Anyone gaming on an amd integrated r7 raedeon chip? I don't meet the minimum specs on my laptop but that's been the case before and I've played slower paced turn based games without issue.
warboss wrote: Anyone gaming on an amd integrated r7 raedeon chip? I don't meet the minimum specs on my laptop but that's been the case before and I've played slower paced turn based games without issue.
Sorry, I use Intel so can't really say. It doesn't seem to be very well optimized, though.
warboss wrote: Anyone gaming on an amd integrated r7 raedeon chip? I don't meet the minimum specs on my laptop but that's been the case before and I've played slower paced turn based games without issue.
Sorry, I use Intel so can't really say. It doesn't seem to be very well optimized, though.
Thanks. Probably not then but maybe I'll take my chances... you know, for science... during a steam sale.
warboss wrote: Anyone gaming on an amd integrated r7 raedeon chip? I don't meet the minimum specs on my laptop but that's been the case before and I've played slower paced turn based games without issue.
Sorry, I use Intel so can't really say. It doesn't seem to be very well optimized, though.
Thanks. Probably not then but maybe I'll take my chances... you know, for science... during a steam sale.
It wasnt great until I updated my graphics driver yesterday, now it runs like a dream.
I'm pretty sure that I haven't upgraded the rig for 2 or 3 years and that definitely wasn't a bleeding edge upgrade, either!
Game plays smoothly with everything maxed out.
Speaking of the game, I'm rather impressed with how they managed to get a decent tabletop feel whilst making a playable game. It'll be even better when I find someone with an AC10 for sale... stupid Periphery arms dealers...
jbeil wrote: Are there many players in the Northamptonshire area? I've got one recent convert but we really should find someone who properly understands the rules!
I'd jump on the official forums and check the Challenges and Gatherings page. Sign up, have some discussions!
Not in the Northampton area, but if you do have any rules queries fire away, I don't have the same level of expertise as Mattlov but if I can help I will.
1. When you recieve a hit to the head, or life support systems fail, your MechWarrior recieves one point of damage, and you roll for unconsciousness. What happens if you fail?
2. In the video games, a large hit from firearms can cause a 'Mech to fall over. Is this simulated in the game as well? What about in physical combat?
3. For some reason I've got the feeling that you have to pass a piloting check to land a jump - is this true or have I made that up somehow?
Oh, a bonus question: can anyone explain the Urbie meme? I mean it certainly looks cute and it's a bit slow and fat like an old lovable dog, but why the UrbanMech in particular?
1) If you fail a consciousness roll, your mech goes Immobile. That doesn't just mean it can't move or shoot, but your opponent also gets the "Target Immobile" bonus to hit and can target specific sections with Energy or Ballistic weapons (Such as the head) to quickly finish it off or just pile the Missiles and gunfire in at massively improved "to-hit" rolls. You will also automatically fail any Piloting skill rolls you're required to make which will cause further injury to the mechwarrior if your mech falls. At the start of each turn you roll for consciousness again, if you fail you stay unconscious and remain Immobile. Note, Target Immobile doesn't apply if your target just doesn't move, the enemy mech has to be Immobilised by heat-shutdown, pilot injury or in the case of vehicles specific damage. An Ammo explosion will also cause 2 points of damage to the pilot through neuro-feedback, assuming the mech survives, for Introtech/3025 era mechs Ammo explosions are usually but not always fatal.
2) Yes, damage of 20 points or more in a single phase triggers a Piloting skill roll at the end of that phase, a failed roll means you fall, your mech will take damage and you will need to take a second Piloting roll to avoid damage to your mechwarrior. Note that it's not one roll per 20 points, it's one roll whether it's 20 points or 200 points and it doesn't have to be in a single hit just total damage in a single phase, so a single AC-20 hit or 4 medium laser hits will have the same effect.
In physical combat receiving or failing a kick and IIRC receiving or failing a Charge or Death from Above or receiving a Push (I suggest you check this since these aren't moves I usually use myself so I may well be wrong here) also triggers a Piloting Skill roll, Punches, Clubbings and Hatchet attacks by themselves don't. It's possible you may find yourself making multiple rolls per phase. i.e. If you're kicked by an Atlas that's one roll for taking a kick and one roll for the kick causing 20 points of damage, if you miss a kick in reply that's a third roll. If the Atlas had also hit you with his AC-20, you'd have had to make a Piloting skill roll at the end of the Shooting phase too, before the Physical combat phase started.
3) No, you've made that one up I'm afraid. Unless you've got damaged leg components, a damaged gyro or you're landing in water. Water's always a bit of a risky one since you have to make a Piloting roll for every water hex you enter. I have seen a mech thrash itself to death trying to cross a river (Admittedly the player was extremely unlucky), always use a bridge or jump over it if you can.
4) Not sure what that is but best guess going in blind is that the Urbanmech has always been considered a bit of a joke in Battletech partly because of its comical looks but also its dismal top speed, albeit it's still a dangerous one since despite being a painfully slow light mech the AC-20 variant can single shot kill any other mech in the game. So mock the lowly Urbanmech at your peril, you won't be the first to utter the words "Yeah, but you'll need a double-six to... oh, damn."
I know it sounds like there's a lot of rolls potentially being made there, but in all honesty once you're fairly familiar with the rules it flows pretty well and goes quite quickly.
(So many Edits, I really must learn to proof-read my posts! )
simonr1978 wrote: An Ammo explosion will also cause 2 points of damage to the pilot through neuro-feedback, assuming the mech survives, for Introtech/3025 era mechs Ammo explosions are usually but not always fatal.
Does an ammo explosion only get triggered when a critical hit against the ammo store is scored, or will the destruction of a component (i.e. LA on a Catapult) also cause an ammo explosion?
It has to be an actual critical on the ammo bin itself, that's why even if you've caused enough damage to destroy the location it's still worth rolling the criticals for it because that can mean the difference between a damaged enemy mech and a dead one. (Also remember to check off whether you've got Auto-Eject enabled or not)
Letting your 'Mech get too hot can also trigger an ammunition explosion. The good news is that in order to get that hot, you're usually running a plethora of energy weapons, and only have a ton or two of ammunition (unfortunately, there is usually at least one box of Machine Gun ammunition which is the deadliest ammo bin to go off in a unit).
I've seen it happen both to others and myself. Especially in 3025 with only single heatsinks there are plenty of mechs where a couple of dings to the engine shielding will mean you gain heat doing anything more than just standing still and it's very difficult to lose it, if you've lost a heat-sink or two as well your mech might even be generating excess heat by doing nothing. Even without that it's a balancing act sometimes between adding a bit more firepower in this turn and hopefully doing enough damage to disable the other guy and take a small risk on a heat induced shutdown and worry about the penalties next turn.
In general I prefer to not push my luck further than +1 to hit -1 to move or maybe as far as Shutdown 4+, but there are times it's worth a bit of a gamble especially in close quarters and I'll even go straight to auto-shutdown in the right circumstances (Blackhawk Ps are good for this, you can let rip with a scary amount of firepower if you're willing to spend the next turn shut down, but at least you've got no ammo to cook off). If I'm carrying ammo though outside of exceptional circumstances I'd make a point on keeping the heat below the Ammo Explosion 4+ stage, I've usually got enough to worry about with the enemy shooting at my mechs without adding self-inflicted death to the list.
Charistoph wrote: Letting your 'Mech get too hot can also trigger an ammunition explosion. The good news is that in order to get that hot, you're usually running a plethora of energy weapons, and only have a ton or two of ammunition (unfortunately, there is usually at least one box of Machine Gun ammunition which is the deadliest ammo bin to go off in a unit).
And since it transfers directly through your internal structure even around half a tonne of most ammo types going off is likely to destroy most mechs pre-CASE, I'd always advise leaving auto-eject on so that at least you've got a chance of saving the pilot (Unless there's a fluff reason like you're running Bandits for who surrender or capture is out of the question) although unless they've tightened it up, IIRC going by RAW the pilot should still survive an ammo explosion even if they don't eject as damage transfers inwards to the CT but never outwards from it.
As I understood the game you gained heat, subtracted the value of the heat sinks (1 for single heat sinks, 2 for double, etc) and whatever you were left with was added to your 1-30 heat track. Mechs like a Locust virtually ignored heat thanks to the 10 single heat sinks that came with the fusion engine.
Nurglitch wrote: As I understood the game you gained heat, subtracted the value of the heat sinks (1 for single heat sinks, 2 for double, etc) and whatever you were left with was added to your 1-30 heat track. Mechs like a Locust virtually ignored heat thanks to the 10 single heat sinks that came with the fusion engine.
You understood the game correctly . That said, even a humble Locust LCT-1E gets hot if it shoots repeatedly (2MLs and 2SLs).
Nurglitch wrote: As I understood the game you gained heat, subtracted the value of the heat sinks (1 for single heat sinks, 2 for double, etc) and whatever you were left with was added to your 1-30 heat track. Mechs like a Locust virtually ignored heat thanks to the 10 single heat sinks that came with the fusion engine.
The flip side though is that a lot of mechs at the heavier end of the scale could virtually ignore the Locust because with 1xML and 2xMgs they usually needed to be at point blank range to even cause pinprick damage.
That said it is generally more the heavies and assaults where you have to start paying a lot more attention to heat management.
Edit to add: Minor detail but it's 10 Heat Sinks that come with the engine, not specifically 10 Single Heat Sinks, if the mech's constructed with Double Heat Sinks (Like more than a few Locust variants), then that's what they all are since you can't mix Double- and Single- Heat Sinks. (Not sure if there's an in-universe explanation for that or if it's just trying to keep things relatively simple).
You understood the game correctly . That said, even a humble Locust LCT-1E gets hot if it shoots repeatedly (2MLs and 2SLs).
It shouldn't do under normal circumstances. Even if it runs (+2 Heat) and fires 2xMLs (+6) and 2xSLs (+2) it should still come out heat-neutral unless it's been damaged.
Didn't weapons cause the same damage regardless of the range, although I recall Machineguns being range 3, and virtually useless (although so dangerous thanks to all that ammo).
Nurglitch wrote: Didn't weapons cause the same damage regardless of the range, although I recall Machineguns being range 3, and virtually useless (although so dangerous thanks to all that ammo).
Sorry, should have been clearer. Yes most do, some of the later weapons have different damage profiles depending on range but unless you're playing 3060+ it makes no difference. What I meant was that assuming you're piloting a Locust vs a typical 3025 Heavy mech unless you get right up base-to-base you've got much less chance of hitting with your full armament and most Heavies should be able to shrug off a medium laser hit and a couple of MGs as little more than an irritation at least for a few turns.
Machineguns were good for clearing Infantry, a Locust could potentially almost wipe a platoon out in a single turn if they were caught in the open, but in most games a pair of small lasers would have been better armament.
simonr1978 wrote:It shouldn't do under normal circumstances. Even if it runs (+2 Heat) and fires 2xMLs (+6) and 2xSLs (+2) it should still come out heat-neutral unless it's been damaged.
Ah, you're right, got the math fuzzy in my head. Still, there's more than one light that runs hot.
Nurglitch wrote:Didn't weapons cause the same damage regardless of the range, although I recall Machineguns being range 3, and virtually useless (although so dangerous thanks to all that ammo).
Yes, save for some of the latest tech weapons.
Machineguns are great for infantry hunting, not much good for much else. Unless you're a Pirahna. And it has the most dangerous ammo.
Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)
Made a mech once on a whim - 55 tons, called the Blazer, loaded with nothing but machine guns and 2 tons of MG ammo. It could easily run out of ammo well before a battle was over; only way it could be a threat was if it got right behind another mech.
As to the walking trash can* (Urbanmech), as far as I remember, back in the original TRO, it didn’t have an AC 20 option - just Large laser, I think.
* There’s an old FASA cartoon showing one of the designers sweeping up, stepping on the foot of an Urbanmech and dumping the dustpan into the flip-top head. Also, it reminded a lot of people of R2-D2.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)
On a similar note, I killed a King Crab in the opening turn once when my Dasher MASC'd across the board, rolled a double one and BOOM! The return fire killed my Dasher too but losing 20 tonnes for killing 100 was an exchange rate I could live with.
As to the walking trash can* (Urbanmech), as far as I remember, back in the original TRO, it didn’t have an AC 20 option - just Large laser, I think.
UM-R60L
Generally associated with the Capellan Confederation, who have modified a few of their UrbanMechs in this fashion, the -R60L is an upgrade to make the UrbanMech twice as deadly as the -R60 version. The -R60L sacrifices two tons of armor, allowing it to replace the Imperator-B Autocannon/10 with an Imperator-Zeta Autocannon/20 that is capable of downing most light 'Mechs and severely damaging most medium 'Mechs in a single salvo. Besides the thinner armor this modification comes with a very limited ammunition supply, which made it unpopular.[1][2] BV (1.0) = 443, BV (2.0) = 470[5]
I can't recall a Large Laser variant though. In 3025 there was only the AC-10 or AC-20 versions IIRC. I always favoured the AC-20 version personally because let's face it, if you're using an Urbanmech you're not going to be getting many shots off at the best of times, might as well make it count when you do.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)
Made a mech once on a whim - 55 tons, called the Blazer, loaded with nothing but machine guns and 2 tons of MG ammo. It could easily run out of ammo well before a battle was over; only way it could be a threat was if it got right behind another mech.
As to the walking trash can* (Urbanmech), as far as I remember, back in the original TRO, it didn’t have an AC 20 option - just Large laser, I think.
* There’s an old FASA cartoon showing one of the designers sweeping up, stepping on the foot of an Urbanmech and dumping the dustpan into the flip-top head. Also, it reminded a lot of people of R2-D2.
The AC/20 variant is the capellan UM-R60L. It also had less armor and like a single ton of ammo. I don't recall a LL variant, though.
Seriously though, the Urbie is more a highly mobile turret than an actual mech
I've just checked out of interest and apart from an armless AC-10 variant the only other type mentioned in either the original TRO-3025 or the re-issue was the UM-R60L.
House Liao has a few Urbanmechs with Imperator-Zeta Class 20 Autocannon, but the weapon's heat and mass have kept this variant of the mech from gaining popularity
(Seems odd since an undamaged UM-R60L has no particular problems handling heat)
To be fair to the old dust-bin, in its namesake environment or heavily forested terrain the Urbanmech is no small threat, especially against none-jumping mechs, the ability to suddenly appear and fire an AC-20 or -10 directly into a mech's rear quarter and disappear into the terrain is not to be dismissed lightly. Anywhere else though, they're sitting ducks and usually get blasted to scrap long before they can achieve anything useful.
Ah, you're right, got the math fuzzy in my head. Still, there's more than one light that runs hot.
True, although I can't think of any other 20 tonners at the moment, it's not usually until you hit the top end of the Light Class with mechs like the PNT-9R Panther or WLF-1 Wolfhound that heat management is really something you even need to be aware of. Most (although admittedly not all) 20-30 ton mechs don't need to worry about heat until they start taking damage and once you hit 3050 tech some can even shrug off a couple of engine hits if they've been upgraded with Double Heat Sinks.
simonr1978 wrote: True, although I can't think of any other 20 tonners at the moment, it's not usually until you hit the top end of the Light Class with mechs like the PNT-9R Panther or WLF-1 Wolfhound that heat management is really something you even need to be aware of. Most (although admittedly not all) 20-30 ton mechs don't need to worry about heat until they start taking damage and once you hit 3050 tech some can even shrug off a couple of engine hits if they've been upgraded with Double Heat Sinks.
I remember the Wasp and the Stingr running hot, particularly some variants, but IIRC only when jumping. Otherwise, yeah, it's hard for a 20 tonner to pack much of anything so heat is not usually a problem.
Of the standard variants the STG-3R would only generate a maximum of 9 heat and the WSP-1A would manage 11, at that rate even the Wasp would take quite some time Jumping and firing constantly before it generated a heat level that was a significant problem. The thing is at 20-25 tonners and 3025 Tech there just generally isn't the spare tonnage there really to load it up with enough weapons or use the really heat-inefficient ones like the PPC that are going to put it into Heat unless you deliberately design it to do so. Having said that the WSP-1D could generate up to 4 excess heat per turn, but that's mounting the only weapon more pointless than the Machinegun, the Flamer (Not counting One Shot Missile launchers because they were just lobotomy level stupid), and it's the only one I can think of that will generate significant surplus heat. And even then, after three turns at Flamer range, Heat probably isn't going to be the Wasp's only problem (Assuming it's still got the weapons left at that stage to generate heat).
Admittedly I could take an LCT-1V Locust, strip out its weapons, shave a tonne of armour, drop the engine rating and load it up with 5 flamers, but at that stage I'm trying to design a bad mech and even the Firestarter wasn't that bad. I'd designate it the LCT-1F. I might have to actually make that record sheet now, just for fun... Or I could go 3050 load up an ER-PPC and decide to stick with single heat sinks, again though,at that stage I'm trying to design a mech that will over-heat.
I used to have fun playing around with the construction rules, one of my creations was a 15 tonne Mech (Yeah, I know the rules say the lowest you can go is 20, I just wanted to see what it would be like, this was also pre-Protomech rules so it was a kind of proto-Proto-mech, I named it the Microlight). It's optional extras included armour or a small laser, and no, you couldn't have both. Mine nearly killed a Battlemaster (Admittedly through a lucky double-one which double critical'd the engine), until a few turns later when the Battlemaster actually shot it and nearly killed it outright with a single medium laser hit.
It's not really until you get up to the likes of the CRD-3R Crusader that you get a mech that can shut itself down in one turn or blow itself up in two.
(I played 3025 Battletech so often in the 1990s that a lot of this information is pretty much embedded in my brain).
simonr1978 wrote: Of the standard variants the STG-3R would only generate a maximum of 9 heat and the WSP-1A would manage 11, at that rate even the Wasp would take quite some time Jumping and firing constantly before it generated a heat level that was a significant problem. The thing is at 20-25 tonners and 3025 Tech there just generally isn't the spare tonnage there really to load it up with enough weapons or use the really heat-inefficient ones like the PPC that are going to put it into Heat unless you deliberately design it to do so. Having said that the WSP-1D could generate 4 excess heat per turn, but that's mounting the only weapon more pointless than the Machinegun, the Flamer, and it's the only one I can think of that will generate significant surplus heat. And even then, after three turns at Flamer range, Heat probably isn't going to be the Wasp's only problem (Assuming it's still got the weapons left at that stage to generate heat).
Hm, let me see...
The Stinger 3R couldn't really heat up, but the 3G had 2MLs, so going full out it gained 12 Heat per turn. The Wasp, OTOH, had a lot more variants, and some of them could generate a fair amount of heat for a 20 tonner: The 1K could never gain Heat until damaged, but even the 1A could generate 11 per turn, and the Wolf's Dragoons' 1W had 6 (!) small lasers...
paulson games wrote: Whenever Urbanmechs are mentioned I am reminded of this. They may not be impressive but any mech can land that killing blow.
6 Small Lasers are 6 Heat, that and jumping 6 still only gives you 2 surplus Heat, same as the STG-3G. Either of them have got at least 6 turns before Heat is a danger (if ever) or a bare minimum of 3 turns if you're playing it safe and they can still (hopefully) jump into cover, spend a turn or two cooling down and jump back into the fight again, remember Heat affects Walk and by extension Run but not Jump. If you've put your Wasp in a position where jumping into cover of some sort is not an option, you're probably using it wrong.
AFAIK the WSP-1D is pretty much the worst of the bunch in terms of 3025 light-lights and even then 4 heat at maximum effort is not that terrible, drop the Flamer (Which you probably will have to anyway) or run rather than jump and it becomes 1 excess heat at worse.
The WSP-1A only generates 1 extra Heat per turn, since it sinks 10 of them straight away, at that rate it's got quite a few turns before the pilot even breaks a sweat. What makes the Wasp an easy choice over the Stinger is that it carrying an SRM rather than a pair of MGs meant it can attack at full effect without having to get right up close to do so.
simonr1978 wrote: 6 Small Lasers are 6 Heat, that and jumping 6 still only gives you 2 surplus Heat, same as the STG-3G. Either of them have got at least 6 turns before Heat is a danger (if ever) and they can still (hopefully) jump into cover, spend a turn or two cooling down and jump back into the fight again, remember Heat affects Walk and by extension Run but not Jump. If you've put your Wasp in a position where jumping into cover is not an option, you're using it wrong.
AFAIK the WSP-1D is pretty much the worst of the bunch in terms of 3025 light-lights and even then 4 heat at maximum effort is not that terrible, drop the Flamer (Which you probably will have to anyway) or run rather than jump and it becomes 1 excess heat at worse.
The WSP-1A only generates 1 extra Heat per turn, since it sinks 10 of them straight away, at that rate it's got quite a few turns before the pilot even breaks a sweat. What makes the Wasp an easy choice over the Stinger is that it carrying an SRM rather than a pair of MGs meant it can attack at full effect without having to get right up close to do so.
Yep, in all cases the big "problem" was the jump jets, whch in my experience are used, like, all the damn time ^^. The Spider had it much worse in that regard, being bigger and jumping 8 hexes. The most heavily armed 20 tonner I remember was the Flea FLE-4, which carried a LL, a Flamer and a SL, and it was actually a pretty spiffy sniper (that could do that forever while running).
Now that I remember, two things I'm kinda digging on the new Battletech computer game are Stability damage and weapon hardpoints. Stability Damage because they make some kinds of weapons much more useable compared with just loading up as many energy weapons as you can, and weapon hardpints because I kinda like theidea of having certain limits for the things you can mod on a specific 'mech.
The Spider's a 30 tonner though, a whole 50% heavier than the Locust, Stinger or Wasp, outside of the 20-25 tonne range I mentioned and jumping 8 means it's significantly more likely to be able to find safety behind a level 2 hill or deep into some woods to cool off when it gets hot. Even then, 4 surplus Heat is basically Jump-Shoot, Jump-Don't Shoot, Wash, Rinse, Repeat. Or regard your armament as 1 Medium Laser with a second as back-up, then you can Jump 7 and fire ad infinitum without ever going into the Heat scale unless you get damaged. Jumping 7-8 hexes means you don't even need to bother too much with cover since in 3025 you'll be very difficult to hit anyway. You'll be jumping away and even if you're playing on Planer Bowling Ball, you should be at a minimum of 10+ to hit.
Jump jets in Lights should be used like Run in a Locust, if available it's your best defence against enemy gunfire except for LOS blocking terrain so if you're not jumping or running unless they can't see you, you're also doing it wrong.
It's frustrating because unless your opponent has screwed up you have to shoot a lot of weapons at them to hit them, but if you do hit them, generally you'll hurt them a lot more than they'll hurt you.
That's the problem I have with Pulse Lasers though, they upset that balance and allow Heavies and Assaults to shoot at Lights and Mediums at more or less even odds. Once you hit 3050 tech, Lights and fast Mediums become far less viable.
Orlanth wrote: I have never seen a mech make a shutdown test in battletech, ever.
The target penalties aquired earlier are so grim there is zero point in adding heat at that point.
I did it once, when I fired every weapon on a Mad Cat Prime at once. Narrowly avoided a reactor failure, shut down for a turn then managed to restart before the other side managed to get to me.
I also remember seeing a set of house rules for Battletch that split the turn into "phases" (like in Dark Future, Car Wars or Star Fleet Battles); 10 phases per turn, I think, mechs move one hex per phase up to their max allowance (so a mech with speed 5 moves in phases 2,4,6,8,10, one with speed 3 moves in 3 6, 9, that sort of thing). Weapons could fire with a "cooldown" period equal to the heat rating; a weapon which fired in phase 3 and generated 4 heat could fire again in phase 7 - generating its full heat each time. This made the Locust with MGs the bane of heavier mechs, as it could get in behind them and fire every second phase with its MGs - those 2 damage points add up soon enough!
Orlanth wrote: I have never seen a mech make a shutdown test in battletech, ever.
The target penalties aquired earlier are so grim there is zero point in adding heat at that point.
I did it once, when I fired every weapon on a Mad Cat Prime at once. Narrowly avoided a reactor failure, shut down for a turn then managed to restart before the other side managed to get to me.
Off the top of my head, a Madcat P can dissipate 34 Heat, firing every weapon is 2x ERLL, (24), 2x ERML (10), 2x LRM20 (12), 1 MPL (4), assuming you Ran too that's +18 Heat. Can't recall Reactor Failure on the Heat charts, IIRC in addition to speed and shooting penalties there's Shut Down and Ammo Explosion Rolls, you'd definitely be rolling for shut down but even if you failed you'd definitely be fine the next turn.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I also remember seeing a set of house rules for Battletch that split the turn into "phases" (like in Dark Future, Car Wars or Star Fleet Battles); 10 phases per turn, I think, mechs move one hex per phase up to their max allowance (so a mech with speed 5 moves in phases 2,4,6,8,10, one with speed 3 moves in 3 6, 9, that sort of thing). Weapons could fire with a "cooldown" period equal to the heat rating; a weapon which fired in phase 3 and generated 4 heat could fire again in phase 7 - generating its full heat each time. This made the Locust with MGs the bane of heavier mechs, as it could get in behind them and fire every second phase with its MGs - those 2 damage points add up soon enough!
Some of that sounds similar to the Solaris 7 ruleset.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)
Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.
Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage
One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.
Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.
UM-R60L
Generally associated with the Capellan Confederation, who have modified a few of their UrbanMechs in this fashion, the -R60L is an upgrade to make the UrbanMech twice as deadly as the -R60 version. The -R60L sacrifices two tons of armor, allowing it to replace the Imperator-B Autocannon/10 with an Imperator-Zeta Autocannon/20 that is capable of downing most light 'Mechs and severely damaging most medium 'Mechs in a single salvo. Besides the thinner armor this modification comes with a very limited ammunition supply, which made it unpopular.[1][2] BV (1.0) = 443, BV (2.0) = 470[5]
I can't recall a Large Laser variant though. In 3025 there was only the AC-10 or AC-20 versions IIRC. I always favoured the AC-20 version personally because let's face it, if you're using an Urbanmech you're not going to be getting many shots off at the best of times, might as well make it count when you do.
Heretic. You cannot 'fix' the UrbanMech, it is already perfect. Honestly though all the variants are a downgrade, AC20 sounds great but your range is crap and so is your armour. Urbies don't travel alone, they hunt in packs, they are priced comparably to light tanks and can be employed in numbers even by PDFs. In a pack stock Urbies are better as they have the range brackets to gank opponents. I suppose you could have one AC20 Urbie for a surprise, and get that one closest. But by and large it isnt necessary and you wont know which Urbie will be closest anyway as maneuver is not your forte.
really stick with stock Urbies and remember to deploy at least four. As they are PDF forces usually you dont need to organise them to fit dropships, so lances of six are not inappropriate.
Adding recovered technology to an Urbie is an insult to Urbie. What part of 'cheap and nasty' don't these people understand. Upgrading an Urbie take away from its primary asset, pretty much nothing else is cheaper while remaining useful*, even light tanks can cost more in BV or C-Bills. Furthermore Urbies don't care about your fancy technology. It doesnt matter if you are in a rusty Stinger or a Dire Wolf Prime. Hordes of Urbies pop out from behind buildings and open up with a dozen Ac10's and ruin your day. Next turn its an empty street save for the burning wreck of your mech.
* Savannah Masters are a notable exception, and a legend themselves.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)
Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.
Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage
One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.
Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.
CASE is pointless in a game with IS XL Engines too, unless you're guaranteed to win. If you're going to allow players to underload MG bins, then go for it.
UM-R60L
Generally associated with the Capellan Confederation, who have modified a few of their UrbanMechs in this fashion, the -R60L is an upgrade to make the UrbanMech twice as deadly as the -R60 version. The -R60L sacrifices two tons of armor, allowing it to replace the Imperator-B Autocannon/10 with an Imperator-Zeta Autocannon/20 that is capable of downing most light 'Mechs and severely damaging most medium 'Mechs in a single salvo. Besides the thinner armor this modification comes with a very limited ammunition supply, which made it unpopular.[1][2] BV (1.0) = 443, BV (2.0) = 470[5]
I can't recall a Large Laser variant though. In 3025 there was only the AC-10 or AC-20 versions IIRC. I always favoured the AC-20 version personally because let's face it, if you're using an Urbanmech you're not going to be getting many shots off at the best of times, might as well make it count when you do.
Heretic. You cannot 'fix' the UrbanMech, it is already perfect. Honestly though all the variants are a downgrade, AC20 sounds great but your range is crap and so is your armour. Urbies don't travel alone, they hunt in packs, they are priced comparably to light tanks and can be employed in numbers even by PDFs. In a pack stock Urbies are better as they have the range brackets to gank opponents. I suppose you could have one AC20 Urbie for a surprise, and get that one closest. But by and large it isnt necessary and you wont know which Urbie will be closest anyway as maneuver is not your forte.
really stick with stock Urbies and remember to deploy at least four. As they are PDF forces usually you dont need to organise them to fit dropships, so lances of six are not inappropriate.
Adding recovered technology to an Urbie is an insult to Urbie. What part of 'cheap and nasty' don't these people understand. Upgrading an Urbie take away from its primary asset, pretty much nothing else is cheaper while remaining useful*, even light tanks can cost more in BV or C-Bills. Furthermore Urbies don't care about your fancy technology. It doesnt matter if you are in a rusty Stinger or a Dire Wolf Prime. Hordes of Urbies pop out from behind buildings and open up with a dozen Ac10's and ruin your day. Next turn its an empty street save for the burning wreck of your mech.
* Savannah Masters are a notable exception, and a legend themselves.
No. The Urbanmech is pretty much a dedicated one-trick-pony. It works and it works damn well in a CQB environment. If you can hunt in packs and shoot 2 or 3 AC-20s into an enemy Mech's rear then it'll work especially work well. The AC-10 will hurt a Heavy but is unlikely to kill it like an AC-20 can and the AC-10's extra range is largely wasted on a mech that can at best Run 3. I'd never bother giving one an LB-10 though since it can't get in range of an AC-20 it's not doing its job properly. It's an Urbanmech guys, take the hint!
This is true of one Urbie but how about four or six. Urbies often have to take running or jump penalties, so they need short rage to hit. AC20 short range doesnt cut it unless you are muscling your way forward.
Urbies cannot press an attack like a Hunchback can, they are a rective ambush hunter, and once the opponent cottons on there is an AC20 urbie it will be starved of targets, and possibly isolated and picked off with indirect fire if necessary.
Opponents will not stray within so short a range of an Urbie ambush, especially if you have more than one Urbie. The better range brackets of AC10 make all the difference.
Often they don't because if you're engaging at 5+ hexes you're jumping in premature. At 3 Hexes an AC-20 is much better than an AC-10 and in an urban/jungle setting you should be able to manage that, even if it takes a couple of turns of you jumping out with no targets till you can engage a target to your advantage.
A Hunchback's better but it's 20 tonnes heavier and can't jump, everyone else is faster or can jump better, but no-one can hit harder in that tonnage and jump too. For 3
Hunchbacks that'll struggle just to turn around in a town/forest you can get 5 Jumping Urbanmechs.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)
Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.
Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage
One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.
Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.
Problem is, you can get a CT critical while the mech still has armor to punch through (or at least, you used to be able to).
At under 3 hexes an UM-R60L will do that just as well as an AC-10 UM-R60, except it's more likely to punch through the armour to begin with (Scoring two critical rolls).
It you score a forward CT Critical, you're most likely to score at worst a couple of engine hits or if you're lucky a couple of Gyro hits. You're unlikely though to kill an enemy mech .
With a mech that's Walk 2 Run 3 Jump 2, you're going to outshoot and outmanouever it in open terrain in practically every situation. In a forest or in a city though, with alternating activation it's a different matter.
Stormonu wrote: Yeah, there’s nothing like losing an Atlas to a MG gun ammo explosion (NEVER put that ammo in the Center Torso!)
Belay that order! Do put your ammo centre torso if you don't have CASE.
Side torsos with ammo only are just death traps, as any crit will detonate the bins, unless empty . If you hit the centre torso there is a very good chance you will hit something else other than a magazine, and you have the side torsos as protection against through damage. Unless the bins are empty or near empty the resulting damage
One of the nice things about the Blackjack is centre torso ammo stowage, that and four medium lasers to punish anyone laughing at its purportedly primary armament.
Tip: Short load MG Ammo, doesnt require house rules to do this, simply load up only 6-10 belts into the ammo bins. This is normally enough for a battle anyway.
Problem is, you can get a CT critical while the mech still has armor to punch through (or at least, you used to be able to).
Yes you can with a location roll of snake eyes. However lets look at the odds of that. 1:36 from front or rear. then one two or three location rolls. With several engine and gyro slots, you are likely to hit them. Now adding minor weapons to the center torso can be a good idea to mitigate rerolls, But the chance of hitting the ammo is limited.
If you torso mount you will take an ammo explosion unless it hits a weapon, in many cases a side torso only contains ammo and sometimes more than one ton. This is a death sentence. It is the hidden weakness of some mechs, the Cyclops in particular. t looks mighty but has weak arm armour which means the arm structure burns through quickly leading to hits directly follwng into the ammo bins, and a Cyclops carries four tons of ammo in the side torso.
To make matters worse a snake eyes location roll from the side has the penetrating effect but on the side torso. So there is no mitigation or escape from that lucky floating critical.
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simonr1978 wrote: At under 3 hexes an UM-R60L will do that just as well as an AC-10 UM-R60, except it's more likely to punch through the armour to begin with (Scoring two critical rolls).
It you score a forward CT Critical, you're most likely to score at worst a couple of engine hits or if you're lucky a couple of Gyro hits. You're unlikely though to kill an enemy mech .
With a mech that's Walk 2 Run 3 Jump 2, you're going to outshoot and outmanouever it in open terrain in practically every situation. In a forest or in a city though, with alternating activation it's a different matter.
With a top speed of 3 as soon as the opponent suspects you use an Ac20 Urbie you wont get within effective range of it. Short range and hobbled movement is a bad combo.
Again all your damage stats are noise, you dont field one Urbie you field several, and gank. Four Urbies is a usual minimum, and together they count as or counter one front line mech.
A bunch of us were playing on a larger map, about poster sized. One friend spent her BV on two stock annihilators, while her brother took the same BV in stock urbies.
Outnumbered almost seven to one, by mechs that were tough enough to actually survive a round of fire, she got swarmed by AC 10 wielding jump turrets. I think she managed to kill five of them before her last mech literally got it's legs kicked out from under it. It was a hilarious game of reverse whack-a-mole.
On top of that, when he (Urbie player) started going after the other players, we found it was hard to stop him. Even in the wider open map that the game was being played on, the AC/10's range still kept the mech relevant. Every turn he basically advanced his mob up the field, creating no-go zones, and nothing left could survive the barrage that he could throw out.
A side torso critical is only a real problem if you've only stored ammo there and can even be a benefit if you can make sure you've fired it off early since you can critical hit an empty ammo bin (eg, CRD-3R which has 8 shots of LRM-15 ammo in each side torso, thing is you can fire that off pretty quickly but you can still critical hit an empty ammunition stowage location).
If you jump in behind someone with a UM-R60L your chances of scoring a CT-Crit increase dramatically, not only might you roll a 1-1, but if you roll a 7 you're pretty much guaranteed a critical roll too. If you roll snake-eyes you probably get two rolls. You've also got a 1/36 chance of killing any mech going outright. Something that just doesn't happen with any other weapon in 3025.
If you've got any kind of standard terrain though, the likelihood is that the other guy will pound even an AC-10 armed Urbanmech into scrap long before it'll be effective since every other mech on the board will either be able to outgun it or outrun it and outgun it.
A bunch of us were playing on a larger map, about poster sized. One friend spent her BV on two stock annihilators, while her brother took the same BV in stock urbies.
Outnumbered almost seven to one, by mechs that were tough enough to actually survive a round of fire, she got swarmed by AC 10 wielding jump turrets. I think she managed to kill five of them before her last mech literally got it's legs kicked out from under it. It was a hilarious game of reverse whack-a-mole.
On top of that, when he (Urbie player) started going after the other players, we found it was hard to stop him. Even in the wider open map that the game was being played on, the AC/10's range still kept the mech relevant. Every turn he basically advanced his mob up the field, creating no-go zones, and nothing left could survive the barrage that he could throw out.
Going by BV the ratio should have been around two Annihilators to six or seven Urbanmechs, not 7:1 and 8 AC-10s in 2 mechs vs 1 AC-10 each in 6-7 mechs is a fairly even scrap. I can believe that the two ANH-1As were lost, I find it harder to believe however that the remaining two UM-R60s were that difficult to kill, given that at full movement they'd be a best presenting a +1 to hit (+ Terrain) and they only carry 10 shots in total each for their AC-10s for the whole engagement, realistically they'd have run out of ammo long before they'd run out of targets. Two GRF-1N Griffins would be more than a match even if they didn't move. If there were around 14x UM-R60 against 2x ANH-1A Annihilators then somebody fumbled the numbers and it's not that surprising that a BV over 7,000 force managed to stomp a BV 3,200 force and still had mechs left over to spare.
IME, Urbies do consistently well enough for their weight when used as they are supposed to be, that is, in full lances with proper support and defending stuff, preferably on complex environments. And the AC/10 works very well for it.
It would work better if we were using the videogame's Stability rules, though
Man, I still remember when we played using tonnage, tthat time when I said: "Ok, then I'll just play with the alloted tonnage in Savannah Masters".
If you jump in behind someone with a UM-R60L your chances of scoring a CT-Crit increase dramatically, not only might you roll a 1-1, but if you roll a 7 you're pretty much guaranteed a critical roll too. If you roll snake-eyes you probably get two rolls. You've also got a 1/36 chance of killing any mech going outright. Something that just doesn't happen with any other weapon in 3025.
That is a big if. you have a jump range of 2, so unless your opponent deliberately turns their back on your Urbie, at a stupidly short range, you wont be able to pull this off. in other cases they deserve what they get. To engineer a backstrike yourself you need to be toe to toe with them more of less in order to cross to the back arc. Running (i.e waddling faster) might get you there, but to get there you must already be there.
Now an A10 has a respectable threat range, an Urbie can waddle around the flanks and be ignored temporary as a low threat, if you then force the opposing flank with front line mechs you will engineer circumstances where opponents will have to turn rear armour. Unless your flank move are made of Locusts or similar they are likely to turn back on the Urbies. Now your opponent has to do this, you cant turn a flank so they choose the range bracket they turn back on you. I doubt they will do so at a range less than six unless horribly pressed because even a single AC10 is dangerous in the rear arc. It is very likely that you will get rear targets, but at unrealistic range brackets and ones where you will likely have to run or jump the Urbie anyway, for further weapons penalties.
The whole ideal of 'we ambush them at point blank range from behind buildings' is all well and good, but it requires your opponents cooperation. A longer range band however enables this. If you wonu envisage replacing the AC10 with a PPC I would be listening, but the AC20 Urbie is of use as a single surprise ace in the hole in a larger team of Urbies, or for defending a fortress where the structures themselves provide most of the firepower and Urbies are just a way of moving the short range heavy autocannon 'turrets' to where they are needed.
Frankly it isn't even needed to do what you do. For point blank urban ambush you cant beat an SRM carrier. Well you can, it has a glass chassis, but not until after it has slagged your opponents prize mech. I have two and two Hetzers, they give my clan opponent shivers.
If you've got any kind of standard terrain though, the likelihood is that the other guy will pound even an AC-10 armed Urbanmech into scrap long before it'll be effective since every other mech on the board will either be able to outgun it or outrun it and outgun it.
I agree almost entirely, but even for their primary role of urban combat you need that range so you can pop the ambush at a range relevant to catching a target. Otherwise you wil have to wait until they come right up to you, and they might not take the bait.. I do envisage Urbies for deliberate open combat, but I would fix them up with two AC2's or an LRM20 battery both with an AAA tracker system and leave them as relocatable AAA turrets guarding support and supply elements.. Its more of as a fluff consideration though.
However numbers count, and Urbies ought to have numbers.
A bunch of us were playing on a larger map, about poster sized. One friend spent her BV on two stock annihilators, while her brother took the same BV in stock urbies.
Outnumbered almost seven to one, by mechs that were tough enough to actually survive a round of fire, she got swarmed by AC 10 wielding jump turrets. I think she managed to kill five of them before her last mech literally got it's legs kicked out from under it. It was a hilarious game of reverse whack-a-mole.
On top of that, when he (Urbie player) started going after the other players, we found it was hard to stop him. Even in the wider open map that the game was being played on, the AC/10's range still kept the mech relevant. Every turn he basically advanced his mob up the field, creating no-go zones, and nothing left could survive the barrage that he could throw out.
Nice story and in those numbers it is a moving firebase, and the range was necessary. I doubt this would have worked otherwise.
Man, I still remember when we played using tonnage, tthat time when I said: "Ok, then I'll just play with the alloted tonnage in Savannah Masters".
We stopped using that gauge, for some reason.
Tonnage is in my opinion still the best way to play, it was the original points system for the game in its glory years of the 80's. to early 90's. However Battletech is a non competitive game and has to be played that way. Weapons are imbalanced, tech is imbalanced, designs are imbalanced.
So you choose to take the rough with the smooth, and make sure your opponent does also.
Sometimes we use BV but only when a scenario is predesigned. for pick and play you go by tonnage, and if you take a strong mech you take a weak one and you self police. Sure do take some Savannah Masters to back up the stock Charger you are fielding to round up that section of your list to 100tons. It makes a neat five unit striker force.
"What are you doing Mr Charger?"
"I am taking my pets for walkies."
We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.
We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.
We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.
We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.
Emerald chicken?
Just FYI, but that was Orlanth not me.
The whole ideal of 'we ambush them at point blank range from behind buildings' is all well and good, but it requires your opponents cooperation. A longer range band however enables this. If you wonu envisage replacing the AC10 with a PPC I would be listening, but the AC20 Urbie is of use as a single surprise ace in the hole in a larger team of Urbies, or for defending a fortress where the structures themselves provide most of the firepower and Urbies are just a way of moving the short range heavy autocannon 'turrets' to where they are needed.
It depends, if the Urbanmech is part of a lance with other mech types it should be reasonably possible, especially if you've got the Initiative, to put your opponent in a position where one of their mechs may find themselves exposing their rear quarter, I'm assuming here that most opponents will regard any Urbanmech as a secondary threat because it's a Light that's slower than most Assaults and would probably be concentrating on dealing with the more effective enemy mech first, I'm also assuming that the first indication you'll get that I'm using a UM-R60L is when I declare fire . Or if you're running two or three it should be reasonably possible to position one or more where to turn to face them means exposing yourself to the third, if not then 3x AC-20s firing at you is nothing to be taken lightly.
In my experience they're the sort that can work well as area denial too, if it's 3025 and I know there's an AC-20 armed mech in the area I'll generally try to keep a good distance since I know it can take my mech's head off regardless of what I'm piloting, I wouldn't accord the same degree of caution to an AC-10 armed mech since I'm infinitely more likely to survive a Head hit, so for a mere 30 tonnes that can secure a pretty decent radius, not indefinitely true, but long enough that unless I've got the initiative I'd generally work my way around or call in some support in the form of fast and preferably jumping mechs that can use their speed and mobility to hopefully ensure they wont get hit. Point is, there's a good chance it can slow me down just by existing in the way that pretty much no other light mech can. At the end of the day I guess, whatever works for you. I generally favour the AC-20 in CQB since the trade-off of what you loose in range is more than outweighed in what you gain in damage and the possibility of scoring a one-shot kill and usually the terrain should be dense enough that the longer range boundaries aren't too much of an advantage. If the standard UM-R60 works better for you, then fine.
That said, they also work excellently in heavily wooded areas or jungles where they can match or even actually out-run and out-manouevre some mediums and heavies and the extra-range doesn't matter if you can't see further than 4 or 5 hexes anyway.
Maybe it's just that I've got a healthy respect for the UM-R60L after my first encounter with one when my inquisitive Raven popped over a ridge to see what was on the other side and got an AC-20 to face for its trouble (First shot of the game and it was outside of the -20's Close range as well), maybe I have a fondness for the type because one of the first custom mech designs I dabbled with was an experiment to see what the lightest mech I could cram an AC-20 into was only to find on buying my first book of record sheets that it was almost perfectly mirrored by an existing design.
Frankly it isn't even needed to do what you do. For point blank urban ambush you cant beat an SRM carrier. Well you can, it has a glass chassis, but not until after it has slagged your opponents prize mech. I have two and two Hetzers, they give my clan opponent shivers.
...and if you want a light mech dealing 10 points of damage with a 15+ range for a extra 5 tonnes a PNT-9R will in most circumstances out-range, out-gun, out-run and out-manoeuvre a UM-R60. Rationally, there's almost no good reason to ever chose an Urbanmech. SRM Carriers are just evil though, that said I don't use them in my own units because crew survivability (Along with unit versatility) is a big factor for me in choosing AFVs and SRM Carriers are just far too fragile for my liking (It's too easy to get one to brew-up and take its crew with it and they're just too specialised).
That's one of the reasons why I personally favour a campaign style play though, a PNT-9R might be the obvious choice to me but if what I've managed to salvage and repair is a UMR-60 then that's what the new recruit's getting.
but I would fix them up with two AC2
At design stage there is practically no good reason to chose an AC-5 over a PPC or an AC-2 over an LRM-5 for a Light or Medium Mech. Unless you're going to impose some restriction on the technology available to a particular faction. The AC-2 has a marginal advantage in range, but if you're looking at creating a light, long range harassment mech an LRM-5 will do the job just as well in 90%+ of the circumstances for much less tonnage. A light 3025 Sniper type mech was one of my early experiments, crunching the numbers a couple of LRM-5s was an easy choice over an AC-2.
Nice story and in those numbers it is a moving firebase, and the range was necessary. I doubt this would have worked otherwise.
Worth reiterating here that from the story as recounted and assuming they were using standard Inner Sphere pilots whether you use BV1 or 2 or Tonnage, there were at least twice as many Urbanmechs as there should have been even allowing for some fairly generous rounding so it's not massively surprising that the Annihilators came out worse. If the BV or Tonnage was more or less equal, I'd expect a much closer fight with the remaining Urbanmechs practically out of ammo by the end and incapable of doing anything much more than withdrawing as fast as their stumpy little legs would carry them.
From Sarna the BV1/BV2 for the Annihilator is 1,151/1,434 and for the Urbanmech 454/504. So by either BV system there should have been at most six Urbanmechs or by tonnage seven if you're being generous against two Annihilators. A far cry from 7:1. Using BV2 that would have been 7,056 in Urbanmechs against 2,868 in Annihilators, with BV1 it looks even worse.
Either the OP is mis-remembering or someone seriously miscalculated or fudged their numbers.
We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.
We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.
We also play fluff. I tell my opponent he can have his Blood Asp but only after he fills out the majority of his Binary with Summoners, Hellbringers and Kit Foxes. You should tell from that his/our preferred clan, quiaff.
The whole ideal of 'we ambush them at point blank range from behind buildings' is all well and good, but it requires your opponents cooperation. A longer range band however enables this. If you wonu envisage replacing the AC10 with a PPC I would be listening, but the AC20 Urbie is of use as a single surprise ace in the hole in a larger team of Urbies, or for defending a fortress where the structures themselves provide most of the firepower and Urbies are just a way of moving the short range heavy autocannon 'turrets' to where they are needed.
It depends, if the Urbanmech is part of a lance with other mech types it should be reasonably possible, especially if you've got the Initiative, to put your opponent in a position where one of their mechs may find themselves exposing their rear quarter, I'm assuming here that most opponents will regard any Urbanmech as a secondary threat because it's a Light that's slower than most Assaults and would probably be concentrating on dealing with the more effective enemy mech first, I'm also assuming that the first indication you'll get that I'm using a UM-R60L is when I declare fire .
I am not sure. If you are running a single Urbie in an open lance I might actually shoot the Urbie first. it hasn't much armour and cannot generate movement penalties as a target, only for itself. It can still carry a nasty gun. Sure other things are much nastier but you can get the Urbie over and done with quickly while keeping your own speed up.
Or if you're running two or three it should be reasonably possible to position one or more where to turn to face them means exposing yourself to the third, if not then 3x AC-20s firing at you is nothing to be taken lightly.
If running a pack then a single AC20 is easy to hide and a nasty surprise, but this is outfitting one per lance maximum, with most with stock AC10.
In my experience they're the sort that can work well as area denial too, if it's 3025 and I know there's an AC-20 armed mech in the area I'll generally try to keep a good distance since I know it can take my mech's head off regardless of what I'm piloting,
This is very true. The AC20 has a psychological factor all of its own. It's big numbers psychology . 20 is a big number in Battletech. Gauss rifles and ER PPC are far more potent, but not remotely as scary as the AC20. SRM carriers reach 'big number' psychology by having ten SRM6.
Nothing clears an area quite like a King Crab, or a Hunchback IIC, nothing is nastier, but other designs are far more dangerous.
I wouldn't accord the same degree of caution to an AC-10 armed mech since I'm infinitely more likely to survive a Head hit, so for a mere 30 tonnes that can secure a pretty decent radius, not indefinitely true, but long enough that unless I've got the initiative I'd generally work my way around or call in some support in the form of fast and preferably jumping mechs that can use their speed and mobility to hopefully ensure they wont get hit. Point is, there's a good chance it can slow me down just by existing in the way that pretty much no other light mech can. At the end of the day I guess, whatever works for you. I generally favour the AC-20 in CQB since the trade-off of what you loose in range is more than outweighed in what you gain in damage and the possibility of scoring a one-shot kill and usually the terrain should be dense enough that the longer range boundaries aren't too much of an advantage. If the standard UM-R60 works better for you, then fine.
It works better in general. The AC20 Urbie is a definite one trick dog. Both can be nasty as ambush hunters, but the stock Urbie can get more ambushers in close range and thus cause more actual overall damage. It is difficult to get several Ac20 in decent ranges, though even one mech is nasty. The stock Urbie can easily get several mechs to ambush at once by having a far larger kill net and support range. AC10 can do pack swarms in open battle and generate significant aggressive threat, AC20 Urbie packs in open battle are a curiosity, you just stay away from their corner, and can also shoot into it.
That said, they also work excellently in heavily wooded areas or jungles where they can match or even actually out-run and out-manouevre some mediums and heavies and the extra-range doesn't matter if you can't see further than 4 or 5 hexes anyway.
The JungleMech is the Panther. Energy weapon loadout for protracted battle, just enough mobility to survive and
Maybe it's just that I've got a healthy respect for the UM-R60L after my first encounter with one when my inquisitive Raven popped over a ridge to see what was on the other side and got an AC-20 to face for its trouble (First shot of the game and it was outside of the -20's Close range as well), maybe I have a fondness for the type because one of the first custom mech designs I dabbled with was an experiment to see what the lightest mech I could cram an AC-20 into was only to find on buying my first book of record sheets that it was almost perfectly mirrored by an existing design.
Sounds like you never shook the shock away. That was a lucky hit.
First time my opponent fielded a Dire Wolf it got headcapped by a gauss rifle on its first turn. I never got the idea they were a push over from that, even though he has hardly ever fielded it since (greatly prefering the Blood Asp.)
Frankly it isn't even needed to do what you do. For point blank urban ambush you cant beat an SRM carrier. Well you can, it has a glass chassis, but not until after it has slagged your opponents prize mech. I have two and two Hetzers, they give my clan opponent shivers.
...and if you want a light mech dealing 10 points of damage with a 15+ range for a extra 5 tonnes a PNT-9R will in most circumstances out-range, out-gun, out-run and out-manoeuvre a UM-R60. Rationally, there's almost no good reason to ever chose an Urbanmech. SRM Carriers are just evil though, that said I don't use them in my own units because crew survivability (Along with unit versatility) is a big factor for me in choosing AFVs and SRM Carriers are just far too fragile for my liking (It's too easy to get one to brew-up and take its crew with it and they're just too specialised).
All this is true.
That's one of the reasons why I personally favour a campaign style play though, a PNT-9R might be the obvious choice to me but if what I've managed to salvage and repair is a UMR-60 then that's what the new recruit's getting.
Crewing for vehicles was crudely implemented, it has nothing to do with weapon loadouts, its just one crew per 15 tons or part thereof. Some vehices have unnecessarily large crews. Demolishers for instance. IMHO the SRM carrier would be better as a drone, its slow enough that it can be controlled by a control vehicle rather than an AI.
Have you tried adding the SRM array onto a Demolisher chassis, its fits by the way, being very similar in volume and tonnage. Demolisher SRM is a nasty variant and makes sense. In my head-canon I have " .Hon 'Mech " lances which are two pairs of a stock UrbanMech or occasionally a PPC UrbanMech, paired with a Demolisher or occasionally a Demolisher SRM. Each pair is a mech and tank duo for mutual support. Two .Hon 'Mech lances are backed by a support lance which consists of two Heavy APC's with combat engineer infantry platoon between them, an AAA unit, usually a JagerMech, and an artillery piece, either an LRM carrier or a J-27 with towed Thumper. All this becomes a "Defender Company", the HQ of which is not one of the 'Mechs either.
There are nastier combinations in the game for tabletop play but it makes colourful sense as an static defence element for my head-canon Merc unit.
At design stage there is practically no good reason to chose an AC-5 over a PPC or an AC-2 over an LRM-5 for a Light or Medium Mech. Unless you're going to impose some restriction on the technology available to a particular faction. The AC-2 has a marginal advantage in range, but if you're looking at creating a light, long range harassment mech an LRM-5 will do the job just as well in 90%+ of the circumstances for much less tonnage. A light 3025 Sniper type mech was one of my early experiments, crunching the numbers a couple of LRM-5s was an easy choice over an AC-2.
As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.
Nice story and in those numbers it is a moving firebase, and the range was necessary. I doubt this would have worked otherwise.
Worth reiterating here that from the story as recounted and assuming they were using standard Inner Sphere pilots whether you use BV1 or 2 or Tonnage, there were at least twice as many Urbanmechs as there should have been even allowing for some fairly generous rounding so it's not massively surprising that the Annihilators came out worse. If the BV or Tonnage was more or less equal, I'd expect a much closer fight with the remaining Urbanmechs practically out of ammo by the end and incapable of doing anything much more than withdrawing as fast as their stumpy little legs would carry them.
From Sarna the BV1/BV2 for the Annihilator is 1,151/1,434 and for the Urbanmech 454/504. So by either BV system there should have been at most six Urbanmechs or by tonnage seven if you're being generous against two Annihilators. A far cry from 7:1. Using BV2 that would have been 7,056 in Urbanmechs against 2,868 in Annihilators, with BV1 it looks even worse.
Either the OP is mis-remembering or someone seriously miscalculated or fudged their numbers.
It is far more favourable if balanced in C-bills. 1.5M vs 9.7M. BV is a very crude system, the Urbie is less than the sum of its parts because you pay for a component regardless of what it is on. When doing scenario design in BV we allow for fluff, by agreement you can take more of certain units than their BV suggests as part of a bulk discount. Urbies get that, as do Stingers, other mechs do not. Scorpion tanks get that deal also and get the best discount for buying platoons/lances of all the same.
I'll comment on the rest later I'm sure but this deserves a comment straight away:
The JungleMech is the Panther.
No. It really isn't. Because of the minimum range penalties on the PPC, jungles or heavy woods are the areas that the PNT-9R is definitely at a disadvantage compared to either AC-10 or especialy the AC-20 Urbanmech variant, to have any chance at all of hitting an Urbanmech it would have be inside your minimum range.
Orlanth wrote: This is true of one Urbie but how about four or six. Urbies often have to take running or jump penalties, so they need short rage to hit. AC20 short range doesnt cut it unless you are muscling your way forward.
Urbies cannot press an attack like a Hunchback can, they are a rective ambush hunter, and once the opponent cottons on there is an AC20 urbie it will be starved of targets, and possibly isolated and picked off with indirect fire if necessary.
Opponents will not stray within so short a range of an Urbie ambush, especially if you have more than one Urbie. The better range brackets of AC10 make all the difference.
I would rather hit for 10 than miss with 20.
Ther eis a reason I own a BATTALION of Urbies. You do not deploy them individually, or in lances. They are company formation units.
Man, I still remember when we played using tonnage, tthat time when I said: "Ok, then I'll just play with the alloted tonnage in Savannah Masters".
We stopped using that gauge, for some reason.
Back in the day, when BV 1 came out, there was a terror: The Turkina B. First 'Mech to top 3000 BV, because it was a beast. It was being brought to every bloody game you could find, because Clan pulse lasers and targeting computers.
Local tournament guy said you could bring 3500 BV in 'Mechs, vehicles, and pilots. No infantry. 7 out of 10 players brought Turkey Bs.
I brought Ferret Light Cargo Transport VTOLS, with a BV of...
ONE. So I have counters (which is fine for hex play) for 3500 VTOLs.
VTOLS can't charge, or make physical attacks. But as a vehicle, I could put 2 in every hex. And every LEVEL of every hex. Can't move through an enemy unit, so it couldn't move unless it wanted to charge, but then it couldn't fire all those pulse lasers.
So the Turkina shoots down a half dozen every turn, meanwhile, I just have a handful in a hex above him turn off their engines and crash land on it. Couple points of damage, punch location table.
I encouraged players not to do the cheesy thing, but to play a FORCE. I won the tournament.
Not to derail the lively debate, but I finally found another player in my local area, even if he is an Alpha Strike player! There is some interest so here is too hoping we can get a group started.
Anyway, I've managed to dig out my old mechs for the most part:
A bit assault heavy for a 3000 - 3050 lance, but I intend to add some ore mediums too it, a Crab (from an SLDF cache), a Scorpion (Quads are cool), a Centurion (workhose) and something else. And I need to get an Imp because the urbanmech needs its big brother.
Also, if you want to know why Urbanmechs are so cool? Well, I suggest googling "Urbanmech Nuke".
What? What else did you think the Arrow IV variant was designed for?
Orlanth wrote: This is true of one Urbie but how about four or six. Urbies often have to take running or jump penalties, so they need short rage to hit. AC20 short range doesnt cut it unless you are muscling your way forward.
Urbies cannot press an attack like a Hunchback can, they are a rective ambush hunter, and once the opponent cottons on there is an AC20 urbie it will be starved of targets, and possibly isolated and picked off with indirect fire if necessary.
Opponents will not stray within so short a range of an Urbie ambush, especially if you have more than one Urbie. The better range brackets of AC10 make all the difference.
Back in the day, when BV 1 came out, there was a terror: The Turkina B. First 'Mech to top 3000 BV, because it was a beast. It was being brought to every bloody game you could find, because Clan pulse lasers and targeting computers.
Local tournament guy said you could bring 3500 BV in 'Mechs, vehicles, and pilots. No infantry. 7 out of 10 players brought Turkey Bs.
I brought Ferret Light Cargo Transport VTOLS, with a BV of...
ONE. So I have counters (which is fine for hex play) for 3500 VTOLs.
VTOLS can't charge, or make physical attacks. But as a vehicle, I could put 2 in every hex. And every LEVEL of every hex. Can't move through an enemy unit, so it couldn't move unless it wanted to charge, but then it couldn't fire all those pulse lasers.
So the Turkina shoots down a half dozen every turn, meanwhile, I just have a handful in a hex above him turn off their engines and crash land on it. Couple points of damage, punch location table.
I encouraged players not to do the cheesy thing, but to play a FORCE. I won the tournament.
Frankly I would have considered that pedantry. Those Ferrets would have to be drones, you are asking for a lot of suicidal pilots.
I have fielded a Karnov packed with RL-10's before, piloted by a Wobbie fanatic. To make that make sense I gave him appalling gunnery and piloting skill.
It didnt work out well, I flew the Karnov to close range of the back of a still clan assault mech, then whiffed most of my rolls. I did a little more damage ramming the next turn.
Mechforce UK dealt with this in tournaments by just publishing a list of mechs, you were only allowed to take one mech from the list as part of your unit. I can't recall all the offenders on there but IIRC if a mech carried Clan Large Pulse Lasers and a Targetting Computer, it was probably on the list.
I'd agree that this does seem a somewhat excessive response especially as there are mechs out there that would have given it a good run for its money (The Mechforce UK Thor-E springs to mind), I'd have entirely forgiven your opponent if they insisted on making sure you had all 3,500 record sheets although I'm guessing from what you've described you were probably just going with "If it's hit, it's dead, so why bother?"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: Not to derail the lively debate, but I finally found another player in my local area, even if he is an Alpha Strike player! There is some interest so here is too hoping we can get a group started.
Anyway, I've managed to dig out my old mechs for the most part:
...
-Shogun
...
-snip-
And I need to get an Imp because the urbanmech needs its big brother.
That gives you two Wolf's Dragoons exclusives in one force, not a criticism just an observation. Thematically the core of such a unit could be ex-Dragoons if they're not an actual Wolf's Dragoons force otherwise it'd be a little tougher to justify having two pretty rare mechs together in one force like that, of course if you're not too bothered about playing to the fluff there's no reason not to just pick what you like. Either way's good really.
I'd agree that this does seem a somewhat excessive response especially as there are mechs out there that would have given it a good run for its money (The Mechforce UK Thor-E springs to mind), I'd have entirely forgiven your opponent if they insisted on making sure you had all 3,500 record sheets although I'm guessing from what you've described you were probably just going with "If it's hit, it's dead, so why bother?"
It is nice to teach a lesson to minimaxers who only take ultra optimised mechs, but if someone took a fair lance to battle it would be an unfair burden on them.
I guess this comes down to a difference between a tournament setting or not. In a tournament I'd see nothing wrong in taking the most effective mechs that I'd be allowed to bring. Mechforce UK dealt with it effectively IMO with the A List, unfortunately it goes some way to indicate the state of tournament play in the UK at the time that they also had to ban plastic wallets and water soluble pens and only allowed tournament issued dice to prevent outright cheating too. However, in a tournament you're usually also playing strictly by the rules and that means I personally would want to see record sheets, if nothing else on the basis of "If you're being a dick in response to me being a bit of a dick, then I'll return the favour once more." Maybe you'd actually have them, but even then there's a good chance that slowing the game while I made sure you went through your folder and accurately recorded the damage to Ferret 2,753 and 2,754 rather than any other random VTOL might give me a Draw on what was, let's face it, probably already going to be a very tedious game to begin with.
I guess whilst I can acknowledge the strategy, I just don't think as a protest to opponent's Min-maxing that Max-Minning is really much better**.
In a friendlier setting or as part of a campaign, I'm far more relaxed about it and have fielded some objectively terrible mechs either because it was part of a scenario, it was just what my unit had available at the time, just because I'd seen the record sheet and wanted to give it a try, I'd made a homebrew custom-mech or because I drew that particular mech randomly out of the hat.
If it was a friendly setting and someone was maxing out with full Lances or Stars of A List mechs all the time, it's a bit of a different matter IMO since the expectations are different.
I am not sure. If you are running a single Urbie in an open lance I might actually shoot the Urbie first. it hasn't much armour and cannot generate movement penalties as a target, only for itself. It can still carry a nasty gun. Sure other things are much nastier but you can get the Urbie over and done with quickly while keeping your own speed up.
Then to a degree the Urbanmech will have still done its job because all the while you're shooting at it, and it should survive a few turns assuming they're not locally overly outnumbered, you're not shooting at the other mech(s) and they should be shooting at you. A Panther or Wolfhound will probably do the same job better, but I'm also assuming that for one reason or another I don't have either available, which is why the Urbanmech is here..
Sounds like you never shook the shock away. That was a lucky hit.
That was a lucky hit admittedly, but over the years I've lost far too many very good mechwarriors to fluke head shots (Not just with regard to the AC-20 admittedly, Battletech gets much more deadly for mech pilots once you're playing 3050 Clan invasion onwards, in 3025 though it's surprisingly difficult to kill a mechwarrior. I'll accept a degree of perception bias there, my Veteran and Elite Mechwarriors are far more likely to deployed to a unit on anti-Clan raids so they're comparatively more likely to be killed). With that in mind, even though I usually favour a quite aggressive play-style I'll still generally give the AC-20 a wide berth and treat it with a degree of caution and respect that I don't reserve for the AC-10 or PPC. I can't normally avoid a Gauss Rifle or Clan ER-PPC so those get accepted as occupational hazards, even though a head-hit from one of those is no less fatal, unless you've got COWL and it's from the rear.
Have you tried adding the SRM array onto a Demolisher chassis, its fits by the way, being very similar in volume and tonnage. Demolisher SRM is a nasty variant and makes sense
No, but in my head canon, my unit withdrew the standard AC-20 Demolisher from combat duties until I had the spare funds to upgrade them to Gauss-Demolishers. I lost too many crews to ammo explosions and like I said, I favour crew survivability. I can easily buy another tank, but replacing a Veteran or Elite tank crew is more difficult. Keeping in head-canon mode, I'd expect SRM Demolishers to be similarly vulnerable to their ammo cooking off so my unit commander would probably prefer to avoid them.
As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.
Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly any unit that can't outrun it.
* I've mentioned this at least once before but it's almost always a bad design choice to pick an AC-5 over a PPC, an AC-2 over an LRM-5, an MG or -worse- a Flamer over a Small Laser, but all of those can have some in game justification compared to the stupidity that is One-Shot missile launchers...
** One more edit, I promise! I'm sure this was just a local rule, but in my old gaming group we only used to count kills if they were of an equal or higher type. So a Battlemech pilot could only count other Mechs as kills for pilot advancement, but a Vehicle crew could count other Vehicles and Mechs. I think it was a houserule invoked after one guy Savannah Master swarmed a mech with about 2 dozen of them, crippling it by amputating both legs but making the pilot an instant Elite becuase he "Killed" the Savannah Masters. Was this any kind of official rule or (As I suspect) a combination of bad luck and a degree of snobbery on our part?
As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.
Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly an of unit that can't outrun it.
The idea of the Ac2 Urbie is that it is a re-deployable AAA turret to keep flies (helicopters) off your food (ammo dump).
And what you guys are discussing is a major reason I never got properly stuck into Battletech. Even when I was young it was too easy to pick out the "best" mechs for casual games, etc. Same issue you see with a ton of wargames though, as they ignore the realities of why armies would be limited to certain materiel.
-You have a plant in this system and all they make is the relatively crappy X.
-Your army/government isn't rich enough to afford Y.
-You captured an enemy planet which had a stash of Z, and you've been assigned it.
-A previous succession war or trade war left your army in shambles and you have only old, outdated and crappy mechs.
-You're actually playing a rear echelon secuirty company on a backwater planet.
-You're piloting mechs designed by your House and they suck at designing mechs, etc.
Now I know later Battletech books had all kinds of rules and tables and charts to institute this kind of stuff, but it was so rare to run into someone who had an interest in a prolonged campaign, and all I ever saw was "how many tons do you want to play?", etc. It's one of the key features of the newest video game which I enjoy, not having unlimited chassis/mechs to choose from - putting together scraps to create mechs, etc.
I just wish that the core of Battletech had been more aimed at the 'make due with what you have' kind of approach vs. simply choosing the best things in the book (and even worse when "create your own mechs" started to take full effect...ugh.
As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.
Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly an of unit that can't outrun it.
The idea of the Ac2 Urbie is that it is a re-deployable AAA turret to keep flies (helicopters) off your food (ammo dump).
Which is fine, except a twin-LRM-5 Urbie will do the same job and usually better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elbows wrote: And what you guys are discussing is a major reason I never got properly stuck into Battletech. Even when I was young it was too easy to pick out the "best" mechs for casual games, etc. Same issue you see with a ton of wargames though, as they ignore the realities of why armies would be limited to certain materiel.
-You have a plant in this system and all they make is the relatively crappy X.
-Your army/government isn't rich enough to afford Y.
-You captured an enemy planet which had a stash of Z, and you've been assigned it.
-A previous succession war or trade war left your army in shambles and you have only old, outdated and crappy mechs.
-You're actually playing a rear echelon secuirty company on a backwater planet.
-You're piloting mechs designed by your House and they suck at designing mechs, etc.
Now I know later Battletech books had all kinds of rules and tables and charts to institute this kind of stuff, but it was so rare to run into someone who had an interest in a prolonged campaign, and all I ever saw was "how many tons do you want to play?", etc. It's one of the key features of the newest video game which I enjoy, not having unlimited chassis/mechs to choose from - putting together scraps to create mechs, etc.
I just wish that the core of Battletech had been more aimed at the 'make due with what you have' kind of approach vs. simply choosing the best things in the book (and even worse when "create your own mechs" started to take full effect...ugh.
That's what random allocation tables were for. Also practically, if you were in a backwater planet drawing security duty, you should have only been facing second-line units or a local uprising, generally. You should be piloting standard mechs, custom designed mechs should be the exception. The fact that they have weaknesses are part of the charm. No-one's ever looked at an ARC-2R and thought "Wow, those two rear facing medium lasers are going to come in really useful!" The various factions in the Battletech Succession wars were always to a fairly large extent balanced. Liao was weakest, but less likely to be targetted, Fed-Com (Post alliance), was strongest, but had two powerful enemies in FWL and DCMS. Clan Invasion upset everything.
Play as Mercs and you do have to make do, trust me - I've been doing so for decades in the real world - If you only use what you salvage that makes things a lot more interesting and "Custom Mech Rules" only count for one-offs. my group mitigated this with the simple rules that a custom sheet had to be signed off by two other members and represented by a custom model, that alone killed a lot of errors and min-maxing.
master of ordinance wrote: Not to derail the lively debate, but I finally found another player in my local area, even if he is an Alpha Strike player! There is some interest so here is too hoping we can get a group started.
Anyway, I've managed to dig out my old mechs for the most part:
...
-Shogun
...
-snip-
And I need to get an Imp because the urbanmech needs its big brother.
That gives you two Wolf's Dragoons exclusives in one force, not a criticism just an observation. Thematically the core of such a unit could be ex-Dragoons if they're not an actual Wolf's Dragoons force otherwise it'd be a little tougher to justify having two pretty rare mechs together in one force like that, of course if you're not too bothered about playing to the fluff there's no reason not to just pick what you like. Either way's good really.
It would not be impossible for a Shogun to have been found or salvaged during the Succession War's by a merc company, or anyone really. I mean, sure, it is a terrible design for a supposedly close quarters mech (I always laugh when I read that bit on Sarna), but given the time period any Battlemech was better than none. Or at least, that is how I have fluffed it in to my company anyway, the Imp will be harder to get away with but I was thinking of having it as salvage, or maybe just one that had been purchased, though I cannot recall if the Dragoons had got a large enough production run of them to sell before the Clan Invasion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whilst I am here, anyone wan the stats for Epic 40K vehicles in BT? I also have the stats for an Imperator if anyone is interested.
It would not be impossible for a Shogun to have been found or salvaged during the Succession War's by a merc company, or anyone really. I mean, sure, it is a terrible design for a supposedly close quarters mech (I always laugh when I read that bit on Sarna), but given the time period any Battlemech was better than none. Or at least, that is how I have fluffed it in to my company anyway, the Imp will be harder to get away with but I was thinking of having it as salvage, or maybe just one that had been purchased, though I cannot recall if the Dragoons had got a large enough production run of them to sell before the Clan Invasion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whilst I am here, anyone wan the stats for Epic 40K vehicles in BT? I also have the stats for an Imperator if anyone is interested.
Wolf's Dragoons managed about 4 Regiments, bear in mind they didn't appear until 3005 and they were supposed to be elite mechwarrios, for comparison IIRC the Federated Commonwealth managed about 400 Regiments not including Mercenaries according to Phelan Kell under chemical interrogation. Salvaging one Wolf Draqoon exclusive in a Battalion would be pretty special, managing to get ahold of two Dragoons specials in a reinforced company is exceptional. It's not impossible, but it is unlikely.
As I think you realise the double AC2 Urbie is a fluff consideration only, for head-canon or RPG.
Of course, and to be fair it sounds interesting. It represents one of the few issues I have with Battletech though that there are just some blindingly obviously bad choices when it comes to armament*. The AC-2 Urbanmech sounds like it would make a great harassment mech for a campaign, you pop up, fire off a few rounds then disappear and your opponent has to either make the choice of halting to make repairs or risk going into their next scrap already damaged. Practically though, it should be quite quickly run to ground since there's hardly an of unit that can't outrun it.
The idea of the Ac2 Urbie is that it is a re-deployable AAA turret to keep flies (helicopters) off your food (ammo dump).
Which is fine, except a twin-LRM-5 Urbie will do the same job and usually better.
But that isnt autocannony goodness.
Finding things better than an AC2 isn't hard or particularly clever.
No, but that's kind of my point. You've got to create a situation where you have to have an autocannon rather than a PPC or an LRM-5 for the former to be any kind of sensible choice, it's such an easy decision that it doesn't even bear thinking about.
simonr1978 wrote: No, but that's kind of my point. You've got to create a situation where you have to have an autocannon rather than a PPC or an LRM-5 for the former to be any kind of sensible choice, it's such an easy decision that it doesn't even bear thinking about.
Or be using Special Ammo along with the wonders of having proper targets for it.
An AC/2 or AC/5 Urbie with Flak Ammo is a nasty thing for Aerospace pilots to be facing, but that Vedette will be laughing.
It would not be impossible for a Shogun to have been found or salvaged during the Succession War's by a merc company, or anyone really. I mean, sure, it is a terrible design for a supposedly close quarters mech (I always laugh when I read that bit on Sarna), but given the time period any Battlemech was better than none. Or at least, that is how I have fluffed it in to my company anyway, the Imp will be harder to get away with but I was thinking of having it as salvage, or maybe just one that had been purchased, though I cannot recall if the Dragoons had got a large enough production run of them to sell before the Clan Invasion.
Fluff reasons, that would be as close to impossible as Battletech does. The Shogun DIDN'T EXIST in the Inner Sphere until the Dragoons showed up with a double handful of them in 3005. There are canon references of there only being 9 Shoguns in the Inner Sphere, EVER. The last surviving one was salvaged by a butt-hurt Word of Blake Commander in 3068, I think.
So if you got a Shogun, you're a Wolf's Dragoon. No one else would even have parts for it.
But Rule 1 of Battletech is "If it works for your game, do it." Make up a ridiculous story of why you have one. It's allowed to work. Look at the freaking Black Thorns. If that's not a prime example of "that's not how that's supposed to be" then I don't know what is.
Or be using Special Ammo along with the wonders of having proper targets for it.
An AC/2 or AC/5 Urbie with Flak Ammo is a nasty thing for Aerospace pilots to be facing, but that Vedette will be laughing.
Even then though, against a VTOL an AC-2 with Flak ammo is usually at best going to make a very difficult to impossible shot merely a difficult one (Even assuming that you're using the standard rather than the expanded movement charts where 15-20 Flank movement really makes a difference) and even an AC-5 hit against all but the lightest VTOLs is unlikely to bring one down before it can turn tail or use its high movement to close and get a few shots off. True you might still drive off an attacker, but that's at a big cost to your surface-surface fire which will go from poor already to essentially ineffective. Against conventional fighters a Flak AC-5 is a more bit of a threat, but it would need pretty a concentrated barrage to bring down even a Mechbuster and most Aerospace fighters will shrug that off easily at least long enough to drop any bombs they're carrying. In most cases a Flak-2 is going to do little more than scratch the paint except in mass fire against a single target, and then I'd suggest that you'll be at a significant disadvantage on the ground if you're opponent spends roughly equal tonnage on more conventional light mechs.
That said, this is an idea I might steal for my mercenary unit as a 3rd Line AAA unit which supplemented by a handful of Riflemen could free up an artillery battery or two for front line duty and might be a better use of any salvaged Urbanmechs instead of allocating them to the Training Battalion which is where they usually end up. However I'd never want them to actually see an enemy mech or tank, they'd be strictly a "Last line of Defence" type unit.
Mattlov wrote: Look at the freaking Black Thorns. If that's not a prime example of "that's not how that's supposed to be" then I don't know what is.
About the only moment I can think of that broke my suspension of disbelief more than Rose taking out a Masakari in a Charger was Adam Steiner's Axman taking twin AC-20 Ultras to the back in the cartoon series. I can accept a certain degree of narrative interpretation in the stories to allow key characters to survive and make sure key victories happen, I'm even willing to give Kai Allard-Liao a double pass for his somewhat questionable exploits, but there are some moments that stretch things just a bit too far even for me.
Mattlov wrote: Look at the freaking Black Thorns. If that's not a prime example of "that's not how that's supposed to be" then I don't know what is.
About the only moment I can think of that broke my suspension of disbelief more than Rose taking out a Masakari in a Charger was Adam Steiner's Axman taking twin AC-20 Ultras to the back in the cartoon series. I can accept a certain degree of narrative interpretation in the stories to allow key characters to survive and make sure key victories happen, I'm even willing to give Kai Allard-Liao a double pass for his somewhat questionable exploits, but there are some moments that stretch things just a bit too far even for me.
Joanna and the jump jet attack against Natasha Kerensky. That was my moment. All these years later I still shake my head at that. Kill an iconic character in a universe appropriate way (in this case, actual combat as portrayed in the game) not in a cinematic, hand-wavy manner like firing jump jets at a cockpit. I know they later added a game rule for that type of attack, but still. It was after-the-fact and still a stupid way to kill off such a neat character. Jamie Wolf at least got a proper send off when he died on Outreach.
I wasn't a fan of the Falcon Guard story line to begin with. The bit with Jorge/Aidan singing to himself during his Trial of Refusal was just cringingly awful, but was really only a low point of a low point as far as the novel series go (Not counting one-offs) and that's coming from someone who regards the GDL books as genuinely quite horribly cliched and predictable, that said I came to Falcon Guard fairly late in my reading of the novels, if I'd read them in order of release I might have had an even lower opinion. I say that also as someone who's a dedicated Jade Falcon player when I play Clan too, I'm genuinely ashamed by some of the background material that goes with that faction.
simonr1978 wrote: I wasn't a fan of the Falcon Guard story line to begin with. The bit with Jorge/Aidan singing to himself during his Trial of Refusal was just cringingly awful, but was really only a low point of a low point as far as the novel series go (Not counting one-offs) and that's coming from someone who regards the GDL books as genuinely quite horribly cliched and predictable, that said I came to Falcon Guard fairly late in my reading of the novels, if I'd read them in order of release I might have had an even lower opinion. I say that also as someone who's a dedicated Jade Falcon player when I play Clan too, I'm genuinely ashamed by some of the background material that goes with that faction.
Every Robert Thurston novel could be removed from canon and the universe would not be diminished...
Every Robert Thurston novel could be removed from canon and the universe would not be diminished...
Sadly, I also agree, at least based on the first three. I'm not particularly inclined to read the others since I'm assuming they're probably more of the same.
Talking of bad Battletech, I picked up a copy of Star Lord from a charity shop the other day. Definitely one of the weaker novels, but worth £1 for the chance to re-read it.
simonr1978 wrote: No, but that's kind of my point. You've got to create a situation where you have to have an autocannon rather than a PPC or an LRM-5 for the former to be any kind of sensible choice, it's such an easy decision that it doesn't even bear thinking about.
It always is, apart from the AC20 and later the RAC5.
Energy is better, no ammo explosions, to make matters worse energy is cooler as if you match tonnage in comparable energy weapon plus heat sinks vs an autocannon you get less heat overall.
Autocannon exist in their own fluff bubble, always have.
I can't think of a situation where you would not want to swap an AC2 or AC5 for LRMs. And a PPC is superior to an AC10, and a large laser is an efficient less problematic alternative to the AC10 also.
You take autocannon to feel the kick of the gun, its a fluff perspective weapon, again with caveat to AC20 and RAC5.
simonr1978 wrote: I wasn't a fan of the Falcon Guard story line to begin with. The bit with Jorge/Aidan singing to himself during his Trial of Refusal was just cringingly awful, but was really only a low point of a low point as far as the novel series go (Not counting one-offs) and that's coming from someone who regards the GDL books as genuinely quite horribly cliched and predictable, that said I came to Falcon Guard fairly late in my reading of the novels, if I'd read them in order of release I might have had an even lower opinion. I say that also as someone who's a dedicated Jade Falcon player when I play Clan too, I'm genuinely ashamed by some of the background material that goes with that faction.
Every Robert Thurston novel could be removed from canon and the universe would not be diminished...
I disagree. I much prefer him to Stackpole.
Stackpole has his strengths he is at his best when describing technology, but that is all he has got. His plot lines are unintelligent in the worst way, that is to say he writes 'clever' characters that in order to make his purported cleverness to work he makes their foil blindingly incompetent, stages everything through a mass of background stars-are-right fiat, and then provides a double helping of annoying smugness when his protagonist moves in for the takedown, normally with a one liner showing how awesome he is at r0xx0r.
Now fiat is inherent in fantasy literature, but Thurstons protagonists tends to have visible flaws, tended to fail as often as they succeeded or had a strong underdog or a tragic hero theme. Where Aidan Pryde does pull off one-man-army stunts he does so according to the rules of heroic literature. Notably that great victory against the odds must have a price. A lot is forgiven with regards to fiat when the protagonist takes down his enemy with him.
Stackpole wouldn't know how to have a Thermopyle-esque stand, his protagonist would destroy the enemy army, have a crushing moral victory also and emerge later without a scratch. Though he might appear dead for a while.
I find Thurstons protagonists endearing, and they are the principle reason I chose CJF as my faction, I even took a liking to the GDL though they were halfway to Stackpole. I do not know of a Stackpole major protagonist who I do not find deeply annoying. Leaping from pinnacle of victory to pinnacle of victory upon the backs of commonly competent opponents who suddenly ate a boatload of stupid pills, again and again so the big hero can get to the top and bask in perpetual smugness.
And no this is not because Falcons bear the brunt of this, they do OK.
To each his own but I disagree on Stackpole. I definitely find his characters to be better rounded than Thurston's Falcons or Keith's Grey Death Legion. It's been a while since I read the Jade Falcon books but I seem to recall that Pryde's Trial of Refusal is an almost comical walkover and whilst it's true that he was put in that position because he was over confident in his first Trial of Position and to have him singing a Battletech nursery rhyme whilst he was doing it was just bad writing IMO.
YMMV but I'd take Stackpole's books over Thurston's any day. Not pretending Stackpole's perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but for the most part I can read an engagement in a Stackpole book and imagine it playing out on the tabletop to the point that they almost read like narrative battle reports, there are exceptions but I'm generally willing to let them pass as occasions when he needed a particular character to survive so wrote them out of certain destruction.
I'd also disagree that Stackpole's characters don't have visible flaws, IMO there are very few characters that are completely good or completely evil, the majority being somewhere inbetween, by comparison going from memory Thurston's were fairly indistinguishable in that they all came over as overconfident to the point of arrogance and that was about it. Keith's GDL books IIRC are if anything even more one dimensional in that they're always indisputably the good guys, they're inevitably betrayed or framed and always eventually win out against seemingly insurmountable odds, with any character flaws being pretty few and far between with Legionnaires almost invariably and I found quite blandly being brave, honourable and noble regardless of situation or circumstance. The books are predictable to the point that within about the first one or two dozen pages I could generally tell pretty accurately how the rest of the plot was going to pan out.
Stackpole wouldn't know how to have a Thermopyle-esque stand, his protagonist would destroy the enemy army, have a crushing moral victory also and emerge later without a scratch. Though he might appear dead for a while.
That IMO is the final scenes of pretty much all of Keith's Grey Death Legion books that I've read in a nutshell. They'd end up hopelessly outnumbered but would win out, clear their name/defeat the evil conspiracy and emerge ultimately stronger than ever, all in time to do it again for the next book.
Mr Morden wrote: Loved Grey Death novels when they came out - I was quite upset when i read the last book with Lori in.
Still have them and leant them to friends playing MWo along with the Warrior trilogy which i am also a big fan off.
Victor Milan's novels I also enjoyed immensley
Victor Milan wrote the most fun Battletech novels. The Caballeros were an interesting unit, and even if some side character only got one line, there was a personality infused into it. I also liked how he was not afraid to kill off people.
He was probably my favorite author. RIP, Victor...
Close Quarters is my favourite BT novel, full stop.
I didn't like the next two books nearly as much, but I think that I really need to get round to painting up Camacho's Cabelleros for my IS mechs. There are so many memorable scenes in the books and you've got to love Cowboy (who is totally played by Owen Wilson in my brain-movie).
My Clan mechs? Jade Falcon.
I really liked Thurston's novels - of course all the characters are arrogant and overconfident, they're Jade Falcon!
simonr1978 wrote: Agreed that Victor Milan's books were very good, I'd add Pardoe's novels on the Northwind Highlanders to the list of Good Battletech fiction too.
Or be using Special Ammo along with the wonders of having proper targets for it.
An AC/2 or AC/5 Urbie with Flak Ammo is a nasty thing for Aerospace pilots to be facing, but that Vedette will be laughing.
Even then though, against a VTOL an AC-2 with Flak ammo is usually at best going to make a very difficult to impossible shot merely a difficult one (Even assuming that you're using the standard rather than the expanded movement charts where 15-20 Flank movement really makes a difference) and even an AC-5 hit against all but the lightest VTOLs is unlikely to bring one down before it can turn tail or use its high movement to close and get a few shots off. True you might still drive off an attacker, but that's at a big cost to your surface-surface fire which will go from poor already to essentially ineffective. Against conventional fighters a Flak AC-5 is a more bit of a threat, but it would need pretty a concentrated barrage to bring down even a Mechbuster and most Aerospace fighters will shrug that off easily at least long enough to drop any bombs they're carrying. In most cases a Flak-2 is going to do little more than scratch the paint except in mass fire against a single target, and then I'd suggest that you'll be at a significant disadvantage on the ground if you're opponent spends roughly equal tonnage on more conventional light mechs.
That said, this is an idea I might steal for my mercenary unit as a 3rd Line AAA unit which supplemented by a handful of Riflemen could free up an artillery battery or two for front line duty and might be a better use of any salvaged Urbanmechs instead of allocating them to the Training Battalion which is where they usually end up. However I'd never want them to actually see an enemy mech or tank, they'd be strictly a "Last line of Defence" type unit.
An Urbanech configured for AAA needs an AA tracker which swaps in bonuses to hit air in return for penalties to hit ground targets, IIRC +/-2. As a pair of AC2's is useless against ground target anyway, this is not problem. With your Urbie turret stationary guarding a depot the chances of damaging a fast moving VTOL is pretty good.
What mech is on the cover? If is something similar to a Warhammer, the mechs are of a lesser quality material and probably some defects (bases not complete, that sort of stuff). If its an Atlas, the material is better and you'll probably won't see any defects.
As to mechs, both should have the same: Commando, Spider, Jenner, Panther, Assassin, Cicada, Clint, Hermes II, Whitworth, Vindicator, Enforcer, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Dervish, Dragon, Quickdraw, Catapult, Jagermech, Grasshopper, Awesome, Zeus, Cyclops, Banshee and Atlas.
Had something strange happen today. Was at my local store and playing battletech and a few people come over to watch, they recognised the models from that new battletech game and didn’t know it was a tabletop game too.
Looks like words getting around and people are becoming aware of battletech, this is only a good thing in my eyes.
Albertorius wrote: What mech is on the cover? If is something similar to a Warhammer, the mechs are of a lesser quality material and probably some defects (bases not complete, that sort of stuff). If its an Atlas, the material is better and you'll probably won't see any defects.
As to mechs, both should have the same: Commando, Spider, Jenner, Panther, Assassin, Cicada, Clint, Hermes II, Whitworth, Vindicator, Enforcer, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Dervish, Dragon, Quickdraw, Catapult, Jagermech, Grasshopper, Awesome, Zeus, Cyclops, Banshee and Atlas.
Albertorius wrote: What mech is on the cover? If is something similar to a Warhammer, the mechs are of a lesser quality material and probably some defects (bases not complete, that sort of stuff). If its an Atlas, the material is better and you'll probably won't see any defects.
As to mechs, both should have the same: Commando, Spider, Jenner, Panther, Assassin, Cicada, Clint, Hermes II, Whitworth, Vindicator, Enforcer, Hunchback, Trebuchet, Dervish, Dragon, Quickdraw, Catapult, Jagermech, Grasshopper, Awesome, Zeus, Cyclops, Banshee and Atlas.
It has a MadCat on the cover.
Hmmm, ok, wasn't aware that it was different. Then I'm assuming is this one:
the new starter box set that was released in June 2017 includes a mini-campaign about the Jade Falcons' attack on Barcelona and two of the new high-quality gaming boards (double-sided), with two entirely new hexmaps named "Country Side" and "Mine". Not sure what the other two (classic) maps are.
According to product manager Michael Mingers on the Ulisses forum, the eight plastic miniatures are Daishi, Nova, Mad Cat, Uller, Centurion, Orion, Victor, Javelin (the eight 'Mechs from the More Mechs box).
Apparently the minis are old stock from the Citytech 2 box, and aren't of very good quality... but hey, plastic Clan mechs!
Catalyst should hire a decent plastics company to make decent plastic kits. Renedra would be a good choice.
Those mechs were ok for the early 90's, but not for today, besides Citytech contained two sprues. It you are going to produce fugly soft plastic mechs you could at least provide a fair few of them.
I think this may have come up before, but - are the Alpha Strike minis the same as the classic Battletech mechs? I found some cheap sets, but if I get them I'd like them to be in same scale as the old metal & plastic mechs I already have.
Mmmpi wrote: Yeah, but a company of locusts is a lot fewer points then a company of heavies.
I'm mostly just wondering if there's a settled upon good "average" points level, like 40K and 1,500 (ish) or Heavy Gear and 150.
It takes about as much time to handle a Locust as an Atlas. A Locust has three guns, an Atlas seven, and an Atlas will be on the table longer but that is about it.
Company-a-side is a reasonable suggestion for you. For low points games a company of lights and vehicles, for higher points games a company of heavies to assaults.
At the same time the Atlas is about four times the price of the Locust and then some, and it is also a lot slower.
Though in AS you should aim for maybe a Lance to start off with, and then build up to 400ish points. Start with the basics though, and leave vehicles, artillery, and all the other rules out until you are ready.
Catalyst should hire a decent plastics company to make decent plastic kits. Renedra would be a good choice.
Those mechs were ok for the early 90's, but not for today, besides Citytech contained two sprues. It you are going to produce fugly soft plastic mechs you could at least provide a fair few of them.
The original CityTech box they were in had two of each, so at least got 16 plastic mildly shaped turds. I would not be surprised if those were original molds that have now seen 20 years of use.
The Javelins were passably ok. I had a lot of Plastech CityTech and unseen Battletech mechs. They still form the core of my Battletech collection and have for neigh on twenty five years.
They were servicalbe for plastic miniatures of the time, not they are completely inadequate.
And yes they are very likely the same molds, they wouldn't choose those mechs otherwise, its not even a decent lineup of mechs.
Catalyst should hire a decent plastics company to make decent plastic kits. Renedra would be a good choice.
Those mechs were ok for the early 90's, but not for today, besides Citytech contained two sprues. It you are going to produce fugly soft plastic mechs you could at least provide a fair few of them.
The plasrtics from CityTech weren't even good for the early 90s. They were a massive step down compared to the plastics from the 3rd edition Battletech boxed set - which were still the same shiny soft plastic, but at least had some details on them, and painted up OK.
That said, from what I understand they have not made a new batch for the german starter: it was rather that they existed and the german publisher needed a new starter set, so they used them.
Which means that a lot of those sprues must have been gathering dust for 20 years somewhere...
I've got quite a bit of mileage out of the Citytech minis, myself.
Okay, so all of them, bar the Javelin need a varying amount of modification (arm reposing at a minimum), but they're not useless after they've been painted up.
None of this applies to the Victor, though. I have not managed to get that thing to look right, no matter what.
Well, my GermanMechs came in. While not the highest quality, they have managed to escape any noticeable mold defects. A coat of paint should cover any of the remaining sins of these models.
I still use those CityTech minis today. Hell, I remember being at home studying for my final school exams when my sealed copy of CityTech 2 (bought off eBay) arrived. Exciting day. And trust me, when the only BattleTech mini you own is an old Warhammer from the 3rd Ed box, and everything else you have is a cardboard standup from the 4th Ed box, those CityTech 'Mechs are fething amazing.
But forget the mins for a second... are those new maps in that German box?
Orlanth wrote: Amen to that. Though I cant afford company sized UrbanMech forces.
Yeah I've got two. An an Urbie IIC. And the big Urbie, the Imp, to lead them. I call them The Egg Men.
They are old but to be fair they were pretty poor even when they originally came out in the mid-1990s. I never really understood why the Daishi and Madcat had to be posed with their arms linked to their knees, but I'm assuming that there was a reason of some sort.
So, I was looking at the Shoguns fluff, and a number where still being operated after the exodus of the SLDF. It is conceivable that one could be found in an old SLDF cache.
Yes it's true that this is a possibility and it's something that often gets forgotten that even the TROs as a whole were not written as being 100% unfailingly accurate in universe, so it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a single Shogun may have been uncovered from an old SLDF cache somewhere that didn't come to wider attention. To be fair though, I don't recall that anyone was particularly saying that you absolutely couldn't have a Shogun or an Imp in your unit, but broadly that having either in a company that isn't a Wolf's Dragoons unit would be unusual to say the least (and a single Shogun being recovered from a cache doesn't really change that) and having both together would be extremely unlikely.
I wouldn't have a problem with you fielding either or both in a game and not just because I don't think the Shogun's a particularly good mech, but if you're going to come up with a head-canon way of explaining how the Shogun found its way into a non-Dragoons unit where there also happened to already be an Imp, there are more interesting ways of doing so IMO than resorting to the "Star League Cache" explanation, they could be piloted by a pair of disgruntled ex-Dragoons who were somehow able to take their mechs with them when they left for example (A Rhonda's Irregulars type unit is a possibility). Of course, you don't have to provide any explanation beyond just liking the mechs and wanting to have a game with them.
I like the idea of the disgruntled ex-dragoon. To tell the truth though, its a case of what I have and do not have at the moment when it comes to deploying Mechs, so I am a bit limited. I have to agree though, the only variant of the Shogun worth using is the individual Jihad era one, with its LBXAC5's. That said, the prime variant does find its way into a fire support lance when other missile boats are not on the offing.
master of ordinance wrote: I like the idea of the disgruntled ex-dragoon. To tell the truth though, its a case of what I have and do not have at the moment when it comes to deploying Mechs, so I am a bit limited. I have to agree though, the only variant of the Shogun worth using is the individual Jihad era one, with its LBXAC5's. That said, the prime variant does find its way into a fire support lance when other missile boats are not on the offing.
One of the most wonderful aspects about Battletech is the lack of WYSIWYG requirement. If you have a Shogun model? Great? You don't have to call it a Shogun, but even have it be a lighter mech that was just cobbled together to look a lot like a Shogun! Treat it as a modified Crusader (SRMS in the torsos instead of legs) if you want. It's big stompy shooty 'Mechs, what's not to love?
By the way, what are peoples opinions on trains in BT? I'm working on an armoured train for use in BT and the rules look interesting, but I have never tried them out before.
From what I understand there is a set limit to how many carriages a engine can pull, and you can mix and match carriages so long as you do not exceed the engines limit. Is this correct?
Its a factor of mass. With land trains you get na engine car and trailer cars. Normally the engine car masses the same as all the trailer cars. You have to add tonnage for what are the equivalent of lift hoists so you can pull your own tonnage around without loss of speed.
There are two land trains available, though you can generate more under standard vehicle rules. These are the Elite Series 3 and the Prairie Schooner. There is nothing comperable to the Amtrak Wars land trains, though there is nothing stopping you from having multiple power cars, and snake several trains together.
Railway trains themselves are not really covered in Battltech, except that trains have an estimated mass and a speed rating and you can calculate the damage caused by a train impact. There is an example in one of the expansion books covering just that. Long and the short of it is that a train impacting at reasonable speed will wreck just about anything.
master of ordinance wrote: So, I was looking at the Shoguns fluff, and a number where still being operated after the exodus of the SLDF. It is conceivable that one could be found in an old SLDF cache.
Also the Dragoons may well have left some on battlefields - especially the larger ones.
Lets work this out. How to get Wolf's Dragoons speciality equipment in numbers?
1. Join Wolf's Dragoons, and this is not easy, and you likely wont survive running out on them with mechs.
2. Taking the mechs off them. Ok, not viable, a Stinger yes, an Imp, not likely.
3. Loot a battlefield. Wolf's Dragoons fought two major engagements where they took massive casualties in this part of the timeline. Misery in 3028 and Hesperus in 3019, and the latter was a defeat.
4. Loot a derelict dropship. Dragoons fought many bloody engagements in seperation, it might be possible for a whole dropship to be disabled and lost, and later salvaged.
I suggest that a hoard of Dragoon tech is best accounted for by:
a Defending/ witnessing the defence of Hesperus. The Lyrans were desperate and bussed in lots of mercenaries. Notably Hsien's Hotheads and Hansen's Roughriders, your characters could be affiliated with either or minor independents, or even former Lyran house troops. Hesperus is a good bet as the Dragoons were forced to retreat after taking massive casualties, so salvage is guaranteed, it is just a matter of who gets it. Hesperus is not the sort of place where you can just dig up bones, its watched and wired, so you need to either 'ninja' the loot, or be well connected. The former is more likely, scavengers are drawn to battlefields an a neutral force can sweep in and loot salvage more easily because it is not interested in the actual fighting.
b. Hanging around Marik space after Duncan Mariks rebellion. The Wolf's Dragoons were split up to fight the rebellion on many fronts. There were many small unit actions, and thus small unit deployments. House Marik is no slouch when it comes to aerospace assets so it is not a desperate stretch that a Dragoon dropship is shot up by Reivers and then lost if the fighters are redeployed in the battle before trackers are in place. A dead dropship could easily contain two or more intact mechs, its a matter of blind chance to find a dropship in these conditions. A dropship is only likely to be missed if there is nly a small engagement and also there is a secondary target to draw fighters away. Wolf's Dragoons are heavy on jumpship assets and can afford to deploy company or battalion sized forces by Leopard. A company of Dragoons making a raid from three Leopards, could be caught by Marik aerospace and one Leopard destroyed, the wreck is lost because the aerospace fighters have to chase the other two an drifts off into the void. The Dragoons are forced to retreat, but the Marik forces are too hard pressed, or their dropships are damaged and cannot adequately track the wreck (not unlikely Marik space is particularly backward). Thus neither side gets to recover. Later someone with access to recordings of the engagement can plot likely vector and speed of the wreck and find it. Voila Dragoon mechs.
These are two good options to justify the assets. Wolfnet will not come after you for looting battlefield salvage, its a common action, so long as you didnt interfere with or deny medical aid.
Option c. You really helped them out, maybe passed on some info that really made a job easier, or helped out their families when they were in a bind. As thanks, they let you buy a couple of their more smashed up mechs. Similar to Barber's Mauraders II.
Mmmpi wrote: Option c. You really helped them out, maybe passed on some info that really made a job easier, or helped out their families when they were in a bind. As thanks, they let you buy a couple of their more smashed up mechs. Similar to Barber's Mauraders II.
Only if you insist. It happens in some of the novels granted, but its just fiat. Use fiat if you must, but ignore it if you can.
This is the same answer as Join Wolfs Dragoons. You are talking about affiliated membership right here However mech givaways are rare, rare mech givaways more so.
Reviewing the consequences t also means you have heavy backup and aren't really a lone mechwarrior out on your own, its a Mary Sue of a backstory. "Knew Jaime Wolf, he showered me with mechs", I think we can do better than that.
Mmmpi wrote: Option c. You really helped them out, maybe passed on some info that really made a job easier, or helped out their families when they were in a bind. As thanks, they let you buy a couple of their more smashed up mechs. Similar to Barber's Mauraders II.
Only if you insist. It happens in some of the novels granted, but its just fiat. Use fiat if you must, but ignore it if you can.
This is the same answer as Join Wolfs Dragoons. You are talking about affiliated membership right here However mech givaways are rare, rare mech givaways more so.
Reviewing the consequences t also means you have heavy backup and aren't really a lone mechwarrior out on your own, its a Mary Sue of a backstory. "Knew Jaime Wolf, he showered me with mechs", I think we can do better than that.
Compared to "Be on one single planet on the exact day and time to salvage a specific rare mech"? I believe you doth protest too much.
Also the Dragoons may well have left some on battlefields - especially the larger ones.
It is possible, but again you come up against the issue of how likely or not it is. Even within the Dragoons the Shogun and Imp would be fairly unusual so pretty much outside of full regimental deployments or unless your unit has a protracted experience of combat against the Dragoons the chances of you encountering one of those never mind both to begin with are fairly small. I'm not suggesting that the Dragoons never lose or have to abandon equipment, but even if you do encounter one you then have to destroy it and secure the battlefield long enough to get the recovery vehicles and those mechs have to have been destroyed in such a way as to be economically repairable rather than write-offs and bear in mind that the Dragoons themselves will be pretty much your only source of spares so any destroyed body segments are likely to stay that way for the duration of the conflict unless you kill and salvage a second example with the required section intact.
It's just not that plausible from a fluff perspective to find both in a company sized unit outside of the Dragoons themselves for this reason. One or the other, OK, maybe, but both...?
Recovered from a Dropship shootdown is also possible but then you still run up against the first point of contention that it'd be somewhat unusual to find one in a Dragoon's Lance or Company to begin with and two would be doubly unusual.
Compared to "Be on one single planet on the exact day and time to salvage a specific rare mech"? I believe you doth protest too much.
You're talking about somewhere in the region of 30 Million C-Bills worth of kit there though and a Mercenary unit (Even Wolf's Dragoons) is a business, they'd not last long even with their reputation if that was the sort of thing they made a habit of doing. It's possible however also unlikely that a couple of ex-Dragoons were able to take their mechs with them by accruing enough money somehow to purchase them, the problems with this as an explanation though is that it's a huge chunk of money and what's the probability that the Dragoons would be happy to sell on such pretty unique kit?
Well, being pretty unique means having a control over a high portion of the needed supplies for it. If someone uses your stuff, that only you use and have spare parts for, it makes them a lot more... controllable.
I guess a lot depends on how strictly you play salvage. I'd always assumed that things like actuators were fairly interchangeable in the hands of an experienced tech crew, so for example you could probably repair/replace a damaged leg actuator on an Imp with one recovered from a wrecked Atlas with a bit of work, but if the entire leg was destroyed you'll probably need either a replacement from the factory or a leg from a second wrecked Imp, you couldn't just take the entire leg from the same Atlas and bolt it in place.
Well, we used to be fairly strict in that regard: if you needed actuators, you could either get ones from the same design, form a related one (Wasp/Stinger, for example), or you could jury-rig them from some actuator of the same class, but they will always work quirky.
The more "special" was your ride, the harder it would be to get it well maintained.
For me I think most of that was covered by the Repair Roll, a successful roll and the techs have managed to get the replacement part to fit and work correctly or a failed roll indicates that it's totally incompatible and can't be made to work.
I'm generally in favour of being fairly strict when it comes to salvage, so stuff like making sure body parts get like-for-like replacements from the appropriate chassis is fine and I don't just assume that a salvaged mech is repaired unless I have enough of the right spares available to fix it back up. But if I had to keep track of which specific mech type each salvaged actuator came from I think I'd struggle to ever repair any salvaged mechs since I tend to use the Mechwarrior 2nd Edition Encounters tables and deliveries of supplies or encounters with traders who might have such specific pieces of equipment happen at best infrequently.
Compared to "Be on one single planet on the exact day and time to salvage a specific rare mech"? I believe you doth protest too much.
You're talking about somewhere in the region of 30 Million C-Bills worth of kit there though and a Mercenary unit (Even Wolf's Dragoons) is a business, they'd not last long even with their reputation if that was the sort of thing they made a habit of doing. It's possible however also unlikely that a couple of ex-Dragoons were able to take their mechs with them by accruing enough money somehow to purchase them, the problems with this as an explanation though is that it's a huge chunk of money and what's the probability that the Dragoons would be happy to sell on such pretty unique kit?
Oh, not likely at all, but in the fluff there are occasional mentions of equipment that a bigger/stronger/richer force wouldn't bother fixing, at least when they could find other supply to replace them. It's not completely unreasonable to think that the Dragoons would recover the mechs, and then decide not to fix them, but someone else might be interested. I also don't think it's the most common possible solution, just that it's as conceivable as ninja looting on one of the most heavily defended worlds in the inner sphere in the middle of a battle.
Compared to "Be on one single planet on the exact day and time to salvage a specific rare mech"? I believe you doth protest too much.
You're talking about somewhere in the region of 30 Million C-Bills worth of kit there though and a Mercenary unit (Even Wolf's Dragoons) is a business, they'd not last long even with their reputation if that was the sort of thing they made a habit of doing. It's possible however also unlikely that a couple of ex-Dragoons were able to take their mechs with them by accruing enough money somehow to purchase them, the problems with this as an explanation though is that it's a huge chunk of money and what's the probability that the Dragoons would be happy to sell on such pretty unique kit?
Oh, not likely at all, but in the fluff there are occasional mentions of equipment that a bigger/stronger/richer force wouldn't bother fixing, at least when they could find other supply to replace them. It's not completely unreasonable to think that the Dragoons would recover the mechs, and then decide not to fix them, but someone else might be interested. I also don't think it's the most common possible solution, just that it's as conceivable as ninja looting on one of the most heavily defended worlds in the inner sphere in the middle of a battle.
If the Mercs that helped defeat the Dragoons on Hesperus had a good salvage clause in their contract and IIRC they are big name units themselves- that seems a very plausible recovery.
Same with the DCMS - after the 4th Succession War IIRC units went mercenary so if they had picked up the vast quantities of mechs that had been lost on Misery - seems plausible?
I kind go with that a good tech should be able to make actuators etc work on a similar weight of Mech - there used to be Frankenstein Mech's that worked - one of things that I thought they might do with the BattleTech computer game was have glitches and qualities for Mechs - Even the Black Widow Company had these and their Tech support is very good.
The end of the 4th Succession war lead to Takashi Kurita issuing his "Death to Mercenaries" order which remained in place until after Wolf's Dragoons and the Kell Hounds aided the Combine in the defence of Luthien though so anyone from the Combine taking that route would do so largely knowing that they'll never be able to return home and there's a good chance that their friends and families are likely to get punished by the ISF for what would probably be perceived as their betrayal. I don't think many DCMS units are going to end up going Mercenary in the aftermath of that (The Bushido culture as portrayed largely precludes many units or individuals taking that route anyway) and the battle of Misery involved some of the newest and best units in the Draconis Combine and IIRC whilst some of the Ryuken left to become mercenaries they did so by joining Wolf's Dragoons.
If the Mercs that helped defeat the Dragoons on Hesperus had a good salvage clause in their contract and IIRC they are big name units themselves- that seems a very plausible recovery.
It's stretching it a bit IMO to say that it would be very plausible in a roughly company sized unit. Realistically even assuming that you've got full salvage rights, in my experience it's going to be a pretty good day if half the enemy mechs you take out are going to be economically worth repairing. For mechs without CASE anything that's lost to an ammo explosion is scrap and the likelihood is that anything that's been destroyed by CT destruction is going to be broken up for parts. It's always possible that a lucky pilot might score a triple-Engine or Cockpit Critical and take out an otherwise intact mech or a double-Gyro and the mech is abandoned or surrendered, but is it very plausible that these lucky hits just so happen to be against these particular rare mechs?
It's not impossible that over the course of an extended engagement with multiple contacts like at Hesperus you might encounter and destroy enough Imps and Shoguns to piece together a working example of each, but at the risk of repetition, they're pretty uncommon mechs even among Dragoon units so you're not that likely to be encountering them in significant numbers to begin with, the probability though is that if you don't have the luxury of salvaging two or three of each you'll be reliant on the Dragoons being willing and able to sell you the parts you need to put them back in action again. There's also the issue there that you're setting the bar of the backstory of your unit pretty high, suggesting that they've won multiple combats against one of the Inner Sphere's premiere mercenary outfits.
When all's said and done though if you're happy with it as an explanation, go for it. It doesn't work particularly well for me personally, but that shouldn't matter. There's nothing particularly wrong with not even using a head-canon explanation and just putting down whatever you like the look or feel of on the board.
just that it's as conceivable as ninja looting on one of the most heavily defended worlds in the inner sphere in the middle of a battle
To be fair, the Dragoons did make a number of failed attacks during the Hesperus campaign and on Misery too (And no doubt suffered local defeats elsewhere as well at various stages during their history) so it's entirely probable at some point that they had to fall back leaving some kit behind rather than it being a case of calling in the recovery vehicles on the battlefield to attempt to salvage under enemy fire.
I'd still personally be inclined towards saying that whilst it's definitely not impossible, it's very unlikely and highly implausible though YMMV.
For the Shogun/Imp, could always go with someone managed to steal or otherwise duplicate the design plans and churn a couple out for sale before they were forcibly shut down (or maybe still selling them on the black market).
Mmmpi wrote: Option c. You really helped them out, maybe passed on some info that really made a job easier, or helped out their families when they were in a bind. As thanks, they let you buy a couple of their more smashed up mechs. Similar to Barber's Mauraders II.
Only if you insist. It happens in some of the novels granted, but its just fiat. Use fiat if you must, but ignore it if you can.
This is the same answer as Join Wolfs Dragoons. You are talking about affiliated membership right here However mech givaways are rare, rare mech givaways more so.
Reviewing the consequences t also means you have heavy backup and aren't really a lone mechwarrior out on your own, its a Mary Sue of a backstory. "Knew Jaime Wolf, he showered me with mechs", I think we can do better than that.
Compared to "Be on one single planet on the exact day and time to salvage a specific rare mech"? I believe you doth protest too much.
Easy to do. Post battlefield looting is a common event in history. If there is a pressed advance or retreat it might not be possible to collect the salvage before someone beats you to it. Hesperus was a desperate battle fought over a large geographic area, when a fight moves on scavengers can move it and grab stuff.
Also the player chooses they want an Imp and a Shogun in the backstory, so the scenario must unfold along those lines; the battlefield wreckage happens to include a Shogun and an Imp, so tom make that even remotely likely Zeta battalion was fighting there, and were hard pressed so the battlefield was not consolidated by either side. This is also rare as assault mechs are prime salvage, however there is a larger picture here of the struggle for Defiance Industries compounds that makes the sacrifices and the need to press on feasible. The scavengers were not looking for specific mechs, had no 'list' just whatever they could find. For the findings to include those mechs Dragoon salvage is pretty much the only way you will get them. It is not unreasonable for a character to choose the mechs in their backstory, and rare mechs require a reasonable explanation.
Also you need not be there 'on the day' colossal engagement are not brief affairs, the Lyran Commonwealth had time to call in reinforcements, this rings the dinner bell for battlefield scavvies and primes the criminal underworld for a payday. Furthermore if you fight in more desperate terrain mechs can be lost and salvaged later. Wolf's Dragoons are known for using bad terrain to their advantage, mostly because they are not only skilled but willing to take losses for sttrategic objective. Natasha Kerensky crossed an 'impassible' swamp to take out Duncan Marik's stronghold. We dont know why the swamp was deemed impassible or how many mechs were lost crossing it. Scavvies might have been hunting for and digging up salvage mechs months or years later.
Much of the battle of Hesperus was fought over a major river. Might a damaged mech be lost underwater? Scavangers might dig up an Imp and a Shogun from a riverbed long after the battle is done.
The player characters need not the the original looters, but black market customers of theirs. Though to get two iconic Dragoon mechs likely means they were close to the source, the area was flooded with mercenaries, and not all salvage would be accounted for. Maybe a merc company found a fair bit of salvage which they were not contracted to be allowed to keep. Smuggled it onto their own dropships, this makes the Shogun and Imp more plausible, as part of a much larger haul of battlefield loot taken outside of employment terms. Common mech designs can be explained away, a salvaged Wolverine or Awesome could be passed off as one of their own, a Shogun or Imp are hot property and if caught with it the mercs might lose their rep with the Lyrans, so sell them off fast.
Thanks for the ideas guys, I am probably going to go with the "shot down Dropship" one, it sounds really fun!
Progress on the armoured train is coming along nicely, it now has an engine plus 3 carriages under construction, 2 gun carriages (each with 2 turrets containing autocannons/lasers/PPC's) and a Cruise Missile/LRM car. I also have a couple of Artillery cars (thumper and Arrow) and some Infantry cars planned as well as some pursuit cars (flatbeds with ramps at either side capable of carrying and quickly deploying light to heavy combat vehicles) and a repair car for fixing Mechs and vehicles, plus a possible Railline Repair car.
Depending on the timeline and the group building/operating the train, you could also have scratch built turrets, made from the top half of battlemechs. Basically salvage missing legs, with the torso rotating on the roof.
PGI wrote:As many of you know for more than a year Piranha has been a defendant in a lawsuit filed by Harmony Gold. Very recently that lawsuit has been resolved.. The details on the resolution of the lawsuit are confidential and I am limited to this agreed upon language between HG and PGI.
Harmony Gold and Piranha Games are delighted to announce that they have ended their dispute. Piranha Games will continue to use the “classic” BattleTech designs and Harmony Gold and Piranha Games look forward to continuing to serve their respective fans and customers.
Many of you will have follow up questions but I must abstain from getting into a conversation on the matter.
At Piranha Games we thank you for your support during the process.
Russ
Someone else found a docket agreement which would have the case fully dismissed with prejudice, leaving all legal costs to those who called for them.
That should mean that Catalyst is off the hook for using the new redesigns of the classic 'Mechs like the Warhammer, Marauder, Phoenix Hawk, etc.
Not necessarily, Catalyst are NOT part of the lawsuit defence. So summary judgement is still possible. Harmony Gold will press for tight terms that Catalyst cannot afford. Catalyst has always been economically short sighted, hence rehashing old second rate mechs for the new boxset rather than doing what new companies do and modernising the tooling. Everything is on th cheap, including legal representation and that can hurt long term.
We also do not know the terms Harebrained settled for.
I would love to see those classic designs continue into new properties, but I will not want false hopes.
Orlanth wrote: Not necessarily, Catalyst are NOT part of the lawsuit defence. So summary judgement is still possible. Harmony Gold will press for tight terms that Catalyst cannot afford. Catalyst has always been economically short sighted, hence rehashing old second rate mechs for the new boxset rather than doing what new companies do and modernising the tooling. Everything is on th cheap, including legal representation and that can hurt long term.
We also do not know the terms Harebrained settled for.
I would love to see those classic designs continue into new properties, but I will not want false hopes.
The company that owns CGL, InMediaRes Productions, LLC (IMR), is one of the defendants, which is why they were included in the lawsuit.
This docket entry indicates that it will be for all defendants, including the ones in default. IMR is in default in this case due to a lack of response that both HBS and PGI gave. If it clears the Judge, then IMR would be included.
You are correct that we don't know the terms Harebrained settled for, but as this part of the board is for the miniatures, what HBS and PGI get involved in are only side-related to what CGL does unless it directly affects them (as that docket linked above would if cleared). Concern for HBS and PGI should be filed under the Computer Games part of the board.
Now, part of the miniature concern is that there are people who want to take some of the "Unseen" redesigns that both PGI and HBS have provided and make models from them. There have been pictures of some of the early models and they look fantastic. So far they have been on hold from release (and possibly even production), partly (assumed) because of this lawsuit. CGL has been cagey about responding on the Battletech forum about any information regarding this.
But it should make things easier to expand on the new boxes they are planning to release later this year, and that makes me giddy. That Warhammer looked awesome, and the Thunderbolt in the new box has me itchy.
This is as good a legal win as the Battletech community could get. With the addition of CGL and IMR by PGI in the settlement, it makes me believe the the Battletech side was dictating the settlement to HG, not the other way around. If you were losing that argument, why would you include others? Only if you were getting what you were after would you want to add in other parties.
We will never have the original Unseen in Battletech again. They have been removed from the universe. Retconned that look from the universe.
The Newseen redesign is what "was always there" until Project Phoenix redesigned them in the 3060s.
In the Battletech universe the Officer's Pod Marauder never existed now. That was not part of this lawsuit, and CGL put the nail in that coffin with the redesign. But that's okay, because the redesigns look way better than the Unseen did. Hell a lot of the Reseen look better than the originals, but nostalgia is strong.
master of ordinance wrote: About time HG got the boot from Battletech. I am glad to see the classic designs returning, they have been sorely missed.
Don't expect to see the classic designs, but they can actually get a lot closer than they have in decades.
I prefer the current redesigns, Marauder excepted. The most important thing is we can now have them.
I miss Stingers, not good mechs by any stretch, but they were the workhorse mech of the Inner Sphere. They have been entirely absent for so long while you weren't supposed to get onto a 21st century battlefield without tripping over one.
I hope Piranha games make a nice Stinger and Phoenix Hawk sculpt, i.e nothing like the abominations from MWA.
master of ordinance wrote: About time HG got the boot from Battletech. I am glad to see the classic designs returning, they have been sorely missed.
Don't expect to see the classic designs, but they can actually get a lot closer than they have in decades.
I prefer the current redesigns, Marauder excepted. The most important thing is we can now have them.
I miss Stingers, not good mechs by any stretch, but they were the workhorse mech of the Inner Sphere. They have been entirely absent for so long while you weren't supposed to get onto a 21st century battlefield without tripping over one.
I hope Piranha games make a nice Stinger and Phoenix Hawk sculpt, i.e nothing like the abominations from MWA.
I enjoy Piranha Game's work on redesigning the Unseen to keep them reasonably close to the original work, but also putting enough "realism" and even a little blockiness to the design to still make it feel original and keeping with the style of the original FASA work.
Yeah, Stingers were quite common. I think only the Archer really competed for numbers. It's firepower isn't that impressive, but great for a scout mech that might have to engage infantry.
Yeah, Stingers were quite common. I think only the Archer really competed for numbers. It's firepower isn't that impressive, but great for a scout mech that might have to engage infantry.
You mean the Locust. The Archer is a 70 ton heavy, ostensibly a missile support mech, but actually its a near perfect all rounder, and unlike Locusts and Stingers they are not ubiquitous. UrbanMechs were also massed produced, but only two factions went in for them in any numbers, but they would deploy them in waves. Funnily enough the Wasp was much rarer.
The Locust had a role, its a scout, the Stinger also had a role, its a placeholder. In the canon company books Stingers were in every one, even the assault companies like Rolling Thunder, it means something readily available to pilot after you had to eject from your real mech until we can find a new proper mech.
At one part of the timeline Stingers account for 1:6 of known mechs in the Inner Sphere, and Locusts 1:18. Though these were FASA statistics, and FASA never really thought through the numbers in their games.
I've always seen stingers and wasps as what would be a trooper mech, if you could do that with 20 tons. Fast, but not that fast, decent armor (for 20 tons), and a bit of extra mobility with the jumpjets.
Orlanth wrote: You mean the Locust. The Archer is a 70 ton heavy, ostensibly a missile support mech, but actually its a near perfect all rounder, and unlike Locusts and Stingers they are not ubiquitous. UrbanMechs were also massed produced, but only two factions went in for them in any numbers, but they would deploy them in waves. Funnily enough the Wasp was much rarer.
As far as I know they very much are...
More than 100,000 Archers were produced between its introduction and the start of the First Succession War, with tens of thousands of its variant models produced over the centuries. Though many were destroyed or dismantled for spare parts, they remained a common sight in the Great House armies, with six different factories producing new Archers throughout the Succession Wars
As to the Wasp, what I knew was:
The modern WSP-1A Wasp began production in 2471. Centuries later, it is still considered a valued asset for recon work and is one of the most numerous 'Mech in existence
Yeah, Stingers were quite common. I think only the Archer really competed for numbers. It's firepower isn't that impressive, but great for a scout mech that might have to engage infantry.
You mean the Locust. The Archer is a 70 ton heavy, ostensibly a missile support mech, but actually its a near perfect all rounder, and unlike Locusts and Stingers they are not ubiquitous. UrbanMechs were also massed produced, but only two factions went in for them in any numbers, but they would deploy them in waves. Funnily enough the Wasp was much rarer.
The Locust had a role, its a scout, the Stinger also had a role, its a placeholder. In the canon company books Stingers were in every one, even the assault companies like Rolling Thunder, it means something readily available to pilot after you had to eject from your real mech until we can find a new proper mech.
At one part of the timeline Stingers account for 1:6 of known mechs in the Inner Sphere, and Locusts 1:18. Though these were FASA statistics, and FASA never really thought through the numbers in their games.
No, I meant the Archer. The Archer was the most produced and avilable Heavy Mech. That isn't to state that the Locust and the Wasp weren't heavily mass produced, because they were, I just remembered that the Archer was so mass produced.
The Stinger is such a light mech was never meant to be a placeholder, it's just that they were so common and readily available that it was sometimes shoved in to it. A med laser and 2 MG are nothing and easily overpowered by the Medium Mechs that can match its movement profile, and piss in the wind compared to what a Panther can do.
I think I honestly prefer the Project Phoenix versions of the Phoenix Hawk and Crusader, compared to anything that's come since. PP Archer ain't bad either.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think I honestly prefer the Project Phoenix versions of the Phoenix Hawk and Crusader, compared to anything that's come since. PP Archer ain't bad either.
I must admit that out of those three, the Archer is the one I don't really mind. I don't quite like neither the PHawk nor the Crusader.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think I honestly prefer the Project Phoenix versions of the Phoenix Hawk and Crusader, compared to anything that's come since. PP Archer ain't bad either.
I wasn't a fan of the PP Crusader Hands and head, but liked the rest of it. The Archer was good. The Thunderbolt was fantastic, also the mini was a pain to assemble. The Marauder II may have been the best of them.
I picked up the Project Phoenix Warhammer, Warhammer IIC and Phoenix Hawk.
The PH is decent and whilst I didn't appreciate it when I bought it, I love the IIC now - it's going to fit into my Jade Falcon Omega Galaxy nicely.
The Warhammer got bought because of my Warhammer nostalgia, but it's hideous and a pain in the bum to build. That thing is never going to see a tabletop, ever.
Mattlov wrote: Yeah, it suffers badly from "poseablility." Except it isn't that poseable, it's just a metric crap ton of pieces. Same with the Thunderbolt.
I'd really love the Warhammer IIC mini if it was 20% shorter.
And addendum to my previous post. The Marauder IIC is the best of Project Phoenix. Can't believe I forgot that one.
The height of the Warhammer IIC is what put me off originally, but now that I've got some MWO derived models, it looks really good next to my Summoner and Hellbringer (they're even the same height as the couple of plastic ones from that boxed set). Ditched the ATMs that it came with and stuck the SRM6 from the PP Warhammer on it to make a good, old fashioned IIC (none of this Warhammer IIC 56 business for me, I'm sticking with the O.G.).
Mattlov wrote: I wasn't a fan of the PP Crusader Hands and head, but liked the rest of it. The Archer was good. The Thunderbolt was fantastic, also the mini was a pain to assemble. The Marauder II may have been the best of them.
Actually, yes, the Thunderbolt is another really good one. Bitch of a thing to build (not as much as the Marauder standing on one leg!).
Mattlov wrote: I wasn't a fan of the PP Crusader Hands and head, but liked the rest of it. The Archer was good. The Thunderbolt was fantastic, also the mini was a pain to assemble. The Marauder II may have been the best of them.
Actually, yes, the Thunderbolt is another really good one. Bitch of a thing to build (not as much as the Marauder standing on one leg!).
I had to pin, like, everything on the one metal nuT-bolt that I got Z_Z
Had to pull up the PPTRO to remind myself what these redesigned mechs even look like - and ugh, about the only one I liked was the Battlemaster (and Locust). I’d definitely take the originals on all the others. Nothing beats the original Warhammer, for me.
Though the recent redesigns I’ve been seeing around look much better - are those MWO or Catalyst versions? I seem to recall the new starter is going to have a bunch or the redesigned unseen?
Stormonu wrote: Though the recent redesigns I’ve been seeing around look much better - are those MWO or Catalyst versions? I seem to recall the new starter is going to have a bunch or the redesigned unseen?
The Battletech Beginner Box will have redesigned Griffin and Wolverine.
The BattleTech: A Game of Armored Combat box will have redesigned Awesome, BattleMaster, Catapult, Commando, Locust, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt, and Wolverine.
How do those scale to the old Ral Partha mechs? Well, maybe I shouldn't say old. I hadn't placed an original 85 Marauder next to the what, an 88 re sculpture? since the early 90's. Love the new locusts. They are obviously way larger but that's not an issue for me. Must get some of those locusts.
Charistoph wrote: I can't remember if they are modified prints of PGI's work or just very good recreations.
Either way, I'm loving them. Here's to hoping my income upticks to buy both sets.
PGI and CGL have different artists for their Nuseens.
I may be wrong, but I think that the PGI stuff predates the Battletech artwork (I was a pre-order person for MWO, so that's going back a few years).
They obviously share some stylistic cues, but that's probably due to what's fashionable in the world of mech design in the 21st century. I was initially a bit disappointed when I found out that CGL weren't just going to license the MWO designs, as they're so good; but having seen the results, I actually prefer CGL's designs - especially the Awesome, Shadowhawk and Battlemaster.
Stormonu wrote: Though the recent redesigns I’ve been seeing around look much better - are those MWO or Catalyst versions? I seem to recall the new starter is going to have a bunch or the redesigned unseen?
The Battletech Beginner Box will have redesigned Griffin and Wolverine.
The BattleTech: A Game of Armored Combat box will have redesigned Awesome, BattleMaster, Catapult, Commando, Locust, Shadow Hawk, Thunderbolt, and Wolverine.
Yeah, at first I was worried about my long-time-favorite Awesome getting a new look, especially since it was never Unseen and thus didn't require it. Then I thought about how much the look of the Corvette has changed over 65 years, and how much the Battletech universe is a matter of salvage what you can to repair what you have. Now I'm okay with it.
A). They do a new series of Lance Packs.
B). They don't complain duplicate 'Mechs from the starter boxes.
Sort of. There will be no release of these box set 'Mechs outside of the box set. Could you get lance packs later down the line? Maybe. But the ones in the box will only ever be available in the box if Catalyst does what they want to.
Ok, so, some time ago (like, a month :p), I got a cheap fdm 3d printer to have my very own Star Trek replicator ^_^. Or to start fiddling around with all the printing stuff at home thing, one or the other. Anyways, the fdm printers are really great to do stuff like terrain, inserts for boardgames, actual stuff that works and all that, but the definition leaves a bit to be desired for miniatures. But I though that hell, printing a mini costs peanuts, so might as well try to do minis with it!
So I did.
The first test was a TBolt, because why the hell not:
(There it is, after a whole lot of cleaning up). Not bad, to be honest, not bad at all. I used the "Extra detail" settings from the printer, and the results were encouraging.
Not really perfect, though, to be honest:
It is an extreme closeup, and it looks much better in person, but there certainly is a lot of banding.
Then I tried something bigger:
Those were done at the "Medium Quality" settings, and even though with all that black it doesn't show much, when primed, well...
It is kinda weird. But probably good enough for scenery.
Then I tried to do something bigger, and I made a 30k Rhino:
Which I believe looks pretty fething cool, if I say so myself.
After that, I started fiddling around with the advanced settings (layer height, retraction, heat, travel speeds... theres a lot of those ^^), and to test it I made a goblin. A tiny, tiny goblin:
Seriously, it's tiny:
The extreme closeup shows a lot of defects that I should clean, but 1) I didn't even notice them with the naked eye, and 2) look at those tiny bands! That's leagues better!
After painting it with the crappy, dried paints and the broken brush I had where I was, the bands were mostly not there:
So of course, the next step would be something bigger and much cooler. Like a Wolverine:
The only postprocessing I did to that one was removing the supports. After a pass with blue primer, it looked like this:
And after a couple passes of washes and drybrushes, it looks like this:
Once the fine sandpaper I ordered arrives, I'll probably be able to get the next ones much cleaner, but honestly... this is very encouraging
It is clearly a tad too big as-is, though ^^. But look at the detail level when compared with other mechs:
OK, this seems like one of those sort of questions that I should know the answer too but it's had me scratching my brain over recent days. Can anyone give a reasonable general ballpark figure for the ratio of Trueborn to Freeborn Clan Mechwarriors?
I know that in part the answer would be "Depends on the time period and which Clan and what sort of unit" since for example the Falcons and Wolves were desperately short of personnel following the Refusal War so their make-up in 3058 is likely to be different from what it was when they crossed the Periphery in 3050, but what I'm after is a broad general feel for roughly what the percentages would be like across the Clans as a whole around the mid-late '50s. I'm thinking that it'd probably be somewhere greater than 50/50 with Freeborn Mechwarriors generally having a tougher time due to the prejudices against them, so somewhere between 75/25 or 66.6/33.3 overall, with numbers of Freeborns being noticably higher in second line and Garrison Clusters and lower in first line units. Does that sound reasonable?
Logically speaking, it should be on the ballpark of 90/10 or more most of the time, simply because warrior créches were being taught how to fight from the crib, and being "made" on exowombs allows to just increase production as you see ft.
Albertorius wrote: simply because warrior créches were being taught how to fight from the crib, and being "made" on exowombs allows to just increase production as you see ft.
Unless I've missed something in my readings of the fluff Trueborns are still "Born" as babies and have to grow naturally, so it only really allows you to increase production with about a 15-20 year lead time. If your Clan experiences sudden heavy losses, such as the Falcons and Wolves did in 3057 or some other Clans did at Tukkayid, you have to turn to other sources which basically means promising Freeborn teenagers and young adults or rushing captured Bondsmen through their Trials of Position, since IIRC even as a Trueborn if you wash-out during Warrior training you don't get a second chance, ignoring the special case of Aidan Pryde. Unless you dramatically lower training standards for the Trueborn Sibkos, but even then there's a good chance it'll still take quite a few years to catch up.
10% Freeborn seems reasonable for First line units, it seems a bit low for an overall average to me though and I'd expect a higher ratio in Garrison units.
Albertorius wrote: simply because warrior créches were being taught how to fight from the crib, and being "made" on exowombs allows to just increase production as you see ft.
Unless I've missed something in my readings of the fluff Trueborns are still "Born" as babies and have to grow naturally, so it only really allows you to increase production with about a 15-20 year lead time. If your Clan experiences sudden heavy losses, such as the Falcons and Wolves did in 3057 or some other Clans did at Tukkayid, you have to turn to other sources which basically means promising Freeborn teenagers and young adults or rushing captured Bondsmen through their Trials of Position, since IIRC even as a Trueborn if you wash-out during Warrior training you don't get a second chance, ignoring the special case of Aidan Pryde. Unless you dramatically lower training standards for the Trueborn Sibkos, but even then there's a good chance it'll still take quite a few years to catch up.
10% Freeborn seems reasonable for First line units, it seems a bit low for an overall average to me though and I'd expect a higher ratio in Garrison units.
That's why I said "most of the time", yes. That said, even suffering heavy losses, clan trueborns enter combat at a quite early age, IIRC. Plus, they should still have a large number of trueborns in second line units and the like, and even in rejects.
OTOH, the clans being the clans, if they have to choose between taking in freeborns and doing a second trial for trueborn washouts, I'm pretty sure they'll go for the trueborns most of the time.
The Falcon Guard books made it pretty clear that if you fail your Trial of Position, that's it, there's no second chance. Also, whilst the Clans do favour youth, there's still a bit of a limit. Even though I mentioned 15-20 years, I can't imagine them sending 15 year olds into combat even with their screening and training. Realistically, I would have thought 17 would be the lower limit, even if it'd be what we consider child-soldiers these days.
simonr1978 wrote: The Falcon Guard books made it pretty clear that if you fail your Trial of Position, that's it, there's no second chance. Also, whilst the Clans do favour youth, there's still a bit of a limit. Even though I mentioned 15-20 years, I can't imagine them sending 15 year olds into combat even with their screening and training. Realistically, I would have thought 17 would be the lower limit, even if it'd be what we consider child-soldiers these days.
I'm pretty sure that when faced with the kind of casualties that would make them look towards freeborns, that policy would be turned pretty fast, or they would be treated just like freeborns for induction. Remember that the percentage of trained freeborns will probably be nelligible, and training to be a mechwarrior takes years, so if you need to bolster your ranks right now, well... you might not have much of a choice.
As to age, well... I wouldn't really rule out them sending children. It is a time-honored tradition in warfare, after all.
Actually, it probably varies a lot between Clans. From the Jade Falcon books, they're pretty rough on their freeborns, but you get a small handful serving in frontline units and slightly more in second-line and provisional garrison clusters. The Smoke Jaguars were on the far end of the extreme though with little to no freeborns. On the other end of the spectrum, Clan Wolf managed to scrape up enough warriors for 5 regiments to create Wolf's Dragoons. Prior to Tukayyid, the Diamond Sharks staffed their second-line units with freeborns and after the sacrifice of a cluster during that campaign, their policy changed to allow freeborns into front-line units. I suspect freeborns would also fill out a lot more of the conventional vehicle crews as well. I'd guess the actual ratio of trueborn to freeborn is closer to 60/40 with adjustments depending on the particulars of the Clan and what type of unit it is. A more progressive clan will probably have more freeborns.
At least Clan Ghost Bear recycles failed warriors where those that fail their first trial get the opportunity to retry in a second branch. Their senior Khan was an aerospace pilot that initially failed his mechwarrior trial. In their case, I suspect they have a higher ratio of trueborns, though by the time they became the Rasalhague Dominion, I suspect the ratio is probably closer to 50/50.
I think Clan Diamond Shark also allows their older warriors to retire to other castes, but leaves the option open to recall them back to service as a reserve to staff second-line/garrison units.
simonr1978 wrote: The Falcon Guard books made it pretty clear that if you fail your Trial of Position, that's it, there's no second chance. Also, whilst the Clans do favour youth, there's still a bit of a limit. Even though I mentioned 15-20 years, I can't imagine them sending 15 year olds into combat even with their screening and training. Realistically, I would have thought 17 would be the lower limit, even if it'd be what we consider child-soldiers these days.
A Clan warrior can face his Trial of Position as young as 16, but most occur at the age of 18. Most Clanners are "combat ready" and capable of using a 'Mech in combat at Inner Sphere regular (Gunnery 4 Piloting 5) by age 14-ish.
Clan training is BRUTAL. There's a reason sometimes not even a single member of the sibko makes it to the Trial. A Clan like the Steel Vipers rarely sends more than 1 out of 100. A "gentle" Clan might send as many as 5. Out of 100.
As for freeborns, as you said, depends on the Clan. Many Clans that are fine with freeborns populate their second-line Clusters with them. In any Clan other than the Hell's Horses, you can bet a vehicle pilot is probably freeborn. Unarmored infantry, like a base MP? Freeborn. In a Clan that is okay with freeborns, I would expect a front line Cluster to contain no more than 5% freeborns. A second line Cluster might be as much as 1/3rd of them. But I doubt in ANY Clan there will be as many freeborns as trueborn in any unit other than something seen as "unworthy" of a trueborn.
Pretty much, the Warden clans like Clan Wolf trends to be a higher ratio (Wolf's Dragoons were all Freeborn but Natasha), while Crusaders trend lower (Smoke Jaguars never let Freeborns fight, but Horse was allowed in the Falcon Guard). There are some exceptions, of course.
Hell's Horses, as mentioned, have Mechwarriors who fail their first Trial, go through Vehicle Piloting Trials next. They are somewhat of an oddity in this. I remember another clan allowing a second Trial for Trueborns and success their would put them in the second line much like many of the Crusaders would put dezgra, solhama, or other Freeborn personnel.
Albertorius wrote: Ok, so, some time ago (like, a month :p), I got a cheap fdm 3d printer to have my very own Star Trek replicator ^_^. Or to start fiddling around with all the printing stuff at home thing, one or the other. Anyways, the fdm printers are really great to do stuff like terrain, inserts for boardgames, actual stuff that works and all that, but the definition leaves a bit to be desired for miniatures. But I though that hell, printing a mini costs peanuts, so might as well try to do minis with it!
So I did.
The first test was a TBolt, because why the hell not:
It is OK to make 3d printed Mechwarrior Online miniatures because Piranha Games and Catalyst Gaming Labs have greenlit for personal use. Which is very bro of them. I am considering making a set in MWA scale. You could even show those images on the company Battletech forums. What you cant do its take a scan of Iron Wind Metals products, though you have not done that.
Not sure about the Rhino though,is it an original digisculpt? Cool Rhino/not-Rhino and all, but just because its big bad Gee-dub, doesnt mean they dont have rights.
It is an original sculpt, yeah, but not by me (it's up on Thingiverse): three main pieces and 4 smoke stacks, and it prints very well
As to rights, well, as you say it's not a copy but an original on the same style, but the EU is on top of that right now, so probably we'll have some new legislation soonish.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Crusader melon-fether!!!!
It's supposed to look that way, actually ^_^ (Remember, the Unseen Crusader is actually the Full Armored VF-1, and the armor goes on top of the battloid)
Okay so ordered basically 1 of every lance pack local store has so have 20 mechs coming on my way. Packs are fire, pursuit, recon, striker and support.
Was thinking of splitting them in 2 with lyran and draconis inner sphere factions(good for giving also good excuse to field either against clans).
Not that up to date on fluff so are there any mechs on above lances that are more common on one of the two? Hopefully none are "never ever using that" level but if one of the two is more likely to use some of the mechs put them for that and work rest from there for roughly even split.
The weird one is the Shogun. It doesn't really belong in either. Basically, the Lyrans have more firepower, but the Combine has more speed and maneuverability.
The weird one is the Shogun. It doesn't really belong in either. Basically, the Lyrans have more firepower, but the Combine has more speed and maneuverability.
Yeah learned later of the shogun issue. That IS bit of a bummer. Of course I could keep that on side 'till I would get the proper force but...
If I use it def would go to Draconis. With that name how can I NOT put it to Japanese themed Draconis
I had made fairly similar list except Dervish and Vindicator were on Lyrans. Also unless wiki is off assasin isn't on mechs I will be getting.
Okay plans changed. Apart from mentioned mechs got hold of this big pile. Anybody have good website for identifying minis?-) some have codes and can recognize 3 atlas and 3 catapults at least. Oh and 2 riflemen as well. Axeman as well
With this will be doing more factions including black dragoons who will get shogun.
Now to paint these. After identifying and sorting things a bit.
51 Blackjack (P), 52 Crusader (P), 53 Griffin (P), 54 Ostroc 55 And just about half in shot is what looks like a plastic Hunchback
There's one that I'm not 100% certain on which I think is an Unseen Ostscout, but the rest I'm very certain of. I only see 2 Catapults though, I'm guessing you mis-identified the Stalker (21) as a third Cat? Similarly, there's no Axman there, I guess you were referring to the Hatchetman (41). You have the parts at least of four Riflemen including two complete examples, the one that's just the legs and body section will need some work though.
Edit: No, that one is an Ostroc. I always get my Ost- mechs mixed up!
Looks like you have a mix of some of the old metals and some Citytech/Plastech/3rd Edition Boxed Set soft plastic mechs there, which accounts for some of the differences in the sculpts. I've used (P) to indicate those which I think are plastics based on their appearances here, but obviously without actually getting to pick them up in person it's a bit more difficult to tell. The 3rd Edition box set plastics weren't bad sculpts IIRC and fairly indistinguishable from the metals on the tabletop, the Citytech and Plastech mechs were for the most part noticeably inferior IMO.
Note that I've tried to list them roughly in the rows as they appear in the picture there, I did try to format my post to make it a bit clearer but Dakka defaulted it back to standard formatting. If you'd like any clarification please feel free to ask, hopefully the picture will help.
Overall, a pretty decent haul there IMO with quite a few of the old Unseens.
Wow didn't expect anybody to go through bother of writing down everything(which is why they are in bit of a messy order). Thanks! After stripping paint will be marking them down with the codenames(handy idea that) again.
Some are metals, some are plastics. Some of them yeah quite bad quality :-/ Not sure did I overpay though there's hefty amount of metal versions so shouldn't be too bad. Not that many really bad ones though. They go for my 2nd line of models though.
Quite possible I misidentified stalker as catapult. I'm not high inner sphere guru and I haven't yet spent much time with these(yesterday was 40k game night so that took some time).
Oh and the riflemen without arms in pic btw DOES have both arms but they are separated so need gluing up. One IS missing one arm though so need to figure some way to recreate it.
Oh and holy you even put numbers on the photo. Huge thanks!
Mmmpi wrote: Just leave it without the arm, and model it as battle damaged.
I'd either do this, or use it as a chance to convert it into either an RFL-3C (Twin AC-10 version) or stick a couple of big missile pods on the side for a fairly decent Longbow proxy.
As an aside, the Rifleman that's in the picture completely missing its arms is also looks to be missing its head section and radar antenae, so unless that's also lose with the arms you might have to model or convert an alternative.
BTW speaking of riflemen what TRO stats come from? I have 3050 upgraded and no sign. Is it because it's unseen? Do I need to buy the original 3050 just for sake of the unseen mechs?
The RFL-3N Rifleman was in the original TRO3025, however like all the other Unseens it was dropped in the revised edition. AFAIK I don't think any were in the original TRO3050, but the upgraded versions were in the relevant record sheets books
If you want a free and legal shortcut you could download Megamek and Meklab and you can use them to get all the relevant information you'd need to fill out the record sheets for any mech or combat vehicle.
simonr1978 wrote: AFAIK I don't think any were in the original TRO3050, but the upgraded versions were in the relevant record sheets books
Early printings of TRO:3050 did have the unseen. The unseen weren't dropped until 1996 and TRO:3050 was first released in 1990. The RFL-5D was featured in TRO:3050 and featured upgraded weapons, an XL engine and double heat-sinks.
tneva82 wrote: BTW speaking of riflemen what TRO stats come from? I have 3050 upgraded and no sign. Is it because it's unseen? Do I need to buy the original 3050 just for sake of the unseen mechs?
You never have to buy a TRO. TROs are purely background books.
The actual gamestats would be in a Record Sheets product.
And get Solaris Skunk Werks. It is a free and comprehensive 'Mech building program and people have made all the files for the canon 'Mechs.
Yeah, if you only want stats, the TROs are kind of redundant.
I love them though. Years ago, they were an addiction. I must admit that I feel out of love with them with time, as the newer ones kept adding overly optimized mechs and/or too much new tech (and there are scads of new tech).
Albertorius wrote: Yeah, if you only want stats, the TROs are kind of redundant.
I love them though. Years ago, they were an addiction. I must admit that I feel out of love with them with time, as the newer ones kept adding overly optimized mechs and/or too much new tech (and there are scads of new tech).
But TROs are the only truly consistent sellers for Battletech books. Catalyst puts them out, they sell. They're the primary money maker for Battletech. That's why there are too many of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, MegaMek Lab is a better source for 'Mechs than SSW. SSW has not been updated in a long time, and some of the calculations are not longer accurate for the most up to date rules.
Albertorius wrote: Yeah, if you only want stats, the TROs are kind of redundant.
I love them though. Years ago, they were an addiction. I must admit that I feel out of love with them with time, as the newer ones kept adding overly optimized mechs and/or too much new tech (and there are scads of new tech).
But TROs are the only truly consistent sellers for Battletech books. Catalyst puts them out, they sell. They're the primary money maker for Battletech. That's why there are too many of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, MegaMek Lab is a better source for 'Mechs than SSW. SSW has not been updated in a long time, and some of the calculations are not longer accurate for the most up to date rules.
I tend to use MekHQ as a campaign log and inventory, most of the time. It is an impressive program.
Well got first game of battletech in years. Bit of rusty so we had plenty of rule checking up especially when we got close enough for physical attacks.
Atlas, axeman and flea paired off against awesome, catapult and panther. Not surprisingly atlas took at the start bulk of fire and it's right side in particular got serious damage and indeed on turn 2 it's autocannon was disabled by critical hit. Awesome meanwhile suffered much less damage in the beginning. However awesome was firing pretty recklessly especially on turn 2 which basically shut him down for turn 3 due to heat unable to do much except to try to cool down. He could not do much else with 20 heat remaining.
It was looking fairly grim but catapult's missiles managed to cause yet another critical to the atlast which blew out AC ammunition. Scratch one mech. However axeman was having none of that and with his autocannon and large laser blew out awesome's leg leaving it down.
Flea had been using his speed to bugger panther from behind who was having one leg nearly out already. Panther meanwhile was using it's guns to hurt the bigger mechs but this resulted in it's heat being dangerously high as well.
With heat issues now on axeman and panther axeman prepared to hit the awesome with axe and thus allow himself to cool down but then game basically ended as awesome fired from ground full salvo. 2 PPC's missed but one hit straight into axeman's head. 15 damage so one dead axeman. (this was rather awesome image we had. Legless awesome with very angry axe wielding mech preparing to give coup de grace but desperate last attempt blew up head in the last minute)
With just flea vs intact catapult, damaged panther and seriously damaged awesome we called it quits here.
With heat issues now on axeman and panther axeman prepared to hit the awesome with axe and thus allow himself to cool down but then game basically ended as awesome fired from ground full salvo. 2 PPC's missed but one hit straight into axeman's head. 15 damage so one dead axeman. (this was rather awesome image we had. Legless awesome with very angry axe wielding mech preparing to give coup de grace but desperate last attempt blew up head in the last minute)
That shouldn't have auto-killed the Axman unless it had already taken a 2 point hit to the head as Inner Sphere PPCs only do 10 damage, there's still a chance a lucky critical roll might have taken out the cockpit or even destroyed the head completely though.
How would Battletech work for 40K knights vs knights games (not in 28mm scale!)? The new adeptus titanicus sounds interesting but I am generally into something fairly hardcore. I mainly spend my time playing historical hex and counter wargames or reasonably complicated great war or ww2 naval games. So I am looking for something fairly simulation heavy.
Samsonov wrote: How would Battletech work for 40K knights vs knights games (not in 28mm scale!)? The new adeptus titanicus sounds interesting but I am generally into something fairly hardcore. I mainly spend my time playing historical hex and counter wargames or reasonably complicated great war or ww2 naval games. So I am looking for something fairly simulation heavy.
By the standards of most games today its very rules heavy but not say to the extent of Star Fleet Battles say so it may be quite light for you.
The only real resource management is Heat - everything costs heat to undertake and you can only vent so much at the end of turn so it can also build up, too much and your 'Mech's performance suffers and eventually ammo explodes and /or your Mech shuts down.
There are a lot of decisions to make in game and there are plenty of options however - terrain and movement are both important.
There is a free quick start rules pack which would give you a good taste.
I can't see any reason why a Knights vs Knights game using BT would not work - the only real difference is that Knights have Ion Shields. In some ways they are easier as they only have a few weapon systems whereas Mechs may have quite a few.
A full conversion document for Knights (and WraithKnights, Stompas and such) in BT would be a great resource if done well.
I agree with everything you say here, except this. Heat is definitely one of the defining factors of Battletech, arguably the defining factor, but especially for dedicated missile- and gun-boats, ammunition conservation is an issue too. If you've only got 8 shots for your LRM-15s (For example), do you let rip as soon as the enemy's in range when you may be on 11+ or 12+ to hit? Do you hold your fire till he's at medium range knowing that he may well be only a turn or two away from getting in under your minimum range? Even if you've got 20 rounds per gun, it's not that uncommon in a Battletech game to run out of ammunition. The only ones where you almost always should be firing regardless are Streak missiles which wont launch if they don't get a lock, SRM-2s, AC-2s, LRM-5s and Machineguns because outside of 'mechs like the Piranha the likelihood of running out of ammunition, particularly with the MGs, are pretty slim.
I agree with everything you say here, except this. Heat is definitely one of the defining factors of Battletech, but especially for dedicated missile- and gun-boats, ammunition conservation is an issue too. If you've only got 8 shots for your LRM-15s (For example), do you let rip as soon as the enemy's in range when you may be on 11+ or 12+ to hit? Do you hold your fire till he's at medium range knowing that he may well be only a turn or two away from getting in under your minimum range? Even if you've got 20 rounds per gun, it's not that uncommon in a Battletech game to run out of ammunition. The only ones where you almost always should be firing regardless are Streak missiles which wont launch if they don't get a lock, SRM-2s, AC-2s, LRM-5s and Machineguns because outside of 'mechs like the Piranha the likelihood of running out of ammunition, particularly with the MGs, are pretty slim.
I think the first thing you'd have to do is ditch any idea of doing it literally by tonnage since a brief Google search indicates that the weights of the heavier titans are largely speculative, but the 40k lexicanum suggests that the Warlord Titan is between 1,000 and 2,500 tonnes and something that size is so far outside of the scope of a Battlemech as to be completely unfeasible using the Battlemech construction rules. I'd suggest rephrasing it so that instead of Tonnes you have a Construction Factor, which coincidentally would function exactly like a tonnage value for construction purposes...
With that in mind I'd suggest as a starting point placing a Knight around 20, Warhound around 40, Reaver 60, Warlord 80 and Emperor at 100, tweak this as necessary with playtesting - as you're not playing strict Battletech you could in theory come up with a Construction Factor of up to 400, but you'd be having to rejig the record sheets since the standard ones only go up to 100 tonnes and that would be a very slow 'Mech, sorry I meant Titan, but it could also be ridiculously tough and it might not make for a particularly fun game having an opponent that can barely move but takes 30 or 40 turns plus to do anything more than superficial damage. Anything smaller than a Knight but larger than infantry can use Protomech rules, you may find it more appropriate to run Knights as heavy Protomechs and spread the proper Titans out a bit more.
The next thing would be to decide on what the various weapons would equate to, I'm not too familiar with Epic or Adeptus Titanicus these days, but I'd imagine (Again as a starting point) Plasma=PPC, Lasers=Lasers (Obviously), Cannon=ACs or possibly RAC, missiles=? missiles obviously but I don't know enough to give a proper assessment of which should be SRM/MRM/LRM. The hardest things to implement would be Shields and Titan CCWs, although there are expanded rules for Battlemech CCWs mainly for Solaris arena mechs IIRC so there's probably a rough comparison out there. Shields could act like an additional layer of armour but I'd probably suggest having it covering the whole Titan so a hit anywhere affects the shields, once they're down then the specific body locations start taking damage. You'd have to come up with your own rules for the weight and number of criticals the shield generator(s) take up and how quickly they regenerate though as AFAIK nothing like that exists in Battletech, as a starting point I'd probably have each shield being able to absorb 10 points of damage, tweak this upwards or downwards as necessary.
I should add again here that I'd suggest this as a starting point, it would probably need adjustment until it felt right.
Y’know, shields would be an interesting development in Battletech, especially if you had to consider facings (simple with front/back or more complex with 6 hex-sided facings).
Maybe a simple 3 tons per shield point, 1 critical slot, facing Front or Rear? 5 points of damage drops 1 shield (and maybe generates 2 heat)? Max shields 1/50 engine factors?
Stormonu wrote: Y’know, shields would be an interesting development in Battletech, especially if you had to consider facings (simple with front/back or more complex with 6 hex-sided facings).
Maybe a simple 3 tons per shield point, 1 critical slot, facing Front or Rear? 5 points of damage drops 1 shield? Max shields 1/50 engine factors?
That assumes any energy deflection system will be based on armor rather than providing a chance to completely deflect the attack, or even just reduce its damage.
Shields would be interesting, especially if they were tied to negative heat effects.
The Laser Anti-Missile system might be a good starting point in terms of a usable analog. The Laser Anti-Missile system didn't use ammo but instead generated a random amount of heat per use. If shields operated in a similar fashion it might work, where after the shield is activated it absorbs X damage and generates Y heat.
How X and Y are determined is up for discussion, but some things to consider:
1) When does the shield activate, and who chooses? Is it automatic (first shot rolled against defender) or can the controlling Mechwarrior/player determine when the shield is used?
2) How many times in a turn can a shield activate. The more the shield activates the less effective it should be overall. If it only activates once a turn, it should be able to stop a powerful attack (10+ damage) outright, if it is in effect for the duration of each turn, the overall impact should be lessened, either by shaving damage off an attack (like an AMS) or potentially adding defensive modifiers to the To-Hit roll of the shielded target.
That assumes any energy deflection system will be based on armor rather than providing a chance to completely deflect the attack, or even just reduce its damage.
That is a good point. Should the shield by ablative like BT armor? A fixed shield rating (with fixed heat and weight costs) would be easy to implement and understand since it mirrors how armor and most weapon systems work in Battletech. If a shield provides X number of "free" armor for Y tons and Z heat output you'd have a piece of equipment that operates like just about every other BT weapon system.
Another idea would be to have the shield simply modify the To-Hit number of the defending unit, making that unit harder to hit. That would be more like Eldar holofields than Imperium shields, but if the point is to make shield units more survivable that may have the same effect as negating damage points.
Another idea is treat shields like AMS, but apply the a table roll based on the damage of the attack (sorta like the reverse of determining cluster hits). Depending on the damage being absorbed the defending player rolls 2D6 and consults the shield chart and the shields absorb a percentage of the damage. Obviously higher rolls would absorb more damage and lower rolls absorb less damage.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Shields would be interesting, especially if they were tied to negative heat effects.
I think that would be a given. Your LAMS example is a good point. But rather than just building heat if missiles are fired at you, it just consistently adds heat. How much should be based on what it actually does. It could even be set up similar to Ultra ACs as well. The more you use them, the higher chance they jam. With shields, the more consistent use per turn would increase the overall heat it adds to the Mech, at least for initial versions. Or it has a base Heat point, and then adds on based on how many times it is hit or how much it recharges, depending on the model desired.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: 1) When does the shield activate, and who chooses? Is it automatic (first shot rolled against defender) or can the controlling Mechwarrior/player determine when the shield is used?
The first is easy to answer in the BT realm, as their is a specific time when things like electronics are turned on and off or switch modes or the dumping of ammo. Any activation/deactivation of said shield would be performed in said format.
The second part is a bit harder. If a pure deflection chance, much like 40K's Invulnerable Save, then there is little reason to choose, as that is already decided when you turn it on. Pure Damage Reduction ala AMS is in a similar vein. Rechargable Armor is where it goes in to the maybe pile, but if it only faces one direction, as it would be reducing the amount of total damage anyway, as being hit by both a Med Laser and AC/20 would still do the same cumulative damage, and damage is only applied at the end of the Phase.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: 2) How many times in a turn can a shield activate. The more the shield activates the less effective it should be overall. If it only activates once a turn, it should be able to stop a powerful attack (10+ damage) outright, if it is in effect for the duration of each turn, the overall impact should be lessened, either by shaving damage off an attack (like an AMS) or potentially adding defensive modifiers to the To-Hit roll of the shielded target.
That is an interesting point. If it goes as a 40K IS, then having it start out as a 5+ Save, but after 2 hits it goes to 6+ would be interesting, but still goes against how damage is considered in a BT game.
For what it's worth, the original shield rules for 1st edition Epic had the shield cover a 180degreee arc, but offset from the model's front (IIRC it covered the front and right side quadrants - in Battletech I'd say the front, right front and right rear hex faces).
If it were me, I'd use Battletech rules for Knight vs Knight games, rather than adding titans - Armigers up to the big heavy Acastus kinights.
Apart from the Castellan and Valiant models, most Knights don't tend to mount too may weapon systems. The Paladin, for example, has one main gun, 2 machineguns and a close combat weapon, with an optional AA or rocket mount on the roof. The most you can end up with is the version with a battlecannon and gatling gun - that'll have two main weapons (some sort of gauss rifle and an ultra AC), a machinegun or melta (not sure what that's be in BT), a flamer and a missile launcher or twin light AC on top.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: 2) How many times in a turn can a shield activate. The more the shield activates the less effective it should be overall. If it only activates once a turn, it should be able to stop a powerful attack (10+ damage) outright, if it is in effect for the duration of each turn, the overall impact should be lessened, either by shaving damage off an attack (like an AMS) or potentially adding defensive modifiers to the To-Hit roll of the shielded target.
That is an interesting point. If it goes as a 40K IS, then having it start out as a 5+ Save, but after 2 hits it goes to 6+ would be interesting, but still goes against how damage is considered in a BT game.
I know I'm quoting these out of order, but it will make sense, honestly.
I would also be against any shield conveying a saving throw, Battletech is complex enough as it is without adding an extra mechanism for damage resolution. I would treat it like additional armour that can recharge, say an extra 20 points which recharges at 10 points per turn at the start of the following turn and which has to be allocated to a single hit facing. I'm assuming here that any such equipment is going to be post Fed-Com Civil war so 20 points should confer a decent advantage and take a bit of the edge off any incoming attacks without being too excessive.
If the shield is acting like a cloaking device or advanced ECM of some sort however there's no reason IMO why being hit should degrade the capabilities of the shield since it's not trying to actually stop the projectiles or beams.
Make the generator 2 or 3 tonnes and 2 or 3 criticals, it should be fairly weighty and bulky but this would still allow heavier mechs to carry multiple shield generators (Limited a bit by how much space they take up) whilst still allowing lights to take one or two albeit at the cost of some or even all of their weaponary. Generators IMO should have to be located in a torso section.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Shields would be interesting, especially if they were tied to negative heat effects.
I think that would be a given. Your LAMS example is a good point. But rather than just building heat if missiles are fired at you, it just consistently adds heat. How much should be based on what it actually does. It could even be set up similar to Ultra ACs as well. The more you use them, the higher chance they jam. With shields, the more consistent use per turn would increase the overall heat it adds to the Mech, at least for initial versions. Or it has a base Heat point, and then adds on based on how many times it is hit or how much it recharges, depending on the model desired.
The way I'd initially handle it would be a simple +1 Heat per hit. There's already a similar sort of mechanic with critical hits where once you strip the armour off a location or two you're far better off using multiple low damage weapons than a single high damage weapon. In universe rationale would be that the shields struggle to regenerate multiple breaches from a battery of machine-guns or SRM launchers more than a single breach caused by a Gauss rifle slug. I realise that this would mean you could potentially force a heat shut down or even ammo explosion on an opponent by overwhelming their shields with LBX Cluster rounds or multiple Streak SRM hits.
An alternative would be that based on the shield regenerating up to 10 points per turn, it generates +1 Heat per point regenerated, with the option for the mechwarrior to shut it down, this should however be an all-or-nothing deal, the player shouldn't be free to chose how much capacity the shields regenerate depending on how much extra Heat they can cope with. Using either method means that whilst multiple shields might seem like a great idea, you'd need plenty of spare heat capacity to cope with it.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: 1) When does the shield activate, and who chooses? Is it automatic (first shot rolled against defender) or can the controlling Mechwarrior/player determine when the shield is used?
The first is easy to answer in the BT realm, as their is a specific time when things like electronics are turned on and off or switch modes or the dumping of ammo. Any activation/deactivation of said shield would be performed in said format.
The second part is a bit harder. If a pure deflection chance, much like 40K's Invulnerable Save, then there is little reason to choose, as that is already decided when you turn it on. Pure Damage Reduction ala AMS is in a similar vein. Rechargable Armor is where it goes in to the maybe pile, but if it only faces one direction, as it would be reducing the amount of total damage anyway, as being hit by both a Med Laser and AC/20 would still do the same cumulative damage, and damage is only applied at the end of the Phase.
I agree. I don't think it'll matter if you stick with the standard Battletech method of resolving incoming hits, the only thing that might matter would be if the armour beneath is already damaged or gone in which case it makes sense for the attacking player to resolve their heavy, single hits first, but then that's no different from how Battletech normally works anyway.
The main reason I am even considering a Save method is because we are talking about Titanicus Knights whose shields use that method.
To justify doing a Heat per Hit system, the energy shield would either completely negate the attacks ala Save or it would reduce the energy (aka Damage) of the incoming hit. Regenerating Energy Armor (REA) would only generate high heat if it was assaulted by numerous LB-X, Machine Guns, or Small Lasers, but hardly anything against an AC/20. Conversely, REA would be better balanced based on how much damage it regenerated so that way it would generate high heat no matter if it was hit by an AC/20 or a plethora of Machine Guns. But that's just my opinion.
Construction-wise, shields already exist in BT, but they are [ur="http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Shield"l]physical objects[/url], much like those used by the Roman Legions. Unlike most Melee Weapons, they have a set crit size and mass, no matter the Mech carrying them. I think that this should continue. Mass, Crit Space, Strength, and Heat generation would be based on the size of the device itself.
I also have some ideas about having two versions of this, one being Rotational and one being Directional, but that might be going too far down a rabbit hole, and would be considering this from a perspective of brand new tech as opposed to long established tech that the Imperium of Man uses.
You could treat it as ablative armor, where a generator protects from x damage per size of the generator. Heat would factor in by being a constant while the shield was turned on. So a light shield could be C:2 T:3, negate five damage, and generate a constant three heat. While on, it regains one box of health (larger versions could regen faster), and covers one arc, which can be shifted during the torso twist phase.
Going with the usual BT four per catagory:
Light shield C2 T3 shields 5/+1 Heat: 3
Medium shield C3 T4 10/+2 Heat 5
Heavy Shield C5 T5 15/+3 Heat 7
Assault Shield C7 T9 20/+4 Heat 10
As an example.
I like the idea of the shield generating a small amount of heat while on (say, no more than 3 or maybe 5 at worst), but would prefer a system where when they start absorbing damage they "overload" and send feedback to the reactor. I'd like for the player to have the option to "recharge" the shield each round (so long as the generator doesn't take a crit), but risk overheating the mech if you do so. Try and absorb too much too fast, and you could shut down or explode the reactor.
Thanks for all the discussion. Given that I have barely understood any of it suggests that Battletech has the level of complexity I am looking for!
I enjoy playing around with the 40K background to make it hard science fiction so I would not do a literal conversion. I love the ethos of decaying medieval empire in space but need accompany it with a good dose of realism. Although I would be using knight models and painting them with heraldry for the actual underlying technology I would probably ignore the 40K background. Suffice to say no knight would have a close combat weapon.
I have four (!) sets of PDF introductory rules. There is:
The first and second links are basically the same thing, except the first one is newer.
The third and four links are for separate sets of rules, Alpha Strike and Battleforce. Alpha Strike is a modernized and simplified system designed to play larger battles on a regular tabletop instead of hex maps, whereas Battleforce was the mass combat version of Battletech (it also had simiplified mech rules, but because it was designed to much bigger battles, up to planetary full assaults played with world maps and everything).
As to the ethos of decaying medieval rule in space it is mostly already in Battletech too, except clasically it also added a splash of "decaying Vietnam War" to it. And you can totally add close combat weapons if you like, you know
For example, meet the Hatchetman:
Soon in the Battletech computer game too!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mattlov wrote: I would treat it like a Particle Dampening Field like BT already has, and just expand what it works against.
But I'm a fan of simple solutions.
Yes, the blue shield would probably be a good starting point, I think.
Charistoph wrote: The main reason I am even considering a Save method is because we are talking about Titanicus Knights whose shields use that method.
But bear in mind that in 40k, force fields use the same damage mitigation mechanic as physical armour, In Battletech, that'd be filling in dots. I'd say that a force field would generate an amount of heat per turn it's switched on, and has an amount of armour boxes that must be checked off before any of the unit's physical armour is marked off. This damage will regenerate at the start of every turn.
I'd also suggest that the system covers a limited number of hex faces, and that multiple systems can be added to cover additional facings (protected facings must be contiguous).
If shields were done in BTech it'd be Small/Medium/Large Energy Shield.
Each shield would have a threshold of damage it could take each turn before anything above that bled through, and you'd roll each turn to see if shut down (2 or under first turn, 3 or under second turn, and so on).
So a small shield would have, say, a 20-point threshold. The first 20 points of damage the unit suffers are ignored, anything over that hits as normal.
Medium at 40. Large at 60.
The numbers above are made up, but you get the idea.
Or, given it's BTech, you could make it even more complicated:
As above, but the shields have a max single hit value as well, so that 20 point Small Energy Shield has a single-hit threshold of, say, 10. Get hit with a 15-point Gauss Rifle? You soak 10, the shield loses 10 of its points for this turn, and 5 bleeds through. Get hit by another Gauss Rifle hit? You lose the remaining 10 points, the last 5 goes through. Get hit by a third Gauss slug? The shield is overloaded this turn, the full 15 goes through.
Charistoph wrote: The main reason I am even considering a Save method is because we are talking about Titanicus Knights whose shields use that method.
But bear in mind that in 40k, force fields use the same damage mitigation mechanic as physical armour, In Battletech, that'd be filling in dots. I'd say that a force field would generate an amount of heat per turn it's switched on, and has an amount of armour boxes that must be checked off before any of the unit's physical armour is marked off. This damage will regenerate at the start of every turn.
There's also the difference of 27K of tech advances, too. Again, the main consideration of it is that replicate the experience with tech that we're making up.
AndrewGPaul wrote:I'd also suggest that the system covers a limited number of hex faces, and that multiple systems can be added to cover additional facings (protected facings must be contiguous).
No need to limiting to hex faces. The game already has a system to recognize between Left, Right, Front, and Rear and it is taken from there. Unfortunately, that favors a frontal facing, so a hex focus would keep it more balanced. Not needed, but definitely a consideration.
And we can also consider a Directional and Rotational format as well. Directional would be individually smaller, but only protect that one side, requiring more to gain something regarding full coverage, and be specific to a slot as well. Rotational would also be fixed to a slot, but be larger in total (but not as much as say 3 Directionals), but it can be rotated around at the same time one would determine if it was on or off.
H.B.M.C. wrote:If shields were done in BTech it'd be Small/Medium/Large Energy Shield.
Each shield would have a threshold of damage it could take each turn before anything above that bled through, and you'd roll each turn to see if shut down (2 or under first turn, 3 or under second turn, and so on).
So a small shield would have, say, a 20-point threshold. The first 20 points of damage the unit suffers are ignored, anything over that hits as normal.
Medium at 40. Large at 60.
The numbers above are made up, but you get the idea.
Or, given it's BTech, you could make it even more complicated:
As above, but the shields have a max single hit value as well, so that 20 point Small Energy Shield has a single-hit threshold of, say, 10. Get hit with a 15-point Gauss Rifle? You soak 10, the shield loses 10 of its points for this turn, and 5 bleeds through. Get hit by another Gauss Rifle hit? You lose the remaining 10 points, the last 5 goes through. Get hit by a third Gauss slug? The shield is overloaded this turn, the full 15 goes through.
This last one is closer to how the physical shields work. They reduce the damage taken, but that reduced damage is taken by the Shield until it runs out of damage and is lost. Using the Shield also limits the actions engaged.
An option for overloading the shield is interesting. There are devices called the TSEMP and Battlemech Taser, which operates to shut a mech down. Something like this could be used to overload the system causing its capacitors to spectacularly fail like a damaged Gauss Rifle.
In addition, if we want to work with early copies of such tech, we can also consider either a buffered system which can overload and shut down (but still generate heat) on a 11+ when hit (or when hit by a PPC or high damage Weapon), or go without the buffers and just have the risk innate, but instead of shutting down just explodes for a certain amount of damage.
Back in the 80's, I had a pair of Rommel/Patton BT tanks. I'm trying to figure out which TRO they FIRST appeared in. I see them in a copy of the 3039 TRO, but my copy tells me that it was printed in 2008. I know the models I had are older than that - somewhere between '88 and '92, at least.
Back in the 80's, I had a pair of Rommel/Patton BT tanks. I'm trying to figure out which TRO they FIRST appeared in. I see them in a copy of the 3039 TRO, but my copy tells me that it was printed in 2008. I know the models I had are older than that - somewhere between '88 and '92, at least.
They first appeared towards the back of the original TRO 3025.
Back in the 80's, I had a pair of Rommel/Patton BT tanks. I'm trying to figure out which TRO they FIRST appeared in. I see them in a copy of the 3039 TRO, but my copy tells me that it was printed in 2008. I know the models I had are older than that - somewhere between '88 and '92, at least.
They first appeared towards the back of the original TRO 3025.
Ah! That’s why I couldn’t find them - I didn’t think there were any conventional vehicles in that TRO, so I kept skipping over it.
So I went and bought a box of Knights for 20 bucks, and let me tell you, those are some seriously great models! 21 parts per mini, but quite easy to assemble:
Size-wise, well... the 8mm Knights are on the small side for 6mm Battlemechs, but nothing too bad. Compared with RRT Destroids, they have about a third less pieces and significantly sharper details ("Oh yeah, dear backers, we have split everything by the middle because is THE ONLY WAY TO DO THE INCREDIBLE DETAIL these 80s illustrations have" my furry ). As the destroids are also not very big, they look quite well side by side:
OTOH, when compared with actual Battletech stuff or MWO printed mechs, well... they are kind of small ^^:
Given the above sizes, I'd personally do the current Knights as medium 'mechs, maybe on the lower end of heavy, but no more.
Albertorius, you have just made my day. My RRT mechs are about to become stamped with auqilas....
It's also amazing GW can make a model with 20 parts and its fun to put together (put my knights together tonight), but with the RRT 20-part models you want to go find Kevin and do bad things to him and his dog.
The Knights may a bit smaller but they are really chunky so I think them staying as Heavies (which given they are about 75 tons is nice) is cool. Think I will get a box of them and do some rule conversions....
Is not ironic that a ‘mech carrying essentially two rapid-fire battle cannons, a missile pod and a gun cluster (Multi-melta) would be named “Warhammer”?
BattleTech Titanicus (Battle Techicus?) would be an interesting game - better as Classic or Alpha Strike?
Engine: XL400
Structure: Endo-Composite
Walking Speed: 1
Running Speed: 2
Armour: Ferro-Fibrous
Arment: A lot Of Shooty - See Below
Heatsinks: 58 Double (116)
Overview:
Towards the end of the Jihad a new form of Battlemech emerged from the factories
of the Word of Blakist's controlled planets, the Super Heavy Omega class Battlemech,
equipped with a horrifying amount of firepower and tremendous amounts of armour they
took a horrific toll on assaulting forces before being overcome.
With a couple of examples being captured by the 51st, Tyrian Ironworks came into possession
of one such model. After a study a design team decided the Super Heavy Mechs where feasible
and that Tyrian Ironworks should attempt to produce their own design.
After a long period of designing the blueprints for what would be known as the Emperor class
Battlemech where drawn up. Standing twice as tall as a conventional Mech and weighing four times that
of the largest of conventional assault Mechs the Emperor was designed as a walking fortress.
Owing to the stupendous nature of this project the Emperor required special components to be drawn up,
a new Gyro was needed to keep the titan upright whilst a new cockpit was devised to allow the
full crew of four - two Pilot's (one primary one secondary/gunner), a Gunner and an Engineer - to occupy
the vehicle and crew it to full effect, whilst a pair of specially designed Infantry bays where
constructed to allow Infantry to be carried in the legs.
Capabilities:
Built as the ultimate assault platform the Imperator version of the Emperor mounts a vast array of
artillery and long ranged weaponry. The primary weapons are six Thumper light artillery pieces
mounted in the Right Arm, each cannon fed by a one ton ammunition bin. This firepower alone is enough
to level most fortifications in a few volleys but the Imperator also mounts a Sniper medium artillery
cannon in a specially constructed casement style turret above the Centre Torso, allowing it to pound hostile
fortifications from a long range. Backing this up is a blistering Left Arm mount consisting of four Improved
Extended Range Particle Projection Cannon's, all linked together to fire through the same muzzle, much
in the same way that the Binary Laser works. This epic firepower is capable of crippling even Assault Mechs
in a single shot and it can level smaller units in but one epic blast. One thing that the designers did note
was that large, slow moving targets where vulnerable to Aireospace fighters performing strafing runs.
To counter this a dedicated anti-aircraft battery is mounted on the back of the Imperator in a set of turrets.
Centrally mounted is a powerful Bombast Laser, a deadly laser cannon that is more than capable of ripping
the wing off an incoming aircraft. Supporting this in the subsidary rear turrets on either side are a pair
of Rotary Autocannon 2's fed by four tons of ammunition each. Together these are capable of shredding an
incoming fighter in a single sustained burst. mounted for of each of these side torso's is a small turret
mounting a Medium Laser. Finally within each leg there are four Machine Guns, two facing forwards, one
facing the legs respective side and one facing rearwards.
Given the heavy nature and cumbersome manouvrability of the Emperor class it was decided to mount addiditional
onboard defences in the form of a pair of six ton Infantry Bays, one in each leg. These are capable of carrying
two conventional plattons or a point of Battle Armour each with the transported units capable of firing out
of the Mechs legs via special firing ports. In addidition to this the Imperator can carry two Platoons or
four Battle Armour points atop its back within the citadel.
With an XL400 barely getting it to 21.6KPH the Emperor class relys upon armour for its protection. 65.5 tons of
Ferro-Fibrous armour keep the Emperor class Mechs safe from enemy fire, allowing it to weather an entire companies
firepower and survive. If enemy fire should breach the torso's and touch off the ammunition stored there then the
CASEII system in each of them will vent the damage out of the rear plates. Finally the crew compartment is designed
to eject, taking all four members to safety if the vehicle should be destroyed.
To help fendo off incoming Missiles the Imperator mounts two Anti Missile Systems, one on each rear Side Torso turret.
These can shoot down incoming missiles with ease and are fed by a ton of ammunition each.
Battle History:
The first Emperor class Battlemech to see service was the Imperator class "Drachenfels" during Tyrian Ironworks
counter assault on the planet of Blue Water's. Draconis backed forces had invaded and taken over the planet a few
months back and since established a formidable armed force, using Tyrian Ironworks own factories to construct new
mechs. After a landing zone was cleared and the hostile fleet driven back from the planet a special cargo jumpship
arrived in-system carrying, along with its standard dropships, a single specially modified dropship.
Landing at the dropsite this dropship opened up its specially modified and enlarged Mechbay doors to reveal the
mighty looming figure of the "Drachenfels". Moving under escort and considerable security to her designated warzone
on the front the "Drachenfels" succeeded in ataining her position in two days, without being spotted by hostile scouts.
infact, such was the secrecy behind the making, arrival and moving of the Imperator that the hostile forces did not know
about even the existence of the Mech until they first engaged her in combat.
The first ever engagement that an Emperor was to see was the siege breaking assault upon the fortified town of
Brensloc. Advancing at the head of a massive assault force composed of two companies of Mechs and countless vehicles
and APC mounted Infantry the "Drachenfels" breached the walls of the city in under a minute via a ceasless bombardment
from her artillery weapons before turning her guns on the identified hardpoints and troop concentrations within the city
as she approached. Shrugging off masses of fire that would have felled an entire company she carried four platoons of
Infantry, two SRM and two rifle, into the township, using her sheer bulk to punch another hole in the wall so as to allow
the other forces to continue to flow through the numerous other holes she had opened up. The town fell in under six hours
and with less than a quarter of the origional predicted casualties on the attackers part. The Emperor project appeared a
resounding success.
The "Drachenfels" saw combat several more times, taking a few more captured townships and fighting in several major battles
until she came to the fortress-city of Shult. Shult had been built as a fortress like no other, able to outlast a siege
and hold off against an army.
Undeterred the "Drachenfels" once more spearheaded the assault, blowing holes in the fortress walls. However what was not
known was that the raiders had been in communication with their fleet and had planned for such an assault.
As the "Drachenfels" began her attack the raiders fleet attacked, surprising Tyrians fleet and managing to push several
battlegroups to high orbit. Whilst the majority quickly found themselves engaging a rapidly responding Tyrian fleet
a single Destroyer managed to take up a low orbit firing posision and began a bombardment of the Imperator. Caught in the
open and with no cover to retreat to and a ground speed barely faster than a running man the mighty engine had no choice
but to weather the storm. As the Tyrian fleet realised what was happening they swiftly pushed to break through the screening
ships and assault the bombarding ship, desparetly trying to save their mighty war engine from destruction.
Despite the fleets best efforts the Destroyer was able to keep up its barrage for just over two minutes before being driven off.
Weathering the barrage, the "Drachenfels" crew managed to hold out throughout all of this, despite taking heavy damage,
however after one minute and 48 seconds enough damage had been taken to render the Drachenfels out of the battle and the
Commander, Lucy Willis, made the decision to abandon Mech and eject. The head was recovered by friendly forces and the crew
survived unharmed.
However the Drachenfels was a wreck, the Right Arm had been blown clean off, all the side turrets had been destroyed, and the
Mech was essentially unmoveable. Despite this set back however enough damage had been inflicted to Shult, with the aid of a
battery of Banesword's, to allow the atackers to succeed. Once the battle was over work began on ways to recover and repair
"Drachenfels". Although the mighty carcass was still standing it was immediately decided that any attempt to move it would
be impossible, especially seeing as there are no sub-dropship vehicles capable of moving any Emperor class.
Instead an ingenious plan was put into action as the factories of Shult where put to use, and an entire pecially desighned
repair bay was built around the crippled titan. Reapairs took six months to complete, and in this time the second Emperor
class, also an Imperator model, was finished and delivered to Blue Water. Named the "Norseland" the new Imperator met up
with "Drachenfels" as she walked out of her repair bay. Both Mechs then proceeded on a week long journey to the front where
they took place in the final major engagement of the war over Blue Water, namely the storming of Rork's Crag, an infamous
fortress constructed out of a small mountain range. Under the cover of over eight companies of Banesword's, all firing
in support of the behemoths, the Imperators advanced side by side and smashed several vast holes in the fortress walls
before breaking through themselves and fighting within. After two days of fighting the fortress fell and with it the
last major raider stronghold on Blue Water.
Having aquitted themselves well throughout the war it was decided that the Emperor project was a success and that it
was time to go ahead with full scale production. However the sheer size of the Emperor class Battlemechs mean's that
even at full production rates only six such Mechs can be built per year, given the current facilities. Currently Tyrian
Ironworks are looking to expand there facilities.
Deployment:
Emperor class currently see deployment with only Tyrian Ironworks private forces, owing to the power of this Battlemech
Tyrian Ironworks do not wish to allow any other forces to control them.
Additional:
Okay, yes this is crazy. Say what you will though,it is still awesome.
Right, special rules:
Firstly some of the locations below:
F/R-[Torso Section]-T: These are special turrets mounted on the Mech to allow some of the lighter weapons to fire in
an extended arc. For game purposes they are not a seperate hit location and count as a part of the appropiate Torso
section. However, weapons within them have an extended fire arc. Weapons in the Side Torso rear turrets can fire into
the front, rear and the appropiate side arcs whilst the CT turret has a 360 degree arc. Forward Side Torso turrets can fire
forwards and into the appropiate side torso whilst the for CT turret can only fire forwards.
The Infantry in the leg bays may only mount and dismount if the Mech remained stationary. However they may fire from the Mech
using the appropiate rear Side Torso turret arc. If the Mech falls then each platoon suffer's 2D6 casualties and each battle
armour suit suffers D3 hits.
Infantry may also be carried on the Bassilica atop the Emperor class. The Bassilica can support two conventional platoons
or four points of Battle Armour. These may be mounted before game. to mount or dismount during game the Mech must stop beside
a hex containing scenery 4 levels higher than the terrain the Mech is currently on and remain there for one turn whilst the Infantry
mount/dismount. If the Infantry have Jumppacks then they may dismount at any point even if the Mech is moving. They must mount as
none Jumppack Infantry though. If the Mech falls then all platoons/points are thrown off into a random hex as per scattering, Conventional
units taking 4D6 points of damage and Battle Armour units suffering D6 hits to each member of the point.
The Emperor class tower above other Battlemechs. An Emperor class counts as being four levels high when it comes to determining cover.
In addidition to this it may only make punching attacks against units on terrain that is two or more levels higher than it.
The Thumpers have been specially modified as to only take up five critical slots each. Owing to the huge size of the Mech
the number of crit slots available in each location is multiplied by three. In the arms only the Shoulder and Upper arm acutators are
present.
Owing to their huge size all acutators take up twice the amount of critical slots. The Gyro takes up twice as many Critical slots too.
The four ISIERPPC's mounted within the Left Arm are designed to fire as one, much in the same way as a Binary Laser. When firing them
decide how many you wish to fire and then roll to hit and for the location as though they where only one weapon.
==========================================================
Equipment Type Location mass
----------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Composite -- 30
Cockpit: Emperor special HD 10
Improved Full Head Ejection HD 00
Gyro: Super Heavy CT 20
Engine: XL400 CT 26.5
6 Thumper's Artillery RA 90
4 Enhanced ERPPC's Direct Energy LA 28
Bombast Laser Direct Energy R-CT-T 7
Sniper Artillery F-CT-T 20
Rotary Autocannon 2 Ballistic R-RT-T 8
Rotary Autocannon 2 Ballistic R-LT-T 8
Medium Laser Direct Energy F-RT-T 1
Medium Laser Direct Energy F-LT-T 1
@ Sniper Ammunition CT 1
@ Thumper Ammunition RT 6
@ RAC2 Ammunition RT 4
@ RAC2 Ammunition LT 4
5 DHS Heatsink RL 5
5 DHS Heatsink LL 5
11 DHS Heatsink LT 11
Infantry Bay Compartment RL 6
Infantry Bay Compartment LL 6
CaseII Failsafe RT 1
CaseII Failsafe LT 1
17 DHS(inc 10 base) Heatsink Engine 7
5 DHS Heatsink CT 5
15 DHS Heatsink LA 15
2 Machine Gun's Ballistic RL 1
2 Machine Gun's Ballistic LL 1
Machine Gun Ballistic RL-RS 0.5
Machine Gun Ballistic LL-LS 0.5
Machine Gun Ballistic RL-R 0.5
Machine Gun Ballistic LL-R 0.5
@ Machine Gun Ammunition RL 0.5
@ Machine Gun Ammunition LL 0.5
AMS Countermeasure RT 0.5
AMS Countermeasure LT 0.5
@AMS Ammunition RT 1
@AMS Ammunition LT 1
===============================================================
Location Structure Armour
---------------------------------------------------------------
HD 12 26
CT 124 230
CT-R --- 18
RT 84 152
RT-R -- 16
LT 84 152
LT-R -- 16
RA 68 100
LA 68 100
RL 84 150
LL 84 150
Total 65.5 tons
_____________________________________________________________________
Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 250 Light Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 54.0 km/h (43.2 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h (64.8 km/h)
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
20.0 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
Overview:
Designed as part of Tyrian Ironworks 'Universal Mech' scheme the Knight is
intended to fulfill the role of a tactical Medium Mech, capable of filling any
role on the battlefield that was required of it. Proving to be very succesful
this Mech has seen a dramatic rise in popularity since its introduction.
One of the most notable features of the Knight class is the predominance for
the mounting of melee weapons. Almost every configuration mounts a melee weapon
to back the primary ranged weapons up, and allowing the Mch to dliver some
extra clout at close quarters.
Capabilities:
Built aound a 250 rated Light Engine, the Knight is extremely agile for the
amount of firepower it carries. With a top speed of 86KPH the Knight can outrun
anything it cannot outgun.
Protecting the Knight is 9.5 tons of Standard Armour, mainly concentrated
around the front of the Mech. This allows the Mech to face down enemy fire long
enough to deliver the killing blow.
Variants:
Castellan: The basic configuration, the Castellan mounts a massive Ultra AC10
as its primary weapon. This gigantic cannon can put huge amounts of damage down
range but suffers from a lack of ammunition - only a single ton is carried. In
the Left Arm a gargantuan Chainsaw is fitted to allow the Castellan to deal
crippling blows in close quarters. For backup the Castellan mounts a single
Small Pulse Laser.
Errant: The Errant is one of the more favoured variants, mainly due to the fact
that it increase's endurance over the Castellan, whilst retaining much of the
tactical flexibility of it. The primary weapon is a Snubnosed PPC mounted with
a Medium Laser in the Right Arm. Whilst not as capable at longer ranges this
weapon allows the Errant to fight in close quarters with deadly efficiency.
Backing this up are a pair of Medium Lasers and a pair of Small Pulse Lasers,
one in each of the Side Torso's. The Errant also upgrades the Castellans
Chainsaw to a dual bladed variant that can shred vehicles with ease.
Lancer: The Lancer is built to do one thing: charge. Mounting a Mech sized
Lance the charge of a Lancer configuration is devestating to see as enemy Mechs
are skewered by the colossal lance and hurled aside by the charging war engine.
Mounted at the base of the Lance is a small shield that allows the Lancer to
deflect incoming fire. The only long ranged weapon mounted by the Lancer
configuration is the Large Variable Speed Pulse Laser. Backing this up are a
pair of Medium Laser's, a pair of Small Laser's and a pair of Small Pulse
Laser's, one in each Side Torso. This configuration is especially favoured in
urban enviroments and Solaris arenas, where the sight of the Lancer charging
can turn the crowd exstatic.
Paladin: The Paladin configuration is built for fighting across most
enviroments. As a primary weapon it mounts a single ERPPC, capable of stripping
nearly a ton of armour off a target per blast. Mounted in the Left Arm, the
large Mace is used to club enemy Mechs to the ground, brutaly beating them into
submission. At close quarters the Paladin variant can also call upon two Small
Pulse Laser's and an SRM6.
Crusader: The Crusader is designed as a close assault variant. Mounted in its
Right Arm are a pair of Large Pulse Laser's, allowing the Cruader to deal
crippling damage at close ranges and softening the enemy upfor its Sword.
Backing this up are a pair of Small Pulse laser's.
Defender: Intended to be used to guard vital locations the Defender has been
geared to fight against a hostile assault force. In its Left Arm it mounts a
Large Shield that allows it to resist most attempts to soften it up at longer
ranges whilst in its Right Arm it carries a Large Vibro Blade. In each Side
Torso the Defender configuration carries a medium Laser and a Small Pulse Laser
to augment its firepower at close quarters, and in its Centre Torso it carries
a single Light PPC.
Archer: The Archer loadout differs from the rest of the Knight designs in that
it carries no close combat weapon. Geared to provide fire support the Archer
mounts an LRM15 in each Arm. Three tons of ammunition are carried to feed the
launchers whilst a par of Medium Laser's and a single Small Pulse Laser provide
some in close defence.
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 83 points 5.00
Engine: Light Fusion Engine 250 9.50
Walking MP: 5 (4)
Running MP: 8 (6)
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA Armor: Standard Armor AV - 152 9.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 16 22
Center Torso (rear) 5
L/R Torso 12 20
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 8 14
L/R Leg 12 20
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Small Pulse Laser RT 2 1 1.00
Ultra AC/10 RA 4 7 13.00
Chainsaw LA - 5 5.00
@Ultra AC/10 (10) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 32
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 9
4 2 2 2 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, MEL, SAW, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SRM-6 CT 4 2 3.00
Small Pulse Laser RT 2 1 1.00
Small Pulse Laser LT 2 1 1.00
ER PPC RA 15 3 7.00
Mace LA - 5 5.00
@SRM-6 (15) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 26
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 5 Points: 10
4 3 2 1 0 2 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: OMNI, MEL, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
I know it's in fitting with the Battletech scale/weight thing, but 400 tons is borderline laughable (this is not a harsh critique, but we have main battle tanks that roll around at 70 tons and are...1/200th the size of an Imperator if not smaller)
Elbows wrote: I know it's in fitting with the Battletech scale/weight thing, but 400 tons is borderline laughable (this is not a harsh critique, but we have main battle tanks that roll around at 70 tons and are...1/200th the size of an Imperator if not smaller)
That's why I suggested earlier re-naming it as a Construction Factor or something similar rather than tonnage, I think you need to break away from the idea that this number is the tonnage of the Titan for it to work with anything larger than Knights. It would mean that playing Titan-tech wouldn't be entirely compatible with Battletech, but I don't think that's what anyone was after anyway, to portray a Titan in a Battletech game you'd probably have to treat it like a grounded Dropship as a starting point.
The Battletech tonnage system is somewhat dubious anyway, under the original construction system you couldn't have made a PzVIII Maus for example and it gets even more glaring when you consider water craft where even a Flower Class Corvette or a type VII U-Boat are far too massive to be constructed in 3025 (Before anyone points it out, I am aware that larger traditional ships at least made their way back into the fluff fairly recently but they're still not constructable under the existing Battletech rules AFAIK) or aircraft where the likes of a Boeing 747 or even a fully laden B-29 are too big and heavy for Battletech.
But being realistic here, let's face it, the only reason 100 tonnes was picked as the upper limit for Battlemech construction and the reason why Battlemechs increase in weight in 5 tonne increments rather than us having for example, 107 tonne assault mechs, is that these were nice, round numbers which were settled on early in the evolution of the game. The same applies to a certain degree at the other end of the spectrum too of course.
Regarding the Emperor Titan as posted above:
Walking Speed: 1
Running Speed: 2
Assuming that you'd be playing this on a tabletop rather than a hex-map, I'd be inclined to reduce the running speed down to 1.5. Tabletop ranges and movements doubled in inches according to the official rules IIRC, so you'd still be moving at a 3" run, but it will be and IMO should be a very slow plod across the Battlefield.
I am working on 75 base for tons for Knights with the only real issue how to do the Ion Shields - thinking ablative regenerating armour that work on three chosen hexes at the moment?
re Melta guns -be nice to continue the idea of close range shots are more effective - which I donlt think has an analogue in BT?
I am not sure that the Titans are actually that slow - they are less manoeuvrable which again not sure how to do in BattleTech.
I think a 400ton Warhound would be fine and about as high as I would go
I am working on 75 base for tons for Knights with the only real issue how to do the Ion Shields - thinking ablative regenerating armour that work on three chosen hexes at the moment?
I think that sounds like it would work quite well.
re Melta guns -be nice to continue the idea of close range shots are more effective - which I donlt think has an analogue in BT?
The Heavy Gauss Rifle might be a good equivilent or starting point, rules wise at least. IIRC Meltas were pretty short ranged so you'd probably need to adjust the stats to reflect that, perhaps as much as half them and of course they'd be energy rather than ballistic weapons. http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_Gauss_Rifle
I am not sure that the Titans are actually that slow - they are less manoeuvrable which again not sure how to do in BattleTech.
If I was looking to reflect this I'd probably limit them to only being able to turn one hex facing per turn. To turn 180 they'd either have to stand on the spot for three turns minimum or they'd have a turning circle of sorts with the radius dependent on how much they were moving. You could use a sliding scale to make the smaller titans gradually more manouevrable.
The problem as far as movement goes though is that unless you come up with rules for fitting more than one engine per chassis, at 400 tonnes the fastest you can make a mech go is W1/R2. It wouldn't be impossible to come up with something reasonably practical though, you could allocate the appropriate number of criticals to the side torsos as well, giving you up to 3x400 rating standard engines for a maximum of W3/R5, dropping to W2/R3 then W1/R2 if one or two of the engines are taken out. I don't think you'd need separate gyros, but you need to allocate the appropriate tonnage for the equivalent of a 1,200 rating engine.
My next thought is to use Battletech rules but not all the build restrictions - so I might just give a Knight or a Warhound a speed wihout cross refencing the engine size.
So from Imperial armour I know its 400 tons with a top speed (off road) of 42kph - can base it around that.
Mr Morden wrote: My next thought is to use Battletech rules but not all the build restrictions - so I might just give a Knight or a Warhound a speed wihout cross refencing the engine size.
I'd have some reservations about that approach since the engine size dictates its tonnage, which in turn dictates how much tonnage you have spare for armour and weapons, it's a pretty central part of the construction rules. I appreciate that going over 100 tonnes such as for light Titans would mean making compromises (For example, mounting multiple engines), especially if you're having to invent some weapons and equipment, but it is a balancing mechanic for construction.
So from Imperial armour I know its 400 tons with a top speed (off road) of 42kph - can base it around that.
So something like this:
Spoiler:
It's tricky to gauge the speed since in Battletech there's no difference for mechs in terms of road or cross-country speed on the flat and in the open, in fact considering you have to take piloting skill checks for turning on roads and pavements when running the two are probably roughly equal in many circumstances. I'd probably equate that figure as a W3/R5 personally, but there's not a lot in it.
I personally think you need to make the weapons far more effective, both in terms of range and damage. Assuming a one-on-one engagement, even with a maximum run of 6, they're going to take forever to get into effective range, anything beyond medium range you're probably looking at an 11 or 12 or more (in other words impossible) to hit roll on 2D6 and at medium range you're probably usually not looking at much better than around a 25% hit probability, Extreme range you'll never use outside of against an immobilised target or having a super-elite pilot. The alternative is to lower the base To Hit number, but then you'll start running into actual or effective auto-hits at close range.
I'd personally give the Melta the range profile of at least a Clan small pulse laser or Inner Sphere medium and make the Thermal cannon more like an Inner Sphere Large Laser, also increase the damage for your weapons by at least 50%, otherwise the likelihood is they're going to struggle to even wear down the Ion shield never mind actually punch through it and start damaging the armour unless they're practically toe to toe. It may been necessary to increase the heat a little too, as it stands that Knight will normally be running pretty cool. I also think they should probably take up more criticals, a single critical is usually a small, compact secondary weapon on a 75 tonner, a main armament that sort of size of the Thermal Cannon should probably be somewhere around 3-5 criticals IMO, partly because unlike most heavy Battlemechs these are only mounting three weapons rather than potentially half a dozen or more plus other equipment, so you've got to have something to fill up what will be an otherwise very empty record sheet.
At a rough back-of-an-envelope type calculation, after engine/cockpit/gyro/internal structure you'd have something over 50 tonnes available for other equipment of which a fraction under 24 would be taken up with armour leaving you roughly 28 tonnes free for weapons. The Reaper as it stands would be less effective than a Battletech Hatchet or even just a kick, I'd be inclined to give it about 20-25 damage for about 7 tonnes and 4 or 5 criticals. I'd suggest around the same tonnage for the Thermal Cannon and a tonne or two for the MG plus ammo or Melta. Even allowing a few tonnes for the Ion shield this would leave roughly enough tonnage free to drop the XL Engine down to a standard engine or add quite a few more heat-sinks. (Edit, just noticed that you didn't mention XL engines here, for some reason I was sure you did.)
I think you’re putting too many points in the ion shield. Personally, I’d put it at 10 points, 15 at the most. As for coverage, it should be something like, “pick a hexside. The ion shield protect from that facing and each adjacent facing (3 hexsides total).
Assuming that the weapons are upgraded I think the Ion shield should be fine, the problem with it as it is there is that at 2 or 3 hexes range a pair of Knights could blast away at each other more or less indefinitely and they'd hardly ever get past the shield. Increasing the weapon's strength deals with that, plus even ignoring the shield for a moment, with a single main weapon system like this you need it to be doing a lot of damage when it hits otherwise realistically any game is going to drag on for far too long as opponents very slowly chip away at each other. The cannon as listed gives roughly the equivalent damage of a single short ranged AC-10 or AC-5 (Depending on whether you're hitting at short or medium+ range), which is very under-armed for something at the top of the Heavy class.
It depends really - those stats would encourage a far more mobile form of play and make players want to flank the enemy to gain the most of things. If you include other combat vehicles into the mix then it could be a spicy situation with the Knights trying to keep the enemy knights in their shield arc whilst avoid being shredded by the smaller units.
And of course artillery would wreak havoc as well.
Mr Morden wrote: My next thought is to use Battletech rules but not all the build restrictions - so I might just give a Knight or a Warhound a speed wihout cross refencing the engine size.
I'd have some reservations about that approach since the engine size dictates its tonnage, which in turn dictates how much tonnage you have spare for armour and weapons, it's a pretty central part of the construction rules. I appreciate that going over 100 tonnes such as for light Titans would mean making compromises (For example, mounting multiple engines), especially if you're having to invent some weapons and equipment, but it is a balancing mechanic for construction.
So from Imperial armour I know its 400 tons with a top speed (off road) of 42kph - can base it around that.
So something like this:
Spoiler:
It's tricky to gauge the speed since in Battletech there's no difference for mechs in terms of road or cross-country speed on the flat and in the open, in fact considering you have to take piloting skill checks for turning on roads and pavements when running the two are probably roughly equal in many circumstances. I'd probably equate that figure as a W3/R5 personally, but there's not a lot in it.
I personally think you need to make the weapons far more effective, both in terms of range and damage. Assuming a one-on-one engagement, even with a maximum run of 6, they're going to take forever to get into effective range, anything beyond medium range you're probably looking at an 11 or 12 or more (in other words impossible) to hit roll on 2D6 and at medium range you're probably usually not looking at much better than around a 25% hit probability, Extreme range you'll never use outside of against an immobilised target or having a super-elite pilot. The alternative is to lower the base To Hit number, but then you'll start running into actual or effective auto-hits at close range.
I'd personally give the Melta the range profile of at least a Clan small pulse laser or Inner Sphere medium and make the Thermal cannon more like an Inner Sphere Large Laser, also increase the damage for your weapons by at least 50%, otherwise the likelihood is they're going to struggle to even wear down the Ion shield never mind actually punch through it and start damaging the armour unless they're practically toe to toe. It may been necessary to increase the heat a little too, as it stands that Knight will normally be running pretty cool. I also think they should probably take up more criticals, a single critical is usually a small, compact secondary weapon on a 75 tonner, a main armament that sort of size of the Thermal Cannon should probably be somewhere around 3-5 criticals IMO, partly because unlike most heavy Battlemechs these are only mounting three weapons rather than potentially half a dozen or more plus other equipment, so you've got to have something to fill up what will be an otherwise very empty record sheet.
At a rough back-of-an-envelope type calculation, after engine/cockpit/gyro/internal structure you'd have something over 50 tonnes available for other equipment of which a fraction under 24 would be taken up with armour leaving you roughly 28 tonnes free for weapons. The Reaper as it stands would be less effective than a Battletech Hatchet or even just a kick, I'd be inclined to give it about 20-25 damage for about 7 tonnes and 4 or 5 criticals. I'd suggest around the same tonnage for the Thermal Cannon and a tonne or two for the MG plus ammo or Melta. Even allowing a few tonnes for the Ion shield this would leave roughly enough tonnage free to drop the XL Engine down to a standard engine or add quite a few more heat-sinks. (Edit, just noticed that you didn't mention XL engines here, for some reason I was sure you did.)
Thanks for that - really helpful and useful. Will have a bit of a play when I have time
Just pulled out Battletech over the weekend and had a go with a friend. Used my old copy of Heavymetal Pro to print out the mechs and laminate them. Ended up with a fight between a Battlemaster & Locust vs. Phoenix Hawk and Griffin.
The Locust did the 1,000 yard sprint and died when the Phoenix Hawk shot it dead center with a single ER Large laser. The Battlemaster gave a good show, took a pounding, including two head hits, a DFA from the Phoenix Hawk and a hip critical but kept fighting on. The Battlemaster finally died to a head shot from behind by the Phoenix Hawk. But I had the Griffin sweating - literally; it was on 13 on the heat scale (and rising), out of LRM's and no armor remaining in any location.
Got a few rules wrong (hey, it was around 1995 since the last time I played), but had great fun and would certainly like to do it again.
So I saw this game for the first time today at a local game store. It looked cool and they were playing the Alpha Strike rules. I bought a Command, Recon, and Battle Lance $30. Pretty low buy in.
Phobos wrote: So I saw this game for the first time today at a local game store. It looked cool and they were playing the Alpha Strike rules. I bought a Command, Recon, and Battle Lance $30. Pretty low buy in.
Yeah, that's a good start. I wouldn't worry about limiting what you use to the models in your collection, just run assault models as assaults, heavies as heavies, ect. Just write a note on the cards or record sheets for what each model is.
OK WTF is wrong with the company making this game? All the boxes are out of stock everywhere along with the main rulebook. Some quick googling seems to be this is par for the course.
Phobos wrote: OK WTF is wrong with the company making this game? All the boxes are out of stock everywhere along with the main rulebook. Some quick googling seems to be this is par for the course.
A long history of lawsuits and threat of lawsuits from a company that only knows how to sue.
Phobos wrote: OK WTF is wrong with the company making this game? All the boxes are out of stock everywhere along with the main rulebook. Some quick googling seems to be this is par for the course.
A long history of lawsuits and threat of lawsuits from a company that only knows how to sue.
Namely, Harmony Gold.
But regarding their stock issues, that has nothing to do with HG and everything to do with them being kind of screwups.
Phobos wrote: OK WTF is wrong with the company making this game? All the boxes are out of stock everywhere along with the main rulebook. Some quick googling seems to be this is par for the course.
A long history of lawsuits and threat of lawsuits from a company that only knows how to sue.
Namely, Harmony Gold.
But regarding their stock issues, that has nothing to do with HG and everything to do with them being kind of screwups.
-= Edited to remove swearing - Lorek
Merely recognizing the fact that the long history has lead to certain corporate types being a little... shy when it comes to doing proper releases.
Phobos wrote: OK WTF is wrong with the company making this game? All the boxes are out of stock everywhere along with the main rulebook. Some quick googling seems to be this is par for the course.
Good news, the new intro boxes (yes, 2 of them) are coming out in a couple of months.
Phobos wrote: OK WTF is wrong with the company making this game? All the boxes are out of stock everywhere along with the main rulebook. Some quick googling seems to be this is par for the course.
Good news, the new intro boxes (yes, 2 of them) are coming out in a couple of months.
So, I brought my B.Tech stuff back to Japan after a visit to my mom.
Can't wait to add painting them to my list of projects. Also hoping my regular 40K opponent would be willing to try either BTech or Alpha strike at some point.
On a separate note, I have a handful of clan mechs. The Summoner and Hellbringer from the original starter box, the city tech mechs (which are tiny...) [Uller, Nova, Timberwolf, Dire Wolf], and a metal Maurader IIC my store just happened to have a blister of. Looking at making a Coyote star with them.
I know that they tend towards heavier designs, and that they use the Hellbringer rather heavily, so I'm looking at: Hellbringer, Summoner, Timberwolf, Dire Wolf, Maurader IIC.
The Uller and Nova would also be painted Coyote, but would be part of a separate future star.
I've used infantry before a few times. A couple of hovertruck mounted here and there. I've wanted to use a larger force, with towed guns, but haven't had the opportunity.
My first mech kill ever in B-Tech was with infantry. A damaged LRM infantry unit got a luck shot and killed an awesome pilot from across the board. Ended up with a mech that had only taken 1 damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking over camospecs, I really like the Zeta Galaxy scheme.
I used it all the time, personally. Cheap and surprisingly tanky, so you could defend the backfield with them (and still hurt stuff with mortars or field guns).
Plus, they give the game the proper feel of scale.
I haven't used infantry with all of the more recent options, but the bog standard SRM infantry would ruin `Mechs and vehicles with ease. I love playing Citytech and hiding infantry in multi-story buildings.
)
. That said, even a humble Locust LCT-1E gets hot if it shoots repeatedly (2MLs and 2SLs).
Narrowly avoided a reactor failure, shut down for a turn then managed to restart before the other side managed to get to me. 
). As the destroids are also not very big, they look quite well side by side:
