "S7-wound". It´s just a wound like when a vehicle explodes in your face (and you roll the 4+ to get the wound). There is no strenght for the wound.

You´re mistaken there. You can´t really say it´s a "S7-wound". It´s just a wound like when a vehicle explodes in your face (and you roll the 4+ to get the wound). There is no strenght for the wound.

He's not saying there is. He's saying that the wound 'is caused by a weapon that has Strength equal to double the Toughness', which is, verbatim, what the rules for Instant Death say. If the wound is caused by the plasma gun, then the wound fulfils the ID criteria, which don't say that the wound must be a wound of a particular strength.

Now, I don't think Glaive's interpretation is right either, mostly because I don't think there's a way to show that the wound was caused, as defined in the game rules, by the plasma gun, but it's certainly a very nice weasel interpretation, and you've got to like that.

I'm all about the weasel baby! Rawwr! Or whatever sound a weasel makes. If the consensus here is that the rules did intend for the medics to be used to heal plasma overheats than that's good enough for me. Ther's enough RAW strangeness floating around as it is. Personally though, I've always felt the opposite way about using medics like that. In other words, I've always felt that that was taking advantage of a loophole, but maybe that was the intent all along.

Nowhere does it say the hit caused by an overheat uses the plasma gun's statline. If it did you wouldn't be allowed an armour save anyway due to it's AP value, so the 'make a save or take a wound' bit would be contradictory.

It's just a wound, save allowed, so a medic could save the victim if he fails the save. I can't see why there's any confusion here as for once the rules are quite clearly written!

It's not like the trooper points the gun at himself and pulls the trigger. Unless of course he's Mordian and is sick of the gaudy uniform.


But just to throw a different, realted spanner in the works, here's a linked scenario:
If a plasma gun overheats you can make a save, right? Well what about field-based saves? There's nothing in the rules against your Officer using a refractor field to save, but in reality surely it would be inside the field's 'bubble' and wouldn't work? Or are refractor fields skin-tight like Dune's knife-fighting shields? This one came up in my last game, and could be debated fluff-wise forever... Me? I'll keep on rolling those 5+ saves like a jammy git!

I just got one question: What caused the wound?

I just got one question: What caused the wound?

The gets hot rule?

I just got one question: What caused the wound?

Failure to read instructions.

oh, hahahahaha. I get it. An insult. And an original one too. I pat you on the back, Mr. OMO.

Anyway

Zubbie, okay, the gets hot rule caused the wound. What get's hot?

oh, hahahahaha. I get it. An insult. And an original one too. I pat you on the back, Mr. OMO.

No, not an insult at all, just trying to make a joke. Really.

Like I said my above post, I like this interpretation, even if I don't think it can be proven in the rules. Wouldn't dream of making an insult over that.

Only the slow blade can pass through his Dune refractor field anyways, so it wouldn't matter. I think I see where the confusion is, so let me try to break it down again.

The gunner's weapon overheats.
He fails his save.
He IS WOUNDED by the weapon. It doesn't matter if the wepon's statline says S1 or S10. It doesn't matter if the guy was the toughest soldier in the world and the strength of the weapon was insufficient to wound him on the table. HE IS WOUNDED. The Strength of the weapon is not relevant until...

By the Instant Death rules he has suffered a wound and the weapon that wounded him was of a strength double his Toughness.

So to re-iterate: The statline IS NOT used anywhere in the overheat rules. It doesn't need to be because the shot will wound him if he fails a save. The overheat rules do not use statlines EVER. But, once wounded we must refer to the instant death rules. Those are clearly written and tell us what we already know.

"He IS WOUNDED by the weapon"

Where's that in the rules? I don't see anything in the gets hot rule that says you take a wound caused by the weapon.

That's just something you've infered to make your argument.

jeeze, you don't need to say it twice. We heard you the first time. It is a logical conclusion. Wounds don't just appear, they care caused by something. That something is the get's hot rule. What gets hot? The weapon. So a wound was caused by a weapon that got hot. By the Instant Kill Rules, you look at the weapon's strength that caused the wound.

If you want to get technical (well fluffy at least), the wound is caused by overheated coolant which is emergency vented. These gasses allow a save, and are of undetermined strength. I could see ID kicking in if the actual Plasma caused the wound, but then no one would get an armor save, either.

Fantastic Honkeybro.

Now just find some rules that agree.

Posted By Honkey Bro on 02/22/2006 1:07 PM
jeeze, you don't need to say it twice. We heard you the first time. It is a logical conclusion. Wounds don't just appear, they care caused by something. That something is the get's hot rule. What gets hot? The weapon. So a wound was caused by a weapon that got hot. By the Instant Kill Rules, you look at the weapon's strength that caused the wound.

When a tank explodes and causes wounds what strength are they? Dangerous terrain tests, what's the strength on those? It's a similar rule set with similar results, causing a wound that gets a save.

"The model must make an Armour Save or it suffers a wound" I found this in the rules for "Gets Hot"

These rules are found near the middle right of pg 30 BGB.

Please everyone review your rulebooks before posting. This is a specific argument that relies on the word "wound." If you make assumptions you will not get my argument.

If the guardsman sat on his Plasmagun and it wounded him, he would be wounded by it.  If it jumped out of his hands and kicked him in the face, he would be wounded by it.  If the weapon ever does anything that wounds the guardsman, he would be wounded by it.

Again, if the weapon overheats (and the guardsman fails his save) the guardsman will be wounded by it.  The overheat rules tell us that he gets a save.  So it's not the same as being fired at by the weapon, but the weapon IS causing a wound on the guardsman.

What you need to do is prove that the plasmagun is not causing the wound.  So I will re-ask Honkey Bro's question, "what is causing the wound?"

When a tank explodes and causes wounds what strength are they? Dangerous terrain tests, what's the strength on those? It's a similar rule set with similar results, causing a wound that gets a save.

Okay, here you go. A tank explodes, causing a wound. Okay, looking at the Instant Kill rules. . . . okay, is the tank a weapon? NO! So Instant Kill doesn't come into play.

Okay, here you go. A Dangerous terrain test fails, the soldier falls on his face, and causes a wound. Okay, looking at the Instant Kill rules. . . . okay, is terrain a weapon? NO! So Instant Kill doesnt' come into play.

What I need from you guys:

Prove that a plasma gun is not a weapon

or

Prove that the wound from gets hot is not from the weapon with the "gets hot" rule tagged to it.

Isn't it obvious, the plasma gun caused the wound. However the gun did not shoot him, because he gets a save, then the attack profile of the weapon is not used (AP 2?) .

There is no statement as to the strength of the wound anywhere in the rules. However RAW he takes a wound if he fails his save, not he takes a wound at 6 strength, not at 7 strength, just a wound. The attack lacks a determined strength. There is no indication that the wound causes instant death, the wound does not use the weapons attack profile to wound the model firing it.

However, I may be wrong, but in the third edition wasn't the strength of the wound 6 on an overheat, or am i confusing this with a perils of the warp attack?

Isn't it obvious, the plasma gun caused the wound. However the gun did not shoot him, because he gets a save, which the attack profile of the weapon is not used(AP 2?) .

You guys are mixing the two rules. Here, follow this:

What caused the wound?

Gets Hot

What got hot?

Plasma gun

Is the Plasma gun a weapon?

Yes

What is it's strength?

7

hahaha, sucka, you be Insty Killed

As I've said before, you guys are looking at this the wrong way.

'Gets Hot' doesn't specify that the model takes a hit based on the weapons Strength. If the guardsman was T10 and the Weapon was S1 it could never wound him if he was hit by it. However, if he was firing the weapon and it overheated he WOULD take a wound (providing he fails his Armour Save). So, forget abot him taking any particular strength hit from 'Gets Hot.'

Instant Death does not care if the model gets a saving throw or not. Instant Death only cares that the weapon's stat for Strength is double the wounded model's stat for Toughness.

I'm not claiming that this situation behaves like normal shooting.  So forget how normal shooting rules apply.  Yes, he would be wounded on a 2+.  Yes, he would not be allowed a save.  This situation doesn't contain EITHER of those two actions so don't try to apply them.

He was wounded by a Strength 7 weapon. It doesn't matter HOW he was wounded. Dangerous Terrain and Exploding vehicles do not have a stat for their wounding Strength so they will never be able to cause Instant Death. If a vehicle exploded and caused a S4 hit on those nearby than you can bet any T2 models WOULD be insta-killed.

Honkeybro keeps making a real world physics argument and Glaive, you keep adding premises that aren't in the rules (that the weapon does the wound).

Sorry fellas, REJECTED.

And I'm not going to bother wasting my time replying unless you put it into a proper argument format: at least two premises and a conclusion.

Refer to my first post. Then, explain how the weapon didn't cause the wound

Simple mitigating fact: anyone who tries to enforce this on your average IG player will be laughed off the game table. Nor will any "official" enforce it for them. If a player want to use this interpretation on himself, that's fine.

The special rule "Gets Hot!" caused the wound...

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 02/22/2006 2:09 PM
Refer to my first post. Then, explain how the weapon didn't cause the wound

Again, two numbered premises and a conclusion please.