Graphite wrote: Remember that the nuclear missile armed Urbanmech is real and can hurt you. This will make the game much faster, though potentially slightly too fast.
If you're going to use nukes, let's just play Ogre or Nuclear Warfare where nukes are a core part of the game. Battletech is about giant stompy robots blasting each other, not 'nuke goes off, everyone dies, who wants to play again?'
Graphite wrote: I think it would work well as an objective. Hunt the Urbie before it launches
Heh, I've been imagining a scenario where one group is escorting some Urbie AIVs in to firing position, while another is intercepting them. They start on one side of the map, and they need to get to the other for proper firing position.
I just don't have any Urbies at all to provide for that. Though, I'm pretty sure our group has enough scattered around to cover it.
My Comstar box, painted up last week, saw victorious action tonight. Well, not that victorious, my opponent's dice were against him all night so it wasn't really a fair fight.
The CGL rep in our group has been having us run Alpha Strike test scenarios, trying out variations on the rules. Lately it's been different missions with medium range reduced to 18", and long range kept at 42". It does put a little bit more emphasis on long range firepower, but units still close to medium and short range fairly quickly.
We've been doing a lot of the 'place 3 objectives on your opponent's side of the field and do something to them' type missions. I find that a lot of the games don't make it past the 2 sides meeting in the middle. It's pretty much decided then and there. If you send one mech running off on its own to get an objective it's just going to get blown away, and that's one less mech you have for the big fight in the middle.
It sounds like more terrain could mix it up also in those missions, Terrain can really change dynamics of the battlefield.
Especially if giving light mechs lots of hiding places to make close range attacks a bit more often.
Just making the battlefield different can be huge for the gameplay.
hotflungwok wrote: The CGL rep in our group has been having us run Alpha Strike test scenarios, trying out variations on the rules. Lately it's been different missions with medium range reduced to 18", and long range kept at 42". It does put a little bit more emphasis on long range firepower, but units still close to medium and short range fairly quickly.
You might also consider the Long-Range Targeting optional rule as used in the DFA ruleset- instead of S/M/L being +0/+2/+4, it becomes +1/+2/+3. Makes long range fire a little more useful and knife fights a little less decisive, YMMV.
I do want to see all done, are all your mechs and everything scaled up as well?
Yep, the club has been using 10mm/N scale Rebased MechWarrior Clix units for years for various games. We bought a ton of them a decade or so ago when the game had died and they were dirt cheap. We were able to trade amongst ourselves and get forces from a single faction for each member so for the most part we didn't even have to do any painting.
Mostly they get used for Mech Attack (our preferred Battletech alternative) and Alpha Strike.
There's a couple pics on the previous page of a recent battle.
Clearly incompatibility with other folks collections is a big downside, but the 6mm rules and measurements of Alpha Strike work fine with 10mm. With the proliferation of 3d printing and the wide availability of N scale structures, 10mm Alpha Strike is very feasible and IMHO it just looks alot better at the larger size.
I do want to see all done, are all your mechs and everything scaled up as well?
Yep, the club has been using 10mm/N scale Rebased MechWarrior Clix units for years for various games. We bought a ton of them a decade or so ago when the game had died and they were dirt cheap. We were able to trade amongst ourselves and get forces from a single faction for each member so for the most part we didn't even have to do any painting.
Mostly they get used for Mech Attack (our preferred Battletech alternative) and Alpha Strike.
There's a couple pics on the previous page of a recent battle.
Clearly incompatibility with other folks collections is a big downside, but the 6mm rules and measurements of Alpha Strike work fine with 10mm. With the proliferation of 3d printing and the wide availability of N scale structures, 10mm Alpha Strike is very feasible and IMHO it just looks alot better at the larger size.
Cool cool!
Those pictures were awesome as well, I like 6mm scale but I have been thinking of picking up Nscale for use with my Gundam as well.
Also it’s really cool having a close group that does stuff like that, sounds like fun group.
I do want to see all done, are all your mechs and everything scaled up as well?
Yep, the club has been using 10mm/N scale Rebased MechWarrior Clix units for years for various games. We bought a ton of them a decade or so ago when the game had died and they were dirt cheap. We were able to trade amongst ourselves and get forces from a single faction for each member so for the most part we didn't even have to do any painting.
Mostly they get used for Mech Attack (our preferred Battletech alternative) and Alpha Strike.
There's a couple pics on the previous page of a recent battle.
Clearly incompatibility with other folks collections is a big downside, but the 6mm rules and measurements of Alpha Strike work fine with 10mm. With the proliferation of 3d printing and the wide availability of N scale structures, 10mm Alpha Strike is very feasible and IMHO it just looks alot better at the larger size.
Cool cool!
Those pictures were awesome as well, I like 6mm scale but I have been thinking of picking up Nscale for use with my Gundam as well.
Also it’s really cool having a close group that does stuff like that, sounds like fun group.
Thanks for the kind words. N scale Gundam combat could be done incredibly cheaply and effectively with HG kits and the Dropzone Commander card buildings (you would need the big buildings!). I'm not so much into Gundam, but I've built a few just because they looked cool.
It really is a great club. Small, but great. We've had over a decade of gaming, mostly indie and miniature Agnostic games.
I do want to see all done, are all your mechs and everything scaled up as well?
Yep, the club has been using 10mm/N scale Rebased MechWarrior Clix units for years for various games. We bought a ton of them a decade or so ago when the game had died and they were dirt cheap. We were able to trade amongst ourselves and get forces from a single faction for each member so for the most part we didn't even have to do any painting.
Mostly they get used for Mech Attack (our preferred Battletech alternative) and Alpha Strike.
There's a couple pics on the previous page of a recent battle.
Clearly incompatibility with other folks collections is a big downside, but the 6mm rules and measurements of Alpha Strike work fine with 10mm. With the proliferation of 3d printing and the wide availability of N scale structures, 10mm Alpha Strike is very feasible and IMHO it just looks alot better at the larger size.
Cool cool!
Those pictures were awesome as well, I like 6mm scale but I have been thinking of picking up Nscale for use with my Gundam as well.
Also it’s really cool having a close group that does stuff like that, sounds like fun group.
Thanks for the kind words. N scale Gundam combat could be done incredibly cheaply and effectively with HG kits and the Dropzone Commander card buildings (you would need the big buildings!). I'm not so much into Gundam, but I've built a few just because they looked cool.
It really is a great club. Small, but great. We've had over a decade of gaming, mostly indie and miniature Agnostic games.
Oh! Lots of inspiration over there.
Not just mechs but tables of terrain, It’s all very cool.
I got all the dropzone commander buildings in card, but I wanted a big upgrade for a table.
Slowly running out of space for terrain, so it needs to perform for as many games as possible now.
And with the kickstarter I do want to be able to do a huge table for event games this year for alpha strike.
looking at the counters pack they have put out for this, seen one review that indicates its largely, but not quite, a duplicate of the boxed set. e.g. objectives are sequential.
the movement chits don't bother me, use dice for that and plan to stay using dice.
Q: whats the rest of the set like?
looks like a not bad amount of buildings, the trees can sit on existing bases I have, roads/rivers enough to be worth the effort?
If you are talking about the 25 dollar set, it's worth it - I bought it for the buildings alone! I can't even imagine how much printer ink I would use up making that many papercraft buildings, and with them added to the ones from the Starter set, you can have a BIG urban game. The Alpha Strike buildings are definitely the best you can get from a miniatures starter set nowadays.
I never liked the look of the tree standees, though they will work perfectly fine for people with no scenery or no interest in making their own. I don't personally use them as not only are they a bit easy to tip over, I already had made my own tree stands for Alpha Strike from better looking model trees I bought cheaply on Amazon.
The area templates for the forests and rough terrain are pretty decent. I use them a lot for my games, and just stand my homemade tree bases on the Alpha Strike forest templates. Bonus points, they are double sided, so one side is "green world" and the other side is desert. I have played several demo games using both of them with different green/desert game mats at the LGS.
The water terrain is good enough to be used, thought the "desert" side is this really weird "red-oxide" water that is kind of jarringly RED on the table.
I feel like there isn't near enough roads included in the set. But they work.
Another 10mm Alpha Strike game in the bag. A bunch of new N scale buildings and trying out some 90s Hot Wheels World City roads. Will probably be keepers once I remove the wide yellow stripes.
Looks good, had a run with this last Thursday, basic rules only, no special abilities no overloading, just mechs, guns and murder
aim was to bring a few new players in, and as a refresher for the two of us who have played before. sadly the two newbies couldn't make it dur to traffic issues..
2 clan stars v 3 IS lances, clans won (as expected) as without some of the other abilities they very much have the edge - however it suited the purpose of the game.
ordered the tokens, which have now arrived. not sure the TMM tokens are that useful, I think it will be way faster to find a coloured die and use that, they are nice looking though, and some of the more specialised ones for altitude, stealth etc will get used.
the buildings are decent, I can see gluing them, and adding 2mm greyboard or 5mm foamcore inside them though, and perhaps a small base for rigidity (inside will be hollow and accessible though!). not a bad number, in various heights so a mix of cover and LoS blockers, indeed some that will be cover for smaller mechs and nothing for larger too.
roads look nice, no where near enough of them for general usage but enough to stick roads through woods. I do have some ground vehicles so likely will end up making some more roads, doubt that will be hard to do
the two lake/ponds are nice, though nowhere near large enough to be more than decorative ponds on a 6x4 table - the more "ohh yuck" side however as stuff like waste ponds/cooling ponds I can see trying.
trees are better than nothing as well
overall value is debatable, the reference sheets are good (especially if you have the hard backed rule book and not the main box set). For me it comes down to the buildings being good enough for what they are and easy to assemble - and with only a black & white laser printer printed versions are a non-starter really.
can 3d print stuff, which then wants paint, where as these take a couple of minutes to put together and are perfectly good enough
overall happy with it, though a pack that is only the buildings, with say twice as many would have been better
I made a bunch of alpha strike counters for tmm as I was finding the ones from the box too hard to see the numbers. The 5 and 3 on my ones are. Bit hard to distinguish, but it worked overall.
Multi-colour layering with FDM printers is so handy for game tokens
Your FDM slicer should be able to let you do raised details on tokens in a different colour. It just pauses the print and lets you feed a new colour in.
Flinty wrote: I made a bunch of alpha strike counters for tmm as I was finding the ones from the box too hard to see the numbers. The 5 and 3 on my ones are. Bit hard to distinguish, but it worked overall.
Multi-colour layering with FDM printers is so handy for game tokens
They look pretty good.
I prefer 12mm dice, myself, simply because they are more compact and flexible. And if push comes to shove, I can even use spare ones for another pair of Dice on an Attack. (Biggest was when I popped a 295 Booby Trap underneath an Atlas' legs, in Classic that's a LOT of 5-point Hits).
Flinty wrote: Your FDM slicer should be able to let you do raised details on tokens in a different colour. It just pauses the print and lets you feed a new colour in.
probably but have found FDM is unreliable enough that once it works I leave well alone on anything fiddly.
easy enough to have raised text and paint it, or recessed and ink it
I just recently ran a demo of Alpha Strike (even though I am a newbie, too) and it was great fun. I had 6 IS mechs versus a Clan Star, and it came down to my lone Thunderbolt firing the kill shots on his lone Cauldron-Born, in a very Robot Jox-esque climax. We use the 2D6 per damage point optional rule, it just "feels" more correct, especially with the ease of splitting fire on multiple targets.
I still hate the formation rules, and we don't bother with them. Feels like too much of a meta exercise, where a game can be heavily tipped before it starts, just through good list building giving you free abilities. It's more fun to just buy what you want at the skill level you want, and pay for any Pilot Abilities. It makes the pilots with the abilities feel more like characters.
Although this last game made me feel a bit weird, as my opponent is a big fan of having all his mechs be skill 2, with a couple Skill 1's, which meant that I more or less had to do the same thing or get slaughtered. It certainly makes the game quick and even more deadly, but it feels a bit "Herohammer" to me when I am used to both BT and AS games where units are skill 3 or 4.
It makes low armor/structure units really scary to even field, when most medium range shots are hitting on 5's or 6's even with cover/woods. Even with multiple attack rolls making it less all or nothing to hit, it threatens to make light units get relegated back to "get hit in one attack phase and evaporate" like with the original damage style.
Next game I want to expand and use some vehicles, Special Pilot Abilities, Battlefield Support, and maybe something interesting like Forced Withdrawal, rather than just generic last man standing fights.
have played the single shot method and the "single die roll" method
to be honest I prefer the individual rolls, especially with split fire etc, it just feels better. especially with half a dozen or so models per side
last game was a dozen v ten, single rolls work well there, also reduces book keeping as a larger mech landing a hit on a smaller one was quite often a one hit kill
vehicles are fun, have a group of badgers that are nice, annoying, easily damaged but hard to hit as they can hide so well
the withdrawal rules are well worth bringing in by default too, though again smaller mechs tend to pass the tests as they can't survive the sort of damage that modifies it. good on the larger mechs though
aiming to try the special ability stuff here soon as well.
I have tried experimenting with alternate skill levels, two games, the first my opponent had skill 2 on just about all his clan mechs, which was nasty but eye watering expense meant he just didn't have the firepower given my stuff was all skill 4, second game went with max one in a lance/star improved, that can work well
Skill 2 can typically be compensated for by closing with your opponent quickly. Once you run into some of the really high mobility units, you do start wanting at least a skill 2 or 3 to take out the fast movers. JMPS, VTOL, STL (or 2 of them together) can generate TMM 5 or 6, which is very difficult for skill 4 to do anything about. Especially since those units are typically fast enough to avoid you closing to short.
Not that I'd expect any of that nonsense to be coming up in demo games! lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Q: looking up how aerospace units work, various articles on line talk about air units not being able to strike until the 3rd turn, talk of "inner ring" "outer ring" etc that I can't see in the commander's edition rulebook.
is there another book somewhere? as in the book I have not seeing anything that would limit air units from overflying the board each and every turn?
additionally level bombing seems to make no sense at all, its described as like strafing, but you stick a point of impact every 2" along the flight path then have to drop a bomb in each.
well the flight path is at least 24" and I have two bombs.
now I assume what this is meant to be is you pick your start point, then drop a bomb, and keep dropping them every 2" until you run out, which makes sense with the diagram and example given but its not exactly clear
is there something I'm missing here?
Automatically Appended Next Post: ok scratch part of this, found the errata/FAQ that explains level bombing
still non the wiser on the "inner ring" and similar though?
Q: looking up how aerospace units work, various articles on line talk about air units not being able to strike until the 3rd turn, talk of "inner ring" "outer ring" etc that I can't see in the commander's edition rulebook.
is there another book somewhere? as in the book I have not seeing anything that would limit air units from overflying the board each and every turn?
I'm not aware of that with Alpha Strike. Last time we used Aerospace Fighters, they started on the table and only left when shot down.
It is an optional rule used with Strategic Operations, though. It's either they were talking about Classic or adapted it for Alpha Strike and continued to work with it from there. It should adapt pretty well. Unfortunately, ASF are really cost-intensive to take for just the few strikes such a system will provide in a standard game, be it with PV in Alpha Strike or BV in Classic.
Q: looking up how aerospace units work, various articles on line talk about air units not being able to strike until the 3rd turn, talk of "inner ring" "outer ring" etc that I can't see in the commander's edition rulebook.
is there another book somewhere? as in the book I have not seeing anything that would limit air units from overflying the board each and every turn?
I'm not aware of that with Alpha Strike. Last time we used Aerospace Fighters, they started on the table and only left when shot down.
It is an optional rule used with Strategic Operations, though. It's either they were talking about Classic or adapted it for Alpha Strike and continued to work with it from there. It should adapt pretty well. Unfortunately, ASF are really cost-intensive to take for just the few strikes such a system will provide in a standard game, be it with PV in Alpha Strike or BV in Classic.
articles were definitely about Alpha Strike, I've seen it in AGOAC, like you though not seen it in the commander's edition book, maybe an earlier edition, if there was one?
and also agree the points are waaaay high if they miss half the game
and also agree the points are waaaay high if they miss half the game
I tentatively agree, but by the time you get to including things like aerofighters, I think you're well out of the range of point-up-and-play armies. You're probably into the realm of crafted scenarios such as "Player X and Y each get ____ points to spend on aerospace assets" or, "Player X get's _____ points of aerospace assets and Player Y will receive ___ anti-aircraft installations".
leopard wrote:articles were definitely about Alpha Strike, I've seen it in AGOAC, like you though not seen it in the commander's edition book, maybe an earlier edition, if there was one?
The Commander's Edition is effectively the 2nd Edition book of Alpha Strike.
leopard wrote:and also agree the points are waaaay high if they miss half the game
Yeah, there needs to be 2 different types of BV/PV for ASF. 1 for if they will be on the board all the time. 1 for dedicated air/void battles.
Eilif wrote:I tentatively agree, but by the time you get to including things like aerofighters, I think you're well out of the range of point-up-and-play armies. You're probably into the realm of crafted scenarios such as "Player X and Y each get ____ points to spend on aerospace assets" or, "Player X get's _____ points of aerospace assets and Player Y will receive ___ anti-aircraft installations".
If this was Classic, where finding everything and incorporating it is a challenge, I agree. However, Alpha Strike does have everything there in one book and is rather easy to incorporate. However, not having Flak, your own ASF, or Snipers will make it annoying.
this being a 2nd edition suddenly makes sense, cheers
doubt aerotech units will get used all that much, bit like ground vehicles, I mean you could do just them and the game should work with just them but its really all about big stompy things being big and being stompy, the other stuff being there to help them stomp and be big so to speak
leopard wrote: doubt aerotech units will get used all that much, bit like ground vehicles, I mean you could do just them and the game should work with just them but its really all about big stompy things being big and being stompy, the other stuff being there to help them stomp and be big so to speak
A lot of it depends on the scenarios the group is doing. If it's just kill-mongering, Mechs are usually tougher, but ASF are reasonably good at doing that, too, as well as surviving.
I do use Combat Vehicles moderately often. Last time I used 2 Pattons. Part of it is Combat Vehicles are cheap due to always taking a chance at being Immobilized (happened both games), and Pattons carry a LOT of Armor for their size. I often use J. Edgars as well, as some of our normal Objectives involve getting to the Rear, so fast units are pretty much needed.
However, availability of access is as important as ease of play. So far, the plastic ASF aren't available in most FLGS, and with IronWind models it's been more miss than hit when looking in stores. This will likely remain in place until they decide how they want to proceed with Aerospace (they're looking in to it right now). Same could be said of Vehicles, but the Kickstarter will remedy that part a lot, I think, when they hit stores.
leopard wrote: this being a 2nd edition suddenly makes sense, cheers
doubt aerotech units will get used all that much, bit like ground vehicles, I mean you could do just them and the game should work with just them but its really all about big stompy things being big and being stompy, the other stuff being there to help them stomp and be big so to speak
I'm thinking that will likely shift with the release of the new kickstarter. Vehicles are cheaper than mechs, usually because they're much more specialized. Mechs are flexible, but more expensive. The main thing holding folks back from using vehicles, especially people getting into it recently, is a vehicle or two costs as much as 4 plastic mechs. Once they're available in plastic, I expect to see them proliferate. My local group uses them extensively, and as long you're willing to work with them, it's much easier to get your points worth out of them than mechs.
If you want indirect fire, the LRM carrier can give you 3 for 22 pts. That's 1 point more than a Locust 1M.
The Longbow can do it for 36. Granted, it's much tougher, but as long as you don't mind parking the LRM carrier behind cover (and coincidentally getting that -1 mod) it shouldn't be hit.
I want to play combined arms, and at first blush after reading them I really wish the Formation building rules were more flexible about vehicles in lances, like with mechs. I don't want to have to constantly buy pairs of matched vehicle models or Aerospace fighters, unless you are using them as Comstar, which don't seem to care, lol.
For instance, I play Inner Sphere, and don't want to have to automatically buy 4 helicopter models, in 2 matched pairs, just to field them, because every Lance/Star has to have everything have the same movement style. I wish I could have, for instance, three hovercraft and a helicopter in a Striker or Pursuit Lance. Or two hovercraft and two helicopters.
I have been pushing my evening Classic group to play Alpha Strike, and at least a couple of them really dislike the formation rules, so I was thinking of just encouraging the building of forces (300 points) using whatever we want, just using points, and purchase Special Pilot Abilities on units we want to be Heroes/Commanders. Then just apply the Rule of Thumb in the Special Pilot Ability section where no more than 1 in 4 units should get an Ability.
We don't use Formations in our group. This has the convenience of not having to deal with such, but also the counter in that we don't get those bonuses, either.
Formations are definitely an odd bit of the rules. I don't have as much experience with them, but as written they don't work well with Comstar, who are supposed to mix everything but Aerospace in their level IIs, or Capellans, who later on start using Reinforced Lances with 4 mechs and 2 vehicles.
Great point, AegisGrimm. There's a lot of vehicles I'll take one of, but don't really want 2 of on the field at once.
Yeah, pretty much. It's actually pretty easy to conform to formation requirements with all the available mechs, but none of us have vehicle collections that would fit with the strict requirements rules. I have a good start on a collection with about a half dozen vehicles each for two different factions, but the rest of the players mostly just have the new Catalyst mechs or a few 3D prints.
I'm hoping to get a couple games played next week and maybe the week after for some practice; our local store is having a bit of an event at the end of the month, where it's basically going to be a 3 vs. 3 (or maybe even a 6 vs. 6) group game where each player fields a lance.
I'm pretty excited, as Classic doesn't really "click" with me (makes my brain sooo tired to do a full night of math and counting after a day of work), and nobody has shown much interest in "downgrading" to Alpha Strike, even though the couple 250-300pt games I have been able to demo with new players have been great fun.
AegisGrimm wrote: I want to play combined arms, and at first blush after reading them I really wish the Formation building rules were more flexible about vehicles in lances, like with mechs. I don't want to have to constantly buy pairs of matched vehicle models or Aerospace fighters, unless you are using them as Comstar, which don't seem to care, lol.
For instance, I play Inner Sphere, and don't want to have to automatically buy 4 helicopter models, in 2 matched pairs, just to field them, because every Lance/Star has to have everything have the same movement style. I wish I could have, for instance, three hovercraft and a helicopter in a Striker or Pursuit Lance. Or two hovercraft and two helicopters.
I have been pushing my evening Classic group to play Alpha Strike, and at least a couple of them really dislike the formation rules, so I was thinking of just encouraging the building of forces (300 points) using whatever we want, just using points, and purchase Special Pilot Abilities on units we want to be Heroes/Commanders. Then just apply the Rule of Thumb in the Special Pilot Ability section where no more than 1 in 4 units should get an Ability.
At 300 points there's not much reason to stick with formation rules. There's just not that many units on the table so it's quite limiting unless you're playing a specific scenario. I really like the look of platoons of vehicles, but that really functions best when you have alot of minis on the table and are getting around 500 points.
We actually got in a really fun 2v2 game where each player fielded 250 points. Taught a brand new player that was interested in what we were doing how to play Alpha Strike, and he bought a Clan force pack the very next day.
Highlights include a Flashman taking just a single point of damage from the first attack to hit it on the FIRST turn, and it was a Natural 12, giving it an "ammo explosion" and resulting in stunned silence. If we hadn't realized it was an Energy-only mech, an assault mech with no prior damage would have just completely exploded, straight out of the factory, before it even had a chance to fire a single time lol. Then an Orion with three(!) Fire Control hits ran up and destroyed my Battlemaster that still had half it's armor left, with a well-placed physical attack. Among the damage was a Natural 12....and then it rolled a "Unit Destroyed" result.
This game had to have seen at least 6-7 Fire Control hits, and probably 4 "weapon destroyed" results. And once, a mech took TWO critical hits, both from Structure damage and from a natural 12, and they both resulted in "No Critical". And not even the same result. It was one of each!
We are practicing 250 point AS forces for three straight Wednesdays because crazy enough, Randall Bills from Catalyst is going to be visiting our gaming store at the end of the month on the 29th, and we are going greet him with a GIANT Alpha Strike battle, hopefully of at least 4x4 or even 6x6 with each player fielding 250 points of mechs. Hell, that's going to be at least 40 mechs on a 4x12 foot table.
Eilif wrote: So have I missed something big? Is Battletech getting into the prepainted game? Or is this just a one-off?
Currently only that Orion:
Sarna wrote:Announced during the PAX Unplugged 2023 live streams, the Star League Command Lance is the first in a series four Star League-themed ForcePacks intended to celebrate BattleTech's 40th Anniversary with a presently planned release date of Q1 2024. All four miniatures are so-far exclusive to this pack, either unique sculpts of pre-existing 'Mechs, either new variant or alternate pose, or the debut appearance of their CGL respective miniature. Additionally the pack is notable for including one pre-painted miniature - Aleksandr Kerensky's Orion.
Eilif wrote: So have I missed something big? Is Battletech getting into the prepainted game? Or is this just a one-off?
Catalyst plans to release one Force pack per quarter independent of the stuff from the kickstarter with one prepainted mini each. The boxes are themed around the different iterations of the Star League with the 3rd getting two.
AegisGrimm wrote: We are practicing 250 point AS forces for three straight Wednesdays because crazy enough, Randall Bills from Catalyst is going to be visiting our gaming store at the end of the month on the 29th, and we are going greet him with a GIANT Alpha Strike battle, hopefully of at least 4x4 or even 6x6 with each player fielding 250 points of mechs. Hell, that's going to be at least 40 mechs on a 4x12 foot table.
That sounds like a fun event - hope everything goes smoothly, and please get pictures!
Eilif wrote: So have I missed something big? Is Battletech getting into the prepainted game? Or is this just a one-off?
Currently only that Orion:
There are plans for Second Star League Assault Lance (the Daishi, Prometheus), Third Star League Striker Star (a Lament) and Third Star League Battle Star (most likely Alaric Ward's Savage Wolf) to also have a pre-painted miniature each.
whats a good way to use them? thinking initially given they are low movement, rubbish armour, very easy to hit they need to be off to one side, as a group and aiming for some terrain they can use to block incoming fire then hold
sucks if thats no where important or not on the board I guess.
sort of a small "nest" of vicious ankle biters that will take force well beyond their worth out of the battle if an enemy wishes to harm them but that can later spring some medium range shots to help when the centre engages?
for refer, likely playing with the splitting fire rules so sadly the idea of one tin can exploding to keep a clan mech with damage "8" busy for a turn doesn't work.
I'm not expecting much from a quartet of them other than a distraction/irritation and a way to hold ground until they are forced to go away, say by a passing butterfly sneezing at them
very much open to suggestions, obviously they can function as indirect fire spotters, but suspect something faster will be more useful at that, never hurts to be able to though, and also should be able to hold a flank against one or two enemy light mechs if thats all that goes there
Eilif wrote: So have I missed something big? Is Battletech getting into the prepainted game? Or is this just a one-off?
Currently only that Orion:
There are plans for Second Star League Assault Lance (the Daishi, Prometheus), Third Star League Striker Star (a Lament) and Third Star League Battle Star (most likely Alaric Ward's Savage Wolf) to also have a pre-painted miniature each.
AegisGrimm wrote: We are practicing 250 point AS forces for three straight Wednesdays because crazy enough, Randall Bills from Catalyst is going to be visiting our gaming store at the end of the month on the 29th, and we are going greet him with a GIANT Alpha Strike battle, hopefully of at least 4x4 or even 6x6 with each player fielding 250 points of mechs. Hell, that's going to be at least 40 mechs on a 4x12 foot table.
That sounds like a fun event - hope everything goes smoothly, and please get pictures!
Thanks so much for that info. Seems a weird way to do it as those who prefer painted and unpainted minis are not always the same people. Still, I assume it's a good way to test the water.
As mentioned before, I play with rebased Mechwarrior Clix and I like that not having to paint them gives me more time to focus on building terrain and painting 28mm figures, my main scale focus. I imagine there may be other folks like me out there.
whats a good way to use them? thinking initially given they are low movement, rubbish armour, very easy to hit they need to be off to one side, as a group and aiming for some terrain they can use to block incoming fire then hold
sucks if thats no where important or not on the board I guess.
sort of a small "nest" of vicious ankle biters that will take force well beyond their worth out of the battle if an enemy wishes to harm them but that can later spring some medium range shots to help when the centre engages?
for refer, likely playing with the splitting fire rules so sadly the idea of one tin can exploding to keep a clan mech with damage "8" busy for a turn doesn't work.
I'm not expecting much from a quartet of them other than a distraction/irritation and a way to hold ground until they are forced to go away, say by a passing butterfly sneezing at them
very much open to suggestions, obviously they can function as indirect fire spotters, but suspect something faster will be more useful at that, never hurts to be able to though, and also should be able to hold a flank against one or two enemy light mechs if thats all that goes there
You use UrbanMechs for the LOLs.
For serious fighting, there are many armored vehciles that have as good if not better firepower, better speed, and are FAR cheaper.
Ok, have now used the angry dustbins a few times, have to say.. they are not as bad as they look.
Ran a quartet of UM-R60L, 2/2/0 damage profile. yes they are easy to hit, and with 3/2 damage not that hard to kill, but a clan mech doing 3 damage at range doesn't drop them in one shot and as my opponent discovered as they lumbered up the mid field ignoring them is a mistake as when they get close its potentially 8 damage, likely less, but unlikely to be nothing in a way a mech with a damage profile of 8 can be (single dice for all weapons here into one target)
and then when they do get close, its four of them, so they are quite hard to one shot kill that firepower.
and its 44 points for all four, so less than a typical good mech, especially a clan one.
Eventually he will start to pop them at range early on, but hasn't yet.
also when they are damaged if forced to withdraw the low movement means they are still taking pot shots late on.
tempted to actually drop them to skill 3 given its cheap enough to do on them.
they are also pure comedy gold in objective based games
leopard wrote: Ok, have now used the angry dustbins a few times, have to say.. they are not as bad as they look.
Ran a quartet of UM-R60L, 2/2/0 damage profile. yes they are easy to hit, and with 3/2 damage not that hard to kill, but a clan mech doing 3 damage at range doesn't drop them in one shot and as my opponent discovered as they lumbered up the mid field ignoring them is a mistake as when they get close its potentially 8 damage, likely less, but unlikely to be nothing in a way a mech with a damage profile of 8 can be (single dice for all weapons here into one target)
and then when they do get close, its four of them, so they are quite hard to one shot kill that firepower.
and its 44 points for all four, so less than a typical good mech, especially a clan one.
Eventually he will start to pop them at range early on, but hasn't yet.
also when they are damaged if forced to withdraw the low movement means they are still taking pot shots late on.
tempted to actually drop them to skill 3 given its cheap enough to do on them.
they are also pure comedy gold in objective based games
There's quite a lot to be said for a cheap, disposable lance in your force. I've been tinkering with vehicles for that purpose, ran 2 bulldogs and 2 vedettes. They were far more trouble than their 70 points would indicate.
I may drop the bulldogs for something a little faster, like galleons, because the Vedettes were surprisingly mobile. They'd be cheaper too.
yes, the way the game works activation spam isn't really a thing but the value in something thats more trouble than its worth to remove but will be trouble if you don't is excellent.
found two were good late game, even as they were falling back at what passes for top speed (as they take ages to actually depart)
had one combat mech, facing two lighter clan ones with more mobility, the dustbins managed to spat a clanner to was jumping behind the larger one and staying there nipping at its heels
2 damage at medium range for 11 points is not that bad, they may be easy to hit themselves but they hit you just as well as anything else with 2 damage at that range
Yeah, I am looking forward to getting vehicles on the table at my local store, for the same reason. I have various beefy tanks like Manticores and Pattons for my two different forces, but I am especially interested in trying out my several Saracen/Scimitar/Saladins, with their TMM3 each. Not much for armor and structure, but you have to hit them first while they peck away at you. Or even worse, the pair of J. Edgars (TMM 4) I just painted up for my Lyran force.
Battletech Alpha Strike is Awesome Too thread, where have you been all my life?
I've only played once or twice, but it was really fun. I have piles of wizkids mechs etc, all rebased on clear acrylic bases. We use the Pilot die method (one visually distinct die, plus one white die per point of potential damage, sum the white dice and your pilot die to meet or beat the target number). I liked that system a lot (and was pleased to see it looks like it doesn't make that much of a difference).
I've run Pattons and J. Edgars. Both are annoying as h***, but in different ways.
The J. Edgars are speedy things that are where I want them to be, even if they don't do a lot once there. A Medium Laser and 2 SRM-2s aren't known for Damage output, but the J. Edgar has a lot of Armor for a 25 ton tank.
The Pattons were just huge volumes of Armor that I just put in the way of the advancing enemy and say, "Deal with me."
I've just gotten a pair of Strikers, and a few Sniper Artillery tanks (that I'll proxy as Marksman or Ballistas at times) that I need to paint up before I try them on the table.
Of course, that doesn't even consider the 7 tank lances coming in my Kickstarter pledge.
pancakeonions wrote: Battletech Alpha Strike is Awesome Too thread, where have you been all my life?
I've only played once or twice, but it was really fun. I have piles of wizkids mechs etc, all rebased on clear acrylic bases. We use the Pilot die method (one visually distinct die, plus one white die per point of potential damage, sum the white dice and your pilot die to meet or beat the target number). I liked that system a lot (and was pleased to see it looks like it doesn't make that much of a difference).
Anyway. Glad to find this thread.
Rebased Mechwarrior Clix, you are speaking my language! We've been using them for a gaming a variety of rules in 10mm for a long time. Great way to quickly get a good looking army on the table.
tried the pilot die method here, have to say didn't really see the point as its still largely depending upon one die. there are a few who use 1d12 who seem to have missed the point of the bell curve.
also tried individual 2d6 for each point of damage that worked well, but in smaller games, once we got to more than a dozen mechs on the table the "all or nothing" method seems fine, even with split fire - say six damage, four one way, two another, individual die rolls
it works out in the round, could also go with the individual rolls once the number of mechs drop towards the end of the game perhaps as the camera focus zooms in so to speak.
its a lovely little game, and well worth taking the time to look at the non-mech bits, e.g. the advanced terrain rules so woods are not a flat +1, but based on how much woodland there is. the battlefield support stuff is good, and a perfect way to deal with one or two irritating TMM+4 mechs bouncing about
We use the optional rule where on a hit you roll a d6 for each potential point of damage, needing a 3+ to succeed. Minimum damage of 1 point. Works well as a nice in between granularity.
privateer4hire wrote: We use the optional rule where on a hit you roll a d6 for each potential point of damage, needing a 3+ to succeed. Minimum damage of 1 point. Works well as a nice in between granularity.
That seemed cool too. Lots of neat ideas, I love that the community tinkers, and comes up with multiple solutions that all seem better (to me) than RAW...!
privateer4hire wrote: We use the optional rule where on a hit you roll a d6 for each potential point of damage, needing a 3+ to succeed. Minimum damage of 1 point. Works well as a nice in between granularity.
That seemed cool too. Lots of neat ideas, I love that the community tinkers, and comes up with multiple solutions that all seem better (to me) than RAW...!
Multiple Damage Rolls are RAW 😁 page 174
There’s so much stuff in the rules that you can add or ignore for whatever you are trying to accomplish.
I like the idea of giving unique skill/abilities for example but our group worries it will be OP.
privateer4hire wrote: We use the optional rule where on a hit you roll a d6 for each potential point of damage, needing a 3+ to succeed. Minimum damage of 1 point. Works well as a nice in between granularity.
That seemed cool too. Lots of neat ideas, I love that the community tinkers, and comes up with multiple solutions that all seem better (to me) than RAW...!
Multiple Damage Rolls are RAW 😁 page 174
There’s so much stuff in the rules that you can add or ignore for whatever you are trying to accomplish.
I like the idea of giving unique skill/abilities for example but our group worries it will be OP.
Technically, it is ORAW (Optional Rules as Written). It's the House Rule that makes it allowable.
We prefer the Multiple Dice Rolls Optional Rule in our group as the MDR can make it so nothing does Damage on a Hit. It also allows for Split-Firing should it be desired.
Didn't run the jets in the end, 250 points of just mechs. Opponent using IS for a change, and skill 4... he noted thats like the game on hard mode without the more usual skill 3 or 2 he runs on clan mechs.. likewise the low damage output. impressed by the armour though.
gave the Longbow and Stalker a run, both survived, though the stalker was crippled and backing off.. a Nightstar went from "I'm fully operation and advancing" to "bleep, one armour left!" in a turn, it wasn't a problem for long as they departed the field of glory in multiple directions the turn after.
good game though, plotting to try a campaign over the summer.
I have been having lots of fun with Alpha Strike, it's just a shame that my local group are such Classic junkies that they automatically hate Alpha Strike. I mean, they played it for a few weeks because we were all gearing up for a big AS game with Randall Bills in attendance.
But unfortunately, they immediately afterward started sighing about how it was an "underwhelming" and "simple" game compared to Classic, but they refuse to play with anything but the most basic rules. They don't want to use Special Ammunition, no Aerotech, no Battlefield Support assets, or anything. Nobody but me even wants to use Special Pilot Abilities or Command Abilities because the most outspoken person of the gaming group specifically hates Combat Intuition and has thus deemed all the SPA's equally "broken".
They even demand to play it, if at all, with the Wolfnet 350 tournament rules, making even the most casual games a "100% faction-pure, no extinct, unique, or experimental units" effort, which I think removes all the battlefield salvage charm of Battletech, as well as the fun of "this time, I want to run "X" unit in my force, just for the fun of it".
It's essentially just 250 point games of mechs and vehicles using basic attacks. They even kind of roll their eyes at using Forced Withdrawal. I don't get the gatekeeping of a game where the full rules aren't even given a fair shake.
It's just such a bummer. I have always felt that much like old Epic 40K, Alpha Strike is a great game at providing an efficiently streamlined form to play out the types of sweeping Battletech battles that lots of people seem to expect when they come into the tabletop game after reading the fiction or playing the video games. Just the sweet tableau of a 4x6 foot map full of immersive terrain and whole lances of tanks, mechs, and vtol's battling it out. Every night there has even been one game of Alpha Strike being played, onlooking customers at the store are very interested as they walk by and always ask questions.
Sometimes I wish there was a better local community that was amenable to Alpha Strike, but I always find myself lamenting how Classic players look down on the game.
Classic has it's place as a detailed skirmish game, but man, constant 10K BV games using 5-7 mechs (each side) that take 3-4 hours to resolve are a slog after a hard day at work. Classic always has me leaving a game feeling like I worked on a complex puzzle game the entire night, while Alpha Strike has always seen me leaving wishing I could play one more game, even when we play large 2v2 games where each player fields 250pts.
As a random side note, facing an entire 250pt Comstar force built around utilizing NARC is harsh, even with Multiple Damage Rolls.
Honestly, you're ranting to the wrong people, I think. Unless you just want affirmation, there's not much we can do as we are not there. And to be honest, I can't even guarantee affirmation.
AegisGrimm wrote: ...but they refuse to play with anything but the most basic rules. They don't want to use Special Ammunition, no Aerotech, no Battlefield Support assets, or anything...
Now that's just stupid. Battletech, whether Classic or Alpha Strike, is a combined arms game, even if Mechs are the focus.
The only time we disallow combined arms is because it is a special scenario like an Easter Egg hunt, or Battle Royale. That applies to both Classic as well as Alpha Strike.
AegisGrimm wrote: Nobody but me even wants to use Special Pilot Abilities or Command Abilities because the most outspoken person of the gaming group specifically hates Combat Intuition and has thus deemed all the SPA's equally "broken".
To be fair, if they come at no cost, then they are broken. That's why we don't play with them. The Battle Lance Formation can be quite broken all on its own.
Combat Intuition is an odd one, though. It's definitely more powerful in Alpha Strike than in Classic. In Alpha Strike it is activated on a cooldown. In Classic, it causes the Pilot to take a Wound (though no conscious checks).
AegisGrimm wrote: It's just such a bummer. I have always felt that much like old Epic 40K, Alpha Strike is a great game at providing an efficiently streamlined form to play out the types of sweeping Battletech battles that lots of people seem to expect when they come into the tabletop game after reading the fiction or playing the video games. Just the sweet tableau of a 4x6 foot map full of immersive terrain and whole lances of tanks, mechs, and vtol's battling it out. Every night there has even been one game of Alpha Strike being played, onlooking customers at the store are very interested as they walk by and always ask questions.
It is good at that. With our local biweekly campaign we often use it when the whole company is going to be on the board, each of the 5 players effectively fielding a lance or more of assets.
AegisGrimm wrote: Nobody but me even wants to use Special Pilot Abilities or Command Abilities because the most outspoken person of the gaming group specifically hates Combat Intuition and has thus deemed all the SPA's equally "broken".
To be fair, if they come at no cost, then they are broken. That's why we don't play with them. The Battle Lance Formation can be quite broken all on its own.
Combat Intuition is an odd one, though. It's definitely more powerful in Alpha Strike than in Classic. In Alpha Strike it is activated on a cooldown. In Classic, it causes the Pilot to take a Wound (though no conscious checks).
I honestly don't like the Formation Rules at all either, because of the free abilities. So far we have not been using them, only buying a force with pure points as you would in many other types of games. Instead I have been trying to get the group to use just a few Special Pilot Abilities based on the rules at the beginning of the SPA section, where the general rule of thumb is that 1 in 4 mech in your force can be given one or more SPA's, based on their Skill, and you pay for them with points. At at least that's how I interpret the rules in that section? So, for instance, in the matter of Combat Intuition, you first have to boost the unit to Skill 2 or 3, and then pay 3 points for the Ability?
So most of the time you are investing about 10 points into an Ability that can only be used by that one model, and only when winning Initiative, with a 2-turn cooldown, which does not really seem all that powerful, in the grand scheme of things.
Do any of you other players do such a thing? I think it's a great way to make a unit or two in your force into a "unique" character on the table.
AegisGrimm wrote: I honestly don't like the Formation Rules at all either, because of the free abilities. So far we have not been using them, only buying a force with pure points as you would in many other types of games. Instead I have been trying to get the group to use just a few Special Pilot Abilities based on the rules at the beginning of the SPA section, where the general rule of thumb is that 1 in 4 mech in your force can be given one or more SPA's, based on their Skill, and you pay for them with points. At at least that's how I interpret the rules in that section? So, for instance, in the matter of Combat Intuition, you first have to boost the unit to Skill 2 or 3, and then pay 3 points for the Ability?
So most of the time you are investing about 10 points into an Ability that can only be used by that one model, and only when winning Initiative, with a 2-turn cooldown, which does not really seem all that powerful, in the grand scheme of things.
Do any of you other players do such a thing? I think it's a great way to make a unit or two in your force into a "unique" character on the table.
Trust me when I say that a good portion of those SPAs are worth FAR more PV than the point tally they provide. 3 points to halve your Range modifiers on a unit that probably already costs 15 times that? They might as well be free at those levels. And that's not even considering that we're not talking on a Green or a Regular unit, but a Skill 3 or 2 unit who already has advantages at hitting those ranges over a Green or Regular.
Good to know, thanks. With no hands-on experience with quite a bit of the rules, I'm mostly theory-crafting some of the portions of the rulebook.
With my nigh-legendary horrible dice luck, most of the SPA's I was going to take are either to help with winning Initiative, "Floats like a Butterfly" for defense, or "Lucky" for offense, lol. And the latter two seem pretty balanced as you have limited uses.
I haven't used them in one-off affairs, but through a campaign series that uses the Classic version as well.
Float is quite handy. Lucky can be, too. And they are balanced by their charges.
However, most are not so much, like the Sniper SPA, are active all the time and can change the dynamic of the game appreciably in the right units. Think a Warhawk with Sniper SPA is downright nasty as it is hitting you in the Long Range bracket as if you were in Medium, and Medium Range only provides a minor modification.
Also remember that even with Lucky, the better the pilot, the more he can use. It's a snowball effect, and most of the SPAs really don't cost a lot. Skill changes tend to provide more of a difference than these do.
AegisGrimm wrote: I honestly don't like the Formation Rules at all either, because of the free abilities. So far we have not been using them, only buying a force with pure points as you would in many other types of games. Instead I have been trying to get the group to use just a few Special Pilot Abilities based on the rules at the beginning of the SPA section, where the general rule of thumb is that 1 in 4 mech in your force can be given one or more SPA's, based on their Skill, and you pay for them with points. At at least that's how I interpret the rules in that section? So, for instance, in the matter of Combat Intuition, you first have to boost the unit to Skill 2 or 3, and then pay 3 points for the Ability?
So most of the time you are investing about 10 points into an Ability that can only be used by that one model, and only when winning Initiative, with a 2-turn cooldown, which does not really seem all that powerful, in the grand scheme of things.
Do any of you other players do such a thing? I think it's a great way to make a unit or two in your force into a "unique" character on the table.
Trust me when I say that a good portion of those SPAs are worth FAR more PV than the point tally they provide. 3 points to halve your Range modifiers on a unit that probably already costs 15 times that? They might as well be free at those levels. And that's not even considering that we're not talking on a Green or a Regular unit, but a Skill 3 or 2 unit who already has advantages at hitting those ranges over a Green or Regular.
Yeah, we haven't tested them, but the pilot and formation abilities... feel overly powerful for the cost (or no cost at all). Kind of the reason why we ended up not using them yet.
I recall a while ago, someone posted a link to someone who had gone through the exercise of comparing the average damage output of RAW vs. the optional rules like the pilot die (i.e., a visually distinctive die rolled alongside one additional die per damage output, to get a varying level of damage output. One "damage" die should be larger, as only one set of dice can land a critical on a 12. I use a red die, a large white die for crits and the first point of potential damage, and smaller white dice for each additional point of potential damage) . I think their conclusion might have been that the average damage output of RAW vs. pilot die was similar.
But conceptually this doesn't make sense. The pilot die rule can *never* do more damage than RAW, but *can* do less damage than RAW and can do the *same* amount of damage as RAW.
Does anyone recall that post, and can point me to it? I wanted to re-read that person's assumptions and assertions, as I love the idea of the pilot die (plus it just feels fun, to roll a pack of dice and compare results), but I suspect if anything, it will extend games, by potentially doing less damage per turn.
Probably not a big deal, but I'm curious to see how much variance you might expect using the pilot die.
If anyone remembers that post and could point me to it... I'd be grateful, thanks!
Personally, I'm not a fan of the Pilot Die rule, as it is totally a House rule as well as can lock down an attack just as easily as promote it. In addition, with a single Crit die, it loses some of its luster. In Classic, I can Crit with every single gun I fire, and smash more than just one thing. With MDR, you can't TAC multiple things, you just have more chances to get a TAC at all.
A lot would depend on if they were tracking per Attack or over the course of a game.
Per Attack, obviously any MDR will be lower than the default single roll. There are few times I've been able to connect with more than 3 Damage using MDR.
Over the course of the game, however, it will be different. Say you're using a unit that does 5/5/3. At Long Range, getting that 3 to Hit is unlikely on one pair of die. Adding in 2 more rolls increases the chance of at least doing 1 Damage.
As you approach Medium Range, hits become more likely, but the probability curve still keeps it low. So you might hit with 3/5 Rolls. For default rules, that's 15 Damage out of a potential 25. While it balances out with doing 3 Damage per Turn over 5 Turns, there's also more of a chance to do 4-5 Damage that Turn (as well as more of a chance to do 2). That makes it more swingy instead of spiky.
TAC = Through Armor Critical - It's basically the result of rolling 12 To-Hit.
MDR = Multiple Dice Rolls - An official Optional Rule: Instead of rolling 1 pair of dice for all the Damage, you roll a pair of dice for each point of Damage you're going to inflict. Useful for Splitting Fire. You can also include Special Damage (such as Precision AC Ammo) along with normal Attack dice using this method.
Pilot Dice is based on MDR, but instead of rolling a pair of dice, you have 1 single die that acts as a pilot to the rest of the dice. You then roll a single die for every point of Damage you're going to inflict and add that to the Pilot Die to see if it hits.
Another house rule that some people add to MDR and Pilot Dice is that only one die can Crit. Theoretically, this is to reduce the chances of a Crit happening to what it is under the standard rules from the more chances MDR and Pilot dice bring, but it still throws off the chance the other way.
Charistoph wrote: TAC = Through Armor Critical - It's basically the result of rolling 12 To-Hit.
MDR = Multiple Dice Rolls - An official Optional Rule: Instead of rolling 1 pair of dice for all the Damage, you roll a pair of dice for each point of Damage you're going to inflict. Useful for Splitting Fire. You can also include Special Damage (such as Precision AC Ammo) along with normal Attack dice using this method.
Pilot Dice is based on MDR, but instead of rolling a pair of dice, you have 1 single die that acts as a pilot to the rest of the dice. You then roll a single die for every point of Damage you're going to inflict and add that to the Pilot Die to see if it hits.
Another house rule that some people add to MDR and Pilot Dice is that only one die can Crit. Theoretically, this is to reduce the chances of a Crit happening to what it is under the standard rules from the more chances MDR and Pilot dice bring, but it still throws off the chance the other way.
Thanks, that makes sense.
I don't understand your comment about the probability of criticals occurring, though.
RAW, you have a 1/36 chance (about 2.8%) of a crit, right? Allowing all sets of dice for Pilot or MDR to trigger a crit (presumably a maximum of only one crit per attack, just a higher chance of it happening) raises your chances to crit based on your damage output. With the "one set of dice can crit" stipulation to the Pilot or MDR variants, you also have a 1/36 chance to crit. I don't think it's throwning the chance the other way, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
pancakeonions wrote: RAW, you have a 1/36 chance (about 2.8%) of a crit, right? Allowing all sets of dice for Pilot or MDR to trigger a crit (presumably a maximum of only one crit per attack, just a higher chance of it happening) raises your chances to crit based on your damage output. With the "one set of dice can crit" stipulation to the Pilot or MDR variants, you also have a 1/36 chance to crit. I don't think it's throwning the chance the other way, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
That's the illusion everyone operates under.
While that one pair of dice could potentially Crit with MDR, you're actually throwing more dice, throwing the general results off. It's 1/36 for that one pair of dice, but you're not actually throwing one pair of dice over all. It throws off your results over all.
pancakeonions wrote: But conceptually this doesn't make sense. The pilot die rule can *never* do more damage than RAW, but *can* do less damage than RAW and can do the *same* amount of damage as RAW.
I don't know the post you're referring to, but I think the part that you're missing is that the pilot die is less likely to do zero damage.
Default RAW is binary all-or-nothing. Rolling 2D6 per point of damage tends to produce very 'average' results, with you being unlikely to inflict either no damage or full damage. The pilot die mechanic lies in between the two.
That's true, Catbarf, and it's something I'm wrestling with. Gonna have to talk to some experts... Does a mech, e.g., throwing 5 damage at medium range, do more damage over time with Pilot or RAW? MDR doesn't interest me (tossing pairs of dice and trying to sort that out sounds too tedious IMO) but I'm curious about that one too.
But with regards to criticals, Charistoph, I think everyone operates over the illusion, because ... it's not an illusion. I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with RAW, I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with Pilot and designating two dice as the "crit dice". This is the same for MDR. Each set of dice is independent (presumably!) so rolling more of them is not relevant to the crit dice.
If we start fishing for crits with MDR (and assuming you only allow one crit, no matter how many boxcars you toss), our chance of critting starts going up based on the number of pairs we're rolling. Two damage/dice-pairs: 5.5%, 3 damage: 8.1%, 4 damage: 10.7%, 5 damage: 13.1%. Basically it's: 1 - ((35/36)^(Number of rolls))
This will be a little wonky under Pilot dice rules.
Which could be fine; a big, bad mech throwing piles of damage should maybe probably be able to crit more than a wee infantry man shooting rubber bands... But you should be aware the chance of crits goes up pretty dramatically as you roll more attempts.
pancakeonions wrote: That's true, Catbarf, and it's something I'm wrestling with. Gonna have to talk to some experts... Does a mech, e.g., throwing 5 damage at medium range, do more damage over time with Pilot or RAW? MDR doesn't interest me (tossing pairs of dice and trying to sort that out sounds too tedious IMO) but I'm curious about that one too.
But with regards to criticals, Charistoph, I think everyone operates over the illusion, because ... it's not an illusion. I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with RAW, I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with Pilot and designating two dice as the "crit dice". This is the same for MDR. Each set of dice is independent (presumably!) so rolling more of them is not relevant to the crit dice.
If we start fishing for crits with MDR (and assuming you only allow one crit, no matter how many boxcars you toss), our chance of critting starts going up based on the number of pairs we're rolling. Two damage/dice-pairs: 5.5%, 3 damage: 8.1%, 4 damage: 10.7%, 5 damage: 13.1%. Basically it's: 1 - ((35/36)^(Number of rolls))
This will be a little wonky under Pilot dice rules.
Which could be fine; a big, bad mech throwing piles of damage should maybe probably be able to crit more than a wee infantry man shooting rubber bands... But you should be aware the chance of crits goes up pretty dramatically as you roll more attempts.
Which is a problem... why, exactly?
That's how crits, especially TAC, work in the main game. The more separate shots hit, the more crits you're likely to score. Yes, a single AC/20 hit will likely breach the armor wherever it hits but if the armor holds there's only 1/36 chance of a TAC, but ten SRMs will almost certainly NOT breach the armor but have a roughly 1 in 4 chance of getting a TAC per turn.
Of course, Alpha Strike does not distinguish between an AC/20 and ten SRMs, so that might be an issue.
pancakeonions wrote: That's true, Catbarf, and it's something I'm wrestling with. Gonna have to talk to some experts... Does a mech, e.g., throwing 5 damage at medium range, do more damage over time with Pilot or RAW? MDR doesn't interest me (tossing pairs of dice and trying to sort that out sounds too tedious IMO) but I'm curious about that one too.
Pilot Dice is MDR with a narrower scale. I don't find it that irritating since I do it in Classic, too, particularly with units like the Hunchback 4P where I'm firing off 8 Medium Lasers, or the Arctic Wolf where I'm shooting 6 SRM-6s
pancakeonions wrote: But with regards to criticals, Charistoph, I think everyone operates over the illusion, because ... it's not an illusion. I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with RAW, I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with Pilot and designating two dice as the "crit dice". This is the same for MDR. Each set of dice is independent (presumably!) so rolling more of them is not relevant to the crit dice.
If we start fishing for crits with MDR (and assuming you only allow one crit, no matter how many boxcars you toss), our chance of critting starts going up based on the number of pairs we're rolling. Two damage/dice-pairs: 5.5%, 3 damage: 8.1%, 4 damage: 10.7%, 5 damage: 13.1%. Basically it's: 1 - ((35/36)^(Number of rolls))
This will be a little wonky under Pilot dice rules.
Which could be fine; a big, bad mech throwing piles of damage should maybe probably be able to crit more than a wee infantry man shooting rubber bands... But you should be aware the chance of crits goes up pretty dramatically as you roll more attempts.
Your error, and where the illusion lies, is that I'm comparing the crit chance to MDR, when I'm comparing it to the standard 1 pair of dice.
See, with the pilot dice, while you're only rolling one pair for the Crit, you're also rolling more dice over all. When taken in total, the end result will be off simply due to that volume.
The best results I have had over about 10 games (including several 2v2 multi-player games) is using MAR. (Multiple Attack Rolls)
On one end of the spectrum is Normal Damage, which is super swingy and sees either your one chance to hit miss completely, or you just completely delete low armor/Structure units off the board with one attack from high-damage units. It certainly makes units die quickly, though. Natural Crits are few and far between. This method of damage is where things like Combat Intuition really feel broken when you have Skill 2 High-damage units kill things without even being able to be hurt in return.
On the other end is the Pilot Die method, which drops the all-or-nothing from above. It makes the game "feel" like you are shooting more weapons systems, but sees very few (but a few more) natural 12's rolled, as you HAVE to roll a 6 on the pilot die to combine another 6 with.
MAR has worked the best for us. It feels like in Classic where you are shooting lots of weapons at a target, splitting fire is super easy, and even though a single pool of "attacks" can only result in one Natural Crit even if you roll multiple sets of boxcars, they still show up more often. I initially thought it would be too often, but we have had several games with very few Natural Crits on either side.
Light units have a chance to survive more than one turn of shooting at them, which feels better. It lets my cool models do crazy lucky shots, but still for the most part they stay on the table for a satisfying time.
For instance in Classic I have had an enemy Victor blaze away at my Owens from frighteningly close range, and the Owens survived with just the loss of an arm because of unlucky rolls by the attacker. This makes Alpha Strike with Multiple Attack Rolls have that same feel (with a Light/Medium mechs having a bunch of armor damaged and maybe a Fire Control or Weapon crit by a good attack, but still surviving).
I figure my best results of playtesting is when introducing my 9-yo son to Alpha Strike with two games where we each fielded a 125pt Lance. One with a Pilot Die, and a second one with standard Multiple Attack Rolls. He said the second one "felt better" with absolutely no knowledge of Battletech other than "mechs are cool".
AegisGrimm wrote: The best results I have had over about 10 games (including several 2v2 multi-player games) is using MAR. (Multiple Attack Rolls)
On one end of the spectrum is Normal Damage, which is super swingy and sees either your one chance to hit miss completely, or you just completely delete low armor/Structure units off the board with one attack from high-damage units. It certainly makes units die quickly, though. Natural Crits are few and far between. This method of damage is where things like Combat Intuition really feel broken when you have Skill 2 High-damage units kill things without even being able to be hurt in return.
On the other end is the Pilot Die method, which drops the all-or-nothing from above. It makes the game "feel" like you are shooting more weapons systems, but sees very few (but a few more) natural 12's rolled, as you HAVE to roll a 6 on the pilot die to combine another 6 with.
MAR has worked the best for us. It feels like in Classic where you are shooting lots of weapons at a target, splitting fire is super easy, and even though a single pool of "attacks" can only result in one Natural Crit even if you roll multiple sets of boxcars, they still show up more often. I initially thought it would be too often, but we have had several games with very few Natural Crits on either side.
Light units have a chance to survive more than one turn of shooting at them, which feels better. It lets my cool models do crazy lucky shots, but still for the most part they stay on the table for a satisfying time.
For instance in Classic I have had an enemy Victor blaze away at my Owens from frighteningly close range, and the Owens survived with just the loss of an arm because of unlucky rolls by the attacker. This makes Alpha Strike with Multiple Attack Rolls have that same feel (with a Light/Medium mechs having a bunch of armor damaged and maybe a Fire Control or Weapon crit by a good attack, but still surviving).
I figure my best results of playtesting is when introducing my 9-yo son to Alpha Strike with two games where we each fielded a 125pt Lance. One with a Pilot Die, and a second one with standard Multiple Attack Rolls. He said the second one "felt better" with absolutely no knowledge of Battletech other than "mechs are cool".
Rad! So for MDR, do you roll a handful of matched pairs, one set per potential damage? Or do you prefer to roll 2d6 X times one after the other, where X is the potential damage? I've only played twice, both with RAW, and both felt a little... 'wrong'. Admitedly, I fall more into your son's "mechs are cool" category, as I have very little exposure to Battletech beyond the fact that, as the thread title clarifies, it is awesome.
pancakeonions wrote: That's true, Catbarf, and it's something I'm wrestling with. Gonna have to talk to some experts... Does a mech, e.g., throwing 5 damage at medium range, do more damage over time with Pilot or RAW? MDR doesn't interest me (tossing pairs of dice and trying to sort that out sounds too tedious IMO) but I'm curious about that one too.
Pilot Dice is MDR with a narrower scale. I don't find it that irritating since I do it in Classic, too, particularly with units like the Hunchback 4P where I'm firing off 8 Medium Lasers, or the Arctic Wolf where I'm shooting 6 SRM-6s
pancakeonions wrote: But with regards to criticals, Charistoph, I think everyone operates over the illusion, because ... it's not an illusion. I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with RAW, I have a 2.8% of rolling a crit with Pilot and designating two dice as the "crit dice". This is the same for MDR. Each set of dice is independent (presumably!) so rolling more of them is not relevant to the crit dice.
If we start fishing for crits with MDR (and assuming you only allow one crit, no matter how many boxcars you toss), our chance of critting starts going up based on the number of pairs we're rolling. Two damage/dice-pairs: 5.5%, 3 damage: 8.1%, 4 damage: 10.7%, 5 damage: 13.1%. Basically it's: 1 - ((35/36)^(Number of rolls))
This will be a little wonky under Pilot dice rules.
Which could be fine; a big, bad mech throwing piles of damage should maybe probably be able to crit more than a wee infantry man shooting rubber bands... But you should be aware the chance of crits goes up pretty dramatically as you roll more attempts.
Your error, and where the illusion lies, is that I'm comparing the crit chance to MDR, when I'm comparing it to the standard 1 pair of dice.
See, with the pilot dice, while you're only rolling one pair for the Crit, you're also rolling more dice over all. When taken in total, the end result will be off simply due to that volume.
lol. Respectfully, I think we're talking at cross purposes... The end result may very well be different in terms of damage output, yes, but RAW vs. MDR vs. Pilot (each with only one set of crit dice) all have a 2.8% chance of a critical hit. Anyway, I'm clearly not understanding, lol, so I'll just climb back into my Urbanmech, stall the motor once or twice awkwardly, then slink away in a cloud of black smoke once I get the damn thing to fire up.
Rad! So for MDR, do you roll a handful of matched pairs, one set per potential damage? Or do you prefer to roll 2d6 X times one after the other, where X is the potential damage? I've only played twice, both with RAW, and both felt a little... 'wrong'. Admitedly, I fall more into your son's "mechs are cool" category, as I have very little exposure to Battletech beyond the fact that, as the thread title clarifies, it is awesome.
Sorry, I misspoke in my post.
There are actually FOUR(!) different ways some groups roll for damage with Alpha Strike. There's the main rules style, then the two types of Variable Damage in the Commanders Edition, AND the "Pilot Die" that some groups prefer to use instead. They all function differently and are not compatible. All my games use Multiple Attack Rolls, though sometimes I accidently call them MDRs instead (I went back and corrected my post where I did just that).
Multiple Damage Rolls are something I have never used. In that way, you roll 2D6 like normal, and if you hit, you have to roll a D6 for every point of damage the unit can do with that attack, and anything that rolls 3+ does damage. I don't like it because everything takes two rolls, and then the To-Hit rolls are the swingy all-or-nothing like with the main rules, AND even if you hit with the one roll, then you can still miss all your damage rolls and do the pitiful "minimum 1 damage" rule enabled when using that method.
I personally like using Multiple Attack Rolls. When you are making a weapon attack, you figure out the TN with Sator as normal, and then simply gather up as many pairs of dice (make sure they are unique pairs to tell them apart) as your mech can do in damage at that range, and roll them all once, so it's fast, a little bit forgiving, and determinative. Each pair that meets or exceeds the TN does a point of damage to the target. If at least one point of structure is damaged by the complete attack (NOT per hit), you get to make a single crit roll. If any one of the to-hit rolls is a double six, you also get to roll a crit roll even if there is armor left after damage is marked off. It really feels like a bunch of weapons all hitting or missing separately.
If you are attacking form the rear arc (the triangle) of the target, you simply add one additional pair of dice to the attack.
Physical Attacks are never made with any sort of Variable Damage as far as I know. You just figure the TN like the normal rules, roll a single pair of dice, and if they hit, you do all your physical damage (based on size and weapon if available) to the target, similar to the standard damage rules. Structure Crits and Natural Crits work just like above. So it's an all-or-nothing gamble.
I like how the two ways of doing damage scale against each other. One big punch or kick, versus a bunch of weapons that may not all hit, but sometimes they might just actually ALL hit, and at the very least, all those weapons blazing away at once increases the chances of lucky hits.
Then of course there's all the crazy Physical Attack stuff like Death From Above attacks, Charging, etc. I've honestly never had to resolve any of those!
Officially speaking, Splitting Fire is only available with MAR.
AegisGrimm wrote: Physical Attacks are never made with any sort of Variable Damage as far as I know. You just figure the TN like the normal rules, roll a single pair of dice, and if they hit, you do all your physical damage (based on size and weapon if available) to the target, similar to the standard damage rules. Structure Crits and Natural Crits work just like above. So it's an all-or-nothing gamble.
That is how the rules work. House rules obviously may be different.
If you think it's crazy with normal rules, check out some of the Melee SPAs. They make it even nastier and stronger. Melee Specialist for a -1 To-Hit. Melee Master adds 50% of its Size to the Attack. Street Fighter adds in the S Damage to the Attack. Put it in a Mech that has a MEL and TSM, you have something REALLY scary.
In our campaign, our unit commander almost has all those abilities. He's piloting a heavily modified Shadow Hawk with a Snub-Nosed PPC, Hatchet, TSM, and the Engine from a captured Vapor Eagle. All told and Heated up, he's at 7 Damage! I think when he gets Melee Master he'll be at 8. Pretty nasty for a Size 2 'Mech.
I could have sworn that you could split-fire with the normal rules, as the "Other Modifiers" of the SATOR chart has "Secondary Target" listed. Unless that is just referencing the +1 modifier when splitting fire using MARs.
As for Melee SPA's, I am currently painting up a 3D-printed Hunchback IIC model where I removed the pulse laser barrels and used green stuff to sculpt a pair of missile 6-pack holes in their place so I can run it as an Inner Sphere Hunchback 4SP. I am thinking of trying it out with the Fist Fire SPA for some real "Danger Close!!" action as he blazes away with SRM's as he punches you, for double the damage that he would normally do in melee- equal to being kicked by an assault mech!
Ironically, the player who thinks SPA's are broken also thinks that standard and melee-based physical attacks are extremely lackluster and not worth trying to make. I keep trying to convince him that a surprisingly large number of the SPAs that he hates actually make physical attacks quite a bit better, as you said above.
As far as I can tell something like an Axeman with "Swordsman" for instance, if they roll a Natural Crit to hit, and do at least one point of structure damage to the target, with that SPA they could make three crit rolls against that target!
AegisGrimm wrote: Light units have a chance to survive more than one turn of shooting at them, which feels better. It lets my cool models do crazy lucky shots, but still for the most part they stay on the table for a satisfying time.
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, but it's more the opposite.
If I have a 6-damage attack shooting at a unit with just 2 hits and needing 10+ to hit, under the base rules it's all-or-nothing and I have a 17% chance of splattering it. With multiple attack rolls, I just need at least two out of those six to connect, which has about a 26% chance, on top of the 40% chance of doing one point. There's only a 33% chance of the target escaping unscathed, compared to 83% with the all-or-nothing system.
Multiple attack rolls makes crippling or destroying light units significantly easier, since hitting them with attacks that under the base rules would otherwise overkill instead increases the likelihood of damage. Of course it does also make that damage tend to accrue rather than a unit being fine until it suffers spontaneous existence failure, but on the whole those light mechs don't stick around as long.
I do agree that does make sense for units like Dashers or Bug mechs that are on the extreme low end of the armor/structure scale, but when you get into light and medium units that have something like say, 3 Armor and 2 Structure, with Multiple Attack Rolls in the games we have played they don't seem to face nearly as many instances of a 5-damage attack just killing them in one attack, unless (justifiably) at extremely close range.
It also makes bad rolls less of a bummer, as usually you can at least do at least a slight amount of damage as a consolation prize.
The other thing we noticed is that with standard damage rolls, lots of light and even some medium units barely ever see critical hit or or motive hit checks even need to exist, unless they are getting shot by extremely weak attacks.
As an amusing side thought on that, Protomechs have a Critical Chart like Mechs and Combat Vehicles, even though only the largest can take more than 2 Damage at all, 1 Armor and 1 Structure (if they even HAVE Armor) is the most common Alpha Strike set up.
That doesn't compare to what the Great Turtle (22A/8S) and Viking IIC (17A/7S) can endure. Talk about units most likely to die to Critical hits...
AegisGrimm wrote: Wow. I never had heard of those two mechs (well, other than the original Clan-Era Viking). That's.....insane.
Benefits of being Assault Mechs with Hardened Armor.
In fact the Great Turtle was designed with survivability in mind. It's a 100 ton Quad with near-maxed out Hardened Armor. It only carries a little more firepower than a Wolverine 6M, though, and is only a little faster than an Annihilator.
I know about the Viking IIC when we were to bring one Assault, no limits. That's what someone on my team brought, and he spent like 90% of the time standing in one place firing off LRMs and laughing at return fire. Till he eventually got a leg Crit and fell down... or was it the Gyro...?
I used an Osteon Prime with its vast array of Ammo bins to play around with iATM Ammo. Mag Pulse is no joke when the target's trying to run away.
