56821
Post by: mrgrigson
Hasbro just revealed the revamp of Heroscape, 45 day pre-order window via their Haslab platform.
$250USD base price. More models than the original base kits, but all unpainted. Terrain looks like a similar count, but includes jungles and ruins.
1478
Post by: warboss
The original was a very varied source of minis and I bought some packs for random RPG reasons for myself and the base set plus some boosters for young cousins to try and hook them into tabletop gaming. Other than the varied sculpts, the big benefits were the price and being prepainted which unfortunately isn't the case here. I'm not sure why they decided to take that route when the painted aspect was so key to the original.
93221
Post by: Lance845
The game was great. I used to play the gak out of this with my nephews. Says it's fully backwards and forwards compatible.
85386
Post by: Chairman Aeon
Preprinted was the standard at the time of Heroclix and D&D blind packs. Then the bottom fell out as costs rose significantly and repainted minis basically disappeared.
My problem with this crowd fund is the price, like Kingdom Death money for a game I already have and a bunch of miniatures I could sum up as “meh”. Minis were never Heroscape’s strong point, but…
I’d like new stuff, but I don’t need new stuff and especially at that price.
6558
Post by: manic _miner
That is a very high price for what you get.
Still got two of the original sets and some of the expansions that we got for our son.
As to them not being painted that might have something to do with keeping the cost down,People mentioning that the original series would have been better unpainted or the not knowing how things with China are going.I did hear about different Countries bringing production back into thier sphere instead of out sourcing.
£250 is way higher than GW stuff too.So this will be interesting to see how this goes.
I do like the Sci-Fi Insect type faction.
63623
Post by: Tannhauser42
Yeah, that's a bit of a steep price to buy in if you've never played the game before.
They're also at currently 1030 backers out of a target of 8000. While I'm sure they'll hit that in 44 days, I can't help but wonder if they would already be there if they had used Kickstarter instead of their own platform. Hasbro Pulse just does not have the same reach as Kickstarter or even Gamefound within the boardgame community.
93221
Post by: Lance845
Value Comparison from Reddit User.
Wanted to do a price analysis on this set to see how it compares to the original Heroscape stuff. Obviously we must keep in mind, RotV, the original Master Set was a huge loss leader to get people bought into the Heroscape eco-system. Just bear that in mind, as there will never be another board game printed that can provide that level of value and be produced at that scale.
Anyways, here's what's included in this $250 release:
71 finely detailed miniatures, in molded colors that denote their affiliations.
50 army cards, providing game rules for your miniatures.
An expandable hex-based modular tile terrain system, including 74 base pieces and 68 wall terrain pieces, 9 jungle terrain pieces, with which you can build varied, multilevel landscapes for your battles.
5 original factions designed for this game, each with unique skills and strategies. Play as the Dryan Lifeborne Order, the Nemesis War Brood, the Dawn Raider Syndicate, the Clockwork Combine, or the Ironclad Collective!
Customizable armies in which each figure is given a point value, allowing you to choose which units to include in your army to suit your own playstyle.
20 game scenarios specially created for AGE OF ANNIHILATION.
Here's the closest approximation to that lot we can make with original Heroscape releases:
RotV $40 in 2004 ($63 in 2022) - 16 army cards (30 miniatures, but we'll be using army cards as it's easier to estimate total quantities).
85 base terrain pieces is roughly equivalent to the 74 we get in AoA.
Ticalla Jungle $20 in 2007 ($28 in 2022) - 3 Jungle trees, 6 jungle bushes. This is the most 1:1 comparison we have between old and new sets, getting the same items in the same quantities in this release.
Fortress of the Archkyrie $30 in 2006 ($44 in 2022) - This is the hardest one to quantify in the new release since the original fortress and new modular ruin system seem to be fulfilling different roles, but the quantity of plastic for both at least seems comparable to me.
3 figures waves (12 figure packs at $13 ea) $156 in 2005 ($235 in 2022) - There are 50 army cards included in AoA, significantly more than the 16 available in RotV. Since we've already found equivalents for all the terrain in this new set, the most sensible way to equate the 34 remaining unit cards is the method Heroscape originally used, of selling individual miniature packs. These were released in waves throughout the years, most standardly in the format of 5 heroes in 1 pack, and 2 squads in each of the remaining 3 packs for a total of 11 unit cards per wave. This equates to 3 figure expansion waves being included in this release, in addition to the 16 base units. These packs were sold at $13 each in 2005 onward so that's the price basis.
In conclusion, to create a comparable lot from original Heroscape's release using MSRP would cost roughly $370 adjusted for 2022 inflation. This lot is $250. Now granted you're not getting painted minis anymore, which is certainly where that $120 savings comes from, but we have to remember the cost of shipping and hand painting has risen substantially in the past decade and a half. And it's a good thing, considering the original Heroscape was (for legal reasons, likely) painted in Chinese sweatshops (aka slave labor).
So props to Avalon Hill and Hasbro for offering a great value and a fantastic new addition to the Heroscape line!
70056
Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
 Tannhauser42 wrote:Yeah, that's a bit of a steep price to buy in if you've never played the game before.
They're also at currently 1030 backers out of a target of 8000. While I'm sure they'll hit that in 44 days, I can't help but wonder if they would already be there if they had used Kickstarter instead of their own platform. Hasbro Pulse just does not have the same reach as Kickstarter or even Gamefound within the boardgame community.
I wouldn't be so sure it'll hit the goal. I am majorly into Heroscape, and its online community is being weird about this. They spent years dreaming of a reboot, and yet a huge part of this community is delusional as to prices in this hobby. Its a weird community where most folks never played another minis game, and have this mad idea that a box like this should be $100, because they bought a loss-leader starter set for $40 twenty years ago.
Personally, $250 isn't incredible, but considering what I got for the same price for Kill-Team/Warcry in the last two months, its entirely acceptable.
66741
Post by: ced1106
Dakka isn't the target audience -- and it's not shipped to Europe, either. ): Heroscapers.com has supported the game with fan content since it ended, so they're the ones with pent-up demand. 
"$250 seems like a lot, but when you think about what you are getting it is comparable to old Heroscape. You get almost an old master set's worth of terrain (sparkly water has been confirmed), plus two expansions (jungle and "castle"), plus several waves worth of figures.
Well, thank goodness for that sparkly water. (No, really. I have it and it's way better than the non-sparkly stuff!) The plastic terrain also upped the price of HS (more expensive than a board), so it's about $2 per plastic piece, when including terrain and miniatures. Miniature quality is better than old HS, but not as good as hobbyists here would like.
I still haven't played my sets yet, of course. 
https://www.heroscapers.com/community/blog.php?b=3159#comments
44272
Post by: Azreal13
and it's not shipped to Europe, either.
Absolutely is, to the UK at least, with free delivery. The site is localised so you have to be on the correct version to see the correct shipping details.
EDIT Closer look shows continental Europe doesn't show it as available. Maybe it's a language thing or a UK based distribution center. Most likely language as I can't believe Hasbro don't have an EU option for distribution.
66741
Post by: ced1106
Plasticrack comes down to $1 apiece for miniatures, boardgame hexes, and terrain.
71 miniatures
74 hex tile terrain pieces
68 Laur wall terrain pieces
3 Laur tree pieces
6 Laur underbrush pieces
EDIT: "Free" shipping. Standard if you're competing against OLGS, but bahgain vs. KS projects.
Ball-o-Bugs? In.
Gerbil in a blimp? In.
Bears with harpoons? In.
Sorry DUN and Awaken Realms, but I'm leaning towards backing this big pile of stupid. 
1478
Post by: warboss
I'm biased because my favorite Overwatch design/character is the hamster riding his mecha ball. 
66741
Post by: ced1106
> I'm biased because my favorite Overwatch design/character is the hamster riding his mecha ball.
Haslab UK HS spotted! No EU seen, though. ):
https://uk.hasbropulse.com/collections/haslab/products/heroscape-age-of-annihilation-vangaurd-edition
"£249.99 including VAT and free delivery"
No gerbil inna ball (: but one in a walking tin can with a skull on it!
130394
Post by: EviscerationPlague
I'm buying the set because I need the bears with harpoons
126423
Post by: modelhunter
Is anyone taking pre-orders for Australia?
24779
Post by: Eilif
I really like those bear figs as well but not enough to buy in at 250.
I do think the wall segments are very cool though and that it is backwards compatible is great for fans.
Years back I stocked up on whatever cheap Heroscape I could find in preparation for gaming with my son and got all of MtG AOtP also. It's a very solid system for light Wargaming. However, we ended up skipping from Heroquest right to Grimdark Future. We might still play a bit at some point, but no paint and a bunch of factions that aren't terribly appealing (except the bears) makes this a bit of a meh for me.
I realize it's not a fair comparison, but compared to Heroquest which delivered the original goods in full and allot more, this feels like getting less for more.
130394
Post by: EviscerationPlague
 Eilif wrote:
I really like those bear figs as well but not enough to buy in at 250.
I do think the wall segments are very cool though and that it is backwards compatible is great for fans.
Years back I stocked up on whatever cheap Heroscape I could find in preparation for gaming with my son and got all of MtG AOtP also. It's a very solid system for light Wargaming. However, we ended up skipping from Heroquest right to Grimdark Future. We might still play a bit at some point, but no paint and a bunch of factions that aren't terribly appealing (except the bears) makes this a bit of a meh for me.
I realize it's not a fair comparison, but compared to Heroquest which delivered the original goods in full and allot more, this feels like getting less for more.
Well JUST buying it for the harpoon bears is an exaggeration but you get the point.
66741
Post by: ced1106
> Is anyone taking pre-orders for Australia?
Europe TBA! Join the Discord or look out on HeroScapers.com.
> Well JUST buying it for the harpoon bears is an exaggeration but you get the point.
Harpoons! Point! I can't BEAR it.
> I realize it's not a fair comparison, but compared to Heroquest which delivered the original goods in full and allot more, this feels like getting less for more.
Besides prepaints, I think the cost of HeroScape's plastic game tiles sent it to the chopping block. They're certainly more expensive than a game board. Just imagine if HeroQuest rooms were plastic game tiles that you attached to each other, and how much that would have cost. Many posts about the pledge mention the miniatures, not the terrain, not the game tiles. Only the hardcore, like HeroScapers, are even mentioning the value *to them* of the game tiles (eg. desire for a tiles-only pledge).
Fair doesn't matter. Value matters. And, while value is subjective, businesses profit only when they maximize value to the most consumers for the least cost. This doesn't just apply to HeroScape, but HeroQuest as well. Hasbro still has many fondly remembered game properties from its Avalon Hill acquisition that haven't even had a chance through crowdfunding. Thank goodness MMP licensed (Advanced) Squad Leader...!
107281
Post by: LunarSol
Heroscape was the first minis game I really dug into and got me started in the hobby. Huge fan of the system, even though I think it needs a few tweaks to really maximize the incredible maps the tiles let you construct. I still have everything released up to the introduction of the DnD waves and I'm excited to see how the promised backwards compatibility works.
That said, I'm probably passing on this. I feel like I need to be a little more picky when it comes to picking up unpainted projects and there only being an all in option means there's just a lot I don't really need. Hope it does well though. I'd love to see a new generation of fans discover a really fantastic game.
24779
Post by: Eilif
EviscerationPlague wrote: Eilif wrote:
I really like those bear figs as well but not enough to buy in at 250.
I do think the wall segments are very cool though and that it is backwards compatible is great for fans.
Years back I stocked up on whatever cheap Heroscape I could find in preparation for gaming with my son and got all of MtG AOtP also. It's a very solid system for light Wargaming. However, we ended up skipping from Heroquest right to Grimdark Future. We might still play a bit at some point, but no paint and a bunch of factions that aren't terribly appealing (except the bears) makes this a bit of a meh for me.
I realize it's not a fair comparison, but compared to Heroquest which delivered the original goods in full and allot more, this feels like getting less for more.
Well JUST buying it for the harpoon bears is an exaggeration but you get the point.
I do indeed.
Actually, if it were available as a separate pledge, I'd probably purchase the whole "Clockwork Combine". As it happens I sent the last of my Steampunk stuff off to a local game auction yesterday, but steampunk anthropomorphic animals would be alot of fun to paint.
Also, I notice that they seem to have done a good job of sculpting the figures with game plastic in mind. No attempts at super-fine detail, just bold designs that will both look good in bare plastic and likely paint up easy as well. I do think they are putting out a good product, I just wonder if it it's enough of the Nostalgia factor (Heroscape was only discontinued 10 years ago) to really succeed, because it appears to be priced well out of the "toy" market the game originally thrived in. Automatically Appended Next Post:  ced1106 wrote:
Besides prepaints, I think the cost of HeroScape's plastic game tiles sent it to the chopping block. They're certainly more expensive than a game board. Just imagine if HeroQuest rooms were plastic game tiles that you attached to each other, and how much that would have cost.
I'm suspicious of the idea that the tiles are as big a cost as folks think. As has been discussed many times here, the big cost of plastics is in purchasing new tooling. These are pieces that have been tooled already, and -as I didn't notice any flaws in the AOTP tiles, the tooling is likely still in good shape. Plus, the paint on the tiles is one-color, likely done automatically sprayed with a stencil. More expensive overall than a game board, but not unreasonable.
I do wonder why they didn't go with a hybrid board using the AOTP-style cardboard for the ground level and then lots of plastics (but far fewer than the current set) for various elevation above that. The set could have significantly less tiles overall, and still allow players MORE elevation in the game if using cardboard base layer.
66741
Post by: ced1106
Eilif wrote:I'm suspicious of the idea that the tiles are as big a cost as folks think. As has been discussed many times here, the big cost of plastics is in purchasing new tooling. These are pieces that have been tooled already, and -as I didn't notice any flaws in the AOTP tiles, the tooling is likely still in good shape. Plus, the paint on the tiles is one-color, likely done automatically sprayed with a stencil. More expensive overall than a game board, but not unreasonable.
I do wonder why they didn't go with a hybrid board using the AOTP-style cardboard for the ground level and then lots of plastics (but far fewer than the current set) for various elevation above that. The set could have significantly less tiles overall, and still allow players MORE elevation in the game if using cardboard base layer.
Buried somewhere on HeroScapers was a mention that the tile tools were lost, but the CAD files were found. Still at 8000 backers, that's $2M, which should pay for new tools. Mebbe I'll backtrack (: and say that when HS was cancelled, oil costs were high so the game tiles would be more expensive. Or just throwing up another Monopoly game would have greater profit margin than HS. I also thought about the board and plastic, but that would have turned off the hardcores, who are also buying the game for additional tiles. 10 years means cracked tiles, and OH BOY SPARKLY WATER.
Well, whatever. HS is up from 1300 to 1450 since I checked about yesterday. Here come the harpoon bears!
107281
Post by: LunarSol
At the time of cancelation new sculpts was more of a cost concern than the tiles. That's why they flipped to reusing the DnD minis while producing the terrain using existing terrain sculpts (the cave terrain reused the ice stuff).
24779
Post by: Eilif
I'd be curious if/when the tooling for basic tiles was lost. They were in production up until around 2016 for AotP.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
Eilif wrote:I'd be curious if/when the tooling for basic tiles was lost. They were in production up until around 2016 for AotP.
Maybe they just lost the big 18? hex sets or something? You're right though, I think AotP used the 1, 2, 3, and 7 hex tiles. A lot changed in plastic manufacturing since 2016 though so its certainly possible they lost everything after AotP.
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
So its not a normal Kickstarter?
107281
Post by: LunarSol
It uses Hasbro's proprietary Hasbro Pulse crowdfunding site that they've used for several nostalgia projects that aren't well suited to retail.
73496
Post by: Talking Banana
What kind of plastic are they using for the new figures? PVC, same as the originals?
I might have one or two old Heroscape figures kicking around somewhere, but if so, I haven't seen them in awhile. I've gotten pretty good at stripping paint from prepainted plastics, and those old Heroscape paint jobs were pretty poor, so I'd be curious to see what the quality of the miniature detail is underneath. Heroclix miniatures, especially those produced later on the line's history, can turn out to be surprisingly well-detailed once the factory paint is off. (A big pain in the butt to clean the mold lines from them, though.) If I can find one, I'd like to see how good the those old Heroscape sculpts are beneath the slapdash paint. Might give some idea of what to expect in terms of quality level to expect for these new figures.
All miniature terrain can probably be graded in terms of three main traits: durability, practicality (including storage, transport, and modularity for reconfiguration,) and aesthetics / naturalism / immersion, with some sacrifices expected in every category. I've always been torn between admiring the practical abstract design of Heroscape tiles and feeling like they don't quite fall on the right side of illusory immersion for me personally.
$250 is too much for me, but I do like some of the model designs, particularly the techno-Beastmen Dreadnoughts of New Tortuga. I also liked the Raakchott desecrator and thought it a particularly good iteration of a Leshy / Wendigo design until I blew up the image and noticed its prominent rabbit buck teeth, which make it look more like a yokel villain from Scooby-Doo.
Leshy: Duh, which way did dey go?
Shaggy and Scooby, disguised: THAT way.
Leshy shambles off, stage left.
The exclusive figures meant to sell this edition aren't quite hitting the mark, either: Scavorith looks good, but the Dragoon, with its weird belly-coasting rearing mount pose, is a head-scratching waste of a concept that could have been excellent. Is it really that hard to cast a giant insect mount with most of its legs actually touching the ground? Reaper manages it all the time.
Overall, I wish them wild success with this. Hopefully heroscapers will be happy (the wealthier ones, anyway,) and some good figures will eventually spin out of this that are appealing, affordable, and sold separately for the rest of us.
24779
Post by: Eilif
 LunarSol wrote:
It uses Hasbro's proprietary Hasbro Pulse crowdfunding site that they've used for several nostalgia projects that aren't well suited to retail.
Yep. To be fair, it's been a pretty successful way to make some really great and very expensive toys for collectors with deep wallets. If I had the means there's some giant Star Wars vehicles that I'd have bought in on just because nostalgia.
I think it's important for folks who first came to Haslab via Heroquest to know that if you want something from HasLab, you should get it when you can. Some products will eventually make it to retail but there is really no guarantee that something in HasLab will necessarily make it to retail or even reappear on the Hasbro site for sale.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
Too much for me for what they are offering. To be fair, it’s more like a $200 price tag for lower 48 folks since shipping is included there. Even so, it’s cool stuff but would have been better for many if they sold maybe factions separately or something.
5462
Post by: adamsouza
I would have been happier with more tiles and models and less walls and trees.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
 adamsouza wrote:I would have been happier with more tiles and models and less walls and trees.
Lack of proper LOS blocking is one of the biggest issues with the original game.
91723
Post by: Nomeny
They could probably sell the tiles on their own.
66741
Post by: ced1106
Walls are gud to better block line of sight. Otherwise, you'd have to build a wall of tiles to keep everything from hitting the big guy.
Trees are cheap because stupid jungle expansion costs $150+ for a bunch of aquarium trees.
Eh, buy it or don't. Lots of erstwhile HS fans don't like unpainted, don't like lack of historical units (because controversies), etc. etc.
130394
Post by: EviscerationPlague
ced1106 wrote:Walls are gud to better block line of sight. Otherwise, you'd have to build a wall of tiles to keep everything from hitting the big guy.
Trees are cheap because stupid jungle expansion costs $150+ for a bunch of aquarium trees.
Eh, buy it or don't. Lots of erstwhile HS fans don't like unpainted, don't like lack of historical units (because controversies), etc. etc.
It isn't like historicals can't come back. This is a revival after all, so doing something all fresh and then expansions with historicals is perfectly reasonable.
108384
Post by: kurhanik
ced1106 wrote:Walls are gud to better block line of sight. Otherwise, you'd have to build a wall of tiles to keep everything from hitting the big guy.
Trees are cheap because stupid jungle expansion costs $150+ for a bunch of aquarium trees.
Eh, buy it or don't. Lots of erstwhile HS fans don't like unpainted, don't like lack of historical units (because controversies), etc. etc.
Speaking as someone who usually *hates* kitchen sink fantasy, for whatever reason it was kind of endearing with the original Heroscape. Having Romans and Samurai duking it out against Marro (or whatever those swarm guys were called) was always fun.
Still going for it mind you, honestly the historical thing isn't that bad considering this is supposed to be fully backwards compatible. To me the much bigger issue is the price, even though it comes to under 4$ per model plus those sweet sweet tiles, 250$ is a big ask - even Games Workshop rarely goes that high.
Though yeah, if memory serves the Heroscape fan community really zeroed in on prepainted to be a core aspect of the game. Most of the fan rules they worked on, vetted, etc were based around prepainted model ranges as the idea was to just buy the models and immediately play the game.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
Twenty days left and they haven’t reached 3k of the required 8k backers. Do crowdfunding campaigns usually rally big at the end?
131294
Post by: Grail Seeker
 privateer4hire wrote:Twenty days left and they haven’t reached 3k of the required 8k backers. Do crowdfunding campaigns usually rally big at the end?
Hard to say. This is an interesting case because they don't use a mainstream crowdfunding campaign so it could behave very differently. But for comparisons sake. CMON just did a kickstarter for another edition of Cthuthlu: Death may Die and I received an email that they hit all their stretch goals a few hours after the campaign opened.
There might not be enough demand for unpainted heroscape that the price they are asking.
24779
Post by: Eilif
privateer4hire wrote:Twenty days left and they haven’t reached 3k of the required 8k backers. Do crowdfunding campaigns usually rally big at the end?
I've only bought into the Heroquest Haslab campaign and I've followed a few others, but IIRC, the uptake is usually much stronger. Heroquest funded almost immediately and went on to a good strong showing.
Not a good sign, but it's not over yet
1478
Post by: warboss
privateer4hire wrote:Twenty days left and they haven’t reached 3k of the required 8k backers. Do crowdfunding campaigns usually rally big at the end?
Yes*
*if they're already successful by the metric used at the start (funding goal typically). You can usually count on a successful campaign making about as much in the final 48 hours as it did in the first 48 hours as a general rule. Add salt as needed. YMMV.
63623
Post by: Tannhauser42
I feel like this would have been wildly successful if they had used Kickstarter instead of their own exclusive platform. Kickstarter reaches a much wider audience.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
Tannhauser42 wrote:I feel like this would have been wildly successful if they had used Kickstarter instead of their own exclusive platform. Kickstarter reaches a much wider audience.
Hasbro doesn't need or care about this project enough to be worth paying Kickstarter fees for it.
24779
Post by: Eilif
LunarSol wrote: Tannhauser42 wrote:I feel like this would have been wildly successful if they had used Kickstarter instead of their own exclusive platform. Kickstarter reaches a much wider audience.
Hasbro doesn't need or care about this project enough to be worth paying Kickstarter fees for it.
I'm not sure whether or not they care. They did have to put a fairly good effort in as far as design and such so there is some investment already. They have a history of successful Haslab campaigns and probably just assumed this would be another. That may have been shortsighted, but we'll never know unless they relaunch on KS, which is unlikely
I'm not sure what an established company like Hasbro with an established self-crowdfunding mechanism has any real incentive to give 8% of a product's gross sales to a company as comparatively small as Kickstarter.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
Care is probably the wrong word. They would like it to succeed, but if they are in no way dependent on its success. The people involved are obviously very passionate about it and plenty of care went into the design, but Hasbro isn't going to put more money into it if they can't get at least $2 million back.
63623
Post by: Tannhauser42
LunarSol wrote: Tannhauser42 wrote:I feel like this would have been wildly successful if they had used Kickstarter instead of their own exclusive platform. Kickstarter reaches a much wider audience.
Hasbro doesn't need or care about this project enough to be worth paying Kickstarter fees for it.
Yeah, that seems to be the case. Corporate greed is such that they don't just want some of the money, they want all of the money.
Not that it matters if this project succeeds or fails, Magic is what's keeping Hasbro in the black these days.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
DnD and all the toys and games and stuff aren't exactly hurting. Magic is probably somewhat negligible really.
63623
Post by: Tannhauser42
LunarSol wrote:DnD and all the toys and games and stuff aren't exactly hurting. Magic is probably somewhat negligible really.
Hasbro recently announced that Magic is becoming their first billion dollar brand. Wizards really is propping up the rest of the company.
66741
Post by: ced1106
fwiw, Before Hasbro realized D&D's brand, they were ready to jettison the line. Why did they buy WotC because of... Pokemon Which Nintendo later didn't renew with WotC. Which put D&D in trouble. (And when WotC was bought, the D&D electronic license was sold!)
Good news is that, yep, D&D *now* evidently isn't hurting. : https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/04/17/hasbro-doubles-down-on-dungeons-and-dragons/
3806
Post by: Grot 6
300.00?
Hey, I have this load of the old school Heroscape.
Pretty much everything but the D and D stuff. I jumped in hard back in the day when this first came out.
PM me, and we can talk.
$350.00, and you can be the proud owner of a whole gakload of stuff, and I'll even go over to my local game shop and pick up a couple of extra dragons that I'd just seen in there, the other day. (There's around 5 or 600.00 of it, by the look of this box and the listed numbers on Fee Bay.)
This stuff's just taking up space, so $350 bucks you get the Head, The Tail, The whole Damn thing. 
Game's a Gem, though. We had a lot of fun with it, back in the day. Unfortunately, I'm getting to the point where it's time to start trimming down some fat in my game rooms.
59050
Post by: pancakeonions
Grail Seeker wrote: privateer4hire wrote:Twenty days left and they haven’t reached 3k of the required 8k backers. Do crowdfunding campaigns usually rally big at the end?
Hard to say. This is an interesting case because they don't use a mainstream crowdfunding campaign so it could behave very differently. But for comparisons sake. CMON just did a kickstarter for another edition of Cthuthlu: Death may Die and I received an email that they hit all their stretch goals a few hours after the campaign opened.
There might not be enough demand for unpainted heroscape that the price they are asking.
Yikes, I was worried this wouldn't take off at this price... Just too steep to buy into!
89522
Post by: Dropbear Victim
I was kinda interested in Heroscape but the $788 Australian preorder price is insane for a game I have no experience with. Thats almost twice what Ive sunk into Mythic tier Heroquest and all its expansion rereleases.
66741
Post by: ced1106
> Not that it matters if this project succeeds or fails, Magic is what's keeping Hasbro in the black these days.
What I've noticed is that, if a company has multiple product lines, it keeps the ones that make money, and drops the ones that don't. Obviously, that means fans of the less popular lines are disappointed, but it also means that it's "better" to purchase a product line if it's the only one a company has. Conversely, once a company starts having the reputation of dropping product lines, customers will assume a DOA product, and this may become self-fulfilling. FFG was pretty well know to drop product lines, so when its RuneWhatever miniatures line came out (and didn't distinguish itself from the other miniature army games), reaction, including on Dakka, was one of "wait and see", eventually resulting in the game's cancellation.
Hasbro *has* licensed games out before, such as the Pit card game to Winning Moves. But obviously a card game has a lower cost than a miniatures game line. Too bad Hasbro didn't work something out with WizKids, a company that's released prepainted miniatures. Although their random miniatures model probably wouldn't be well-received by customers, and WK might not be interested in fixed packs of prepaints. Dunno.
121344
Post by: Sacredroach
For a snapshot of how profitable the Major segments of Hasbro (Q2 22):
Consumer Products (toys) made $734.2 million, with a profit of $3.1 million.
WoTC/Digital made $419.8 million, with a profit of $225.6 million.
Entertainment made $185.2 million, with a profit of $23.0 million
WoTC and WoTC digital are literally carrying Hasbro...
1478
Post by: warboss
Damn... that's alot of card packs and PHBs.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
Definitely not what I would have expected.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
To Friday morning qb this, seems like they might have gotten more interest from lower tier options. Things like terrain only, ala carte faction bundles, a smaller core game as a starter, might have been more attractive. Yes, it’s more complicated logistics but 100% of a project not funding is zero dollars.
24779
Post by: Eilif
privateer4hire wrote:To Friday morning qb this, seems like they might have gotten more interest from lower tier options. Things like terrain only, ala carte faction bundles, a smaller core game as a starter, might have been more attractive. Yes, it’s more complicated logistics but 100% of a project not funding is zero dollars.
From a Crowdfunding perspective you are correct. However, I suspect that like Heroquest they may be looking at this to see what it's wider uptake might be post Kickstarter. If they're counting on later sales, they might not want the crowdfunding campaign to be too easy to accomplish.
Put another way eeking out enough $ via add-ons to barely get it to production might not be enough if 8000 Core-Set Backers is management's threshold indicator of overall demand.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
True. They clearly have set a “why bother” level of funding to get it off the ground or not.
They win either way. And if it doesn’t launch they can get back to Star Wars and Transformers.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
Well, that was all they needed to clinch the remaining 5000 backers. Phew! They had us worried for awhile.
107281
Post by: LunarSol
As much as I absolutely despise the name, shouldn't the figures we've seen in orange already be under Valkill or whatever that last gasp release was called?
42288
Post by: Ghool
I have trouble understanding exactly who this is aimed at.
It doesn't make any of the old HS players want it due to unpainted minis, and simple repeats of the same terrain. So, it offers nothing new to old players and with unpainted minis, it will look odd next to their old stuff.
The price is far too much for new players, and it doesn't really sell what's great about the game. It's simply, 'Look at all these minis and terrain!' with little to rope in the players who have not heard of Heroscape before.
Haslab appears to be attempting to cash in on nostalgia, yet there's little here to incentivize that nostalgia with both the lack of a cheaper buy in for new players, and unpainted gobs of minis for the old players.
I think this is more a marketing issue, and a cash grab based on nostalgia, yet there's nothing here that will grab older or newer players at all. I'm sure that had the initial buy in been around $100-150, they would have made their target already.
As it stands right now, this doesn't seem to hit the target for either demographic, and which is why it's likely failing.
The other campaigns running at the same time as this one are also stagnating, and the modern Ghost Rider action figure one failed to fund. The Transformers campaign which has 'only' a buy in of $180 seems to be faltering as well.
I'm thinking that during an inflationary, out of control economy with supply chain disruptions might be a bad time to try and cash in with projects based entirely on nostalgia and collection mentalities.
Seems the past few Haslab projects are floundering. It also likely due to the lack of engagement and excitement since their site itself doesn't allow for discourse or commenting.
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
On normal kickstarter I think I might have gone for it
1478
Post by: warboss
 Ghool wrote:
Seems the past few Haslab projects are floundering. It also likely due to the lack of engagement and excitement since their site itself doesn't allow for discourse or commenting.
Admittedly, I don't follow them (or pledge... pay... whatever the term is!) directly myself but rather follow them peripherally via sources like this thread and various toy-afficionado youtube channels and the recent track record seems pretty dire. I fully admit that I may be missing some campaigns but of the last half dozen I recall hearing about, only one has or looks likely to fund (the Cobra HISS tank). The rancor, Reva lightsaber, ghostrider muscle car, and now this Heroscape project have either already failed or look like they will. Compared with early (unbroken string of?) successes like Jabba's sail barge, Unicron, Xmen Sentinel, Galactus, Razor Crest, and Heroquest, they seemed to have completely upended their track record as of late (and I'm pretty sure I missed some other successful campaigns in my list but those are the ones I recall from memory).
66741
Post by: ced1106
I haven't followed Haslab other than HeroQuest and HeroScape, but, since the shipping crisis months ago, crowdfunding has certainly dropped, especially with high inflation and the recession. Also, Amazon and other retailers are pushing the retail sales into October, adding more competition to what little budget consumers have for luxuries.
77922
Post by: Overread
privateer4hire wrote:Twenty days left and they haven’t reached 3k of the required 8k backers. Do crowdfunding campaigns usually rally big at the end?
My observation is that they can but, as said earlier, only if they already reached their funding goal. There's a reason most KS use earlybird backing options and pre-kickstarter marketing to help ensure that they hit their funding goal within the first few hours to first day of going live. If you fail to fund within that period there is a very good chance that the campaign will limp along through the month gaining very little traction and then on the last day it will more likely die or just limp to the funding goal. Thing is even if you don't get charged till the last day, people will pull out early and many KS rely on the idea that they will hit stretch goals and free unlocks and such to give best value for money. If they fail that then they are often less attractive so people pull out rather than back it just to get the "bare bones".
KS also tend to have very little gain during the funding period. The first few and last few days are the big game changers. That's why many KS went from 30 day to 15 day campaigns. The longer period in the middle would often not gain much and could sometimes run the risk of going backwards at times (and if a campaign starts going backwards it can turn into a runaway).
I also agree, whilst KS takes fees, it gets a much bigger audience. Even in niche markets like 3D printing, a KS will often do better than My Mini Factory's Frontiers - even though a large majority of 3d print customers likely already have a MMF account.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
And it failed to fund.
Wondering if there’s a plan b or if setting the bar so high was just a “well, we pitched it but fans just weren’t interested enough to fund it.”
103619
Post by: Monkeysloth
“As we said during the campaign if this project doesn’t meet its goal, we won’t be able to produce Age of Annihilation. That has not changed. HeroScape as a project will be shelved, and there are no current plans to attempt a resurrection at this time. The Avalon Hill team will refocus our efforts on the exciting games we currently have coming soon, such as the next HeroQuest Game System expansion, Mage of the Mirror, or the upcoming Yawning Portal D&D strategy board game.”
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
Thanks for that.
Darn fans failed each other and Hasbro.
85386
Post by: Chairman Aeon
I bet some random Chinese company wouldn’t need such a high bar to make some plastic tiles, minis and a bit of cardboard…
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
I can see it now:
Hero Escape!
Only one faction can defeat all the others to earn the Overlords’ Dimensions Key that will return them to their own place and time. Lead your heroes to defeat the opposing factions and to earn their escape!
MSRP $100
Includes over 70 miniatures, an expansive terrain set, dice, tokens and rules book.
1478
Post by: warboss
Chairman Aeon wrote:I bet some random Chinese company wouldn’t need such a high bar to make some plastic tiles, minis and a bit of cardboard…
privateer4hire wrote:I can see it now:
Hero Escape!
Only one faction can defeat all the others to earn the Overlords’ Dimensions Key that will return them to their own place and time. Lead your heroes to defeat the opposing factions and to earn their escape!
MSRP $100
Includes over 70 miniatures, an expansive terrain set, dice, tokens and rules book.
It's not an official authentic knockoff if it doesn't have at least one grammatical and/or spelling mistake.
4720
Post by: The Phazer
 warboss wrote:Chairman Aeon wrote:I bet some random Chinese company wouldn’t need such a high bar to make some plastic tiles, minis and a bit of cardboard…
privateer4hire wrote:I can see it now:
Hero Escape!
Only one faction can defeat all the others to earn the Overlords’ Dimensions Key that will return them to their own place and time. Lead your heroes to defeat the opposing factions and to earn their escape!
MSRP $100
Includes over 70 miniatures, an expansive terrain set, dice, tokens and rules book.
It's not an official authentic knockoff if it doesn't have at least one grammatical and/or spelling mistake.
TBF it's also not a legitimate Haslab project if it doesn't have one massive cockup that Hasbro fail to mention until they have had everyone's money for a year and started shipping the product out so no refunds.
24779
Post by: Eilif
One can blame the fans if they wish, but when you reboot without the prime feature of the original game (painted figures), none of the original factions, and a prohibitive price point, that seems like Hasbro's failure.
Seems like a stretch to blame the fans for not being willing to drop $250 on a product that wasn't what they wanted.
1478
Post by: warboss
Eilif wrote:
One can blame the fans if they wish, but when you reboot without the prime feature of the original game (painted figures), none of the original factions, and a prohibitive price point, that seems like Hasbro's failure.
Seems like a stretch to blame the fans for not being willing to drop $250 on a product that wasn't what they wanted.
I think he was being sarcastic and probably speaking in corporate apologist voice.
96627
Post by: frankelee
Yes, Hasbro cannot fail, it can only be failed. By you, the impudent, price sensitive consumer.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
warboss wrote: Eilif wrote:
One can blame the fans if they wish, but when you reboot without the prime feature of the original game (painted figures), none of the original factions, and a prohibitive price point, that seems like Hasbro's failure.
Seems like a stretch to blame the fans for not being willing to drop $250 on a product that wasn't what they wanted.
I think he was being sarcastic and probably speaking in corporate apologist voice.
Yeah. I was writing what I figured their response would be. Hey, Guys, we really tried but response by customers just didn’t show this to be a viable product line.
We’re off to make real money selling Star Wars stuff. Laters
60572
Post by: rybackstun
126423
Post by: modelhunter
66741
Post by: ced1106
left from Heroscapers.com :
Pre-Order from https://renegadegamestudios.com/heroscape/ and use promo code WELCOME10 (1st order) or WELCOMEBACK10 (if you ordered from Renegade before) for 10% off ($34 off if you get 1 of each including painted)
95983
Post by: punisher357
Anyone else disappointed with the designs renegade revealed? Why is the soulborg 4 armed robot wearing a cape? Why is the marro wearing shorts with a buckled belt full of pouches? Why did knight Oberon get renamed to knight Irene?
This first wave is a flop for me.
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
I really enjoyed this game so if there is a uk seller be interested
85386
Post by: Chairman Aeon
I can see getting the battle box, I have enough terrain from the Hasbro days and would like to encourage more development. It’s a nice starter set for a price point, but the mini selection is a bit weird for all the sets.
65284
Post by: Stormonu
Wow, Renegade is going to do the core for $120 AND the minis will be painted? Makes you realize how much of a gouge the Haslab kickstart was.
Sadly, I already have a ton of Heroscape from the first time around that I never actually got to play, so I think I'm better off passing on this and keep on picking up the Heroquest stuff that is coming out.
<edit> Oh, wait - the $120 version minis are not painted? You have to pay $225 for the prepaints? Jeez, no thanks!
107281
Post by: LunarSol
This was the first minis game I got deeply invested in and absolutely adored it. A lot has changed in the genre in the last decade though so I'm not sure I really need anything more of it to revisit the nostalgia. I'll personally be more curious to hear if they've added anything to improve the ability to improve the ability to play with elevation and the ability for melee to get in attacks or heroes to survive.
5513
Post by: privateer4hire
 Stormonu wrote:<edit> Oh, wait - the $120 version minis are not painted? You have to pay $225 for the prepaints? Jeez, no thanks!
Exactly.
66741
Post by: ced1106
Some speculation here, but...
Unfortunately, HS was a product of its time, and that meant that petroleum prices and prepainted costs were affordable to the hobby gamer.
Part of the HS failure was the lack of prepaints, and nowadays, for quite a while, the only way you could get prepaints is through random packs (where the quality of the prepaints for the commons was cheaper than the rares, so you were paying for the rare prepaints by buying the commons) or prepainted figure lines, which, outside of WizKids, are only by small companies, such as Renegade.
Is Krosmaster still around? ( I think that was one of the last gasps of prepaints sold in fixed sets b/c the sculpts were designed around stencil-painting, which I presume is cheaper than hand painting?
EDIT: HeroScapers.com's thread of designer news and comments about the new release : https://www.heroscapers.com/community/showthread.php?t=62464
107281
Post by: LunarSol
ced1106 wrote:
Unfortunately, HS was a product of its time, and that meant that petroleum prices and prepainted costs were affordable to the hobby gamer.
Effectively this. I've spoken with the developers over the years and really, the game died because it could no longer be produced profitably. I've heard estimates that costs jumped 6-7x what they were. Those last couple of years of DnD releases were mostly trying to get by reusing existing assets to keep the game alive until things became affordable again, but ultimately they never did.
As a game, I think some of its mechanics were far enough ahead of their time that there's value in seeing it return, but a lot of it also would hugely benefit from a revamp to expand what it could be. The rules are about perfect for creating a wildly accessible game to support an accessible model line but I don't feel like either the models or rules hold up when the barrier to entry puts it in competition with a lot of modern hobby games.
1478
Post by: warboss
In that case, how is Wizkids able to still run profitably prepainted lines in various genres as a licensee with additional costs on top of that?
107281
Post by: LunarSol
 warboss wrote:In that case, how is Wizkids able to still run profitably prepainted lines in various genres as a licensee with additional costs on top of that?
Funny enough, the Clix brand actually died around the same time. It probably would have vanished along with all the rest if not for the sudden surge in popularity for comic book characters at the time.
Clix is part of the blind purchase market and operates a little differently. Regardless of the game behind it, the product that is sold is designed around selling it as a singular entity. There is essentially one SKU per production run that before it even starts, its effectively already sold out to the distribution network. New sets essentially replace old in the product catalog so from a retail perspective, they stock "Clix" in boxes that get restocked with whatever is the current set. It means that they are able to hit places like Target and Wal-Mart and the like to reach numbers that make pre-paints viable. Blind purchase also means that as long as the set as a whole doesn't fail, even if sales go up and down they can adjust for future runs. Cheap commons are still an enormous development cost that in other systems could easily tank the line, but because they're not the real product, but part of a set that is sold as the whole thing, they can fill boosters while consumers chase what they want from the set.
Without blind purchase, you still have to sell in sets if you want big box stores to carry it. Heroscape walked a very dangerous line in that regard, as it mixed unique hero packs with repeat purchase commons and relied on everyone wanting the heroes to keep them from clogging shelves. It often worked, but when it didn't, it was a huge threat to the line. FWIW, this is the same reason that stuff like the Marvel Legends figure have the "build a figure" parts. It keeps unpopular figures from the set from clogging shelves and tanking the line as a whole.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
LunarSol wrote:
Without blind purchase, you still have to sell in sets if you want big box stores to carry it. Heroscape walked a very dangerous line in that regard, as it mixed unique hero packs with repeat purchase commons and relied on everyone wanting the heroes to keep them from clogging shelves. It often worked, but when it didn't, it was a huge threat to the line. FWIW, this is the same reason that stuff like the Marvel Legends figure have the "build a figure" parts. It keeps unpopular figures from the set from clogging shelves and tanking the line as a whole.
IIRC, the last thing the big box stores carried for Clix was the Movie and Big Event single model blind packs and that hasn't been done in ~5-10 years.
1478
Post by: warboss
LunarSol wrote: warboss wrote:In that case, how is Wizkids able to still run profitably prepainted lines in various genres as a licensee with additional costs on top of that?
Funny enough, the Clix brand actually died around the same time. It probably would have vanished along with all the rest if not for the sudden surge in popularity for comic book characters at the time.
Clix is part of the blind purchase market and operates a little differently. Regardless of the game behind it, the product that is sold is designed around selling it as a singular entity. There is essentially one SKU per production run that before it even starts, its effectively already sold out to the distribution network. New sets essentially replace old in the product catalog so from a retail perspective, they stock "Clix" in boxes that get restocked with whatever is the current set. It means that they are able to hit places like Target and Wal-Mart and the like to reach numbers that make pre-paints viable. Blind purchase also means that as long as the set as a whole doesn't fail, even if sales go up and down they can adjust for future runs. Cheap commons are still an enormous development cost that in other systems could easily tank the line, but because they're not the real product, but part of a set that is sold as the whole thing, they can fill boosters while consumers chase what they want from the set.
Without blind purchase, you still have to sell in sets if you want big box stores to carry it. Heroscape walked a very dangerous line in that regard, as it mixed unique hero packs with repeat purchase commons and relied on everyone wanting the heroes to keep them from clogging shelves. It often worked, but when it didn't, it was a huge threat to the line. FWIW, this is the same reason that stuff like the Marvel Legends figure have the "build a figure" parts. It keeps unpopular figures from the set from clogging shelves and tanking the line as a whole.
Thanks for the detailed answer and I agree that the blind/randomized purchase model does fix some of the issues of having certain SKUs available at all times which usually plagues toy companies with a wave release structure but I'd hope that after decades of using that technique that Hasbro would have figured out a workable fix for it. Additionally, Heroclix and D&D/Pathfinder minis do have non-randomized packs that are a very good analog to the old Heroscape release boosters and they seem to have success with those as well. Admittedly they're in all likelihood a minority of total sales compared with the random packs but they do continue to exist and presumably make a profit. None of the above though works for a big terrain filled "starter" set though as I don't believe Wizkids has something even remotely equivalent to that so I didn't include it in the discussion.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Hasbro has nothing to do with WizKids, which is owned by Neca/Topps and has no affiliation with Wizards of the Coast.
1478
Post by: warboss
 Platuan4th wrote:
Hasbro has nothing to do with WizKids, which is owned by Neca/Topps and has no affiliation with Wizards of the Coast.
Yeah, I know. I'm asking about comparisons between Hasbro's Heroscape and Wizkids products and why one is viable but the other isn't.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
warboss wrote: Platuan4th wrote: Hasbro has nothing to do with WizKids, which is owned by Neca/Topps and has no affiliation with Wizards of the Coast.
Yeah, I know. I'm asking about comparisons between Hasbro's Heroscape and Wizkids products and why one is viable but the other isn't.
Honestly? Known licenses and FOMO Chase figures. Heroclix whales will legitimately drive all over an entire state to buy up stock for the Chase variants. It's why I got out of Heroclix.
66741
Post by: ced1106
> Yeah, I know. I'm asking about comparisons between Hasbro's Heroscape and Wizkids products and why one is viable but the other isn't.
My own guess is that Hasbro has many more product lines than WizKids, so focuses on the product lines that are the "most profitable". Never mind that "least profitable" on the Hasbro books would still be profitable by hobby game standards. They were even ready to sell off D&D at one point, iirc, and bought WotC for Pokemon, not even Magic. Hasbro is also a publicly traded company, so is more beholden to stockholders than hobby gamers. With WizKids owned by NECA/Topps, what product lines WK chooses to support might be influenced by their owners, depending on how much meddling the owners would do.
AFAIK, For blind boxes, the commons cost less to produce (eg. cheaper paintjobs), so it's the buyers going after the rares who are supporting the model. "Force buying", as someone on this Reddit thread puts it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/52ydyg/how_are_prepainted_miniatures_made_why_does_it/
Random guess for fixed sets is that they're only releasing the most popular figures? Also, since WK and Pathfinder does prepaints anyway, it costs them less to put out a fixed set than were they to do it from the start, like HC would?
I think I mentioned it before, but if I hadn't, Krosmaster seems to have died, but it sold fixed prepaints. I think the sculpts, unlike many miniature sculpts, were designed to be stencil-painted possibly by factory (like many toys), rather than brush-painted by hand (like hobby game prepaints).
107281
Post by: LunarSol
ced1106 wrote:
My own guess is that Hasbro has many more product lines than WizKids, so focuses on the product lines that are the "most profitable". Never mind that "least profitable" on the Hasbro books would still be profitable by hobby game standards.
Very much this. There's a reason the HasLab campaign was $4 million or bust. It's not that they needed that much to make it. It's that they needed at least that much to bother making it.
|
|
