Do they even have the time or the money to make that investment, though?

is it even worth it to make that investment? As with plastics you have to order large quantities and then have a large enough warehouse to store the product. Right now they just cast on demand and their resin is really nice atm and I don't generally care for resin.

Infinity is doing quite well and they only use plastics in the Arestiea! bordgame line. I know HIPS is seen as peek model material but I don't believe that's always the case as there's lots of trade off for having it. Though I do think it is the best for things like warjacks and the like.

A lot of their stuff doesn't translate to HIPS very well. The complex, muscular "skipped leg day" look is really hard to do in HIPs and a lot of their steampunky bits of detail require a lot of extra parts to work. I think what likely really killed their foray into HIPs was the Hydra. That thing was sculpted by people used to the limitations of resin and completely did not work in HIPs at all.

they just recently released alt-sculpts of the battle box casters, which maybe supports not producing the not so great plastic battle boxes any more
the resin they use these days is pretty ace though, as others have mentioned

deleted

 LunarSol wrote:
A lot of their stuff doesn't translate to HIPS very well. The complex, muscular "skipped leg day" look is really hard to do in HIPs and a lot of their steampunky bits of detail require a lot of extra parts to work. I think what likely really killed their foray into HIPs was the Hydra. That thing was sculpted by people used to the limitations of resin and completely did not work in HIPs at all.

ya. I have that Hydra and I'm not dedicated enough to assemble it. Got it during one of the blind box deals.

Is the kit that bad to build?
The one I've painted was already assembled when it was passed along

My friend threw his against the wall in rage.
Quit Skorne the day after,

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Bringing this back towards PP, I have heard recently that they may have had a break up with their Chinese manufacturers, and that said manufacturers may even be keeping the molds. Just a rumor, but serious if even partly true.

I remember reading that on the WM/H reddit like - 2+ years ago. Is why PP completely stopped with plastic releases after the Grymkin.

greenskin lynn wrote:Is the kit that bad to build?
The one I've painted was already assembled when it was passed along

That's the one! Basically, the actual serpents are a mess of plates that try to fit together to keep the texture while adhering to undercut limitation. Then a bunch of the little bug feet have to be glued on separately.

Mr. Grey wrote:
Was it the Hydra where was one side was basically completely soft looking, washed out details and when players complained, PP basically shrugged and went "Yep that's totally how it's supposed to look"?

My understanding on the whole issue is that it's less "how it was supposed to look" and more of a "we tried and this is the best we could do". The model was delayed for years and from what I've heard, it was largely because they sent the resin master to their manufacturer who couldn't find a way to translate it to HIPs and kept sending even more complicated builds that sacrificed major details to work. The final product was more of a cut our loses compromise and the vibe I've got talking about it is that the people at PP themselves are probably more disappointed than anybody. Of course, that doesn't really help when people were unhappy with the final product. I don't blame anyone for taking the statement "this is what the final product looks like" the way they did. "It is what it is" is just a sucky answer for both sides, but sometimes its all there is to say about it.

It's worth noting that there's a lot to unpack around this moment in time. It's really where PP recognized that the 3rd party manufacturing was really impacting their marketing. It's the most obvious failure, but hardly alone. The HIPs colossals met with huge delays as well as did several waves of plastic jack kits. In Khador in particular, it really stood out as the plastic kits for things like the Spriggan, Rager, and Grolar took years after they were first announced. It's particularly interesting that Skorne seems to have had a planned wave of construct warbeasts in the pipeline that clearly fizzled out somewhere as the relationship with the manufacturer degraded. Certainly something interesting to unpack.

I do also wonder how Asmodee fits into all of this. PP is thanked in the front page of the Marvel manual and the game was basically made by PPs dev team at the time. I'm curious if they were trying to work out a deal where Asmodee started producing HIPs for them. It would certainly fit with the rest of what I've seen, particularly if it didn't work out because Asmodee either sought to acquire PP or expected some ownership rights to the brand as part of the deal.

deleted

PP definitely didn't have the experience with the material. Some of it is just the strengths and weaknesses of HIPs itself. GW is a master of the stuff, but its worth noting they've shaped their art style around it for over a decade now. They've gotten VERY good at making things feel big while actually being rather thin. PPs art style largely doesn't fit within these limitations outside of some of machinery. The jack kits are great (if a little full of tiny parts) but I can definitely see where a lot of the line really struggles to translate.

As for Atomic Mass; it's hard to say. I think if it was an under the table deal we wouldn't see PP credited officially. Feels more like there was something in the works, like PP was contracted to develop the game, but for some reason things fell through and it became easier to just buy the employees working on it rather than compromise on some aspect of the deal. Really hard to say with what we know, but I'm sure its an interesting story.

Google Trends are, in my opinion, the best way to evaluate relative interest for miniature games, probably better than ICV2's top 5 lists. It is not 100% comparable between games, as searching for some games will not produce the "Game" tag. Those you don't have the tag will be either overrepresented or underrepresented.

When you look at the long term statistics they very much resemble the general interest I have perceived from 2004 on.

Is it a fair comparison with GW though? Given the massive amount of licensed games (some of which have an extremely large following) and LotR being LotR.

You search for the individual games, but indeed AoS/40k/WHFB will be somewhat inflated by the licencing. Not massively, though. 40k (but not AOS) has a "game" category that filters out licences and just measures searches related to the tabletop game.

(edit) The big player is clearly GW. And we seem to mainly be talking 40k. It is just massively bigger than any other game, even if you try to filter out the licences. But even AoS seems to be bigger than any of the competition, possibly excepting SW Legion. AOS seems slightly smaller than WM and H were combined at their peak. The Star Wars licences are kind of odd because they have a customer base in addition to the established miniature gamer community, so I suspect sales there are better than we see when searching for games - they

Another good source for comparison is the ICV2 internal correspondence (which does qualitative interviews with store owners, not actual statistics, for their "top 5 non-collectible miniature games" lists), although they have a discrepancy with google trends when it comes to AOS. AOS seems to be much more popular in stores than SW Legion and some brands I don't know much about, like Wizkids D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis, that barely show up on google trends. This probably shows that a lot of sales are shifting away from stores for the smaller companies that doesn't have their own distribution (Wizkid, afaik, uses Topps' own distribution). The Fall 2020 top five are 40k, Nolzur's, MCP, SW Legiona and AOS - all games with their own distribution network. There hasn't been a game that uses regular distribution on that list since mid-2018. WMH fell off in the fall of 2018, when it was just undergoing its next to last interest peak on trends (the big interest peaks the last five years were 2016, with smaller ones spring 2018 and 2019. This corresponds well with when the distribution crisis began and we really started having trouble getting product in Europe.

That's super interesting. I had heard a lot about how big of a problem the distribution issues were for PP, but that really highlights them in a way I hadn't seen. Thanks.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
some brands I don't know much about, like Wizkids D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis, that barely show up on google trends.

The Wizkids stuff is not associated with a minis wargame specifically; they're mainly for use in RPGs (though I'm sure lots of folks also use them from Frostgrave and generic fantasy wargames), so probably why it's hard to find a trend thingie on them.

 Valander wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
some brands I don't know much about, like Wizkids D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis, that barely show up on google trends.

The Wizkids stuff is not associated with a minis wargame specifically; they're mainly for use in RPGs (though I'm sure lots of folks also use them from Frostgrave and generic fantasy wargames), so probably why it's hard to find a trend thingie on them.

yep. They're not a wargame and honestly I would think outsell 40k due to the current popularity of D&D over the past few years.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 Valander wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
some brands I don't know much about, like Wizkids D&D Nolzur's Marvelous Minis, that barely show up on google trends.

The Wizkids stuff is not associated with a minis wargame specifically; they're mainly for use in RPGs (though I'm sure lots of folks also use them from Frostgrave and generic fantasy wargames), so probably why it's hard to find a trend thingie on them.

yep. They're not a wargame and honestly I would think outsell 40k due to the current popularity of D&D over the past few years.

I think the only reason they don't outsell, at least based on dollar value, is because of both the much lower price point of the Wizkid SKUs individually (especially in comparison to GW), and the general RPGer not buying the same number of models that might be for your average 40k player. Would be interesting to see somewhere just a count of units sold, but I don't think that's how ICV2 calculates their "best selling". I could be wrong, though.

@Congoboy very interesting, thank you for the information and explanation.

@Monkeysloth depends on how we define sales, in terms of number of items maybe in some communities but in terms of money spent noooooo.

ICV2's "best selling" list is simply based on asking the stores -"what do you sell the most of"? At least that is what I was able to read out of them.

Recent editions of D&D getting so heavily into miniatures is a really good thing for the miniature gaming scene in general. It exposes a large group of people with very little experience with miniatures to them - even the norwegian RPG scene seems to be embracing miniatures if the establishment of 3d print shops that licence fantasy miniatures are anything to go by. And NOBODY played with miniatures before the last couple of D&D editions.

 greenskin lynn wrote:
they just recently released alt-sculpts of the battle box casters, which maybe supports not producing the not so great plastic battle boxes any more
the resin they use these days is pretty ace though, as others have mentioned

Ya, Monpoc sculpts are great and I was putting together a Reliant from a Reliant/Stormclad kit and the plastic was really great. Reminded me of Malifaux - 40k stuff.

I think their best bet is just do what make sense and is cost effective rather than one material and process.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
ICV2's "best selling" list is simply based on asking the stores -"what do you sell the most of"? At least that is what I was able to read out of them.

Recent editions of D&D getting so heavily into miniatures is a really good thing for the miniature gaming scene in general. It exposes a large group of people with very little experience with miniatures to them - even the norwegian RPG scene seems to be embracing miniatures if the establishment of 3d print shops that licence fantasy miniatures are anything to go by. And NOBODY played with miniatures before the last couple of D&D editions.

There was already a sizeable market for RPG miniatures, that is basically what Reaper does after all. It has simply grown in proportion to the increased popularity of DnD. However, I think having a bunch of 28mm figures providing quality of a similar level of PP for a third the price or less is hurting them more than helping them. It makes people realize just how expensive wargames minis are. GW gets away with it from popularity inertia, PP can't.

PP has enough miniatures that aren’t easy to get good third party replacements for, so I am unsure if that is as big a problem as you’d think. GW’s problem is that their style is the current generic style for a lot of models (thank you Blizzard). I saw an estimate that 3d printing is eating about $100 million off the hobby industry’s profits annually and considering how little you have to search to find legal counts-as models for their Space Marine cash cow, I imagine GW should be taking this seriously.

I'd argue that in the miniature world World of Warcraft is a lesser impact. It's simply that most game groups play 40K the world over. GW has built itself into THE market leader bar nothing else; no other firm (even PP At their best) is anywhere near the size and impact of GW.

As a result if you're new and want to sell, its much much easier to sell for the big name as counts-as models. Smaller game firms aren't worth going after; starting your own is risky - so copy-cat or make alternate designs for 40K or AoS and you've got an instant huge market.


The other big name is DnD. From what I see a huge chunk of 3D printing is copy-catting 40K or DnD designs in some form - either outright copies (which is allowable under DnD licencing rules for most, but not all - - and is not allowed for 40K); close copies/inspirations and wild outlandish ideas that at least fit the army construction style of the game.



My gut feeling is that 3d printing might well reach a glut point much more quickly than independent casting of models whereby there are big names within 3d printing that dominate and then the market has to settle and find new ideas and outlets. I'd also note that there's a good few big patreons doing totally their own thing and doing very well at it.

WoW/Starcraft doesn’t have a direct impact, but it definitely perpetuated and popularized the style. You can see the difference in D&D art before and after WoW got big. 4th edition went whole hog on the over-ornate Blizzard style that eventually took over all GW properties as well.

Oh very much agreed its had a subtle impact on changing the nature and style of fantasy artwork and depictions. It's been a huge influence over the last decade or so.

When it comes to 3d printing, my money is on it sadly devaluing the job of sculptors. It is just so (relatively) much easier to learn these days than it used to be. This also means that if a few platforms end up dominating, they will be just that - platforms. Less 3d GW and more Cults.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
When it comes to 3d printing, my money is on it sadly devaluing the job of sculptors. It is just so (relatively) much easier to learn these days than it used to be. This also means that if a few platforms end up dominating, they will be just that - platforms. Less 3d GW and more Cults.

Far as I'm aware GW has been 3D sculpting for years already.

I do agree that we will see a skill shift from physical to digital sculpting happen and that the sculpting world will go through a general digital shift much like the photography world did when digital photography rose to take dominance over film. And just like that market, the original skill won't be totally lost nor devalued. Heck even with 3D design there will still be plenty of people kit bashing with putties and tools and making dioramas and such. Heck you can also do both, the guy behind Warploque Miniatures is doing both physical and digital sculpting.

 Overread wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
When it comes to 3d printing, my money is on it sadly devaluing the job of sculptors. It is just so (relatively) much easier to learn these days than it used to be. This also means that if a few platforms end up dominating, they will be just that - platforms. Less 3d GW and more Cults.

Far as I'm aware GW has been 3D sculpting for years already.

I do agree that we will see a skill shift from physical to digital sculpting happen and that the sculpting world will go through a general digital shift much like the photography world did when digital photography rose to take dominance over film. And just like that market, the original skill won't be totally lost nor devalued. Heck even with 3D design there will still be plenty of people kit bashing with putties and tools and making dioramas and such. Heck you can also do both, the guy behind Warploque Miniatures is doing both physical and digital sculpting.

They’ve been 3d sculpting for at least 13 years by now, because the studio Taurox(? - the IG bus) had visible print lines on it and it came out in 2012 or so.

The thing is that sculpting is a bit like making computer games - there is a lot of people who want to learn to do it - and it is comparatively easier, or at least more convenient, to 3d sculpt than to sculpt in putty. Art world has already started to translate here, but in the art world, the physical sculpting or painting is valued higher in itself than physical sculpting is for miniatures - in general, people seems to love the advantages 3d sculpting has over physical sculpting, such as just blastic surfaces with all kinds of crap to make them easier to paint and making those uncanny value smoke, ghost and fire effects people seem to love. That’s why I think there are going to be a lot more digital sculptors than physical sculptors, which will devalue their labour :(

Question on WM/H Lore for a theory/Hypothesis I have:

Did the Infernals get away with Thanos-snapping half the populations souls of the world?

 The Warp Forge wrote:
Question on WM/H Lore for a theory/Hypothesis I have:

Did the Infernals get away with Thanos-snapping half the populations souls of the world?

In the Riot Quest alternate reality they did which is what created a post apocalyptical version of the Iron Kingdoms. In the Warcaster alternate reality Cyriss basically came in to save everyone by opening up a startgate (could be the core reality and just a small group of people haven't followed Warcaster too much). In the core reality they didn't but the fight was pretty devastating. I don't think there's been a big lore drop post Infernals for IK but the new RPG is starting 5 years after the war ended and things are a mess but not everything's in ruins like Riot Quest.

So their two new games are alternate sequels to their core game that has yet to see an update?

Pretty much but I think they're going to start back up the Warmachine story line this (virtual) Locked and Loaded as I think the RPG PDFs will all be delivered by then, which is basically the new updated fluff book, and Warcaster and Riot Quest have had the focus that new games need.

Plus they have said this:

But 2021 isn’t just about new models. We’ll also be seeing the return and conclusion of the portentous Henge Hold Scroll, which will once-and-for-all detail the conclusion of the Oblivion story arc and set the stage for the next epic chapter in the ongoing saga of the Iron Kingdoms…

When Privateer announced the Oblivion story line people were freaking out that PP was going to pull a GW and blow everything up and reboot completely. Privateer quelled the fears by saying that they were going to explore outcomes via new games in alternate realities but not do away with the Iron Kingdoms Old World style.

not so much an alt reality for warcaster i think. It is more of what happened thousands of years down the line after people fled through that gate, though i guess its as good as, given the time gap and them having left the mother world.
as for the post oblivion fluff, yea 5 years later, some places have bounced back from the war with the infernals, some are husks of their past self (protectorate got wrecked)

The main question will be whether characters like Nemo jumped through the gate and don't exist post Infernals or not I suppose.

well, there were several named character deaths from what i recall, though i don't know the exact list

my impression has been it was a "shove the civilians through" type deal, with maybe some named character solo level people going with them, i'd expect warcaster level people to be stuck staying to fight on

as for nemo you mentioned, going by the last model of him that came out, he's basically a ghost in the machine, yes

Right, but he leads the voyage to the stars and is still around in the Warcaster timeline. The question is more whether he's still around on Caene after the invasion in whatever the new continuity is.

Definitely a lot of major deaths in the scrolls. Some of them bafflingly recent releases. A bit of clearly of the board to focus on specific Warcasters would be great for the game, but I'm really not sure what they've got in mind going forward.

ah, wasn't aware he was around in the warcaster fluff, just knew that that one goddess was mentioned

As for killing characters off, i guess it gives them a solid reason to avoid making version 2/3/4 whatevers of them

If they're smart they'll use oblivion to start up a restricted and unrestricted lists.

 LunarSol wrote:
Right, but he leads the voyage to the stars and is still around in the Warcaster timeline. The question is more whether he's still around on Caene after the invasion in whatever the new continuity is.

Definitely a lot of major deaths in the scrolls. Some of them bafflingly recent releases. A bit of clearly of the board to focus on specific Warcasters would be great for the game, but I'm really not sure what they've got in mind going forward.

In regards to the main timeline, I think you answered it. Nemo a Cyriss-bot is gone. He left through the Hengehold gate and is now a Keeper in the Cyriss galaxy actively being hunted by the Empyreans. He is no longer connected to Caen (material world of Immoren) or Urcaen (its spiritual reflection).

As far as Riot Quest goes it is only one of the alternative timelines. Grind is in an alternative timeline as well. The failed timeline does indicate that the Infernals (as inhabitants of the spiritual reflection of the space between celestiasl object and atoms) messed up the fabric of Caen and Urcaen when they were successful. This is why teleportation (an extremely difficult and risky business in the main timeline) is common in the Riot Quest timeline.

This is why portals to places within the world are common but occassionally stuff from the Grind universe teleports in or inhabitants Sliders for a limited time into the main timeline. I wouldn't be surprised if MonPoc or Level 7 stuff jumps in randomly, totally confused.

I didn't know Grind was an alternate reality too. I bought a copy years ago for like $20 but never bothered to read anything about it as I was just wanting cheap warjacks for the RPG.

I will also assume Extreme Colossal Wrestling is in another timeline. Or possibly in the Grind one

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I will also assume Extreme Colossal Wrestling is in another timeline. Or possibly in the Grind one

There's also the bodger games in general. I wonder what world High Command lives in?

LunarSol wrote:

There's also the bodger games in general. I wonder what world High Command lives in?

The one where DC didn't misjudge the end of the LCG craze?

I still enjoy HC now and then.

The real sin of High Command in my mind was just that the objective deck failed to drive engagement. I've heard they fixed it rather quickly, but no one around here gave it a chance after a few games.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I didn't know Grind was an alternate reality too. I bought a copy years ago for like $20 but never bothered to read anything about it as I was just wanting cheap warjacks for the RPG.

It is recent dev. The NQ Prime with the updated Grind rules points it out. Instead of conflict, most minor political squabbles are settled by Grind matches post Orgroth invasion. Imagine, instead of 5 Star Syndicate and mercs being the driving force in the Thousand Cities era for negotiating conflict, it was Grind. RQ expansion put some more meat on it. Since the fabric of the RQ timeline is thin, Riot Quest stuff just appears out of nowhere, leaving everyone confused. Leaves some questions on what the Oblivion event looks like in Grind, since Grind matches are such a cultural milestone for the continent. Did Infernals take part in a match for human souls rather than a Culling as we know it? Did they win or lose?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LunarSol wrote:
The real sin of High Command in my mind was just that the objective deck failed to drive engagement. I've heard they fixed it rather quickly, but no one around here gave it a chance after a few games.

True, the game was pretty stale until Castle of the Keys and Invasion of Sul. I still think that if PP, KS started that project and made it like HearthStone or Magic's card video game, it would be alot of fun. The cards are already there, I am sure people would back, and unlike their previous attempt it is not something they have to over promise on. Most of the cards are there and what a neat way to introduce lore and timelines to people who aren't into wargaming at all with expansons beyond Castle of the Keys and Invasion of Sul.

It could be a great platform to diversify PP outside of miniatures and relying on SKU bloat.

Irritatingly, I donated Castle of the Keys as a tournament prize once and never managed to get another copy.

marxlives wrote:
I still think that if PP, KS started that project and made it like HearthStone or Magic's card video game, it would be alot of fun. The cards are already there, I am sure people would back, and unlike their previous attempt it is not something they have to over promise on. Most of the cards are there and what a neat way to introduce lore and timelines to people who aren't into wargaming at all with expansons beyond Castle of the Keys and Invasion of Sul.

I'd be game. All the MTG hype this last year has me contemplating CCGs again, and even considering digital versions, something I've consistently scoffed at in the past. Plus would be nice to interact with the Iron Kingdoms more often / on a wider scale.

Meh. All I've learned from card games is that if it isn't the big three it will die and quickly leave one with no community to play with. I mean there are still games I am happy to have bought product for and had the fun I did. But with time/energy being the limiting factor for me at this point in my life I'd prefer to devote my efforts towards things with more lifespan. I think there are a lot of people put there with the same mindset.

But if they could channel card game success back towards warmahordes it could work long term I think. IMO PP will live or die with warmahordes and if they can't pull what they have learned from the past and from other games it will just be a long slide into oblivion.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

marxlives wrote:
I still think that if PP, KS started that project and made it like HearthStone or Magic's card video game, it would be alot of fun. The cards are already there, I am sure people would back, and unlike their previous attempt it is not something they have to over promise on. Most of the cards are there and what a neat way to introduce lore and timelines to people who aren't into wargaming at all with expansons beyond Castle of the Keys and Invasion of Sul.

I'd be game. All the MTG hype this last year has me contemplating CCGs again, and even considering digital versions, something I've consistently scoffed at in the past. Plus would be nice to interact with the Iron Kingdoms more often / on a wider scale.

Digital version would be better than a physical version, in that with a physical you are competing with MTG, retailers who want to carry, etc. More digital products puts PP IP outside of the hobby store ecosystem. Which has allowed BattleTech to exist forever, no matter what goes on at the hobby store level.

Brawlmachine update 1 is live!

Jaden walks through the first update to the Brawlmachine format, including links to the documents themselves and a change log. We’ve rearranged a scenario, added two new scenarios, taken models off of the epic list, put models on the epic list, and more! Come check out the latest and greatest edition of the format everyone’s talking about!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/5/28/brawlmachine-11

 LunarSol wrote:
Right, but he leads the voyage to the stars and is still around in the Warcaster timeline. The question is more whether he's still around on Caene after the invasion in whatever the new continuity is.

Definitely a lot of major deaths in the scrolls. Some of them bafflingly recent releases. A bit of clearly of the board to focus on specific Warcasters would be great for the game, but I'm really not sure what they've got in mind going forward.

I don't think we're going to see new continuity until there's an MK4. Even then, it might still exist in the weirdly vague purgatory of a setting where you can take things like Young Severius up against the Infernals, so between things like that and characters who snuffed it during Oblivion, I doubt they care much anymore for consistency in matches.

Monsterpocalypse of this Saturday at Game Vault and Brawlmachine/Riot Quest at Military Gamer Supply 1st Friday of June. If anyone is interested in trying a 25pt format there is a spring cleaning sale going on and a great chance for buying a force. https://store.privateerpress.com/spring-cleaning-mystery-box-2021/?utm_source=hootsuite&utm_medium=&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=MB_SC_1


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Brawlmachine update 1 is live!

Jaden walks through the first update to the Brawlmachine format, including links to the documents themselves and a change log. We’ve rearranged a scenario, added two new scenarios, taken models off of the epic list, put models on the epic list, and more! Come check out the latest and greatest edition of the format everyone’s talking about!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/5/28/brawlmachine-11

Very cool. I may or may not be a patreon!

deleted

No.

For nearly twenty years, one of the most frequently touted pluses of wmh was the plot moving forward - that 'the story advances, and it's not perpetually stuck at minutes to midnight like 40k is'.

Wmh and pp have many issues. Moving the plot forward isn't one of them.

If anything, everything they did to close out mk2 with the end of the vinter/caine/magnus/King Julian story with the evolving plot was pretty damn epic.

Everything they did to reset it back to how it was, like khador retreating back to their old borders after seizing llael and a chunk of cygnar, and torul finslly stirring after millenia to... only go back to brooding within an hour or so...that was what was poor.

I like having a setting that moves forward, but it doesn't need to move forward rapidly. Not every release has to add to the front end of the story; it can expand what is there, what has happened in the past, and so on. Still, I remember in the days of early WMH having a story that moved things forward was a big draw. Getting story-advanced versions of characters was a lot of fun.

Deadnight wrote:
No.

For nearly twenty years, one of the most frequently touted pluses of wmh was the plot moving forward - that 'the story advances, and it's not perpetually stuck at minutes to midnight like 40k is'.

Wmh and pp have many issues. Moving the plot forward isn't one of them.

If anything, everything they did to close out mk2 with the end of the vinter/caine/magnus/King Julian story with the evolving plot was pretty damn epic.

Everything they did to reset it back to how it was, like khador retreating back to their old borders after seizing llael and a chunk of cygnar, and torul finslly stirring after millenia to... only go back to brooding within an hour or so...that was what was poor.

The setting of Requiem makes me doubt they've plans to move it forward much, if at all. The titular Kingdoms are outwardly at peace, albeit eyeing one another warily with actions against one another being very much cloak and dagger, the Protectorate of Menoth is pretty much gone and other than Cygnar and Rhul few of the nations seem to be in a position to really start a war again anytime soon.

Of course they could handwave Requiem into being it's own AU like Riot Quest or timeskip another few years, but I doubt it.

Arbitrator 795394 11135906 wrote:
The setting of Requiem makes me doubt they've plans to move it forward much, if at all. The titular Kingdoms are outwardly at peace, albeit eyeing one another warily with actions against one another being very much cloak and dagger, the Protectorate of Menoth is pretty much gone and other than Cygnar and Rhul few of the nations seem to be in a position to really start a war again anytime soon.

Of course they could handwave Requiem into being it's own AU like Riot Quest or timeskip another few years, but I doubt it.

Requiem is the new rpg, right?

I'll seriously have to look into that when it's out.

Backers have all the PDFs so I wouldn't be surprised to see them pop up sometime this summer for sale (make with virtual locked and loaded).

 Mr. Grey wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Right, but he leads the voyage to the stars and is still around in the Warcaster timeline. The question is more whether he's still around on Caene after the invasion in whatever the new continuity is.

Definitely a lot of major deaths in the scrolls. Some of them bafflingly recent releases. A bit of clearly of the board to focus on specific Warcasters would be great for the game, but I'm really not sure what they've got in mind going forward.

I don't think we're going to see new continuity until there's an MK4. Even then, it might still exist in the weirdly vague purgatory of a setting where you can take things like Young Severius up against the Infernals, so between things like that and characters who snuffed it during Oblivion, I doubt they care much anymore for consistency in matches.

On this note, and this just occurred to me spur of the moment, but maybe I'm thinking that keeping the setting somewhat closer to "stalemate of war" could have been a better option than a continually advancing timeline? Think closer to Warhammer 40K, which for a very, very, very long time was set at "two minutes to midnight" in the setting, where everything was stagnant and not much happened in the overall storyline. Maybe PP could have kept the Iron Kingdoms just post Khador invasion of Llael for a few years of expansions. As someone who hasn't played in a while, it feels like the last couple years of storyline were a super fast rollercoaster of apocalyptic events all happening at the same time.

WMH right now seems a lot like there's a "where do we go from here in terms of narrative" situation.

I am a IKRPG 5e backer. Narrative situation is fine. Still alot to move forward besides the grand conflicts that buitl up to Oblivion. I really don't know the worth of ANY IP imitating 40k as a success stategy. Why not play 40k or it's 2 minutes to minute fantasy alt AoS?

Even Mantic doesn't attempt that, and almost all of their forces can be 40k/WHFB-AoS proxies. Room in the industry as enough for a Pepsi or even a RC, don't see the real value long term in aspiring to be Shur Shine Value Brand Cola.

The biggest thing PP needs moving forward into next year is a diverse profolio. Some digital reiteration of MonPoc, Riot Quest, High Command, etc. Wouldn't be a bad idea for the to substack their own fiction too.

deleted

 Mr. Grey wrote:

The biggest thing PP needs moving forward into next year is a diverse profolio. Some digital reiteration of MonPoc, Riot Quest, High Command, etc. Wouldn't be a bad idea for the to substack their own fiction too.

Digital reiteration? Who's gonna handle that? PP doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to digital versions of their games, and any sort of development in that direction probably takes more funding than they have at the moment.

As for fiction... didn't they kill their line of novels/publishing arm because nobody was buying said novels?

I could easily be misremembering, but i wanna say the person that was in charge of the publishing left or changed positions or something and they didn't have anyone else lined up/ready to take over properly/in the way they wanted

One thing I think they need an overhaul of their style. When Miniature Market put a ton of their stuff on clearance a few years back followed by them doing the same thing where most deals
were about 40% of the cost, that put most players flush with about everything they needed with limited people really buying the newer stuff. When they had the loot box type releases that were Conan
and other styles of miniatures I hoped that was a way to bring in extra money to help get back on their feet. But months of game shops closed with no gaming didn't help them any.
As mentioned PP needs to change up their sculpting style like the new GW Soulblight, it has enough look for the style but good enough to be put in any tabletop game or RPG miniature.

My personal feeling is what can they do to bring back the players they lost in the past few years. Without players spreading the gospel and bring more interest to the game they have only trouble ahead.

 greenskin lynn wrote:

 Mr. Grey wrote:

The biggest thing PP needs moving forward into next year is a diverse profolio. Some digital reiteration of MonPoc, Riot Quest, High Command, etc. Wouldn't be a bad idea for the to substack their own fiction too.

Digital reiteration? Who's gonna handle that? PP doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to digital versions of their games, and any sort of development in that direction probably takes more funding than they have at the moment.

As for fiction... didn't they kill their line of novels/publishing arm because nobody was buying said novels?

I could easily be misremembering, but i wanna say the person that was in charge of the publishing left or changed positions or something and they didn't have anyone else lined up/ready to take over properly/in the way they wanted

Pretty much. Mike Ryan, the Publisher for the Skull Island Ex imprint, left and they put the No Quarter Editor in charge and he didn't have the time or desire (not sure which one really probably a mix of both as it's a lot of work) to continue Skull Island. I know several of the authors that wrote for the imprint and they pretty much said Privateer just stopped responding to them for months even though I know other books were being discussed at time time of Mike leaving. That was quite some time ago, I've not bothered to ever ask more on it as clearly nothing came of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Genoside07 wrote:

As mentioned PP needs to change up their sculpting style like the new GW Soulblight, it has enough look for the style but good enough to be put in any tabletop game or RPG miniature.

That's a pretty subjective take as obviously different people have different tastes on what they like from the minis but I don't thing anything they do is worse quality then anything the RPG manufactures are doing. Not sure I would care for the overly busy GW style they've been going with recently and likely would increase the cost of production (molds producing less and lasting longer, more parts) which wouldn't really help either.

I don't know if appealing to the general RPG crowed will get them much as their setting doesn't fit with D&D so people really aren't going to buy the majority of stuff to use for like Forgotten Realms it doesn't even fit in with Ebberon. But selling to RPG players is a big reason they have been putting out RPG books, and now a 5e version, is to appeal to people that don't already have everything they need.

 Genoside07 wrote:


My personal feeling is what can they do to bring back the players they lost in the past few years. Without players spreading the gospel and bring more interest to the game they have only trouble ahead.

Its sonetimes far more trouble to bring back old players than it is to recruit new ones, especially with a new game/ip with none of the baggage and toxicity of the old crowd.

It's a ruthless approach but from a business pov there is some merit in this perspective.

Look at gw and the Wfb crowd. They weren't buying. Wfb was dead. Whats more, they were often toxic and actively campaigned at keeping people away from the game, either directly or indirectly (perspectives on whether this was hood or bad will differ based on your pov).Gw made the decision to send it down the swans path in a blaze of glory, build a new ip, a new type of game and recruit new players, rather than cater to the old guard they saw as salty, not worth catering to or trying to appease and probably more trouble than they're worth (their opinion, imo). And look where aos is now. Still loathed by huge chunks of the old guard (and from their perspective, rightly so) but far more successful than wfb was, especially in the last few years. From gws position it was the right call.

Back at pp and wmh. To bring back the players they'd lost, or to bring in new ones, in some ways they'd have to cut loose the reality/perception of the ultra competitive and sometimes extremely toxic remnant that is still there. Maybe even move on from wmh entirely.

My flgs resorted to literally giving away over a thousand (msrp) worth of PP models because they wouldn't sell at 70% off.

Regarding advancing storyline: I think PP's error was not advancing the story, but rather advancing it into a doom spiral of ever increasing drama/scale/end times events. Instead of advancing at the lower level of specific campaigns, reversals, and character focused drama they seemed to fall into the trap of always trying to one up themselves. Everything has to be bigger! More colossal! More earth shattering!

PP surely isn't alone in making this mistake. We see it everywhere: in movies they say "After you spend 100$ million you had better be saving the world." Videogames pretty much live in this space. Serial novels and tv shows eventually start upping the external stakes to ridiculous levels.

Still, it is a mistake, and a very avoidable mistake in the wargame story world. Total capacity waxes and wanes in wars, and theaters go quiet while others heat up, but from the perspective of the characters getting shot and stabbed, it is still pretty world shattering. You can get Great Game style cold wars, shifting localized alliances changing the balance of power in a region, etc. Stories that follow a single character or group of characters that grow in power tend to need ever more terrifying enemies to feel important, but when your characters' are but a portion of the relative power levels between opposing forces, the shifting events around them drive the importance of the story.

Dialing down the world ending drama also lets you focus on updating the model lines a bit. If Cygnar has a small campaign that focuses on riflemen and trenchers, that's a good time to update their look based on them being the "new model" unit.
If you really wanted, you could use it as a method of making sub-sets of units and possibly tier lists, having restricted sets based on specific campaigns or years. I don't know that I would do that with WMH, but it is an option. Simply adding more giant models and special characters to throw into every list doesn't really help as much.

Wehrkind sums up the lore issues very well for me as well. Upping the scale of things to be bigger and bigger and world shattering is great, but it runs away with the writer so fast that eventually you hit a point where you can't really go any further.

It all gets so huge and so extreme it ends up entering the realm of being totally silly.


I also think that the more extreme, the harder it is for readers and fans to engage with it as a setting. Settings are built on the little people, the little things that build them up. On small details, smaller events and local heroes and the like. Once you focus purely on the big scale everything has to shift into that scale to retain the structure.




And at its core Warmachine was never big scale, it was always trying to be a skirmish game.



I do also think that PP hasn't got to change their style, but they do need to keep releasing models for Warmachine/Hordes and one great way is to re-release models with new designs. They've a huge backlog of models in each force now; so instead of adding to them just go back and redesign and re-release them. Heck its what GW does all the time - if you look at the core of most long term armies it hasn't changed much in 30 years even though there have been many revisions.

Some can be annoying - eg how Tyranids (and most things) have scaled up a lot, which soft forces people to update. Meanwhlie other things have hardly changed in various redesigns - marines are a great example of many different versions but broadly the same. We only get a marked change in size when Primaris hit (and I suspect were it not for Kirby style marketing, Primaris would have just straight up replaced original marine models).

deleted

I've liked the quality and some of the quirky designs they've done through mini-crate. I just don't like that sales model because its one and done. There's been one or two that I've missed that I wanted which I either didn't know about at the time or simply didn't have the money for.


They can certainly make and sell models; they just need to rebuild their distribution, outreach programs and get some fresh sculpts (resculpts and new ideas) into the market. I'd welcome things like new angleus designs in metal/resin or in high quality plastics if they can make that move.

For one, I'm really fond of the new packaging. Hopefully they start using it for WMH soon, because the stuff they cram in those old plastic blisters is kind of hilarious.

As for the story, I think the fluff is more interesting now than its really ever been, but they need to pace it better. The big problem with the fluff in MK2 is nothing really happened. Part of the problem is that this coincided with the public love affair with Game of Thrones and if you weren't mercilessly killing off every fan favorite people thought you were boring, but truthfully.... it was kind of boring. Random "fights to the death" that couldn't really resolve in death and didn't really have further stakes to make them interesting.

The actual plot of MK2 is basically.... Khador and Cygnar are still fighting, though for what purpose isn't totally clear. Cygnar is kind of taking backing Llael sort of, but there's no clear goal. Cryx puts up an underground fortress in the middle of the war for no real reason and everyone works together to drive them away.

It's honestly just stalling for time. Hordes pretty much did the same thing. The Athenc chase has more interesting twists and turns, but ultimately its not going anywhere and doesn't really lead to anything. Everything interesting that happened in the fluff happened between MK2 and MK3 in the novels, but a lot of the interest in the fluff had been lost by then.

Then MK3 makes a bunch of changes, but they didn't feel any different. Khador and Cygnar were at war. Technically Cygnar's the aggressor this time, but the fluff was so hard to follow at this point no one was really going to notice. The Infernals are probably the first time where the fluff was readily available, and the conflict felt like it had been brewing long enough to justify. It'll be interesting to see if it has any effect on the game going forward.

I'll have to dig up a summary at some point, I totally lost track a long time ago.

 Mr. Grey wrote:


I wasn't aware of that, that's a shame. Never good when a company ghosts people.


Re: sculpting and Iron Kingdoms 5e and stuff:

I think it was less Ghost people as person who was put in charge had way too much on their plate. I think it was Doug or Matt himself that finally got a hold of them.

So having a bit of free time, i figured I'd write up some of the story/fluff advancement from Requiem

Timeline has gone forward 5 years to a period of rebuilding

Cygnar
Recovering well from the oblivion crisis, has pushed forward a national policy of working together and inclusion
so they have elements of the major religions working together, whether it be for hunting the remaining infernal
presence or working with the cyrissists to push forward on updating technology to rely on storm chambers rather
then steam.
The inclusion policy has a lot more of the non-human races moving to cygnar, which doesn't always go over well
with the old citizenship. Uptake in trolls moving in larger numbers to the wooded parts of the country also
Some of the old noble families died out during the wars/crisis, so you have a growing number of new nobles being
raised, with the inherent clash of old blood and new. King is not particularly popular, but not to the extend of
trying to boot him yet.

Khador
The courts, especially at the mid/lower status level, were gutted from traitors who became infernalists as an
attempt at more power. Civil unrest in the wake, with worker strikes that have been put down violently and
aggressively. Empress has further empowered the policing power of the greylord covenant so they can more swiftly
deal with political and social unrest. Empress is pushing national pride and the idea of new military conquest
(either back to the south, or in the other continent they mention, Zu). With Vlad dead, his domain is and ancestral
home are basically unclaimed, and the child he had with the empress is expect to claim the throne

Llael
Thanks in part to troops being pulled for other theaters during the Oblivion Crisis, the resistance forces were
finally able to reclaim most of the country. Queen married a grandson of the King of Ord, but it was a political
move with the husband basically living mostly in Ord with rumored mistresses. Most of the upper class/nobles
died during the years leading up to/during the occupation. Crucible guard has returned and rebuild chapters in
the country, with the queen giving them much more leeway and influence then they have in Ord

Ord
With the third in line for the throne married to the queen of llael, its pulled the nations much closer together.
The Order of the Golden Crucible moving its headquarters to the nation means its now trading much more in
weapons and alchemical items, with the crucible guard also allowing Ord to project force farther beyond its
borders.

Protectorate of Menoth
The protectorate is gutted. Thousands went through the gate during the oblivion crisis, with thousands more who didn't
get the chance going to the continent of Zu to start over under the direction of Durant, who is now called the prophet
of menoth. Because of population shrinkage, The capital of Imer and former capital Sul are barely populated with a fraction
of what they once contained, and things strange and terrible have started in creep in to the now desolate and half-abandoned
places. Much of the remaining population has collected at Ancient Icthier, where the Visgoth worry another charismatic leading
could emerge and lead even more people away. Paranoia during and after the Crisis led to a lot of infighting, and massive losses
in, among other groups, the Vassals of menoth that dealt with warjacks, putting the current state of things as being barely able
maintain the jacks they have. All together, the Protectorate exists more on paper then anything else.

Cryx
Not a ton going on, basically downtime as they rebuild their forces, still a strong pirate presence out as sea

Rhul
Probably one of the places that did the best during the oblivion crisis. They have taken in a large number of refugees, so there
is a lot of spy vs spy and intrigue going on in the city they've settled in, not much new beyond that really that I'm seeing.

Ios
Haunted ghost forest. Nobody is coming out of the nation, and people that go in either get turned around to wander right back out,
travel for periods of time to end up nowhere, or just disappear. The ones that do wander out report being watched by, and only really
encountering, the soulless. Elves outside the nation seem to still be fine.

As for the hordes factions, that will have to wait til they put that book out, though i look forward to it

Between the Menites that fled to Zu, the Cygnarian merchant companies looking for profit, the Piracy of Cryx and Khador looking to use
war as an internal stabilizer, it feels like we will be seeing more of the continent, though its hard to say how much will be rpg and
what elements might make it to the tabletop

thoughts
It seems like they have set up to push a new generation of Warjacks and maybe storm units for Cygnar
not entirely sure for khador, though i suppose they could expand more on the different ethnic groups and perhaps on the kayazy that have
filled part of the power vacuum
Cryx, i expect we will see some sort of replacement casters to cover goreshade and gaspy working for other factions now
Menoth- personally, i would like to see new stuff to show how they've adapted to Zu and a non-oil rich environment
Ios-i wonder if it will end up tying in to something they did to try and help their gods or maybe elevate new ones.

Edit-almost forgot, airships are a thing, though based on the artwork in the book, they are massive things like flying aircraft carriers
with colossus size units looking fairly small on the decks. I look forward to someone building a board that is two of them next to each other with troops and jacks
moving across temp bridges or something for battle

 Mr. Grey wrote:

The biggest thing PP needs moving forward into next year is a diverse profolio. Some digital reiteration of MonPoc, Riot Quest, High Command, etc. Wouldn't be a bad idea for the to substack their own fiction too.

Digital reiteration? Who's gonna handle that? PP doesn't exactly have a great track record when it comes to digital versions of their games, and any sort of development in that direction probably takes more funding than they have at the moment.

As for fiction... didn't they kill their line of novels/publishing arm because nobody was buying said novels?

Doesn't mean you don't try. Tend to forget, GW released a bunch of trash games before they had a hit. From a business perspective, giving up instead of taking a situation as a lessons learned is a great way to box yourself in and fail.

As far as fiction, Substacking it is better for their indie model. PP biggest issue is that they tried to copy GW's business model. What works for GloboCorp does not work for private business.

I swear, if you are not in business or involved in any business processes, it is best to stay in your lane on some stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Genoside07 wrote:
One thing I think they need an overhaul of their style. When Miniature Market put a ton of their stuff on clearance a few years back followed by them doing the same thing where most deals
were about 40% of the cost, that put most players flush with about everything they needed with limited people really buying the newer stuff. When they had the loot box type releases that were Conan
and other styles of miniatures I hoped that was a way to bring in extra money to help get back on their feet. But months of game shops closed with no gaming didn't help them any.
As mentioned PP needs to change up their sculpting style like the new GW Soulblight, it has enough look for the style but good enough to be put in any tabletop game or RPG miniature.

My personal feeling is what can they do to bring back the players they lost in the past few years. Without players spreading the gospel and bring more interest to the game they have only trouble ahead.

PP copying GW is just not good for them. The world is only big enough for one Mantic. If they just want to be a proxy GW business, fine. But if they want to be Pepsi to GW's Coke, best to be Pepsi and embrace that. And I say that as someone who HATES Pepsi.

Even with PP not being at its highest point at the moment it is still the only company with their own IP that even competes against GW. Even on their worst day, they are pretty much the only game in town outside of Disney IPs and GW imitators.

 greenskin lynn wrote:

Edit-almost forgot, airships are a thing, though based on the artwork in the book, they are massive things like flying aircraft carriers
with colossus size units looking fairly small on the decks. I look forward to someone building a board that is two of them next to each other with troops and jacks
moving across temp bridges or something for battle

These were actually introduced in a narrative lead leading up to Lock and Load a couple years back. At Lock and Load, they built several tables of them for the finale of the league and the games played on them directly influenced the final stories of the league. Notably Stryker died bringing one down and another crashed when Lord Carver got to the helm and tried to pilot it himself. Most of the ones that survived where the craft that were used to allow everyone to flee through the gate to escape the Infernals.

Deadnight wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:


My personal feeling is what can they do to bring back the players they lost in the past few years. Without players spreading the gospel and bring more interest to the game they have only trouble ahead.

Its sonetimes far more trouble to bring back old players than it is to recruit new ones, especially with a new game/ip with none of the baggage and toxicity of the old crowd.

It's a ruthless approach but from a business pov there is some merit in this perspective.

Look at gw and the Wfb crowd. They weren't buying. Wfb was dead. Whats more, they were often toxic and actively campaigned at keeping people away from the game, either directly or indirectly (perspectives on whether this was hood or bad will differ based on your pov).Gw made the decision to send it down the swans path in a blaze of glory, build a new ip, a new type of game and recruit new players, rather than cater to the old guard they saw as salty, not worth catering to or trying to appease and probably more trouble than they're worth (their opinion, imo). And look where aos is now. Still loathed by huge chunks of the old guard (and from their perspective, rightly so) but far more successful than wfb was, especially in the last few years. From gws position it was the right call.

Back at pp and wmh. To bring back the players they'd lost, or to bring in new ones, in some ways they'd have to cut loose the reality/perception of the ultra competitive and sometimes extremely toxic remnant that is still there. Maybe even move on from wmh entirely.

This is so spot on. In a wierd way this forum is example of what you are talking about. Most people on this thread are not active players. and usually fall into:
1. Disaffected players from days past.
2. Hate/regret nostolgia caused by life getting in the way.
3. Never played the game but maybe thought about it once in a dream or demo'ed while bored and waiting for the next round of MTG to start.

If someone went off this forum you would think the game is dead with no support. Then you go on the LoS discord and it is all young people. If old players come back, great. But alot of times, old players (like with WHFB) just take their saltiness caused by issue X and project on the hobby and are caught in a death spiral. Best to walk away to greener pastures while the radiation dies down.

 LunarSol wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:

Edit-almost forgot, airships are a thing, though based on the artwork in the book, they are massive things like flying aircraft carriers
with colossus size units looking fairly small on the decks. I look forward to someone building a board that is two of them next to each other with troops and jacks
moving across temp bridges or something for battle

These were actually introduced in a narrative lead leading up to Lock and Load a couple years back. At Lock and Load, they built several tables of them for the finale of the league and the games played on them directly influenced the final stories of the league. Notably Stryker died bringing one down and another crashed when Lord Carver got to the helm and tried to pilot it himself. Most of the ones that survived where the craft that were used to allow everyone to flee through the gate to escape the Infernals.

that is neat to find out, might have to look for some pics at some point to see the tables

 greenskin lynn wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:

Edit-almost forgot, airships are a thing, though based on the artwork in the book, they are massive things like flying aircraft carriers
with colossus size units looking fairly small on the decks. I look forward to someone building a board that is two of them next to each other with troops and jacks
moving across temp bridges or something for battle

These were actually introduced in a narrative lead leading up to Lock and Load a couple years back. At Lock and Load, they built several tables of them for the finale of the league and the games played on them directly influenced the final stories of the league. Notably Stryker died bringing one down and another crashed when Lord Carver got to the helm and tried to pilot it himself. Most of the ones that survived where the craft that were used to allow everyone to flee through the gate to escape the Infernals.

that is neat to find out, might have to look for some pics at some point to see the tables

Yeah. PP had really upped the Lock and Load event game over the last few years. There was the whole thing with Holden being marked out by the Grymkin that culminated in a big battle to protect him at Lock and Load (Grymkin won, which is why he's now a cursed soul in their faction). The airship thing was the next step of this and the point where I felt the community was catching on and getting excited by them. It's pretty clear that the whole Hengehold Scrolls thing was building up to the battle at the gate being the huge event for Lock and Load 2020 and I think it would have honestly been really great. A real shame it was 2020.

deleted

 greenskin lynn wrote:
So having a bit of free time, i figured I'd write up some of the story/fluff advancement from Requiem

Thank you sir, exalted!

Overread wrote:They can certainly make and sell models; they just need to rebuild their distribution, outreach programs and get some fresh sculpts (resculpts and new ideas) into the market. I'd welcome things like new angleus designs in metal/resin or in high quality plastics if they can make that move.

Popping in to say that I thought of PP recently, when my LGS warned my about GW limiting store preorders (to 2 in the case of Belakor, for example, or I think 5 of Codex: AdMech) and reserving all second printings for the GW webstore. It's unclear if LGSes have to wait for third printing or what (i.e. post new release boom and ebay glut). I know the Dub has been having supply chain issues, like everybody during the pandemic, but a part of me wonders if they're taking this as a time to move towards the dream of 100% traffic through their own web portal (i.e. the land of pure MSRP no sales ever profit). What reminded me of PP was when PP clamped down on discounts above 15% and appeared to be trying to drive sales through their own webstore, like with the Blank Anchor Heavy Industries thing. Speaking of alienating LGSes and distributors.

GW can achieve 100% orders through their website without needing any tricks. They can just stop selling to 3rd parties or only sell them models at reduced discount like they do with direct orders so that 3rd party stores can't undercut GW's prices.

I think GW's order restrictions right now are purly the result of the fact that GW's revenue over the last year is 2X their previous year whilst GW has had 2 months shut down last year coupled with dramatically reduced output all through the last year. So basically GW is seeing probably double sales at a time when their production capacity is heavily curtailed.

GW simply cannot make stuff fast enough so they are having to do limited measures to try and spread the stock out as much as they can when they do have it.

I'm still pissed that Amon Ad Raza never got epic stats or a miniature. Some of the artwork for him is tremendously EPIC.

ottokill wrote:
I'm still pissed that Amon Ad Raza never got epic stats or a miniature. Some of the artwork for him is tremendously EPIC.

Only true beasts can leave the warcaster armor at home and still wreck things.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
What reminded me of PP was when PP clamped down on discounts above 15% and appeared to be trying to drive sales through their own webstore, like with the Blank Anchor Heavy Industries thing. Speaking of alienating LGSes and distributors.

I've never understood the connection made here. The MAP restriction largely came about because LGS's were heavily complaining that they couldn't compete with discount online retailers. A lot of stores I visited a the time were getting outright hostile with their customers, who kept coming in with the models that had been languishing on the shelves. I guess I don't quite understand how the MAP impacts the LGS when its mostly targeting their competition.

Likewise, huge bases were among the worst offenders and there were only a couple stores I knew that would risk stocking them. With stores not stocking them, they were pretty much the first thing distributors cut as the industry shifted to the "no restocking" model we have now. Honestly, I just assume direct order was simply the only way PP could continue to make the things, particularly after the hard plastics missed their hype window and they had to go back to resin.

Players can take figures they bought online into their flgs to play, but not to the online store they bought it from. Every time a player does that the game store is subsidizing the online sales at its expense. If the game store decides not to support a game that is costing them money, those online sales die out too. PP was protecting online retailers, and players, from themselves.

The US isn't like the UK where there are clubs at a neutral venue; if the local game stores don't host a wargame the community dies, period. The culture of play-where-you-buy is strong and without that (or the copious MtG sales) game stores wouldn't really stand as a business model. But while players will eat that 15% to support their local store, when a box of infantry costs $60 and the online retailer offers 40% off they go 'well, if it's just me buying just this unit online instead it won't make a difference' which of course just ends swimmingly for everyone involved.

ottokill wrote:
I'm still pissed that Amon Ad Raza never got epic stats or a miniature. Some of the artwork for him is tremendously EPIC.

From the new RPG material that may be the case. I think he is one of the few casters around who isn't in Zu!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Players can take figures they bought online into their flgs to play, but not to the online store they bought it from. Every time a player does that the game store is subsidizing the online sales at its expense. If the game store decides not to support a game that is costing them money, those online sales die out too. PP was protecting online retailers, and players, from themselves.

The US isn't like the UK where there are clubs at a neutral venue; if the local game stores don't host a wargame the community dies, period. The culture of play-where-you-buy is strong and without that (or the copious MtG sales) game stores wouldn't really stand as a business model. But while players will eat that 15% to support their local store, when a box of infantry costs $60 and the online retailer offers 40% off they go 'well, if it's just me buying just this unit online instead it won't make a difference' which of course just ends swimmingly for everyone involved.

America is not the UK, most people don't play in a game store. Most people in America play in their house where a starter home for a lower middle class family is 1200-1500 sq feet, 3 bedrooms, 2 baths and a garage.

Online non brick and mortar 15%+ discount makes sense for most of America AND international orders. Unless you live in the Pacific Northwest and have to pay 325,000 for the privelage or live in an apartment with 3-4 people.

The entire Portland - Seattle Pacific Northwest miniature wargaming industry is crippled by living in a region that they think is the rest of America and where people like to burn down stuff.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
The US isn't like the UK where there are clubs at a neutral venue; if the local game stores don't host a wargame the community dies, period. The culture of play-where-you-buy is strong and without that (or the copious MtG sales) game stores wouldn't really stand as a business model. But while players will eat that 15% to support their local store, when a box of infantry costs $60 and the online retailer offers 40% off they go 'well, if it's just me buying just this unit online instead it won't make a difference' which of course just ends swimmingly for everyone involved.

Oddly enough, a couple of such clubs just opened up here in the Phoenix Metro area. One is in on the east side, and one is fairly close to down town. The local FB page shows notes of regular WMH meetups over on the east-side one, but since the central one just officially opened, I don't know how well it will hold up for that.

Still, most of the meet up areas tend to be game stores here. While home is always available, it generally doesn't gather groups of enthusiasts as much as a gamestore with tables.

Stores generally have an edge in supporting game clubs and acting as a local venue because of two core aspects

1) The store has an owner and staff, which generally removes a layer of politics and confusion over who is running the club and such. Some clubs can fall apart because no one is in charge really and thus its easy for no one sort things out.
Or they pull themselves apart arguing over who gets to run things.

2) The store has a long term commitment. In general a store is going to stick around, it won't get distracted with "real life" ergo work because it is their work.
Again clubs have crumbled because a few key people get caught up and stop turning up and that can easily cause a casual snowballing until no one turns up; or the guy who has the key becomes erratic at turning up; etc..


And yes I do agree, PP And GW and many other larger firms have sometimes had to take steps to curtail cheap online sales to protect physical stores and other aspects of their market/hobby. Simply put running a highstreet store comes with so many increased overheads these days. Rent, rates and taxes all vastly increase overhead on a highstreet store in reasonable (let alone decent) part of the town; over a warehouse which can be way out of town in a super cheap area. Heck some game stores can operate out of personal home addresses provided they've got a big enough garage.

https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/06/04/this-is-not-a-keynote/?fbclid=IwAR0WN6ztd21rz04XA6OEbAvFD9BjjJkJeYT_LFDsB3-8Bmu_jDfkolaD_HQ

some interesting stuff
While i don't play/collect, the monpoc stuff continues to tempt
The warcaster stuff is cool, the fact they're doing a fluff book makes me happy
Given i backed the kickstarter, more Requiem stuff, including one that focuses on the mystery of Ios which i'd been wondering about is awesome
As for the huge infernals models, i wish the difference between the two was more then just the hand options and if the tail is high or low
Mostly though, now i want more then just the fancy script word they posted to talk about the next faction hitting warmahordes, Orgoth

Orgoth is like PPs version of bringing back the Primarchs. It says earlier in the article that its too far out too show anything though.

Loving MonPoc. Impressed how they've continued to come up with new ideas for it.

We actually have one Orgoth sculpt from the widower's wood boardgame (still kicking myself for missing the KSer to get those exclusives in plastic).



Curios to see how much living Orgoth match the dead ones.

now the question is, will they pull from all the undead orgoth we are already familiar with from the rpgs, or perhaps stuff that shows the infernal influence, maybe the stuff that eventually made its way to cryx like the war witches

the force feels like it has the potential to pull from several existing lines

Orgoth feel like they were inevitable after Infernals.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Orgoth feel like they were inevitable after Infernals.

Going of the current lore and the new IKRPG lore, I don't think so. What we call Ogroth are humans who made deals with Infernals called Ogroth. They are competitors to the Nokorians who are another faction of Infernals. Whatever deal Thamar and Morrow made with the Nokorian order for humans to get magic also allowed the Nokorians to decimate the Ogroth in their own realm.

As numina who inhabit the spirit world in the spaces between things, quantum and cosmological, their realm has alot of resemblance to DnD's Limbo realm in Planescape. Time and matter ebbs and flows with the place of the inhabitants on the food chain being based upon their ability to enforce their will on the environment to create stability. The cosmos big and small and pretty large so their are unnumerable cults who gather around the metaphorical sharks of their strange oceanic emptiness where one moment there is a landscape where radiation flows like mercury tides and the next is just howling neutrino dust storms in the void. It is not unusual for cults to eat each other through warfare and for the Nokorian order the Umbral guardians are the subjected survivors of a devoured cult.

This is why souls are valuable currency. They can be spilt, melded, carve, molded but whatever form you put them into they are stable. One of the elven gods got turned to a sort of living key and they are still around in that realm.

While those humans who worshipped Ogroth are still around as, not even ghosts but living remnants of memories they are not a dominate force. The world was pretty decimated by the Infernals almost taking 3rd of the population so I wouldn't count on the out of control escalation like before and the release for WMH seem to be going at a reasonable pace as they manage multiple eggs in thier IP basket. Which is a good thing, they just need to expand at least one of those IPs out of just miniatures.

I am wondering what factions will look like in a Mk4 system. The Defiers have taken up residence in the town of Icthier, Protectorate is a shadow of itself with Sul being a ghost town where strange creatures lurk at night. Most of the survivors have fled to Zu with Tristan the Prophet of Menoth. Menoth was devastated by leadership who turned to infernal deals. Lael and Ord are almot operating as one country through their marriage arrangement. King Julian and Cygnar seem to have the world as their oyster. Rhul where untouched by the Infernals invasion and are strong. Queen Ayn is struggling with keeping Vlad's heir safe with most of their borders being inhabited and trying to retain Umbrea, New Umbrea, and her own borders. While Caspia uses the Morrowan Church, Thamarites and Order of Illumination to hunt infernalists, Khador has double down on the Old Faith worhsip of Menoth with the religious orders there working with the Greylord Covenant. Convergence of Cyriss worships openly now and have wide acceptance due to their importance in the final days of Hengehold.

Ios is a mystery, the place appears abandoned and those who enter never come back. Even the elves who returned home after the war. Cryx is Cryx and bidding their time since Infernals ate undead souls too. Skorne fled back across the Abyss to their homeland. Circle is rocking it since Infernals took care of the civilization problem to a degree. Minions are the same for the same reason. United Kriels are in Alcheire arcaepelago but some came back to Cygnar after the way and made a new treaty with Julian. I don't know what is going on with Legion.

In the failed timeline he uploaded his consciousness into the Cyriss Constellation (https://ironkingdoms.fandom.com/wiki/Convergence_of_Cyriss). Everblight ate all the minds in there and went full on Skynet. This is not what happened in the main timeline, but no news is out on what they are doing now.

Wrath of the Dragon Father inspired Khador and Cygnar to make sky ships. They are not everywhere but they are effective weapons of war.

The place the world is at with the lore we have now is not a world of escalating brinksmanship. It is going back to the OG border skirmishes with some scary stuff in the wild and ruined places of Immoren. With the introduction of skyships I wouldn't be surprised to see an Epic version of IK but on the 28mm front I see SKU slowing down. More focus seems to be on CIDs with themes being treat as minifactions like you see in GW with SM Chapters, Traitor Legions, Broods, etc. with some models being released wit CID to round out those mini-factions.

Hungerford left last week (the 4th) to go work for another company. So all the designers for MK3 are gone now I believe.

I've only seen a screen shot of his full text on FB. If I find it in text I'll post it here but here's a twitter thread. https://twitter.com/wnhungerford/status/1401894743030657027

A company IS bigger than one man but this still doesn't look good on top of all the other PP issues.

Wills great strength was that he could present to the community. The others leave me very cold. But I did think on the last few podcast appearances he did he didn't seem very enthused.

Best of luck to him.

deleted

Soles.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Hungerford left last week (the 4th) to go work for another company. So all the designers for MK3 are gone now I believe.

I've only seen a screen shot of his full text on FB. If I find it in text I'll post it here but here's a twitter thread. https://twitter.com/wnhungerford/status/1401894743030657027

Well, that's awkward. So who's left driving the ship? Does that leave Warmachine with any remaining designers?

while the names currently escape me, they have a number of other designers, the probably i guess is that hungerford was very much a face and voice that had a strong online/media presence. he was who you'd see as a guest on a podcast or doing a game of warcaster or something in a video

I'm curious where the dude ends up next

deleted

Jason is a nice guy and quite easy to talk to, but he's not a "look at me" public personality.

I am sure Will got a good offer from someonez and it is sad to see him leave - I mostly will remember him from his Press Gang days - but, you know -"This has all happened before, and it will all happen again".

deleted

i mean, 10 years is a solid stretch at one place these days.
Be interesting to see what he helps produce now that he can expand beyond PP's IP

GW did JUST recently post a position fwiw. Not out of the question.

Faye has been helming some of Hungerford's duties for a little while now and she seems to have a good head for it. There's several faces that have been pretty prominent in the Insiders for a while; I just don't follow them as much as I used to.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

"Hey do you want to come work for us? We pay a higher salary and are located in a lower cost-of-living area than Seattle and it's surroundings."

There is a reason or two I think Hungerford would want to stay in Seattle that are not connected to games.

Maybe Wyrd is giving him a chance to return to the Bayou?

He could be jumping to Atomic Mass games too as they have all the star wars stuff now.

Honestly I think this is good for the company as pretty much everyone, that doesn't own privateer, that was involved with scuttling the press gangers and the MK3 launch are now gone. If people really want Privateer to break away and try new things out to become relevant again not having any of the people that were involved in the day to day operations that got Warmahordes where it ended up is probably increases the chances of such change.

 LunarSol wrote:
Maybe Wyrd is giving him a chance to return to the Bayou?

Id love for Will to work for Wyrd and turn his skills to Malifaux!

 Monkeysloth wrote:
He could be jumping to Atomic Mass games too as they have all the star wars stuff now.

He has already stated it is not AMG.

Brawlmachine on a Budget is back with Circle Orboros!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/4/27/brawlmachine-for-175-or-less-circle-orboros

Hungerford went to Broken Anvil Miniatures as Lead Game Designer.

 Ghool wrote:
Hungerford went to Broken Anvil Miniatures as Lead Game Designer.

Today I learned there's a Redwall styled minis game that has a competent game designer working on it. These are things my wallet really didn't want me to know.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Ghool wrote:
Hungerford went to Broken Anvil Miniatures as Lead Game Designer.

Today I learned there's a Redwall styled minis game that has a competent game designer working on it. These are things my wallet really didn't want me to know.

Wait for your mind to be blown - there's two then since the one I'm familiar with is Burrows and Badgers
https://www.oathswornminiatures.co.uk/c/4553237/1/burrows-badgers.html

Oh yeah... how could I forget that one....

I mean it; I mean, I successfully blocked it out without buying it. How did I do it? I must know my secrets!

Your only solution is to purge yourself through consumerism and buy a load of B&B models

Remember, likes and comments go a long way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNws-voE-R0


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bring it out your dead! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6BYcRp1QGU


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drank the Kool-aid, turned into a werewolf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZT1KN4rjcA


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Magic is complicated...sometimes. https://www.loswarmachine.com/warmachine-lore/2021/6/4/the-arcane-orders-part-2-the-branches-of-arcane-magic?fbclid=IwAR0EOYUG4-s-DzeI5yShavythsY_Y5_AqsFE8ipSHPU9t4e7gvcvmVEAJpA

So many endings, there must be a beginning. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UfzyapyVUI

 Ghool wrote:
Hungerford went to Broken Anvil Miniatures as Lead Game Designer.

Geesh - do they have anyone left who used to work there 5 years ago? All the "names" are gone now.

Schmapdi wrote:

 Ghool wrote:
Hungerford went to Broken Anvil Miniatures as Lead Game Designer.

Geesh - do they have anyone left who used to work there 5 years ago? All the "names" are gone now.

Its worrying and it doesn't look good given PPs recent history. But reflect on this.

1) Staying at the same company for 5-10 years is very very rare these days especially in the tabletop gaming industry.
2) Most of the "big names" at PP were total "no names" when they joined the company and only gained a reputation and the love of the community over time. The new staff will have the opportunity to do the same.
3) A changing of the guard can be very worrying (I am worried, for the record). But it can also be an opportunity for new ideas, new approaches, openness to new tech and concepts. I think many of us agree that PP needs to "do something" to claw back market space and players. So maybe a fresh set of eyes could help in doing this.

Another thing I have been thinking about recently is maybe just accepting that, in reality, WM/H time is just done. Though I think I still love it, its still a very old game with old mechanics and a huge back catalogue that can never really be balanced by a company with about 5 devs. Its out of step with modern trends, communities and production techniques. Maybe its time we all accept that, thank it for the memories and get behind PPs other projects and support them when they come to do the complete refresh of WM/H from the ground up as I suspect they will have to do.

Not a popular opinion I know.

Sunno wrote:


Not a popular opinion I know.

Youre not the only person that shares that opinion. I'm personally pretty sure they're only keeping it around until their other games take off. I doubt it's getting much time or interest internally at pp.

As you say, short of a massive reboot, from a business pov wmh is kind of done.

The Iron Kingdoms themselves are probably PPs most marketable IP and the core game of Warmachine is a solid engine. The battle system, and resources are all still very unique and compelling. It's larger than the most popular games of the day and probably would benefit from a reduction in size, but I'm not sure there's anything wrong beyond the need to modernize some of its interactions (particularly with terrain).

The big thing is the game just isn't sold in a way that is remotely viable anymore. There's no entry point to speak of, too many redundant options, too many partial kits to hunt down to build the army.

They really need to relaunch the game, less in terms of rules, but in terms of products. I really liked the direction we saw at the start of Mk3 with the 0 point battlegroup boxes that could be combined with the 35 point army sets. It was a solid product but the game really didn't support it, nor did it really support the game. While there's issues with the recent Malifaux box sets, the one saving grace is the game aligns more closely to the model bundles they provide. Warmachine really needs something similar. It's at a place where how the product is sold is just too far out of date to continue.

I'd be all behind them doing a big re-launch. In fact they don't even have to break things, just copy exactly what GW does. Release a few new models and update the others with new sculpts. New battle boxes, MKIV rules or even a totally new rules system.

They could even go big with a new name - IRON KINGDOMS - and finally just merge Warmachine and Hordes. It is somewhat curious that they spread their marketing over two franchise titles and yet the two games work together almost all the time and, esp now, likely rely heavily on it to survive since neither one has pulled ahead of the other.


If I were them I'd not abandon it - they've invested a huge amount and there's no reason they can't have a resurgence if they can work toward a powerful new launch program.

I actually chatted with a dev about this at a con a ways back. It had mostly to do with legal requirements involving production and distribution. Deals made under specific trademarks and the like that made it cost prohibitive to change. Curious if enough of those deals have fallen apart enough to make change feasible now though.

LunarSol wrote:They really need to relaunch the game, less in terms of rules, but in terms of products. I really liked the direction we saw at the start of Mk3 with the 0 point battlegroup boxes that could be combined with the 35 point army sets. It was a solid product but the game really didn't support it, nor did it really support the game. While there's issues with the recent Malifaux box sets, the one saving grace is the game aligns more closely to the model bundles they provide. Warmachine really needs something similar. It's at a place where how the product is sold is just too far out of date to continue.

25 point boxes would probably make the most sense, considering Brawlmachine and the gating of the Requisition Points. On the other hand, those boxes are only useful for those who can afford them, and not so much for those who are forced to buy at smaller scales. Two more problems come along with it. Back when they were launching the Themes, they brought out the 35 point boxes, but what came in the box was only considered "worth it" for about a year, and then nobody wanted them. What comes in the box may not be worth getting for the Steamroller crowd. Another problem is, what is 25 points today may not be 25 points next year with CID or allowable in the next Brawlmachine update.

Overread wrote:They could even go big with a new name - IRON KINGDOMS - and finally just merge Warmachine and Hordes. It is somewhat curious that they spread their marketing over two franchise titles and yet the two games work together almost all the time and, esp now, likely rely heavily on it to survive since neither one has pulled ahead of the other.

Possible, but I wonder if that would be confused with the TTRPG at this point?

LunarSol wrote:I actually chatted with a dev about this at a con a ways back. It had mostly to do with legal requirements involving production and distribution. Deals made under specific trademarks and the like that made it cost prohibitive to change. Curious if enough of those deals have fallen apart enough to make change feasible now though.

Ugg, legalities. If there was any way to mess up a situation more than by adding lawyers, politicians, and bureaucrats, I've yet to see it.

Sunno wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:

 Ghool wrote:
Hungerford went to Broken Anvil Miniatures as Lead Game Designer.

Geesh - do they have anyone left who used to work there 5 years ago? All the "names" are gone now.

Its worrying and it doesn't look good given PPs recent history. But reflect on this.

1) Staying at the same company for 5-10 years is very very rare these days especially in the tabletop gaming industry.
2) Most of the "big names" at PP were total "no names" when they joined the company and only gained a reputation and the love of the community over time. The new staff will have the opportunity to do the same.
3) A changing of the guard can be very worrying (I am worried, for the record). But it can also be an opportunity for new ideas, new approaches, openness to new tech and concepts. I think many of us agree that PP needs to "do something" to claw back market space and players. So maybe a fresh set of eyes could help in doing this.

Another thing I have been thinking about recently is maybe just accepting that, in reality, WM/H time is just done. Though I think I still love it, its still a very old game with old mechanics and a huge back catalogue that can never really be balanced by a company with about 5 devs. Its out of step with modern trends, communities and production techniques. Maybe its time we all accept that, thank it for the memories and get behind PPs other projects and support them when they come to do the complete refresh of WM/H from the ground up as I suspect they will have to do.

Not a popular opinion I know.

That's true - some new blood could be a really good thing for the game and help them get back on their feet - but it'd be less worrying if all the old guard hadn't left in the span of a year. That really feels like a "sinking ship" sort of deal. Plus how much will the new guard be hobbled by Matt Wilson still being in charge? How involved is he anymore, how open is he to change?

I also feel WM/H is "done" and really needs a big reboot if it's to ever thrive again - I'm hoping Warcaster is a test-bed for that. But also it's pointless if they don't switch to all plastic kits when they do so, and (ironically) - I don't think PP has the "balls" to go that route. Though they've finally embraced using Kickstarter to fund new projects - so it should be a no-brainer.

 Charistoph wrote:

Overread wrote:They could even go big with a new name - IRON KINGDOMS - and finally just merge Warmachine and Hordes. It is somewhat curious that they spread their marketing over two franchise titles and yet the two games work together almost all the time and, esp now, likely rely heavily on it to survive since neither one has pulled ahead of the other.

Possible, but I wonder if that would be confused with the TTRPG at this point?

Unlikely, GW never has a problem marketing loads of different products under Warhammer 40K or Age of Sigmar.

Iron Kingdoms just becomes the overarching title then you've got the RPG, the Wargame etc.... underneath. Mixing up a wargame with an RPG is not easy .

I think MK4 version with new boxes and having an official legacy mode for models made before a certain date (and allow them to be subs for certain models in official tournies) would go a long way of really addressing everything here.

I do think waiting another 2 years isn't a bad idea to let Warcaster and Riot Quest bake more is a good idea. Monsterpoc seams to be doing quite good and doesn't seam to need the resources the other two games need. Warcaster is finally getting a book out with fluff for example. That game needs those resources atm.

Also really push smaller point games so the community doesn't just gravitate to larger scale ones will help as no one likes spending as much as WMH is right now to get into it.

I will say, however, the latest round of mystery boxes really brought a lot of traffic to the Warmachine subreddit (more so then any past offering of them has) with most being new players to the game. It's pretty noticeable as how dead the subreddit usually is.

So there's some interest in the system from players and getting a really good deal does seam to get some to pull the trigger.

I wonder if PP will use Warcaster like GW is using AoS and 40K right now - bouncing ideas off each game.

I'd lose to see Warcasters sideboard idea brought into Warmachine/Hordes and I think it would really work great considering that it lets you use a lot more models at the same time and just summon in what you need from your sideboard during the fight. I think that's an ideal way for a skirmish game to keep the skirmish feel, but at the same time have a big roster of models for the player to buy and choose from without it ending up a wargame.

Overread wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Overread wrote:They could even go big with a new name - IRON KINGDOMS - and finally just merge Warmachine and Hordes. It is somewhat curious that they spread their marketing over two franchise titles and yet the two games work together almost all the time and, esp now, likely rely heavily on it to survive since neither one has pulled ahead of the other.

Possible, but I wonder if that would be confused with the TTRPG at this point?

Unlikely, GW never has a problem marketing loads of different products under Warhammer 40K or Age of Sigmar.

Iron Kingdoms just becomes the overarching title then you've got the RPG, the Wargame etc.... underneath. Mixing up a wargame with an RPG is not easy .

In this case, we're going backwards from that, though. GW's miniature game is unlikely to be called Dark Heresy any time soon, for example. Most people who haven't dived in to any lore would just be confused by calling the culmination Iron Kingdoms. At least for the first year or two. Maybe if they start branding it as Iron Kingdoms: Warmachine for a while, they can gradually retire the original moniker. As it is, getting Hordes trademarked must be a bear to keep up.

Overread wrote:I wonder if PP will use Warcaster like GW is using AoS and 40K right now - bouncing ideas off each game.

I'd lose to see Warcasters sideboard idea brought into Warmachine/Hordes and I think it would really work great considering that it lets you use a lot more models at the same time and just summon in what you need from your sideboard during the fight. I think that's an ideal way for a skirmish game to keep the skirmish feel, but at the same time have a big roster of models for the player to buy and choose from without it ending up a wargame.

I think a lot of people have been thinking that for a while now. It's also possible that some of that "side-boarding" is also being tested by the Infernals, too.

 Overread wrote:
I wonder if PP will use Warcaster like GW is using AoS and 40K right now - bouncing ideas off each game.

I'd lose to see Warcasters sideboard idea brought into Warmachine/Hordes and I think it would really work great considering that it lets you use a lot more models at the same time and just summon in what you need from your sideboard during the fight. I think that's an ideal way for a skirmish game to keep the skirmish feel, but at the same time have a big roster of models for the player to buy and choose from without it ending up a wargame.

It wouldn't surprise me if they are using warcaster as a test bed. Before he left Will H was vocal about the fact that he wanted to drop things like model facing, improve terrain rules etc. All of which are core parts of warcaster.

Iv said this many time but i was expected the oblivion campaign to be the "end times" for Mk3 resulting in a MK4 with slimmed down factions and model count, on account of most of the IK and major cities being burnt to the ground, eaten up etc. Instead what we go was a Mk3.5 with even more bloat.

The thing is that I don't think that PP has any kind of cushioning to allow them to weather the upheaval that a full rewrite would create in the community. I would be one of those people who, if PP removed some of the more "technical" elements of from WM/H, would walk away. im not sure they would survive such an upheaval financially.
GW had the money to do it and grind it out, remove a whole generation of WHFB players and replace them over time with a new generation of Timmys and their AoS armies and simple rules. PP cannot do that.

Also I don't thing PP has the money to retool, re-sculpt and reproduce a whole new fleet of models for a new edition in that manner. They have had to kickstater all of Warcaster and most of RQ. I know they say its a preorder system but its also a great way of avoiding financial risk and putting it all on the customer up front. Meaning they just don't have the funds to take risks with.

So as much as I think that PP should attempt a Mk4 with full re-work I dont think they have the staff, money or the balls to do it. Which is why they are stuck adding bloat on bloat, faction on faction and power creep on power creep. Which is why i think the game has run its course.

Still want to play it, IF I can find the right mined people to play it with

Sunno wrote:

The thing is that I don't think that PP has any kind of cushioning to allow them to weather the upheaval that a full rewrite would create in the community.

Also I don't thing PP has the money to retool, re-sculpt and reproduce a whole new fleet of models for a new edition in that manner. They have had to kickstater all of Warcaster and most of RQ. I know they say its a preorder system but its also a great way of avoiding financial risk and putting it all on the customer up front. Meaning they just don't have the funds to take risks with.

So as much as I think that PP should attempt a Mk4 with full re-work I dont think they have the staff, money or the balls to do it. Which is why they are stuck adding bloat on bloat, faction on faction and power creep on power creep. Which is why i think the game has run its course.

Iirc, I heard most of their cash flow these days is minicrate. Wmh apparently doesn't bring all that much in. The fact that everything is a kick-start does make sense financially,but it also indicates that budgets are tight.

In terms of adding bloat, it's unfortunste but it's
the 'new wave sells' nature of the industry. Most of a kits sales are in the first six months. After a point, the most of a factions roster kind of becomes irrelevant in terms of its ability to generate £££s and $$$s. most of thr old factions are (pardon the puns!) colossal behemoths at this point. They're kind of mined out, bar malibu-man-o-war, now with a new hat kinds of shenanigans. Pp were forced into thr 'a new faction every year from now on' route to maintain the 'wave' business model.

I tend to agree with you. I don't think they have the resources (staff, time, $$$) or interest to rework wmh. I don't think the community is there for it any more either. Its old design in a new market. It's in wfb territory.

Sunno wrote:
Iv said this many time but i was expected the oblivion campaign to be the "end times" for Mk3 resulting in a MK4 with slimmed down factions and model count, on account of most of the IK and major cities being burnt to the ground, eaten up etc. Instead what we go was a Mk3.5 with even more bloat.

It's still possible, but I'm not holding my breath.

Sunno wrote:
The thing is that I don't think that PP has any kind of cushioning to allow them to weather the upheaval that a full rewrite would create in the community. I would be one of those people who, if PP removed some of the more "technical" elements of from WM/H, would walk away. im not sure they would survive such an upheaval financially.
GW had the money to do it and grind it out, remove a whole generation of WHFB players and replace them over time with a new generation of Timmys and their AoS armies and simple rules. PP cannot do that.

Remember when they took out the ability to Throw your own models? There was a lot of vitriol about that decision. It didn't really help that other community decisions were killing the game at the same time.

Sunno wrote:
Also I don't thing PP has the money to retool, re-sculpt and reproduce a whole new fleet of models for a new edition in that manner. They have had to kickstater all of Warcaster and most of RQ. I know they say its a preorder system but its also a great way of avoiding financial risk and putting it all on the customer up front. Meaning they just don't have the funds to take risks with.

So as much as I think that PP should attempt a Mk4 with full re-work I dont think they have the staff, money or the balls to do it. Which is why they are stuck adding bloat on bloat, faction on faction and power creep on power creep. Which is why i think the game has run its course.

I can't fully agree on this. If they don't have enough to do Mk4 with a work up, they wouldn't have had the wherewithal to do Warcaster. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me to find that Warcaster was the last gasp. I don't know of anyone local playing it, but I'm kind of relegated to the extreme edge of the community due to certain personal travel restrictions and haven't really looked.

Sunno wrote:
Still want to play it, IF I can find the right mined people to play it with

That's true enough. I think some of the more local blokes would be up for it, but the overall scene is dominated by the Steamrollers.

Deadnight wrote:

Sunno wrote:

The thing is that I don't think that PP has any kind of cushioning to allow them to weather the upheaval that a full rewrite would create in the community.

Also I don't thing PP has the money to retool, re-sculpt and reproduce a whole new fleet of models for a new edition in that manner. They have had to kickstater all of Warcaster and most of RQ. I know they say its a preorder system but its also a great way of avoiding financial risk and putting it all on the customer up front. Meaning they just don't have the funds to take risks with.

So as much as I think that PP should attempt a Mk4 with full re-work I dont think they have the staff, money or the balls to do it. Which is why they are stuck adding bloat on bloat, faction on faction and power creep on power creep. Which is why i think the game has run its course.

Iirc, I heard most of their cash flow these days is minicrate. Wmh apparently doesn't bring all that much in. The fact that everything is a kick-start does make sense financially,but it also indicates that budgets are tight.

In terms of adding bloat, it's unfortunste but it's
the 'new wave sells' nature of the industry. Most of a kits sales are in the first six months. After a point, the most of a factions roster kind of becomes irrelevant in terms of its ability to generate £££s and $$$s. most of thr old factions are (pardon the puns!) colossal behemoths at this point. They're kind of mined out, bar malibu-man-o-war, now with a new hat kinds of shenanigans. Pp were forced into thr 'a new faction every year from now on' route to maintain the 'wave' business model.

I tend to agree with you. I don't think they have the resources (staff, time, $$$) or interest to rework wmh. I don't think the community is there for it any more either. Its old design in a new market. It's in wfb territory.

This is why, in terms of Warmachine should start pivoting towards the BattleTech way of handling bloat. Start kickstarting and licensing digital games of all kinds, see which ones stick and bring in income off the IP itself while doing Era releases every 5 years, and making sourcebooks for the miniature game in between. Warmachine is at the age now that it needs to move away from banking off of models and banking off of the IP in other mediums. This is true for any miniature that matures and wants to stick around. Whether it be Battletech or GW-verse.

Heck GW is still banking off of WHFB's video games long after the model game itself is dead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if steamroller is big or if you haven't played for a while and want to dip your toes in, just bring a copy of the Brawlmachine format and ask if anyone wants to play.

Most scenes with actual people in it are will be okay to try it instead of Steamroller (especially since it is really an addendum on the SR rules) and have fun.

I have seen people who are skeptical, fall in love with the format after 1 game.

When it comes to community people need to be more active and less passive in making the scene what they want it to be rather than hoping spontaneous generation makes the scene exactly as they want it for their zip code.

This seem strictly a type of mindset from old guard Warmachine players (which is wierd, we are old, we should know how the world operates). I don't see this in any other community. If there are a bunch of super competitives there is a break off of casuals. But that wont happen from greybeards sitting on their couch.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And while everyone now goes out to support the scene and formats they want to see, here are some great content creators every one can watch, read, and leave a comment for:

https://www.youtube.com/user/NeoKaiser0

https://www.youtube.com/user/MrMalorian

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2LsQzlVM5n2YZQYqjNGH4A

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtcWDdbRmOvkLjwAYN9V-tw

https://www.youtube.com/user/maxacorn

https://vldstudios.com/gravedigger/

My channel survived and was supported by PP fans. The last 12 months have seen a a massive drop off in popularity. Massive.
So massive that after 5 years of making painting videos that focused on using P3 paints and many of their models, I’ve given up.
My camera also broke, but that was just the last and final straw that broke the camel.

Watching and being a part of the steady decline of anything not GW was painful to watch and experience. I would be very surprised if they can make a comeback post-COVID. Even their kickstarters are pretty lacklustre in backer numbers. Even their most successful KS to date wasn’t over 7k backers, which was the IKRPG adapted to 5th edition.
Considering Indy publishers much smaller that PP can gather more backers than most of their projects makes me very concerned for their future.

A company with 30 employees can’t sustain anything long term only make a few hundred thousand dollars per project. Especially when they only have around 3 or 4 per year.
But they’ve been limping along for years now so I could be completely off base.
For me, it’s not so much their IP but the cost. Their prices are way too high for anyone outside the US. Once shipping and conversion rate is factored in, their prices become ludicrous.
Watching and observing everything around their IP slowly sinking and them losing popularity is painful and sad.

marxlives wrote:
...Also if steamroller is big or if you haven't played for a while and want to dip your toes in, just bring a copy of the Brawlmachine format and ask if anyone wants to play.

Most scenes with actual people in it are will be okay to try it instead of Steamroller (especially since it is really an addendum on the SR rules) and have fun.

I have seen people who are skeptical, fall in love with the format after 1 game...

I like the missions, I find 25pts makes it really unforgiving. Also the ban list could use a bit of an expansion; it's tremendously difficult to position to stop Thunderhead wandering in and fzzt-ing your entire list without losing on scenario, and Thagrosh1's free replacement heavy is brutal to try and play into.

deleted

 Mr. Grey wrote:

A company with 30 employees can’t sustain anything long term only make a few hundred thousand dollars per project. Especially when they only have around 3 or 4 per year.
But they’ve been limping along for years now so I could be completely off base.

I've found the constant turnover of long-term employees and designers fairly worrying for years now. I realize that in any industry you're going to have folks moving on to new and different things, but PP especially seemed to lose a lot of people. Not sure what it says when even your main lore guy(Doug Seacat) has gone and left the company. Obviously no telling what's causing this, whether or not it's low pay for the area they're in, uncomfortable workplace conditions, or what.

While turnover can always be a concern Doug is still a contractor for them. His stated reason for leaving is wanting to work in his own worlds and write novels which is a perfectly reasonable reason to leave. I'm surprised they kept Seacat as long as they did as creative types usually don't like to hang around and be stuck in other people's worlds/constraints based off all the ones I know IRL.

Some have left, like Goetz, to be contractors and have come back more full time (he's doing all the 5E stuff). I'm not sure of he's full time as he did have some RPG stuff come out from Modiphius last year.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Grey wrote:


I've said it before: I'll gladly pay more for quality resin miniatures or quality pewter minis. But ditch the crappy plastic.

While I like plastic depending on the model PP hasn't had too much luck with it (though I do like their PVC stuff for their boardgames) but I agree. Their resin is top notch and arguably the best in the industry for detail and durability.

Warcaster so far hasn't had any plastics, its all metal and resin.

they've also redone the starter box casters in resin/metal with new sculpts, so it could be they are slowly working to get away from all the bad plastics

I think that is their plan, the plastics didn't work for them and they've been burned hard. They also now seem to lack the will/finances to push into plastics again and with their market on a downturn there perhaps isn't the sales pressure either to make that move.

Moving into plastics is a big risk for companies; yes plastic can be cast faster and is a cheaper raw material; but its much easier to get a bad formula of plastic that customers don't like; or to end up with strange cuts on the moulds that limits your creative design (because your whole design team is used to metal and resin cuts and limitations). And if in the end you don't get a big surge in sales the plastic isn't even giving you all the advantages you were after.

It's a risky move for many and yet sometimes its also an essential move when things expand.

marxlives wrote:

And while everyone now goes out to support the scene and formats they want to see, here are some great content creators every one can watch, read, and leave a comment for:

http://momentofclarity.eu/

is the one I'd like to mention - run by our WTC team member it has returned to posting battle reports recently (once the situation allowed games to be played again)

Schmapdi wrote:

Sunno wrote:

Schmapdi wrote:

 Ghool wrote:
Hungerford went to Broken Anvil Miniatures as Lead Game Designer.

Geesh - do they have anyone left who used to work there 5 years ago? All the "names" are gone now.

Its worrying and it doesn't look good given PPs recent history. But reflect on this.

1) Staying at the same company for 5-10 years is very very rare these days especially in the tabletop gaming industry.
2) Most of the "big names" at PP were total "no names" when they joined the company and only gained a reputation and the love of the community over time. The new staff will have the opportunity to do the same.
3) A changing of the guard can be very worrying (I am worried, for the record). But it can also be an opportunity for new ideas, new approaches, openness to new tech and concepts. I think many of us agree that PP needs to "do something" to claw back market space and players. So maybe a fresh set of eyes could help in doing this.

Another thing I have been thinking about recently is maybe just accepting that, in reality, WM/H time is just done. Though I think I still love it, its still a very old game with old mechanics and a huge back catalogue that can never really be balanced by a company with about 5 devs. Its out of step with modern trends, communities and production techniques. Maybe its time we all accept that, thank it for the memories and get behind PPs other projects and support them when they come to do the complete refresh of WM/H from the ground up as I suspect they will have to do.

Not a popular opinion I know.

That's true - some new blood could be a really good thing for the game and help them get back on their feet - but it'd be less worrying if all the old guard hadn't left in the span of a year. That really feels like a "sinking ship" sort of deal. Plus how much will the new guard be hobbled by Matt Wilson still being in charge? How involved is he anymore, how open is he to change?

Let me put it this way. Way back when they used their forums to interact with their customers (iirc, it was during the Mk2 beta), Matt happily described himself as 'anal retentive.' He seemed genuinely baffled when people informed him that it was generally not considered a positive quality.

As a more general quality, he seems to get stuck on keeping designs. Which is why the Trollblood troll models look pretty much like Growlers from Vor the Maelstrom (which he worked on before PP). He definitely has a strong streak of 'this is how things should be.'

Cyel wrote:

marxlives wrote:

And while everyone now goes out to support the scene and formats they want to see, here are some great content creators every one can watch, read, and leave a comment for:

http://momentofclarity.eu/

is the one I'd like to mention - run by our WTC team member it has returned to posting battle reports recently (once the situation allowed games to be played again)

Very cool, I will check it out.

Been having fun with Riot Quest for awhile on Friday nights. And now there is an official wiki for it! Entries are still being made and updated but still alot of good info.
https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/07/01/riot-quest-rules-wiki-live/

Cyel wrote:
http://momentofclarity.eu/

is the one I'd like to mention - run by our WTC team member it has returned to posting battle reports recently (once the situation allowed games to be played again)

Thanks for the reminder! I used to read MoC but lost track of it during the pandemic. Happy to catch up!

Only faction that has a legal and legitimate existence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCjEVKlEXLU

Should Riot Quest be Discontinued? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZCv0lLoVw

You see the title, you have the link, listen and discuss.

marxlives wrote:
Should Riot Quest be Discontinued? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZCv0lLoVw

You see the title, you have the link, listen and discuss.

Yes, but this video should live forever

https://youtu.be/8kqrkYSHQVw

 Kommisar wrote:

marxlives wrote:
Should Riot Quest be Discontinued? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvZCv0lLoVw

You see the title, you have the link, listen and discuss.

Yes, but this video should live forever

https://youtu.be/8kqrkYSHQVw

I had heard the legends, but wow that trailer exceeded my worst expectations of awful.

Come check out the newest release in the Line of Sight family of Alternative Warmachine formats - Diplomachine! Diplomachine offers a way for players to scratch the “grand strategy” itch missing from Warmachine and Hordes by taking over the entirety of the Iron Kingdoms in a series of turns where games of Brawlmachine are the deciding factor! Four or more players battle it out for the throne of the entire continent, come check out the 1.0 rules here!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine/2021/7/29/diplomachine-10

In recent Trying to Give Money to PP + Support My LGS news, I called up my local shop to have them order me some stuff I apparently need to play Mk3 now (spoiler: 2x archons + 1x riot quest solo), and was told that PP's order minimum for retailers is $600, or at least it is for whatever tier my store is. Dude was apologetic and lamented that this also means he can't order his own stuff either until local players decide it's worth waiting instead of going to MM or PP itself ...

But anyway, I'm gearing up to play some Brawlmachine soon, plus dragged my eternally WIP Cryx out of storage! Unexpected WMH developments!

Is that from PP direct of the distributor? I would think that would be more a distributor capping things like that as PP would have no reason to put a cap like that in place.

I know that distributors are weary of PP right now and its messing with PP's ability to get things into local retailers through that network. PP might well need to find more affordable ways to direct mail content to retailers but that might well not be practical at this point in time with the global postage issues.

From what my store has told me ordering direct from PP the minimum order is $350 their cost. So roughly $600 retail.

They can order less but they don't receive the same discount and are charged shipping.

I did have them look up a primal archon for me and not a single distributor they deal with had one. So they are still screwing the retailers. Half the point of ordering from a third party distributor is because you can roll in small orders from multiple companies.

I want to give them money but they make it difficult.

 Overread wrote:

I know that distributors are weary of PP right now and its messing with PP's ability to get things into local retailers through that network. PP might well need to find more affordable ways to direct mail content to retailers but that might well not be practical at this point in time with the global postage issues.

Distributors are going down right and left these days and have been for 2-3 years. Mainly because the big miniature companies (GW and Asmodee) have set up their own distribution system (in many cases buying up existing distributors and throwing all other product out of those lines) and boardgames have given all of their profits to Kickstarter for the last decade or so. PP kickstarting stuff is not helping, but they are hardly the only small to medium miniature company doing this, and at the very least they have excellent retailer discounts on their KS even if KS eats up a bit of the retailer's profit. This has led to distributors cutting back on warehouse space and PP's SKU bloat was not well suited to that model.

I think PP need to get better at direct distribution to stores as a result, or use stores as distributors and give them better discounts and/or free shipping (especially internationally) but right now, there are severe issues everywhere. I don't think GW's trouble getting enough boxes out there for people is intentional, neither do I think Asmodee (i.e. Atomic Mass) really WANT to be unable to send our LGS anything except the latest releases for MCP and Legion (they stopped answering emails about old product some time ago, apparently).

This is what I have been told by some store owners in the UK. I travel around for work and try to go to FLGS in town, if nothing else to just kill some time. I have been traveling again recently and this is what I have been told by some store owners both now and before the pandemic. How true it is, I can’t gauge but iv been told similar things by several stores when talking about PP. But if im wrong and the store owners are wrong..... then im wrong :-)

1) Many store owners genuinely don’t want anything to do with PP since the botched MK3 launch and the other bridges that were burnt around that time with B&M stores. Some are not even aware that PP is still going. “poor dead company that doesn’t sell enough to justify my shelf space”. “is the company still in business…..?” "havent heard of that game in years...."

2) The remaining distro to the UK does not prioritise PP stock. This means that stores who order through them often have to wait until there are enough orders nationally before they will be forfilled. This means you either have to wait ages or stores just don’t bother.

3) This means getting the newest hotness in time and releases can be slow. There are only so many WM/H players in the UK and those numbers are not growing Once the community has what they need, nobody buys any more. So unless you can get it quick, there is no point and the die hard fans will just order direct

4) Stores can set up a direct link with PP outside of standard distro. One or two big B&M/webstores have done so. However for this to be worth for the store so they need to almost guarantee turnover. Which means that they have to prioritise new items over old items. Most old items can be picked up on the 2nd hard market for tuppence, so stores don’t bother.

5) Community just isn’t big enough in the UK or open enough for most stores to invest time in. Better off investing in other game systems like infinity, malifaux, MCP etc as these all have a good customer base and no issues/stress getting stock and the stock shifts regularly.

And that's why they need their PG or similar scheme working again. PP's biggest issue right now is growing their actual market. If they can't grow they can't secure new and better ways to work with retailers and such

A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

Things is most/many games companies didn't. Wyrd/Malifaux still has theirs. I believe Infinity has one. Moonstone has one (my friend is part of it). And so on. I don't know the in and out of what they entail, if they get rewards or if its just a formally recognised volunteer. But again, if similar sized companies can do it successfully, why not PP

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.

I mean in the end PG's had to start out with PP being small and not well established early on. It's just PP lost their market hold and has to start all over again. It would certainly at least help secure their fanbase where they've already got support and perhaps grow things there.

If nothing else at least shore up what they've got; work on getting stuff into the hands of more retailers and then use the PG to help maximise impact in those areas.

On its own it won't help,, but its an almost essential tool for a company that doesn't have their own retailers with employees doing that job for them.

MarkNorfolk wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.

Out of interest, what would it take for you as a FLGS in the UK to stock PP stuff again? Do you see a way back for the company from a retail PoV and given all the other games on offer?

 Overread wrote:
I mean in the end PG's had to start out with PP being small and not well established early on. It's just PP lost their market hold and has to start all over again. It would certainly at least help secure their fanbase where they've already got support and perhaps grow things there.

If nothing else at least shore up what they've got; work on getting stuff into the hands of more retailers and then use the PG to help maximise impact in those areas.

On its own it won't help,, but its an almost essential tool for a company that doesn't have their own retailers with employees doing that job for them.

It won't help much if the LGS won't stock them because of their predatory selling habits.

I talked to the owners of a new LGS here and they won't touch PP stuff because they would buy something to sell, then watch PP price them out on their online store. That makes it much harder for them to sell it.

In theory if PP gets their act together they won't have to keep doing those big discount boxed sets to clear inventory

Sunno wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.

Out of interest, what would it take for you as a FLGS in the UK to stock PP stuff again? Do you see a way back for the company from a retail PoV and given all the other games on offer?

Something amazing I guess. How can they tempt me into stocking it again? Stonking new sculpts and complete relaunch? Basically starting afresh? With really cheap starters to act as loss leaders? A return to small armies and a focus on friendly play? A license to use a baseball bat on anyone who invokes 'Page 5'? A pledge that they'll stop using Kickstarter? There's too many stages between me an PP so 'Sale or Return' isn't going to work. And what do I drop to make way for WM/H? Marvel Crisis Protocol? Star Wars Legion? My D&D stock?

It's too late. The state of the game, the player base, the company - Warmachine/Hordes (second-rate games don't deserve capitals) is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

I've got a nice little thing going with Monsterpocalypse though. :-)

 Overread wrote:
In theory if PP gets their act together they won't have to keep doing those big discount boxed sets to clear inventory

a lot of what i've seen from the last big box sale felt like them clearing stuff they plan on maybe changing materials on or something, plus a bunch of the plushies and pins

given how decent their resin has become, seeing that used for starter boxes instead of the less then great sorta plastic the 3rd ed ones are in would be nice

MarkNorfolk wrote:

Sunno wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.

Out of interest, what would it take for you as a FLGS in the UK to stock PP stuff again? Do you see a way back for the company from a retail PoV and given all the other games on offer?

Something amazing I guess. How can they tempt me into stocking it again? Stonking new sculpts and complete relaunch? Basically starting afresh? With really cheap starters to act as loss leaders? A return to small armies and a focus on friendly play? A license to use a baseball bat on anyone who invokes 'Page 5'? A pledge that they'll stop using Kickstarter? There's too many stages between me an PP so 'Sale or Return' isn't going to work. And what do I drop to make way for WM/H? Marvel Crisis Protocol? Star Wars Legion? My D&D stock?

It's too late. The state of the game, the player base, the company - Warmachine/Hordes (second-rate games don't deserve capitals) is dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

I've got a nice little thing going with Monsterpocalypse though. :-)

Thats pretty grim reading but expected from my POV.

Again a question, you must talk to other store owners right? Not like a secret masonic get together but you must know each other or at least those in you area or county? Is the feedback I hear and your response "the norm" when it comes to PP? Do you hear anything positive about the company and game for others? Is there any hype or interest in their other products like RQ, Warcaster and MonPoc? Or is it all viewed as one entity? Just curious.

The current miniature environment now is the same space as Battetech is in. And just like Battletech, the game is NOT dead and they are still selling product and there is alot of community involvement.

https://www.loswarmachine.com/brawlmachine

What it does mean is that the PP, community, and FLGS need to change.

PP needs to re-evaluate its online store policy. With permenant inflation hitting and predicated not stop hitting and wages not catching up, I would be surprised to see much of a hobby scene period except for vets with a huge back stock of models playing. PP needs to allow online markets to buy existing stock in volume and sell. Those old days 25% discounts out of some dudes garage may move from "predatory" to necessity.

Community needs to realize that days of buying a miniature game that is not GW, WoTC, and Asmodee are pretty much over. Buy your miniatures online, and support your local game store by buying venue food, hobby supplies/accessories, and terrain. This goes for all of it PP, Wyrd, CB, Mantic, etc. (something Battletech community has been doing forever)

FLGS stores need to understand, we are not going to be force feed into a game we have not interest in playing. While it is easier to get people into GW, WoTC, Asmodee for them, not one game is suitable for everybody.

If the entire industry went up in flames and 40k and AoS were the only ones left standing. Plenty of people from every other game would just put up our toys and play video games. People who play other games and settings are not doing it because they hate 40k and AoS. The setting/aethestic/ruleset is just not for them.

Especially with the current and worsening economic condition (at least here in America) FLGS stores may need to be okay with players who buy games from cheaper online warehouses put come in and support the store through other purchases.

marxlives wrote:

Especially with the current and worsening economic condition (at least here in America) FLGS stores may need to be okay with players who buy games from cheaper online warehouses put come in and support the store through other purchases.

Most stores are ok so long as they've some system for getting some profit from those customers. Eg pay to play tables; food outlets or otherwise. Sure more gamers means more games for existing customers, but this isn't the MOBA market where you're dealing with hundreds/thousands of customers coming through your door. Local real world stores can't afford to have too many free-loaders. OF course its on the store to find those other revenue streams, food is a popular one, but so too are cheaper accessories and such. Small temptations.

Sure, shops talk to each other, but if there is a PP circle, I'm not part of it. I'm sure some of them must have a WM/H group...

...but I don't. I don't force any game on anyone. I support and sell what my customers want. And right now nobody wants WM/H.

If some people came in wanting to play then sure. I have 4x4 playmats, objective markers and scenery. If they want to order stock in I have a supplier. But there is nobody.

 Overread wrote:
Most stores are ok so long as they've some system for getting some profit from those customers. Eg pay to play tables; food outlets or otherwise. Sure more gamers means more games for existing customers, but this isn't the MOBA market where you're dealing with hundreds/thousands of customers coming through your door. Local real world stores can't afford to have too many free-loaders. OF course its on the store to find those other revenue streams, food is a popular one, but so too are cheaper accessories and such. Small temptations.

We have a place here in the Phoenix Valley that I don't think is a store (too far away for a drop-by visit), but they do have a liquor license. It is one of the more common meeting spots for WarmaHordes right now, at least so long as the government doesn't shut it down again.

MarkNorfolk wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.

We built it up from 2 players to 50-60 without any of them being Press Gangers in an environment where the LGS told us there was no chance of taking in any PP stock again, so I am certain it is possible.

Sunno wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

Things is most/many games companies didn't. Wyrd/Malifaux still has theirs. I believe Infinity has one. Moonstone has one (my friend is part of it). And so on. I don't know the in and out of what they entail, if they get rewards or if its just a formally recognised volunteer. But again, if similar sized companies can do it successfully, why not PP

That's because the whole press gangers going away because of the MTG lawsuit is a myth. It was because the program was too large and unmanageable and Privateer couldn't keep it running well (it was more work then one person full time could do). They've talked about this before but people keep on getting stuck on the MTG lawsuit for whatever stupid reason.

Press Gangers won't bring the game back partly because lack of organized play isn't the only large problem the game has from everything the past 2 years of these threads have taught me.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
A reinstatement of something PG-ish would be a good idea, yes. While everyone and their grandmother dropped such programs when the MTG litigation case appeared, the fears do no appear to have been justified. And it is fully possible to grow PP games locally. With more support it would be easier.

It might be too late. Is a new Press Ganger going to have much joy in a store that doesn't stock WM/H? Is a store going to reinvest in WM/H again just because a bright-eyed PG rocks up and promises to demo? As a small town game shop owner in the UK, I'm in the 'no' camp.

We built it up from 2 players to 50-60 without any of them being Press Gangers in an environment where the LGS told us there was no chance of taking in any PP stock again, so I am certain it is possible.

I've seen large groups of D&D organized play crumble because the one person doing all the work stopped because of life and no one else wanting to do it for free (as it's a lot of work to have 4-5 games going) and it took a long time to come back at that store. Things like PG are a flawed system that relies on only one person to set up and organize everything. The community as a whole (locally) and the game store/club need to have some shared ownership/responsibility in keeping things going and not some sanctioned official who doesn't get paid and puts way more work into then they should and get burned out. The community needs to stop waiting for one person to do all the work and do it themselves collectively if they want to see more play.

Turns out when you add "...and the extra time & effort to build a new community" to the price of a Wargame's rulebook those Warhammer ones seem a lot cheaper. Like it or not, that's the reality.

The MTG lawsuit definitely was the event that triggered the Press Gang getting disbanded, but yes, as I have written elsewhere, the Gang was getting unmanageable. It was very large, and there was sadly many PG's that reported events without really putting in the work. It was, as you say, getting difficult to handle. But to call it a myth is overdramatic. It was one of a number of factors that led them to remove it.

The community needs to take responsibility for its own games, yes. But there will always be someone who does more heavy lifting than others. That applies for the local kid football team or film club as much as it does for miniatures wargaming. The PG (or Outrider, or Warcor, or Henchman, or whatever) program is just a way to reward those people for putting in the extra work. After the PG program ended, the people who either had just become PGs or were planning to be (and replace me as I went into my new house+kids phase) still did a lot of that work. I don't know if they would have been more active if they had been PGs, but I am fairly certain they would have spent more time doing demos and outreach rather than organizing a lot of tournaments, which was closer to their interests at the time.

I think a formal PG system helps because it provides support and standards through the system. It's also a title and a thing someone can be proud of which helps their motivation.

Don't forget you had to own 2 starter forces in good condition and pass some basic tests of rules competence and such. There's also the comradery of working within a team even if you're all over the country/world.
Plus you can share ideas with each other - sometimes you've got local people who really want a game to get popular and have no idea how to do it. Or they do one demo game and it doesn't catch and they give up after one try etc...


A support network that's formally run (so it keeps going) is a very powerful tool. Indeed many hobbies have them - the people who organise local football events are often members of associations and groups that help link up other groups; providing support, bonuses, opportunities and just a basic network of communication to allow for inter-group events and the like.

It allows sharing and pooling of resources and knowledge.



PP really took a dive due to multiple things at once, but shutting down the PG system was certainly one of the more major nails in the coffin I think. PP could do a lot to start outreach again and today I'd say PG would be one part of that - the other would be social media content creators.
There's a lot PP can do cheaply and with little cost to themselves to help promote their position.

PG in my local area really helped cultivate a scene and was great.

The final nail in the coffin for my entire area was Theme-machine. Either you played in theme at start of 3rd ed and get massive bonus vs the majority of casual players who just wanted to play with their models and have fun.

Factor in the CID elements and it was too much to keep up with in addition to models being a PITA to actually buy locally just made everyone lose interest and go to GW, Legion, Maulifaux, KoW. Hell all other games and its sad my trollbloods sit on a shelf now days :( (Mountain King remains one of the nicest wargaming models I own and I adore using it whenver I can, no matter the system)

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
The MTG lawsuit definitely was the event that triggered the Press Gang getting disbanded, but yes, as I have written elsewhere, the Gang was getting unmanageable. It was very large, and there was sadly many PG's that reported events without really putting in the work. It was, as you say, getting difficult to handle. But to call it a myth is overdramatic. It was one of a number of factors that led them to remove it.

It's a myth because Privateer has denied it was a factor. The fans inserted it as being the reason because it was happening at the same time and PP complete and utter lack of communication on it. I don't know how else to really describe it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Turns out when you add "...and the extra time & effort to build a new community" to the price of a Wargame's rulebook those Warhammer ones seem a lot cheaper. Like it or not, that's the reality.

This is a very true statement. That's a huge reason why the largest games in their area (Warhammer stuff, D&D and so on) will always be top dog bar any horrible mismanagement like the kirby era and 4e D&D. But those down trends also show how easily they can come back because how much their community wants them too. People left and wanted to come back. With Warmahordes that's not really the case and it's a much smaller percent that does but privateer really hasn't gone though the work the other two companies did to bring back their fan base (new editions, change in policies, etc).

I think a big part of that is the fundamental problem is their SKU offerings. They need a massive revamp in the way their game is sold to adapt to the changes in the market and I suspect they know that it will likely require some major changes to the game to go along with it. I'd wager they know what they need to do and likely have been working on it for several years now; but a project of that scope could take several more.

The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure

Retailers only put up with SKU bloat if a game is selling. Infinity will hit a point where their popularity doesn't equal the SKUs and they'll be in a similar bind. I'm not sure how to solve a problem like that where you've got over 10 years of models that are all valid in the game outside of a yearly restricted tourney list like Magic does. The problem with that on a mins game is people spend a lot more time and money on an average army compared to getting an average deck in magic so having them not be usable for a year or two would be a real slap in the face for most I would think.

I'm not sure CB's route of keeping the units game legal but just stop producing them works either. Though I guess Privateer is much more willing to cast on demand then CB so they could just cycle out what they'll put into general distribution.

 Overread wrote:


Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure

PP's resin is one of the few shining points they have as it's arguably the best in the industry for detail and durability. Not really sure if that would be worth giving up for siocast.

Modiphius was looking at it, same type of plastic/molds from a different vender, and they had a lot of issues with detail on humans and bendy weapons which is why they stuck with resin and did some HIPS kits. Privateer stuff is chonkier so it might work better with siocast or something similar then the true scale stuff from Modiphius.

I think Infinity's angle of just randomly stopping production of models only works because the nature of the game and the scale means that a lot of their models are - at arms distance - pretty generic in design (warrior with sword/gun). They don't even make every weapon option for multi-weapon models.

So I think their playerbase is just very used to proxies and the small scale of the game lets it work.

They've also in part got away at times - like dropping a lot of the old Combined army - because the old sculpts are poorer in style. Though dropping chunks of Tohaa and Aleph is more controversial - esp as a good chunk of the recent Aleph they dropped were more modern sculpts.

 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/firelockgames/blood-and-plunder-raise-the-black

Saw this in a thread today in Dakka news - a game I've never heard of, by a company I've never heard of (but has apparently been producing that game in metal for a while) just finished a Kickstarter and raised almost $400,000 to produce a nice hard plastic 2 player starter set plus a few extra hard plastic unit boxes. Tell me again why PP couldn't do this with Warcaster - or doesn't do this for a MKIV WM/H reboot? They could easily hit $1M (or more) and make enough to cover the costs of making starter kits for the "Big 4" factions for each game.

I previously collected Warmachine in mk2. Was thinking of collecting again only learn how bad things have become in mk3. Mk3 is sort of like the PP equivalent of 40k 5th edition.

Personally I think PP needs to to ditch mk3 in it's entirety and bring back mk2.

candy.man wrote:
I previously collected Warmachine in mk2. Was thinking of collecting again only learn how bad things have become in mk3. Mk3 is sort of like the PP equivalent of 40k 5th edition.

Personally I think PP needs to to ditch mk3 in it's entirety and bring back mk2.

As a ruleset, Mk 3 is actually pretty good. Where the problem generally lies is how they handled the Themes (too much like 40K 7th Ed) and how toxicly focused on Steamroller a lot of groups became. Then there are the Archons are a representation of some of the power creep that was brought in to encourage sales.

Schmapdi wrote:

 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Resin might let them lower some costs, but not a huge number. This new plastic injection moulding process that Infinity and Creature Caster and a few others are messing with could be PP's answer. Good detail, likely works well with existing metal model mould designs and concepts (its silicon moulds) and likely more affordable and in-house compared to their last plastic adventure

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/firelockgames/blood-and-plunder-raise-the-black

Saw this in a thread today in Dakka news - a game I've never heard of, by a company I've never heard of (but has apparently been producing that game in metal for a while) just finished a Kickstarter and raised almost $400,000 to produce a nice hard plastic 2 player starter set plus a few extra hard plastic unit boxes. Tell me again why PP couldn't do this with Warcaster - or doesn't do this for a MKIV WM/H reboot? They could easily hit $1M (or more) and make enough to cover the costs of making starter kits for the "Big 4" factions for each game.

Cause their kits don't work well in HIPS and the past ones they did sold very poorly (this has come up many times in this thread). Some because design (very top heavy) just aren't suited for plastic kits, others because they were inexperienced and designed horribly hard kits to build. They've been fire selling the HIPS kits via the mystery boxes for almost 2 years now. I don't think HIPS is as needed as people seam to think it is to be successful. It's pretty overrated in my opinion but I also hate assembling models so take that for what it's worth.

Mk3 as a ruleset is probably the best on the market. The balance is also very good. although that is also an issue for some people because it is Theme List - related. People have understandable issues with Theme lists (some faction's preferred list are essentially Soup) and RQ models (as well as the Steamroller focus, but I don't see that locally). I got back after a two-year hiatus (children+house) and am having a lot of fun with Brawlmachine although we haven't gotten around to playing 75 pts games so far.

Schmapdi wrote:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/firelockgames/blood-and-plunder-raise-the-black

Saw this in a thread today in Dakka news - a game I've never heard of, by a company I've never heard of (but has apparently been producing that game in metal for a while) just finished a Kickstarter and raised almost $400,000 to produce a nice hard plastic 2 player starter set plus a few extra hard plastic unit boxes. Tell me again why PP couldn't do this with Warcaster - or doesn't do this for a MKIV WM/H reboot? They could easily hit $1M (or more) and make enough to cover the costs of making starter kits for the "Big 4" factions for each game.

Blood and Plunder have been along for 8 years (official release was 2016 but I have a kit from them from 2015) and Firelock is a pretty well-established game in the historical miniatures games scene. They have 3 games out already and did well with 2019's Oak and Iron as well. This is more like doing a KS for Mk4 (which I do not think they will do) than launching an entirely new game. There never was much doubt that they'd try to get into plastics because the game requires 28mm ship models, which they did in resin back in 2015-16 and probably did not earn much on per kit and people scratch built (and 3d printed them these last 4 years) like crazy. I haven't played Blood and Plunder but I really like what I've seen of Oak and Iron.

As people have noted, it doesn't seem like PP's Injection Molding kits were a success and they also had a lot of trouble with their chinese manufacturer.

I think the other issue with MK3 is that one thing PP grew on was "rules in the box on the card". IT was a simple system of a buying a model and using the card. You didn't need a "codex" or an App or anything. Simple out of the box and worked.

MK3 tied itself into an online fast change system that fast left the physical elements behind and it became more of a computer game style of balancing. Which has benefits, but also drawbacks and one is disconnection from phyiscal media. The other is fast change. In a PC game that's fine because its all handled by the computer, in a physical game its not.

I think it nudges out casual people and those who don't tie into the online parts all the time. As much as we hate GW's style of book after book their system does work at keeping physical and digital as side by side rather than one trumping the other.

Perhaps. I couldn't imagine to go back to the paper chaos I see most GW players having, though. All my other non-WmH games (both PP and others) use cards, but the Warroom app is super convenient.

Gw's paper chaos is part their own making though.


Eg recently Slaanesh in AoS got a new Battletome - weeks later they got a campaign book with 2 new models and new rules in that book - then weeks later all the points went up as MK3 hit the shelves; then MK3 also made a few subtle changes to key elements


Basically with a bit of internal planning GW could have placed all that content into the MK3 Battletome. Instead they released a sort of 2.9 edition that then got updated twice very fast after. Even accepting covid messing up some things, its still a mess of paper that GW could have resolved on their own through better internal planning and organisation/communication.


The issue isn't the use of battletome and rulebook and indeed with the Generals Handbook they've given a spiral bound copy of the rules and rules alone (which has the only issue that they didn't increase the font size when downsizing it).

The issue is the messy release pattern.

 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Personally I think they need to take the plunge and gut the range (do we really need eg kossites sword knights and long gunners? Do.we really need all those warcasters?) and consolidate what's left.

I think gutting is the wrong move right now because all it will do is annoy long term fans, which is mostly all they've got. If they gut the range heavily then long term fans will be annoyed; new fans will only experience that secondhand and it also sends a "we've run out of money we are dumping this" message.

I think the best thing is to do what GW has done for decades - don't gut the range, consolidate and update the range. Perhaps one or two troop choices become multi-part models; update the sculpts of the core models so that you don't have to release any more army bloat. Long term fans wil lstill buy updated models to add to their collection and new fans will see a game getting "updated".

It avoids the issues of army bloat and it means that you retain happy long term fans and have something attractive for new fans - brand new models.

I agree. Some form of consolidation is the best solution. It does not even have to invalidate models, depending on how you do it.

 Overread wrote:
I think gutting is the wrong move right now because all it will do is annoy long term fans, which is mostly all they've got. If they gut the range heavily then long term fans will be annoyed; new fans will only experience that secondhand and it also sends a "we've run out of money we are dumping this" message.

Sadly you are correct. It's the thing that's needed (the broad and burden of knowledge I the game is detrimental at this point- the game needs to be dramatically slimmed down) but there is no way the company will proceed with this option for the reasons you listed.

I think instead they're leaving wmh as a backwater game, and just keeping it on life support and instead, investing their energies into warcaster etc which isn't bloated or burdened by fifteen odd years of history and which might also benefit from fifteen odd years of 'lessons learned'.

 Overread wrote:
I think the best thing is to do what GW has done for decades - don't gut the range, consolidate and update the range. Perhaps one or two troop choices become multi-part models; update the sculpts of the core models so that you don't have to release any more army bloat. Long term fans wil lstill buy updated models to add to their collection and new fans will see a game getting "updated".

Except GW does gut their range, but subtly and over time as they stop building old models in one codex's life and then drop them in the next, meanwhile introducing new models to "replace" them (sometimes literally like the Rhino, sometimes figuratively like the Primaris).

PP never got in to that habit. Still, it won't be that hard to do some reductions of Warcasters, if nothing else that there isn't that much difference between some of their variants other than looks, such as Magnus, Vlad on foot, or Madrax with an axe. Just consolidate them up and either provide options on the "card" or just ignore the differences all together.

-----------------------------------------------------

As for the card updates... yeah, those should have been released on a "seasonal" basis along with changes in Steamroller (aside from errata) as a pdf and/or a faction update pack. It would have been consistent at least instead of the jerking around that GW did. It also would have been closer to the steady progression of Mk 2 and Mk 1 which I think is partly what people enjoyed about them compared to GW's style. While getting updates to your faction is nice, previously you would get an update with the next book instead of only having 1/10-1/4 of your army looked at once every 3-4 years.

GW does gut, but TYPICALLY its one or two models here and often as not they replace them with four or five more so its not as harsh. They also tend to swing back around and bring back old things too.

They have gutted whole armies in the past, but that's often rare. Heck until AoS it was super rare - and AoS was a unique situation of bad management.



PP I think was steadily trying to consolidate; they did it with warjacks going into plastic. It's just their material wasn't popular.

I mean... they have. Just because Long Gunners technically exist does not mean they're still in the game in any sort of meaningful way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
The problem is every time they try and reduce their SKU they are boxing up fairly big metal models so the price ends up into £100-150 type boxes. Good value for the material, but it shifts the problem. Now you've got a smaller SKU, but a much much bigger buy in price.

Ultimately no matter how good a game is doesn't really matter if there's not a way to sell it. PP either needs to find a way to make affordable box sets or they need to change the game in such a way so that what it takes to play it can be sold in an affordable box set.

This is one of the big things that annoyed me with infinity (and I think N4 releases fixes the problem mostly) as it's an affordable game but the models were not sold in such a way as all the starter boxes weren't playable as a team and you really only wanted half in a list with other models. Yes infinity a lot of the units are good and everything you bought was playable, but just not together.

They basically made you buy a bunch of boxes to build a list for a faction and you'd only use half of what you bought. So they took what should have been affordable and made it unaffordable on purpose. Even had the gaul to call some of them starter boxes.

At the same time a lot of their options never have models and a good many are fairly similar in pose - proxies work well in their system (part by necessity). They do work with the FOMO system though, perhaps more than GW.

If Aleph weren't all so "samey" as such I'd have pounced on a load of the Steel Legion they dropped around christmas (which was surprising as many of them were newer)

 Overread wrote:
At the same time a lot of their options never have models and a good many are fairly similar in pose - proxies work well in their system (part by necessity). They do work with the FOMO system though, perhaps more than GW.

If Aleph weren't all so "samey" as such I'd have pounced on a load of the Steel Legion they dropped around christmas (which was surprising as many of them were newer)

And even then, Infinity is looking at maybe a Brawlmachine's worth of solos, so updating one's list is about as bad as doing Battletech. Meanwhile, when we look at all the new units from PP costing about 50% more than previously, it's a hard check and quickly has buyers going "no" more than "yes".

 Charistoph wrote:

 Overread wrote:
At the same time a lot of their options never have models and a good many are fairly similar in pose - proxies work well in their system (part by necessity). They do work with the FOMO system though, perhaps more than GW.

If Aleph weren't all so "samey" as such I'd have pounced on a load of the Steel Legion they dropped around christmas (which was surprising as many of them were newer)

And even then, Infinity is looking at maybe a Brawlmachine's worth of solos, so updating one's list is about as bad as doing Battletech. Meanwhile, when we look at all the new units from PP costing about 50% more than previously, it's a hard check and quickly has buyers going "no" more than "yes".

That's true for most lists in N3 but you could have some with 20 models if you really tried. But you're general point is very true. A lot of lists for infinity are 12 models.

Selling more models and increasing the size/scope of the game is a very seductive thing and PP fell for it. I remember as it grew in size people complained but PP always said "lower point games are available so you don't need to buy more" then, as always happens, the official tournaments drifted to the larger scale which is where the community went and still is and they're going to have a real problem pulling it back down even with a complete reboot.

Hell they couldn't even make company of iron a small skirmish game. Bought it as that's what I wanted (no caster kill skirmish in IK) and ya, it's just not that. I think the starter box came with like 15 models per side.

I think the problem for PP is that as they grew Warmachine and Hordes the sales were good, but by the end of MK2 they kind of had a split btween those who wanted a tight competitive skirmish game and those who were moving it toward being a wargame. In the end the more diverse your model range the more models your customers will end up owning and the more of them they want to use. When you've a game that takes hours to play so you might only play once or twice a week, you then have to find a way to keep both camps happy.


GW has done it by sinking money into marketing and promoting separate versions of the game. Warcry, Killteam etc... are marketed as much as the core game. This is something new and its worked well; in the past we had Killteam but it was side rules in the rule book and it wasn't marketed at all really - same as PP it was there as an option but it wasn't focused on.

The other option is what PP is trying with Warcaster - having an active sideboard during the game itself. 15 units per side and you summon in what you want with anything that leaves/dies being re-summonable. You can basically put any 15 you want plus 3 heroes and 16 if you make some of your choices a cadre to get a 4th special character model). So right now you've got a potential max of 19 models.

And its a system they can easily grow or shrink.

It's an interesting approach because it lets you have diversity, it lets you feel you can use more of your collection even if you never actually summon it to the table; it gets a bit away from the super-efficient army choices that can sometimes dominate competitive play (you can now include niche units and just not call upon them if they aren't needed); and it scales itself well with an expanding model roster.

In fairness to pp, one thing they've always done is push forward and innovate. Back with early mk2, id often argued they were amongst the movers and shakers in the industry - a lot of other companies, gw included, aped their approach.

And while its not for me (yet, at least!), warcaster does have some very interesting ideas - the 'pointless' nature of the game in favour of summoning/unit cap and damage mods based on more accurate hits are very interesting to me.

If you missed the first game of the Brawlmachine Team Championship Finals, the VoD is up on YouTube for your viewing pleasure! We have a firecracker of a game between Kryssa and Helga 2 to kick things off!

https://youtu.be/vGFEQ_pb2qc

 Overread wrote:
I think the problem for PP is that as they grew Warmachine and Hordes the sales were good, but by the end of MK2 they kind of had a split btween those who wanted a tight competitive skirmish game and those who were moving it toward being a wargame. In the end the more diverse your model range the more models your customers will end up owning and the more of them they want to use. When you've a game that takes hours to play so you might only play once or twice a week, you then have to find a way to keep both camps happy.

My experience was that MK2 really buckled as the new player experience dried up. There just wasn't a good way to jump into the game. A big part of that is just that Battlebox games, while a great learning tool, aren't really any fun once you have any experience with the system. A lot of games systems fall apart as soon as a player learns they can back up, and Warmachine is really guilty of this without Steamroller. With zero real support for small game scenarios and an increasing push in SR towards less and less room for error at full size that made them increasingly ill suited for anything less, it just got legitimately not fun to play anything more suitable for new players..

I think the other issue with MK2 was tricks with the system. Eg you had move run and charge, but practically everyone experienced never ran, they declared charges that would fail. Things that weren't breaking the rules, but twisting them just slightly. Things that unless you're shown or think that way you might not find out - until someone does it to you a few times.

Granted you can get that with any system, but MK2 seemed to have much more of it than others. Indeed most times you see someone trying to do that with 40K its often a clear miss reading or interpretation of the rules they are trying to bend

That seems like a trick everyone should learn in their very first game. I teach it in demos. It's pretty standard first turn plan that definitely didn't go away in MK3.

EDIT: Thinking about that a little more, one of the great oddities is trying to decide how much to teach in a demo. In Warmachine while explaining movement I've always had a checklist of Walk/Run/Charge and then explain casters can't spell/feat and run but can do so before charging as a way of getting that info across right away. A game where I had a worse issue with this sort of thing was Guild Ball, where counter attacks deny so many options to the point its really hard to teach with them, but really rough on players regardless of where they first encounter them.

When comes to Warcaster, I thnk you just do more of a dojo approach. Yes teach the game basics but as the player grows, as an EO, also see yourself as a coach.

Try to coach games rather than play games with players who you are going against as a community leader.

There is alot of nuance in PP games in general and I think the failure is when you do something cool, dont be afraid to hit the rewind button and coach the opponent on how they could do it too.

Making it a learning experience rather than a competitive experience when it comes to players playing agianst you and the community will shine with stars in the end.

 Overread wrote:


GW has done it by sinking money into marketing and promoting separate versions of the game. Warcry, Killteam etc... are marketed as much as the core game. This is something new and its worked well; in the past we had Killteam but it was side rules in the rule book and it wasn't marketed at all really - same as PP it was there as an option but it wasn't focused on.

I think this is the best thing GW has done for the hobby/industry for quite some time. Shows you can use the same models for lots of different games and people will buy them and use them in various games as some of their smaller games does seam to be doing quite well. I don't even play GW games and I have some Warcry stuff as I like the more sword and sorcery look of some of the warbands in it.

I agree I think its a really smart move and it actually hits two core markets.

1) Newbies

2) Oldies

Newbies need those smaller games to tease them in. One of the biggest barriers of mature wargames is that most experienced players have big armies and they want to play big games and the newbie sees those big armies and wants to join in. Old World was really brutal with it as below 1K it didn't really work well and even until 1.5K it was a bit wobbly for some armies. That's a big barrier just to buy and build let alone paint

Warcry and Killteam are small and fast; Underworld is faster still you can clip and play in 5 mins for a basic getting started.


Oldies might have a big collection but can have less time or less time in single big blocks. So suddenly a big promoted game like Warcry which can be setup, started and played out really fast works great; underworld again works even better for speed. You get to engage with varied models nad get some gaming but without the 3-5 hours of a big 1K or 2K game.

The push to fit/glueless models some of the games use were a great idea. Same quality/material for the entry points and a fraction of the effort that you'll still want to use as you buy more models. Unlike the PP battleboxes where you wanted to dump what was in them once you bought into the game more.

Though the 2 player starter set contents were actually pretty nice material.

Pushfit also let them market to boardgame markets outside of just wargamers. Which is a good way to slowly branch out with a core product into other sectors to draw in customers.


GW is nothing if not creative and dedicated (esp right now) to recruiting and reaching out to new customers. It's honestly something I think a lot of people don't really appreciate. A huge amount of the wargamer market which isn't GW are just GW customers who have branched out to try other things. Sadly most other firms don't have GW's resources to do as much direct marketing and outreach. Certainly in the UK I'd wager the majority of wargamers (who aren't historical which seems to be its own thing like Hornby and such); likely came to it through GW in some form.

FOUR DAYS LEFT!!! I am not exaggerating when I say that this terrain STL kickstarter is the most incredible third party offering for Warmachine and Hordes players in all of mk3. I am absolutely floored by the style, the quality, and the usability of this terrain. Come read my full review and then spend the meager $20 required to own STLs for over 20 incredibly thematic pieces of terrain for the Iron Kingdoms.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tomwiggins/bulldozer-terrain-0

https://www.loswarmachine.com/reviews/2021/8/10/bulldozer-terrain-kickstarter-review

 Overread wrote:
I agree I think its a really smart move and it actually hits two core markets.

1) Newbies

2) Oldies

Newbies need those smaller games to tease them in. One of the biggest barriers of mature wargames is that most experienced players have big armies and they want to play big games and the newbie sees those big armies and wants to join in. Old World was really brutal with it as below 1K it didn't really work well and even until 1.5K it was a bit wobbly for some armies. That's a big barrier just to buy and build let alone paint

Warcry and Killteam are small and fast; Underworld is faster still you can clip and play in 5 mins for a basic getting started.


Oldies might have a big collection but can have less time or less time in single big blocks. So suddenly a big promoted game like Warcry which can be setup, started and played out really fast works great; underworld again works even better for speed. You get to engage with varied models nad get some gaming but without the 3-5 hours of a big 1K or 2K game.

Reason why I shifted to using Riot Quest as the primary game. It is fast, fun, gives the basic mechanics of movement, actions, and synergies. At the same time it builds my focus on basically non-GW players. Cannabilizing from GW player base or high hopes of "dominating GW" is like conspiracy theory stuff. That is like a small CCG company "dominating" Hasbaro. Piazo is doing some good moves with Pathfinder, but it isn't going to since DnD. Riot Quest is more about getting new players who never would wargame in their life to get into the hobby. Warmachine Brawlmachine format is more for people who play RQ but want more of the wargame feel.

No game can be all things to all people. While most people play DnD, some people are into Pathfinder, or Shadowrun, or World of Darkness. GW games will always be GW games so the focus should never be on canniblizing from a player base who enjoys the GW rules and grim dark aesthetic. Instead the focus needs to be on people who have never wargamed, and aren't interested in the grimdark or almost Magic the Gathering aesthetic of 40k or AoS. There will always be people who will choose Star Wars or Battletech over 40k on just an thematic or aesthetic level alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 LoS_Jaden wrote:
FOUR DAYS LEFT!!! I am not exaggerating when I say that this terrain STL kickstarter is the most incredible third party offering for Warmachine and Hordes players in all of mk3. I am absolutely floored by the style, the quality, and the usability of this terrain. Come read my full review and then spend the meager $20 required to own STLs for over 20 incredibly thematic pieces of terrain for the Iron Kingdoms.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tomwiggins/bulldozer-terrain-0

https://www.loswarmachine.com/reviews/2021/8/10/bulldozer-terrain-kickstarter-review

This is a really great project. I don't have a 3D printer but I do like that they are going to allow for print and sell once the KS is done.

Brawlmachine changed the way hundreds of people play Warmachine. It only made sense to break out the bigger guns and go for broke with Clashmachine, the new 50 point format in Alpha from Line of Sight! Come check it out!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/clashmachine/2021/8/13/clashmachine-alpha-rules-announcement

 LoS_Jaden wrote:
Brawlmachine changed the way hundreds of people play Warmachine. It only made sense to break out the bigger guns and go for broke with Clashmachine, the new 50 point format in Alpha from Line of Sight! Come check it out!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/clashmachine/2021/8/13/clashmachine-alpha-rules-announcement

YESSSSSSSSSSS 50 point support at last

Started listening to the podcast on this but got sidetracked. Very excited to see what the plan is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Question 1:

2) A player may field a maximum of:
one colossal or gargantuan
one battle engine
one battle engine caster
one structure.

is that one of each of the following or one huge base total?

The army building rules are more or less EXACTLY what I've been hoping for and really loving the direction of the scenario and terrain elements. Going to have to give this a try.

That would be one of each type, you could potentially have a battle engine, structure, colossal, and battle engine caster in your list

An alpha test game for Clashmachine featuring Krueger 2 vs. Haley 3!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/clashmachine/2021/8/17/clashmachine-alpha-test-game-krueger-2-bones-vs-haley-3-storm-division-warmachine-and-hordes-battle-report

I kicked off a new article series aimed at making some off meta models into viable lists, come see what’s getting played in Kitchen Table Warmachine!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/theory-and-tactics/2021/8/18/kitchen-table-warmachine-kromac-2

Content with Krugeur and Kromac ? You cheeky cheeky tease

https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/24/nothing-to-see-here/?fbclid=IwAR2LQQcJeLHTjSOw_0A505q58BbYhoulX5YvY8_9PqkJkBKZcUBpTw2c0zA

Well, I know some people wanted PP to tell us what is going on, so Matt Wilson assaulted his keyboard in a pretty wordy Insider.

Adapting to the modern age is always a good thing, even when it is a decade late.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/24/nothing-to-see-here/?fbclid=IwAR2LQQcJeLHTjSOw_0A505q58BbYhoulX5YvY8_9PqkJkBKZcUBpTw2c0zA

Well, I know some people wanted PP to tell us what is going on, so Matt Wilson assaulted his keyboard in a pretty wordy Insider.

What really wasn't clear for me is if PP are switching to Kickstarter for the next round of wm/h releases i.e. The Orgoth? I know RQ and Warcaster have been KS for the pre-orders prior to hitting normal distro (for shop that want it...). But the insider sort of intimates that all future releases will be KS which would include Orgoth......

If WM/H was to go KS for its releases I think that would kill off any enthusiasm the remaining stores here in the UK who stock PP have. Iv notes that many like Firestorm etc have removed all PP products from their front pages while Malifaux, Infinity etc are sill there.

I think the removal from front page just shows that its no longer the big seller it was a few years back.

That said PP's KS so far hasn't been too bad, the prices through the KS for Warcaster are pretty much the same as those you'd get through the store (stores might even be a touch cheaper)

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/24/nothing-to-see-here/?fbclid=IwAR2LQQcJeLHTjSOw_0A505q58BbYhoulX5YvY8_9PqkJkBKZcUBpTw2c0zA

Well, I know some people wanted PP to tell us what is going on, so Matt Wilson assaulted his keyboard in a pretty wordy Insider.

Interesting.

Orgoth do sound like an interesting idea.

One thing.

4,000 views

In terms of the conversation regarding the decline of pp, is that number significant or misleading, especially when compared to the views gw stuff gets?

well, most of the stuff gets re-posted to the various facebook groups and elsewhere, so there could well be people reading it there instead

Deadnight wrote:

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/24/nothing-to-see-here/?fbclid=IwAR2LQQcJeLHTjSOw_0A505q58BbYhoulX5YvY8_9PqkJkBKZcUBpTw2c0zA

Well, I know some people wanted PP to tell us what is going on, so Matt Wilson assaulted his keyboard in a pretty wordy Insider.

Interesting.

Orgoth do sound like an interesting idea.

One thing.

4,000 views

In terms of the conversation regarding the decline of pp, is that number significant or misleading, especially when compared to the views gw stuff gets?

Their KS campaigns rarely top 2000 backers.
I’d say their community has shrunk by an order of magnitude at the least.

At this point I guess they can't afford the cost and risk of a regular release which involves investment first and profits maybe later. New projects have to be paid for in advance by KS backers.

I'd have expected more discussion of the factors within PP that caused the complete collapse of their community, but it's absent any of that. If your company has experienced such a complete and comprehensive collapse under your watch, self reflection might be helpful in figuring out how to move forward.

Ah well. I'm finishing painting the PP stuff I have and I'll use it in Dungeons and Dragons and Age of Fantasy. Some day Mk2 will be a retro game and I'll be able to find people to play with.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'd have expected more discussion of the factors within PP that caused the complete collapse of their community, but it's absent any of that. If your company has experienced such a complete and comprehensive collapse under your watch, self reflection might be helpful in figuring out how to move forward.

Ah well. I'm finishing painting the PP stuff I have and I'll use it in Dungeons and Dragons and Age of Fantasy. Some day Mk2 will be a retro game and I'll be able to find people to play with.

Part of dealing with an problem is admitting/realising there is a problem in the first place.

PPs management and parts of the community itself doesn't think there is any sort of issue at all.

A lot of companies also don't like to admit to weakness/failure. It's the same as people too - they'd rather either not address it openly or move past it.

 Da Boss wrote:
I'd have expected more discussion of the factors within PP that caused the complete collapse of their community, but it's absent any of that. If your company has experienced such a complete and comprehensive collapse under your watch, self reflection might be helpful in figuring out how to move forward.

Ah well. I'm finishing painting the PP stuff I have and I'll use it in Dungeons and Dragons and Age of Fantasy. Some day Mk2 will be a retro game and I'll be able to find people to play with.

You don't know Matt Wilson at all. People could go on for pages and pages about the internal personal trials and tribulations of the staff and ownership, and how it has influenced the game. An early ex-employee told me back in 2004 that Privateer Press is successful despite Privateer Press. It was inevitable that it would collapse under the exploding popularity and management of the game. The state of the game is a far cry from where it was back in late 00's.

I'm sure there's self-reflection on their failure. I don't think any company does such things in public, though.

Probably worth mentioning that they're planning a Monsterpocalypse Kickstarter:

https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/26/privateer-press-announces-joining-forces-with-mythic-games-for-new-monsterpocalypse-big-box-game/

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Probably worth mentioning that they're planning a Monsterpocalypse Kickstarter:

https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/26/privateer-press-announces-joining-forces-with-mythic-games-for-new-monsterpocalypse-big-box-game/

interesting stuff. A boardgame version would certainly open up sales options in new locations, and depending on price maybe be a nice way for people to bulk out factions or whatnot i guess, i'm not super familiar with the game though i've been often impressed with the models for it

I've dabbled a bit in it, yeah the models are pretty cool. How applicable this will be to people with existing collections depends on price and what exactly they offer.

I'm glad that this is still the same rules version. If they split the community, now THAT would be a mistake.

I have some Monpoc stuff and it is very much a game you can play as a rock-em-sock-em-kaiju funtimes game or go super serious into its competitive aspects.

It also seems to be relatively popular and Mythic's audience might help it grow.

 greenskin lynn wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Probably worth mentioning that they're planning a Monsterpocalypse Kickstarter:

https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/26/privateer-press-announces-joining-forces-with-mythic-games-for-new-monsterpocalypse-big-box-game/

interesting stuff. A boardgame version would certainly open up sales options in new locations, and depending on price maybe be a nice way for people to bulk out factions or whatnot i guess, i'm not super familiar with the game though i've been often impressed with the models for it

Mythic Games, though....
Their enthusiasm outweighs their ability-they've never managed to deliver a campaign on time, and, whilst their miniatures are lovely, their writing and rules leave a lot to be desired.

Nothing inspires a retailer to stock something more than knowing it's already been sold to the core customer base before it hits the streets.

Sure, there're retailer pledges, but having money tied up for months (if not years) with no promise that the product will arrive is not appealing.

But I'm drifting into a different topic....

Tamwulf wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
I'd have expected more discussion of the factors within PP that caused the complete collapse of their community, but it's absent any of that. If your company has experienced such a complete and comprehensive collapse under your watch, self reflection might be helpful in figuring out how to move forward.

Ah well. I'm finishing painting the PP stuff I have and I'll use it in Dungeons and Dragons and Age of Fantasy. Some day Mk2 will be a retro game and I'll be able to find people to play with.

You don't know Matt Wilson at all. People could go on for pages and pages about the internal personal trials and tribulations of the staff and ownership, and how it has influenced the game. An early ex-employee told me back in 2004 that Privateer Press is successful despite Privateer Press. It was inevitable that it would collapse under the exploding popularity and management of the game. The state of the game is a far cry from where it was back in late 00's.

Cyel wrote:I'm sure there's self-reflection on their failure. I don't think any company does such things in public, though.

It's something a professor once called the "curse of entrepreneurism." Basically, the traits, skills, and attributes that are required to create a new company around a new product are often detrimental to the long term stewardship of the company. So, founding a company and creating a new product requires a borderline arrogant confidence in your abilities and the value of the product, but once the market turns away, it takes different skills to retool.

It's also known as "founder's syndrome." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder%27s_syndrome

From everything I've heard about PP, they slot nicely into those. so no, I'm not surprised there isn't more self awareness, as Wilson probably genuinely does not see how his own actions have lead to the collapse of his company.

grahamdbailey wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Probably worth mentioning that they're planning a Monsterpocalypse Kickstarter:

https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/26/privateer-press-announces-joining-forces-with-mythic-games-for-new-monsterpocalypse-big-box-game/

interesting stuff. A boardgame version would certainly open up sales options in new locations, and depending on price maybe be a nice way for people to bulk out factions or whatnot i guess, i'm not super familiar with the game though i've been often impressed with the models for it

Mythic Games, though....
Their enthusiasm outweighs their ability-they've never managed to deliver a campaign on time, and, whilst their miniatures are lovely, their writing and rules leave a lot to be desired.

Well Privateer should be handling all the rules. So that shouldn't be an issue I would hope.

I made another Kitchen Table Warmachine list based entirely around the Malcontents and Headhunter, the protagonists of the fantastic Into the Storm and Into the Wild novels by Larry Correia! Come check out how we can make a humble unit of Storm Blades and a ‘Jack Marshalled Stormclad into a sweet list that looks like a blast on the table!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/theory-and-tactics/2021/8/20/kitchen-table-warmachine-the-malcontents


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Episode 183 of Line of Sight, Jaden and Bret welcome on Brian AKA Malorian and we have a chat about the future of Warmachine! Such topics as the future meta for SR 2021, the fate of the new terrain types, and what each of us would do if we were in charge of Warmachine for a year abound. Come check it all out on Episode 183 of Line of Sight!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/line-of-sight-podcast/2021/8/27/line-of-sight-episode-183-patreon-pick-the-future-of-warmachine-with-malorian

grahamdbailey wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Probably worth mentioning that they're planning a Monsterpocalypse Kickstarter:

https://home.privateerpress.com/2021/08/26/privateer-press-announces-joining-forces-with-mythic-games-for-new-monsterpocalypse-big-box-game/

interesting stuff. A boardgame version would certainly open up sales options in new locations, and depending on price maybe be a nice way for people to bulk out factions or whatnot i guess, i'm not super familiar with the game though i've been often impressed with the models for it

Mythic Games, though....
Their enthusiasm outweighs their ability-they've never managed to deliver a campaign on time, and, whilst their miniatures are lovely, their writing and rules leave a lot to be desired.

This is my concern as well.
It would seem that so long as Mythic aren’t involved in the design or development of the rules it might turn out all right. However, their ability to deliver on time is what’s a major factor.
They have….5 outstanding KS campaigns as it is. Every one of those projects is delayed by at least 6 months, and one of which has been delayed for close to 3 years.
Due to it being a collaborative effort with Mythic I’ll seriously question if I’ll even back it.

MonPoc is probably my favorite game of all time. Marvel is perhaps edging it out, but I particularly love the new edition. It's definitely a great option as a board game though. Curious to see how the models turn out. The new monster sculpts of 2nd ed are really great, but the units REALLY don't need to be made out of high end materials.

On episode 184 of Line of Sight, Bret and Jaden are joined by Chad, Justin, and Max of Turn 2 Pee Break, the winners of the first ever Brawlmachine Team Championship! They are subject to a host of questions about their tournament experience, thoughts on Brawlmachine and terrain, and more on this episode of Line of Sight!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/line-of-sight-podcast/2021/9/3/line-of-sight-episode-184-interviewing-the-brawlmachine-team-champions


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's a tutorial on painting insect-like wings!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/hobby-articles/2021/9/3/insect-wings-painting-tutorial

More of a PP community thread post, it seems?

On Episode 185 of Line of Sight, Bret, Chandler, and Jaden sit down and build a list for each of the upcoming Journeyman Warlocks! Come listen to the hilarity that ensues when you get three extremely tired co-hosts of Line of Sight coming together to make lists for factions they haven't played in a year or two. Nothing but the finest in entertainment on this episode of Line of Sight!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/line-of-sight-podcast/2021/9/11/line-of-sight-episode-185-making-lists-with-the-new-jr-warlocks

On Episode 186 of Line of Sight, Jaden and Bret tackle the absolute mountain of listener questions gathered over a few days prior to the cast. Come listen to the pair design new warlocks and warcasters, debate the finer points of the best Pokemon warbeast candidates, and everything in between! Listener question episodes are always a blast, so come laugh along on this weeks episode of Line of Sight!

https://www.loswarmachine.com/line-of-sight-podcast/2021/9/19/line-of-sight-episode-186-listener-question-extravaganza

So wierd coming on to this thread. I spend 2 days a week playing and supporting Warmachine and Riot Quest, while another guy in the community is learning the rules to support Mondays and another guy is supporting a Warcaster scene.

It is almost like, instead of a "state of the game" and how to improve it on a personal level it has bubbled into a whine site for a handful of disenfranchised players, with some players who are actually active players and supporting scenes dropping wholesome goodness.

it is odd at times, isn't it

That said, i've really enjoyed the people that have been dropping content links in here

 greenskin lynn wrote:
it is odd at times, isn't it

That said, i've really enjoyed the people that have been dropping content links in here

Glad to hear it The radio silence here is eery sometimes....

Enjoy the content as well! I just tend to save links to longer media for when I'm doing chores or painting which doesn't leave me on the forums to comment when I'm done.

 LoS_Jaden wrote:

 greenskin lynn wrote:
it is odd at times, isn't it

That said, i've really enjoyed the people that have been dropping content links in here

Glad to hear it The radio silence here is eery sometimes....

As much as anything I think this a function of dakka just not having much of a WMH audience. I know if I'm looking to discuss the games, I just hit up the LOS discord nowadays. Still stop through this thread when I happen to be here though.

Anyway, love what you guys do.

marxlives wrote:
So wierd coming on to this thread. I spend 2 days a week playing and supporting Warmachine and Riot Quest, while another guy in the community is learning the rules to support Mondays and another guy is supporting a Warcaster scene.

It is almost like, instead of a "state of the game" and how to improve it on a personal level it has bubbled into a whine site for a handful of disenfranchised players, with some players who are actually active players and supporting scenes dropping wholesome goodness.

A whine thread would have people whining, which would actually be a better indicator for the state of the game. People whining, if we are going to unilaterally label criticism as that, still means people care enough to do it. Dead silence means even the haters don't care anymore.