As a follow up to the thread about non-Chaos/xenos uprisings, it's my personal belief that there needs to be to an organized human rebellion against the Imperium of Mankind large enough to be its own faction that isn't the product of another Chaos or Genestealer cult. Before anyone says that it would be crushed immediately, remember that even in the best of times, it would take years, sometimes decades, to respond to a threat. With the Imperium as broken as it is now with the Great Rift, and with the Imperium's best forces focusing on the most existential of threats, I think that a large uprising has a much greater chance of gaining traction. This is especially true in the Imperium Nihilus, where Imperial central control is almost non-existent.

Here's my take on what a rebellion could look like. A group of systems in the Dark Imperium, close enough together so as to not need the warp to travel between them, take it upon themselves to liberate themselves from whatever Imperial forces are left on their worlds, and then decide to start their own crusade to liberate the galaxy from the Imperium's tyranny. They don't want to actually destroy the Imperium and depose the Emperor like Chaos does, but instead overturn what they see as a cruel and corrupt system that has perverted the Emperor's original vision. Maybe some of the rebellion's leaders got their hands on some ancient documents with information about the Imperial truth and the Webway Project. For the rebels, their ideal system would be one where the Emperor technically remains in charge, but where the day to day ruling of the Imperium would fall on an elected legislature and executive rather than just the High Lords. The High Lords would remain but have significantly less authority than they do currently.

When dealing with the problem of expanding in a region where warp travel is almost impossible, I had the idea that part of the rebellion's ideology is that technological innovation, including a limited adoption of alien technology, is actually a good thing as it could help humanity's standard of living and better allow the Imperium to defeat its enemies. This could lead to them adopting stuff like the Tau's space travel technology that only skims the warp, as well as some of the simpler weapons of the Tau and maybe Eldar. Expansion into Imperium Sanctus could be done through secret agents who cross the Nachmund Gauntlet and who spread the rebellion's message to semi-isolated worlds. By the time the Imperium responded to all of this, due to having to fight against threats like Leviathan and Abaddon, the rebellion could already be entrenched and difficult to root out. Things could be complicated further with Guilliman and his supporters torn about how much of the Imperium's military should be used to crush the rebellion when there are much more dangerous, immediate threats. Also, it's entirely possible that Guilliman and some members of his faction agreeing with a few of the rebellion's ideas, given his hatred of how corrupt and backward the Imperium has become.

What do you guys all think? I personally think that this could be a cool idea that could allow for there to be an anti-Imperium faction that isn't just the way they are because of daemons whispering their ear or alien parasites in their brain.

Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

Honestly with the whole "cut the imperium in half" act they were going for I was thinking that one direction they might be taking the lore is to have the Imperium fragment into two parts.

One part the traditional bit we know and love; the other part perhaps fragmenting into more warring factions or reliant on Imperial Guard with less call for Marines.


But my view was it was less of a system to promote another group of Imperial models, and more one that would allow for a weakening of AntiXenos elements. Thus allowing a few more "Tau" scale races to get their heads up and establish themselves.


So instead of another human imperial force; allowing for another fully alien force to help build diversity into the game.

We wont get this because a lot of 40k fandom is jerking yourself raw to the idea of space marines crushing and murdering "soft" governments and structures of the sort that historically end up beating the asses of or running technological circles around high control regimes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Honestly with the whole "cut the imperium in half" act they were going for I was thinking that one direction they might be taking the lore is to have the Imperium fragment into two parts.

One part the traditional bit we know and love; the other part perhaps fragmenting into more warring factions or reliant on Imperial Guard with less call for Marines.


But my view was it was less of a system to promote another group of Imperial models, and more one that would allow for a weakening of AntiXenos elements. Thus allowing a few more "Tau" scale races to get their heads up and establish themselves.


So instead of another human imperial force; allowing for another fully alien force to help build diversity into the game.

You could very much make the argument that Votann is designed at least in part to appeal to this kind of a person that wants a more 'sci-fi' non imperial but still human styled race.

chaos0xomega wrote:Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

Agreed, Nurgle just wants to spread his love.

the_scotsman wrote:We wont get this because a lot of 40k fandom is jerking yourself raw to the idea of space marines crushing and murdering "soft" governments and structures of the sort that historically end up beating the asses of or running technological circles around high control regimes.

Those same people complained about the T'au and Warhammer Kids and GW did them anyway. If GW want to do something, they will do it.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

Agreed, Nurgle just wants to spread his love.

the_scotsman wrote:We wont get this because a lot of 40k fandom is jerking yourself raw to the idea of space marines crushing and murdering "soft" governments and structures of the sort that historically end up beating the asses of or running technological circles around high control regimes.

Those same people complained about the T'au and Warhammer Kids and GW did them anyway. If GW want to do something, they will do it.

Well, yeah. Everyone talking about what GW should do with Warhammer who is someone who plays one or more of the games isn't GW's primary market. Highly encourage checking out some of the interviews on 'the painting phase' on youtube for some perspective if you haven't already. I include myself here.

For just one little tidbit to let you know how irrelevant your wants are: In the not too distant past GW identified that the largest share of their income came from 35-50 year old women.

So, moms. You, reader, with your 2000+ point model collection and your existing collection of paints and knowledge of hobby brands? You are not the primary Games Workshop market.

I don’t entirely disagree. But. The Imperium has Inquisitors for exactly this reason.

Not just sniffing out and squelching Chaos and Genestealer Cults, but also more mundane ‘our life sucks and we demand better’ type rebellions.

The latter just lack the organisational and esoteric natures of the former.

Yes, a given Sector could rise up. But to do so, there’s going to be warfare before they can spread from their planet. Which means overthrowing or corrupting the Governor. The latter of that means promising the Governor something more than they already have (absolute power, vast wealth, a life of abject luxury).

I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters fighting against tyranny and all that with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

You know, just how Imperial characters can convince themselves that the IoM isn't horrible and a narrative that is willing to follow the joke.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly with the whole "cut the imperium in half" act they were going for I was thinking that one direction they might be taking the lore is to have the Imperium fragment into two parts.

One part the traditional bit we know and love; the other part perhaps fragmenting into more warring factions or reliant on Imperial Guard with less call for Marines.


But my view was it was less of a system to promote another group of Imperial models, and more one that would allow for a weakening of AntiXenos elements. Thus allowing a few more "Tau" scale races to get their heads up and establish themselves.


So instead of another human imperial force; allowing for another fully alien force to help build diversity into the game.

That's what I would do, along with a split jn the Imperial Creed where Imperium Nihilus focuses on a more Sanguinius-focused version of the faith that actually values compassion etc whereas Imperium Sanctus remains the soul-crushing evil that there already is.

When it comes to The Imperium, consider very very few inhabitants leave their home world, let alone work station/assigned job/what have you.

And even when they do, they’re incredibly, beyond our comprehension, sheltered and indoctrinated. And most still won’t see anything in the wide galaxy to challenge that view, because they’re set about defending hearth and home.

 Tyran wrote:
I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters fighting against tyranny and all that with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

You know, just how Imperial characters can convince themselves that the IoM isn't horrible and a narrative that is willing to follow the joke.

Right, the problem is too many of the narratives, and too much of the fanbase, think that the Imperium not being horrible isn't a joke.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t entirely disagree. But. The Imperium has Inquisitors for exactly this reason.

Not just sniffing out and squelching Chaos and Genestealer Cults, but also more mundane ‘our life sucks and we demand better’ type rebellions.

The latter just lack the organisational and esoteric natures of the former.

Yes, a given Sector could rise up. But to do so, there’s going to be warfare before they can spread from their planet. Which means overthrowing or corrupting the Governor. The latter of that means promising the Governor something more than they already have (absolute power, vast wealth, a life of abject luxury).

The Inquisition can't be everywhere all at once. Also, in a region where Imperial authority has broken down, they would be a lot less effective in putting down rebellions. As for governors, again, this is why it would be an armed rebellion, to overthrow the old order.

And how exactly are those rebels going to protect themselves from Chaos' influence and corruption without the Imperium, its faith, its inquisition and its never ending workdays ? That's...the whole point of the setting.
That's diminishing the whole story and can't work in 40k, I understand the appeal, but 40k isn't this kind of setting

Hecaton wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters fighting against tyranny and all that with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

You know, just how Imperial characters can convince themselves that the IoM isn't horrible and a narrative that is willing to follow the joke.

Right, the problem is too many of the narratives, and too much of the fanbase, think that the Imperium not being horrible isn't a joke.

You can still have your own narrative. Narratives don't need to be consistent with each other.

I mean, look at Day of Ascension. It presents a Genestealer Cult as an heroic resistance group, the protagonist has a honest to Hive Mind hero journey and her faith on the "Many Handed Emperor" (aka the Great Devourer) while shaken is framed as a good thing that helps her overcome the blatantly oppressive and villainous Admech. It is an entire narrative build around "what if the Genestealer Hybrids were the good guys?" and commits to it.

Obviously it doesn't mean the Genestealer Cult are actually the good guys, but it is a superb example of how to frame an usually villainous portrayed faction.

 godardc wrote:
And how exactly are those rebels going to protect themselves from Chaos' influence and corruption without the Imperium, its faith, its inquisition and its never ending workdays ? That's...the whole point of the setting.
That's diminishing the whole story and can't work in 40k, I understand the appeal, but 40k isn't this kind of setting

Except it's been shown that much of the Imperium's behavior feeds Chaos as much as it hurts it. A faction dedicated to genuinely making things better for everyone and not committing atrocities every five minutes would be far more antithetical to Chaos than much of what the Imperium does. Also, this group does not necessarily have to ditch Emperor worship, which is a potent tool against Chaos, just make use of a version that isn't so reactionary and bloodthirsty.

I do like the idea above of a split Imperium with one side working to have a more idealistic, Sanguinius-style of rule and the other being ruled with the traditional style.

I like that idea as well.

How to fight Chaos without the Imperium? With aggression and adequate firepower, isn't this how other non-imperial factions deal with them?

I'm actually gonna go ahead and think this sort of rebel factions already exist in the setting, they are just too "miniscule" in scope to register in the Grim epicness of the Black Library, where there are only Memes..

I think an army like that would be a really cool project, but one that could be easily fit into one or more current armies. IG, or course, but also the non-MEQ parts of CSM, or even cults, votann, or admech.

There's an old joke about 40k, that if tournaments mimicked the lore, by far the most common matchup would be Orks on Orks, followed by IG on IG....

And in the 40k universe, such a faction would be corrupted quickly and fall from within. Either by agents of chaos, or by instability fomented by the Imperial Inquisition. It’s a fundamental part of the background that nobody is allowed nice things

Also, the freedom of the background is that anyone could make up such a force with their own plot armour as to why it doesn’t get scotched toot sweet. Pick a codex and model up some noblebright space warriors of awesomeness!


D’oh - ninja’d

 godardc wrote:
And how exactly are those rebels going to protect themselves from Chaos' influence and corruption without the Imperium, its faith, its inquisition and its never ending workdays ? That's...the whole point of the setting.
That's diminishing the whole story and can't work in 40k, I understand the appeal, but 40k isn't this kind of setting

Just by not being donkey-caves. The issue is that in the Imperium, everything sucks so bad that Chaos looks like a good alternative. That isn't the case for other regimes.

 Tyran wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

Right, too many of the narratives think that the Imperium not being horrible isn't a joke.

You can still have your own narrative. Narratives don't need to be consistent with each other.

I mean, look at Day of Ascension. It presents a Genestealer Cult as an heroic resistance group, the protagonist has a honest to Hive Mind hero journey and her faith on the "Many Handed Emperor" (aka the Great Devourer) while shaken is framed as a good thing that helps her

Obviously it doesn't mean the Genestealer Cult are actually the good guys, but it is a superb example of how to frame an usually villainous portrayed faction.

This idea about characters having actual agency or self interest is one of the best takes. The characters can have their own points of view, their own welfar, the welfare of their units and Allie’s they’ve met in the story, and they have to advance those. Those probably aren’t the same as whatever mission they’ve been given by their faction. Even Imperial characters are usually either colonial levies if they’re guard, or kidnapped kids marines. The rest of the faction doesn’t want the best for them, so it’s possible to write a story where what the character wants is glory for themselves, safety for their friends, whatever their personal goals are. In the case of Day of Ascension, that includes the character’s POV of supporting her cult.

It’s not a coincidence that the author of Day of Ascension is the BL author who is most successful outside of BL, setting aside Mr Starlord

The Badab war was basically the maelstrom wardens getting tired of the Imperium’s nonsense and seceding.

Huron didn’t fall to chaos until the end/after the war.

There will never be a good Rebel Alliance in 40K because 40K is a tragic setting where the good guys are bad and the bad guys are even worst.

Hecaton wrote:
Just by not being donkey-caves. The issue is that in the Imperium, everything sucks so bad that Chaos looks like a good alternative. That isn't the case for other regimes.

Chaos is far more subtle than that. For example, if your child was dying and the doctors couldn't do anything wouldn't you be tempted to accept a favor from Nurgle, even if it meant sacrificing yourself? Can you really say you'd be able to tell the exact line where "party and do some fun drugs" goes from harmless entertainment to accepting the temptations of Slaanesh?

Don't know about the rest of ya guys, but when a party reaches that point where they take out the knives, skull-fething apparatus and PVC laced tentacles, That's usually my cue for GTFO

It's a fundamental part of Warhammer 40'000 that every faction is depraved, and there is basically no sensible alternative in sight. The main rebel factions are Chaos and Genestealer Cults. It's a great setup together with the counter-productive tyranny of the Imperium. It's part of the comic tragedy, and the satire kicking on all sides.

But I agree. Non-Chaos and non-Xenos uprisings are a dime a dozen. It would be sweet to have them represented with rules and even models in some fashion, however minor. It would also give more internal beef for Inquisitors to hunt down on tabletop. Such rebels could work especially well if background and art played up their resentment and often cruel methods and ruthless leadership. Throw in mentions of many (temporarily?) successful rebellions ending in reigns of terror or bloody dictatorships of their own á la reality, and you're good to go. Grimdark.

In the meanwhile, playing Imperial Guard as local rebels is the closest we have.

The rebel alliance were such a bunch of intolerable dogooders, there is no place for that in 40K.

Don’t forget the wider Imperium is organised to severely limit the impact of such rebellion, regardless of the driving factor.

A single world or system declaring secession? Enjoy being blockaded, and you better hope you’ve your own Agriworld to feed your population because you’re not gonna be importing much of anything.

You also have a fleet designed to be little march for an Imperial Navy Battlegroup.

Guard Regiments don’t have their own fleet assets either, with transport being arranged by the Munitorum when moving forces around,

So any such rebellion is typically easily contained, even if eradicating it takes rather more time and effort.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though, for anyone interested? 2000AD ran a Dan Abnett and Colin MacNeil collaboration called “Insurrection”.

It’s about a frontier world where in order to help see off an alien invasion, the resident Judges granted full citizenship to Muties, Droids and Uplifts, who break away from Mega City One’s rule in the aftermath.

It has serious 40K stylings to it as one might expect given the creative pairing. So if you’re looking for narrative hooks, not to mention a damned fine slice of comic book? You could do worse than giving it a read

And it’s a pretty fair £9.99 for the digital edition

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
It's a fundamental part of Warhammer 40'000 that every faction is depraved, and there is basically no sensible alternative in sight. The main rebel factions are Chaos and Genestealer Cults. It's a great setup together with the counter-productive tyranny of the Imperium. It's part of the comic tragedy, and the satire kicking on all sides.

But I agree. Non-Chaos and non-Xenos uprisings are a dime a dozen. It would be sweet to have them represented with rules and even models in some fashion, however minor. It would also give more internal beef for Inquisitors to hunt down on tabletop. Such rebels could work especially well if background and art played up their resentment and often cruel methods and ruthless leadership. Throw in mentions of many (temporarily?) successful rebellions ending in reigns of terror or bloody dictatorships of their own á la reality, and you're good to go. Grimdark.

In the meanwhile, playing Imperial Guard as local rebels is the closest we have.

Imperial Guard as more militaristic rebels or where they have successfully infiltrated the PDF or any local Guard regiments.

Genestealer Cult armies can still work as "counts as" even for non-Genestealer Cult rebellions. The Neophytes are your rebellious underclass/miners. Others might be mutants, rogue psykers, demagogues. The kelermorph can be a local gunslinger hero.

Chaos cultists can represent any local religious cults or rogue psykers, even if not necessarily Chaos.


Successful rebellions find themselves in the awkward position then of having to deal with the same problems the Imperium did. What to do with rogue psykers? How to juggle all the varied demands of the population? The oppressed working class will want better living conditions, more or better rations etc... The wealthy will want to maintain their wealth or expand their wealth and power. The threat of Imperial retribution hangs over everything. The rebels find that when they are suddenly in charge, actually ruling turns out to be harder than rebelling in the first place.

If they are very lucky and everything succeeds, then they may be written off by the Imperium reclassifying their area as "wilderness space" to scrub the history of them ever succeeding in rebelling, and they may then just become another small pocket empire of their own.

Rick Priestley originally intended a wider variety of human societies spread across the galaxy but the company pivoted to "moar marines" and he scuttled those ideas.

If they continue to evolve the storyline, it would be interesting to see independent micro-empires of different humans pop up. Im not going to hold my breath, mind you, but it would be interesting.

It could even be lightly supported with an Independent Worlds Upgrade Pack with head swaps, icons, and transfer sheets or something. Or maybe Mundus Independicus for IP reasons. Heck, they could repurpose one of their GravBricks and call it the 42nd Millennium Falcon.

Either way, once you crack open the book, the universe is yours to play with.

Edit: typos

Yes, at this point I feel something like this is needed.

GW is unable to the subtlety of storytelling that is required to portray "no one is good" universe properly, so we usually end up as fascist, totalitarian imperium as "the good guys" in the narrative.

To avoid this we need honestly decent human faction for contrast, and scrappy underdog freedom fighter faction is perfect for that.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
What do you guys all think? I personally think that this could be a cool idea that could allow for there to be an anti-Imperium faction that isn't just the way they are because of daemons whispering their ear or alien parasites in their brain.

There is the risk that you diminish the 'grimdark' aspect of the setting as a whole - the idea that humanity is fighting a desperate and losing battle against impossible threats to survive at any cost, including their own humanity.

And then this new faction turns up and goes 'look, you can have your cake and eat it. It's not even that they would be wrong in many areas (i.e. the self serving nature of the admech) - but the Imperiums unwillingness and inability to move away from it's structure is part of the tragedy of it.

And by inability - consider one system that has, in isolation, overcome many of the Imperiums legacy issues. Right or wrong its changes would spread like a destructive cancer as pieces of a framework generations wide in terms of travel distance and supply lines fall into civil war.

Really it's the plot for a book, an inquisitor bringing ruin on paradise in full understanding that it is a better place, but that the Imperium would never survive the change.

Just write a good book about "Traitor" Guard and release a proper Codex and plastic boxes along with it. Don't make them crazy lunatics or fanatics, but more grounded forces. Guys that may do a prayer to their leech god once a day to save them from the agony that is life in the Imperium but when a tentacle grows out of their arm they're terrified and call for medical assistance.

The bigger issue is that the GW process is game then background.
You'd need to find a way in which a human rebel army would be different from the likes of Guard, Sisters, GSC, or Chaos which IMO wouldn't really be possible.

Not really, the rebel army could just be the IG with a different paint job.

Similar with how the Farsight Enclaves are just Tau Empire but red even thought they are canonically a different faction.

I agree but the point people seem to be making is that they don't want just a custom paint job with Imperial Guard rules.

And models.

Basically this is the issue GW has with 40K at its core. Because Marines dominated releases for so long with sub-factions and because most armies are pretty big beefy things that take a lot to update; it has kind of pushed 40K into quite a single mould.

Even though we've actually had quite a few new armies over the years (Necrons, Dark Eldar, Tau, Squats, Ad Mech) there feels like there's a touch of design stagnation that you don't tend to feel in Aos.

I suspect part of it is that GW's approach is that factions only get mentioned in the lore when they appear as models - at least in a big way. So whilst we know there are other Xenos around, we don't really get to learn much about them; see them in action nor really hear about them. Heck even subfactions of existing forces like Exodites are very rare to hear about and often only appear alongside major factions doing stuff (Exodites are often being saved by Craftworlders).

So we don't have a big legacy of fans of other factions and such. There isn't as much of a sense of a living universe with lots of diverse choices that GW cna pluck out. At least compared to the likes of Old World and AoS.



Of course there's a bonus in that it means most people have factions that do feature in the lore and are hyped up and such. But it still creates this sense of emptiness in creativity.




Hence the desire for more factions and why they oft end up being subfactions of existing main ones - eg a rebel group of Imperials; Dinosaur riding Spaceelves and soforth.

 Gert wrote:
I agree but the point people seem to be making is that they don't want just a custom paint job with Imperial Guard rules.

If one wanted to give such a faction district identity from IG, they could employ some xenos technology and blend it with the imperial stuff.

A while ago I did some concept art for mercenaries I called "Fringerunners" that operate in the galactic eastern fringe outside the jurisdiction of the Imperium.



"Fringerunners are mercenaries that hail from the galactic fringes outside the control of the Imperium. They freely traffic with the xenos, utilise forbidden technologies and spread heretical ideals, and thus are considered extremely dangerous by the Imperial authorities."

Right, but a design is one thing, distinct rules are another.

Ignoring the obvious "But Space Marines" for the moment, how would this faction play differently to say GSC or Guard?
There are already a fair whack of human (and sort of human) based factions that all play quite differently. Guard have the squishy troops backed up by tanks and artillery, GSC has hordes of dregs but infiltration tactics that allow units to close the gap much quicker, and Sisters have Power Armour and Bolters.

What would this faction do that other humans don't? Why should they be anything but a conversion or a paint job?

I don't believe they have to be anything but a conversion and paint job. Also I don't believe factions need to be whollly unique mechanic wise. (we have how many variations of melee Space Marines?)

But that may put me in a minority.

That would be my opinion as well. I didn't need Traitor Guard rules to play my army and for the longest time, I didn't have them because I didn't have any FW books.

8th rolled around and killed the R&H list but I just went back to using the Guard Codex because it did the same things anyway.
I also used Solar Auxilia rules before C&M was released for HH2.

The Codexes are just a set of rules. They shape us as hobbyists. But how we live with those rules is the true test of a hobbyist.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

No it's not. Chaos is literally evil.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

No it's not. Chaos is literally evil.

I don’t know what you mean. Surely when a cruiser is taken over and then starts perpetually broadcasting KILLFRENZY! On all available frequencies it just means it just needs a friendly hug.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

No it's not. Chaos is literally evil.

Chaos is a reflection of the emotions of souled beings in 40k.

Humans suck, and are the most or second-most numerous psychic race (Orks are number one or two, but they're so single-minded that they get Gork and Mork instead of Chaos writ-large). So, Chaos sucks too.
Eldar partied too hard and were terrible, making Slaanesh.
Tau barely have souls, so they barely impact Chaos.
Necrons don't have souls.

 Crimson wrote:
Yes, at this point I feel something like this is needed.

GW is unable to the subtlety of storytelling that is required to portray "no one is good" universe properly, so we usually end up as fascist, totalitarian imperium as "the good guys" in the narrative.

To avoid this we need honestly decent human faction for contrast, and scrappy underdog freedom fighter faction is perfect for that.

We already have the Tau.

Calling the Imperium "fascist" is reductive.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Chaos is a reflection of the emotions of souled beings in 40k.

Chaos has goals, plans, desires and takes conscious actions. They may draw power from the emotions that feed into the Warp, but to argue that they aren't really evil shows a total ignorance of the setting.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Calling the Imperium "fascist" is reductive.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Chaos is a reflection of the emotions of souled beings in 40k.

Chaos has goals, plans, desires and takes conscious actions. They may draw power from the emotions that feed into the Warp, but to argue that they aren't really evil shows a total ignorance of the setting.

They are evil. But they’re evil because everyone else is.

If humanity, the Eldar, and all other soulful races of 40k were noble do-gooders, the Warp would be an awesome place.
But it isn’t, because they aren’t

Hecaton wrote:
We already have the Tau.

Tau are not good guys, they're the generic scifi Evil Empire from any other setting.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
We already have the Tau.

Tau are not good guys, they're the generic scifi Evil Empire from any other setting.

They're about as "good" as makes sense in the setting.

Hecaton wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
We already have the Tau.

Tau are not good guys, they're the generic scifi Evil Empire from any other setting.

They're about as "good" as makes sense in the setting.

I don't think "we're pragmatic enough to understand that enslaving you provides more value to our empire than spending resources to kill you" really counts as good. Slightly less evil, maybe, but still evil.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


I don't think "we're pragmatic enough to understand that enslaving you provides more value to our empire than spending resources to kill you" really counts as good. Slightly less evil, maybe, but still evil.

It's less evil than the Imperium, which is "we will go against expedience to destroy you because we hate you." The Imperium is compelled to do evil, regardless of its utility.

There's a lot of rebel alliances in 40K from what I can remember some which still exist and some which don't. Not all of these are offically called rebel alliance but these include a) Chaos factions b) renegade space marine factions c) Inter-rex d) Craft world's with differing view points. These have for the most part already been posted by the posters before me.

I think the best e.g. that I can think off is the Necrontyr and the Blood angels teaming up to deal with the Tyrranids in the lore at one point. (Two forces which imo do not normally team up do so to combat a greater threat which happens a lot)

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
With the Imperium as broken as it is now with the Great Rift, and with the Imperium's best forces focusing on the most existential of threats, I think that a large uprising has a much greater chance of gaining traction. This is especially true in the Imperium Nihilus, where Imperial central control is almost non-existent.

I fully agree that the idea of the anti-Imperial uprising is an underexplored and marginalised one within the wider 40K setting and that it should get more attention. The Imperium Nihilus is pretty much custom-designed (and I have to assume that this was deliberate on GW's part) to become an environment where Imperial control breaks down and human societies are forced to consider ways of existence which don't begin and end with 'Do Everything Terra Says'.

But I feel like it shouldn't so much a coherent faction as a concept. Should there be a rebel alliance uprising over on the far side of the rift? No, not 'a' rebel alliance, there should be dozens or hundreds of them, all trying to elbow their way into a position of survival, stability and power in the ongoing bar-room brawl that is Imperium Nihilus. They will be fighting each other as much as the Imperium, because this is still the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, and there is still only war, and the realities of power and greed and the turbulence of a political vacuum still apply. Some of them will be crushed by an Imperial response or be subverted by the whisperings of Chaos or be beaten down by xenos predators or collapse under the weight of their own internal struggles or the inability to organise. Some will grow and make diplomatic alliances and absorb their weaker neighbours and thrive despite the odds. Natural selection will take it's course.

Some 20 years ago I made an anti-Imperial rebel army. It mostly involved filing away the Imperial eagles on my Guard army (they were metal, so the filing was a pain) and making up anti-Imperial slogans to call out during games. For a large number of of rebellions, they're going to look much like that - without any unique techbase to produce distinct weaponry and equipment, they'll be reliant on defectors bringing Imperial kit over. In a lot of cases you're going to look at a rebel alliance army and see the same lasguns and heavy bolters and Leman Russes in their ranks that the loyalists have, so at that point the 'rebel alliance' army list already exists, it's the Astra Militarum army list. Or if you want a more guerrilla uprising theme, it's the Genestealer Cult army list (with the xenos hybrid elements proxied in as drugged up manual labourers, rad-waste mutants, reprogrammed servitors, etc). Or perhaps with the AdMech unable to enforce their will, scientific innovation is back on the table and you can go for a higher tech approach and use the Votann or Tau rules.

The way to do this is not to wait for someone in Nottingham to write and release it, but to do it ourselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
There will never be a good Rebel Alliance in 40K because 40K is a tragic setting where the good guys are bad and the bad guys are even worst.

I don't get the impression that the op was -necessarily- talking about a "good guys" human faction, they can reject the Imperium whilst still being terrible people. Sure, rebel alliance and all but it's going to be a grimdark rebel alliance.

I mean yeah, if someone started talking unironically about how they were going to introduce a space utopia with Democracy Marines I'd roll my eyes pretty hard, but that's not what is being discussed (....is it?).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So any such rebellion is typically easily contained, even if eradicating it takes rather more time and effort.

Typically, yes.

But in Imperium Nihilus the idea seems to be that GW have set up a semi-galaxy worth of space where the Imperium can't just run around leisurely chainsawing down any independent minded malcontent and laughing any more, because literally everything is upside down and broken and on fire, and so you end up with a power vacuum where the seeds of secessionism can start to take root and grow (and where maybe that's the only chance a particular human world or system or subsector has to survive, as the Imperial network they previously relied upon has ceased to exist).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:
There is the risk that you diminish the 'grimdark' aspect of the setting as a whole - the idea that humanity is fighting a desperate and losing battle against impossible threats to survive at any cost, including their own humanity.

And then this new faction turns up and goes 'look, you can have your cake and eat it. It's not even that they would be wrong in many areas (i.e. the self serving nature of the admech) - but the Imperiums unwillingness and inability to move away from it's structure is part of the tragedy of it.

I feel like pointing at the Imperial approach and saying 'you've been doing it all wrong for ten thousand years and here's the proof, you god damn idiots' preserves a healthy dose of grimdark. It's not as though the Imperium is going to reform or collapse as a result, so at least half the galaxy is going to still be trapped in the machine that is actively making everything worse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
The bigger issue is that the GW process is game then background.
You'd need to find a way in which a human rebel army would be different from the likes of Guard, Sisters, GSC, or Chaos which IMO wouldn't really be possible.

Yeah, for this and other reasons, barring some -very- major changes in Nottingham you're aren't going to get Codex: Post-Imperial Secessionists any time remotely soon.

It would be a fun thing to see a grassroots movement in the 40k community where a bunch of people get inspired by the idea, and start converting and painting and making artwork and writing backstories. But that's as much as you can realistically expect.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

No it's not. Chaos is literally evil.

From my point of view, the Imperium is evil.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

No it's not. Chaos is literally evil.

From my point of view, the Imperium is evil.

Why not both?

Eumerin wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

No it's not. Chaos is literally evil.

From my point of view, the Imperium is evil.

Why not both?

Given that the Imperium's methods have been actively driving their population into the arms of Chaos worship for the last ten millennia, whilst actively stamping down on any alternative way of existing, you can absolutely declare 'a plague on both your houses' and take the view that the Imperium and Chaos are just two sides of the same evil coin .

Hell, one of the first Dragon magazines I bought as a kid had an article that talked about doing the rebel alliance thing with the Rogue Trader setting.

But when is mainline GW going to find time in its packed release schedule to cater to some brand-divergent utopian splinter group? Do you really want to end up with a kill team box (estimated time to "Temporarily sold out online" ) and some Forgeworld resin?

It's important to remember that the Rebel Alliance's full name was The Alliance to Restore the Republic.

The people who fought the Empire have memories of a time when worlds were free from the grasp of tyranny and people could speak their minds.

40k doesn't have that. There is no better predecessor to the Imperium.

 Gert wrote:
It's important to remember that the Rebel Alliance's full name was The Alliance to Restore the Republic.

The people who fought the Empire have memories of a time when worlds were free from the grasp of tyranny and people could speak their minds.

40k doesn't have that. There is no better predecessor to the Imperium.

Maybe not galaxy wide, but there are individual systems and small networks that get bulldozered back into the Imperium that arguably provide a better individual level of experience.

 Gert wrote:
It's important to remember that the Rebel Alliance's full name was The Alliance to Restore the Republic.

The people who fought the Empire have memories of a time when worlds were free from the grasp of tyranny and people could speak their minds.

40k doesn't have that. There is no better predecessor to the Imperium.

Heck when you consider the timeline of Starwars and all that the Prequels present, it really is also only a stone's-throw since the Republic was a thing. Meanwhile the Imperium wasn't so much a huge uprising as it was a defensive move that slid more and more into the Emperor's style of control. The whole "he dissolved the senate" part at the start of A New Hope is almost a throw away moment to explain how threatening the Deathstar is going to be, yet with the Prequel understanding you realise that its actually a massive thing that shifts the full control to the Emperor alone

 Gert wrote:

The people who fought the Empire have memories of a time when worlds were free from the grasp of tyranny and people could speak their mind.

Unless you're a slave, which the Republic was basically fine with...

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The people who fought the Empire have memories of a time when worlds were free from the grasp of tyranny and people could speak their mind.

Unless you're a slave, which the Republic was basically fine with...

Tatooine wasn't part of the Republic, it was owned by the Hutts. The Empire actually expanded into it, even though the Hutts remained very powerful

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe not galaxy wide, but there are individual systems and small networks that get bulldozered back into the Imperium that arguably provide a better individual level of experience.

Are there though? At the time of the Great Crusade maybe but by M41 separatist movements aren't formed because populations want to install a democratic system. Even the Nova Terra Interregnum was just about the Ur-Council having more power for themselves rather than wanting to improve the lives of their people.

 Overread wrote:
Heck when you consider the timeline of Starwars and all that the Prequels present, it really is also only a stone's-throw since the Republic was a thing. Meanwhile the Imperium wasn't so much a huge uprising as it was a defensive move that slid more and more into the Emperor's style of control. The whole "he dissolved the senate" part at the start of A New Hope is almost a throw away moment to explain how threatening the Deathstar is going to be, yet with the Prequel understanding you realise that its actually a massive thing that shifts the full control to the Emperor alone

Exactly, the Emperor had a little over thirty years to establish his place as ruler of the galaxy and he couldn't manage his crowning event without rebel groups immediately forming against him.
Those who opposed the Emperor from a point of political freedom rather than being Chaos or Xenos are long gone by M41.

 Gert wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe not galaxy wide, but there are individual systems and small networks that get bulldozered back into the Imperium that arguably provide a better individual level of experience.

Are there though? At the time of the Great Crusade maybe but by M41 separatist movements aren't formed because populations want to install a democratic system. Even the Nova Terra Interregnum was just about the Ur-Council having more power for themselves rather than wanting to improve the lives of their people.

 Overread wrote:
Heck when you consider the timeline of Starwars and all that the Prequels present, it really is also only a stone's-throw since the Republic was a thing. Meanwhile the Imperium wasn't so much a huge uprising as it was a defensive move that slid more and more into the Emperor's style of control. The whole "he dissolved the senate" part at the start of A New Hope is almost a throw away moment to explain how threatening the Deathstar is going to be, yet with the Prequel understanding you realise that its actually a massive thing that shifts the full control to the Emperor alone

Exactly, the Emperor had a little over thirty years to establish his place as ruler of the galaxy and he couldn't manage his crowning event without rebel groups immediately forming against him.
Those who opposed the Emperor from a point of political freedom rather than being Chaos or Xenos are long gone by M41.

I actually think it would have been really neat to have films 7-8-9 be a lot sooner after the events of Return of the Jedi just so we could potentially see the political rebuilding of the Republic with all the in-fighting and arguments and the fact that when the Emperor died there were likely a lot of different rebel groups and systems that suddenly rose up overnight. Basically the full turmoil of trying to rebuild a galactic republic.

I may have skipped it in the thread, but wasn't there some kind of it with the Severan Dominate? I can't remember the whole lore around this for the life of me, but IIRC it was more or less along those lines.

Although it still was pretty much a petty head of sector deciding at the drop of a hat that zog it, I'm better off on my own and didn't turn quite as good as expected.

I'll check it on the internet.

Anyway I don't see human secessionists threatened by Chaos in the first place, I'm not sure they'd be at much more risk than the imperium and would just lack the sufficient ressources to crush a snowballing chaos cult. And that'd be their problem. To survive as fleshy humans in such a galaxy would be hard, most other big races from the setting would probably be able to wipe them out quickly and the imperium would laugh condescendingly.

But in the end while I can't imagine a whole race or faction, like official one, there's nothing stopping us from imagining our secessionist humans more or less successful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Severan_Dominate

It mentions the threat of rogue psyker that might be quite bad, I don't know how we can assess the chances they'd understood clearly the risk they represent and deal with them. Anyway there you go.

From what I can find the Dominate is no better than the Imperium it split from.
It maintains a version of the Imperial Cult to enhance the power of its ruler and has its own political enforcers to keep the people in line.
It's still a totalitarian state led by a despot who manipulated his way into power.

 Gert wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Maybe not galaxy wide, but there are individual systems and small networks that get bulldozered back into the Imperium that arguably provide a better individual level of experience.

Are there though? At the time of the Great Crusade maybe but by M41 separatist movements aren't formed because populations want to install a democratic system. Even the Nova Terra Interregnum was just about the Ur-Council having more power for themselves rather than wanting to improve the lives of their people.

It's fair to say that after ten millennia of totalitarianism and societal brutalisation you're not going to get popular uprisings seeking liberal representative government, a Nihilus revolt is more likely to start out as a matter of purely short term survival ("they're stripping our PDF bare, who will defend us from the next Drukhari slave raid?" or "our population is already starving and they've upped the grain tithe demands again!") rather than ideological differences. Once they've burned that bridge though, at some point there's going to be a moment where the ringleaders look around and say "okay, we said no to Terra so I guess we're all traitors ... what do we do now?", but this still being 40k their answer is unlikely to be "hold free and fair democratic elections".

Though, one of the fun things about the idea of depicting multiple rebellions stemming from the breakdown of Imperial control, rather than a single specific rebellion as a distinct faction, is that it sidesteps disagreements over "what does the rebel alliance think/do/look like?". If everyone can build their own to represent a different group within a wave of seccessions, there's no "wrong" answer.

 Gert wrote:
From what I can find the Dominate is no better than the Imperium it split from.
It maintains a version of the Imperial Cult to enhance the power of its ruler and has its own political enforcers to keep the people in line.
It's still a totalitarian state led by a despot who manipulated his way into power.

Yeah kind of, I agree.

It'd take it more as an example of decently sized human faction going on its own with some sort of success.

The thing is because it's contained entirely within one RPG sourcebook, it will never get expanded upon beyond "it exists at the given timeframe of the setting of this book", which is 779.M41.
There's no real way to know if it was actually successful but the book hinted pretty heavily that it wasn't going to last.

Can't know as of now yeah, I kind of sit on the fence whether I'd like an end to be written for it or if I'm satisfied with the fact it's stalled as of now. Doubt GW will ever care to further it anyway.

But that's still an instance of a relatively sizable secession, along with badad, but badad had space marines in good number so it not quite the same kettle of fish.

Anyway, I just thought about it and thought it could be interesting to discuss it a little in this thread.

 Crimson wrote:

 Gert wrote:
I agree but the point people seem to be making is that they don't want just a custom paint job with Imperial Guard rules.

If one wanted to give such a faction district identity from IG, they could employ some xenos technology and blend it with the imperial stuff.

A while ago I did some concept art for mercenaries I called "Fringerunners" that operate in the galactic eastern fringe outside the jurisdiction of the Imperium.



"Fringerunners are mercenaries that hail from the galactic fringes outside the control of the Imperium. They freely traffic with the xenos, utilise forbidden technologies and spread heretical ideals, and thus are considered extremely dangerous by the Imperial authorities."

These models would look good on a Stargrave table.

IMO chaos aren’t evil and they aren’t a rebel alliance. Choas is just just chaotic. Within chaos there are good, evil and neutral all but with all things in 40K it’s a matter of perspective.

The chaos gods just want more chaos, Khorne wants skulls which seems evil to us but not to members of a blood cult. And nurgle just exists because of entropy, can’t blame pappa for that.

Abbadon wants to rebuild the empire and hates the emperor and Horus equally and is t really a fan of the chaotic powers.

Fabius wants to complete the emperors work by replacing Homo sapiens with Homo Novus in the belief that they can truly create a human dominated galaxy. But if he’s got to make cloak out of your skin to do I then that’s what he’s gonna do!

The empire is just on rinse and repeat of sacrificing billions to maintain an empire that is falling apart at the seams and treats those willing to make a sacrifice with less than contempt.

But they all think they are morally correct

No the setting does not need and should not have that for several reasons.

First from a gameplay perspective it’s very likely this army would play like the guard, squats, or Tau. If it’s within the imperium it will absolutely mirror the imperial guard since that material will be the most available. A quick conversion project quickly turns a guard army into a rebel force. If you want more advanced technology for your open minded rebels then the Tau or squats are a good template. For the uprising feel used genestealer cults either without the more Tyranid units or convert them to abhumans and mutants rising against their oppressor. Frankly any of these armies can be converted to that ascetic. If the game adds more it should be a new Xeno faction or expanding the Tau alliance beyond just the kroot and vespids.

From a lore perspective I don’t think that idea really works in the setting. It’s not an issue of ideology either or how brutal the universe. The problem lies in the Imperial Navy. The Imperial Navy is essentially a direct rip from 18th and early 19th century European navies. Most notably though this means that the ships are run by the officer corps who are brought up in deep tradition and tend to be from wealthier parts of society. It’s telling that very few revolutions or revolts get started by navies until the 20th century. These fleets are stationed away from their home systems as well lessening the chances of sympathy for a revolt. The lack of naval support will isolate any rebellion to a planet that can either be ignored or felt with later. If they somehow got the local battlefleet on board they will still struggle unless they somehow seized a shipyard. Such a system is unlikely to be left lightly defended or left to its own devices.

Even if they have the navy to hold and expand, the second issue becomes resources. The imperium is not setup for independent planets. Production worlds require raw materials form outlying planets and sectors. Hives depend on food brought from the outside worlds as well. Success would require near simultaneous and decisive revolts that seize all the required assets with minimal damage.

The feudal nature of the Imperium makes revolt from within nearly impossible. Success at the planetary level may work but the immediate isolations poses a difficulty. The rebellion will also be against the basically universal human religion. Furthermore there is nothing for these rebels to restore. The imperium is 10000 years old. Any pre imperium tradition might as well be made up for most. Rallying mass support without a unified idea of what comes next would be difficult.

Frankly I don’t think you need a “good” faction. Just because some idiots unironically lionize the imperium, doesn’t mean we need to undercut the entire narrative.

Well okay, all of those reasons apply to the Imperium at it's height, but in an environment like Imperium Nihilus they start to fall apart.

- The Imperial navy can't crush a thousand rebellions and chaos warbands and Xenos incursions all at once, particularly when entire branches of it's own logistic support network have functionally ceased to exist. It's going to have to pick and choose what it responds to and what it allows to continue. In many cases (because the Imperium is not a logical rational organisation) it's going to choose badly and make things worse rather than better by squandering resources on lost causes or ignoring something that later turns out to be critical.

- All the issues of resources you bring up, whilst true, apply just as much to loyalist worlds in Nihilus as potential seccessionists, if not more so, because loyalists are still bound into the system that is failure cascading around them. If your hive is no longer getting supplies from the usual agriworld, and the Imperial authorities are too preoccupied with a trillion other things that are currently on fire to solve that issue, you either sit there peacefully like a good little subject until you and everyone else starves to death, or you take matters into your own hands. And if that means some administration official a zillion light years away has to get out his red ink and stamp your file then so what?

- You don't need a coherent and fully formed competing ideology to start a revolt against the status quo. Many revolts don't start with anything of the sort beyond "the established authority is failing us" and in an environment like Nihilus that's going to be pretty self evident to all but the most devoted Imperial cultist.

- As I said earlier, a secessionist movement against Imperial control doesn't have to be "good guys". They can find a vast range of new and innovative ways to be just as utterly awful as the regime they're trying to supplant.

The part of your post I agree on is that we've got very little chance of seeing this as an official codex faction any time soon, and that there are existing army list templates we can use to bring the secessionist concept to the tabletop using counts-as principles (my ongoing 40k army project is exactly that). But GW clearly wrote the Great Rift/Nihilus setting into the timeline for a reason so they must have some reason for explicitly cooling off Imperial control over half of the galaxy. Asking how the humans of Nihilus respond to that change is an interesting question and it's pretty obvious that one of the potential answers to it would be that some of them go it alone.

The Great Rift exists because 40k had been at 1 second to midnight for like 20 years and it was getting beyond tedious. There are only so many big bad things to introduce before something new needs to happen.
Adding the Rift gave sufficient narrative reasoning for certain things to happen such as Custodes getting back in on the action because the Imperium is desperate or bringing Squats back as the Leagues of Votann who have been pushed out of their holdings at the Galactic Core which was torn apart by the Rift.
Without that, it would just be "Oh yeah no they were here all along but nobody saw them" which is trash.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
No the setting does not need and should not have that for several reasons.

First from a gameplay perspective it’s very likely this army would play like the guard, squats, or Tau. If it’s within the imperium it will absolutely mirror the imperial guard since that material will be the most available. A quick conversion project quickly turns a guard army into a rebel force. If you want more advanced technology for your open minded rebels then the Tau or squats are a good template. For the uprising feel used genestealer cults either without the more Tyranid units or convert them to abhumans and mutants rising against their oppressor. Frankly any of these armies can be converted to that ascetic. If the game adds more it should be a new Xeno faction or expanding the Tau alliance beyond just the kroot and vespids.

From a lore perspective I don’t think that idea really works in the setting. It’s not an issue of ideology either or how brutal the universe. The problem lies in the Imperial Navy. The Imperial Navy is essentially a direct rip from 18th and early 19th century European navies. Most notably though this means that the ships are run by the officer corps who are brought up in deep tradition and tend to be from wealthier parts of society. It’s telling that very few revolutions or revolts get started by navies until the 20th century. These fleets are stationed away from their home systems as well lessening the chances of sympathy for a revolt. The lack of naval support will isolate any rebellion to a planet that can either be ignored or felt with later. If they somehow got the local battlefleet on board they will still struggle unless they somehow seized a shipyard. Such a system is unlikely to be left lightly defended or left to its own devices.

Even if they have the navy to hold and expand, the second issue becomes resources. The imperium is not setup for independent planets. Production worlds require raw materials form outlying planets and sectors. Hives depend on food brought from the outside worlds as well. Success would require near simultaneous and decisive revolts that seize all the required assets with minimal damage.

The feudal nature of the Imperium makes revolt from within nearly impossible. Success at the planetary level may work but the immediate isolations poses a difficulty. The rebellion will also be against the basically universal human religion. Furthermore there is nothing for these rebels to restore. The imperium is 10000 years old. Any pre imperium tradition might as well be made up for most. Rallying mass support without a unified idea of what comes next would be difficult.

Frankly I don’t think you need a “good” faction. Just because some idiots unironically lionize the imperium, doesn’t mean we need to undercut the entire narrative.

I can certainly see many rebellions in Imperium Nihilus, and not necessarily in the sense of being directly "Down with the Imperium" though I'm sure there would be many of those. There would be many systems, sub-sectors, or whole sectors cut off by the Rift and warp storms from the wider Imperium. Supply chains would have been disrupted. Planets dependent on food or other imports for survival would either starve...or would have to take matters into their own hands which may include getting the necessary goods or services from another world at gunpoint.

While the Imperial Navy in theory is independent of any one world, their officers are often drawn from the nobility of certain worlds, and their postings to a ship or sector may be effectively lifelong. They may start to develop local loyalties and again like the planets themselves, may seek to take matters into their own hands once they are cut off from the wider Imperium.

While some may indeed try to carve out their own pocket empires, I could see some rebellions or secessions using the excuse of "restoring law and order" to the local area in the name of the Imperium, awaiting the day when the Imperium returns. They might even believe it. Then I could see such autonomous regions getting into clashes with each other, as they all claim to represent the Imperium. Sector A demands resources from Sector B in the name of the Imperium. Sector B refuses and rejects Sector A's authority to demand such things. Sector A claims Sector B is secessionist and refusing to aid the Imperium. Sector B accuses Sector A of damaging Imperial interests by demanding ruinous additional tithes that would cause economic dislocation or starvation. Both sectors and their associated fleets go to war, each claiming to be acting in the interests of the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Mechanicus of both sectors may both either stay neutral or side with their local interests because victory would mean more resources for them.

Behind the scenes, the Inquisition's factions may also be at each other's throats. The Recongregator faction would be inspiring revolts in order to sweep away what they see as the old rotten edifice of bureaucracy in order to rebuild and reform. The Amalatheans want to preserve it. The Istvaanians may support both sides, since a good intense conflict will strengthen the victor whoever it may be and thus the Imperium and humanity as a whole.

The Ecclesiarchy can have its own actual heresies boil over such as the Temple of the Saviour Emperor coming out of the woodwork and saying "See! We told you so all along that faith is the most important thing and the Imperium must be ruled by faith! No more separation of Ecclesiarchy and Administratum!". With warp phenomena, madness, and daemons all over the place post-Rift opening, they may even be right.

There is lots of potential story potential in such human vs human conflict where neither side can be easily dehumanized and dismissed as dupes of Chaos or aliens.

Gameplay-wise I agree though that most of secessionist rebellions could already be represented using some existing variety of army such as the Imperial Guard or Genestealer Cults.

Imperium Nihilus is kind of an interesting one.

Thinking about it, it can’t be all that different from the worlds rediscovered during the Great Crusade.

By skill or luck some worlds and systems might’ve Carried On Regardless. And as such they might well question whether they really want to rejoin the Imperium proper. Others might see a Crusade Fleet and know only relief that they’re no longer alone.

There is drama, intrigue and background revelations to be found there.

For instance, if a given Forgeworld considered itself truly alone? Maybe it started dabbling in Things Normally Frowned Upon, because it’s not as simple as orthodox and heretek in outlook and approach.

One world so isolated may have taken the risks and started producing Automata which may or may not be AI. Provided said AI hasn’t rebelled? That’s a decent defence force.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imperium Nihilus is kind of an interesting one.

Thinking about it, it can’t be all that different from the worlds rediscovered during the Great Crusade.

By skill or luck some worlds and systems might’ve Carried On Regardless. And as such they might well question whether they really want to rejoin the Imperium proper. Others might see a Crusade Fleet and know only relief that they’re no longer alone.

There is drama, intrigue and background revelations to be found there.

For instance, if a given Forgeworld considered itself truly alone? Maybe it started dabbling in Things Normally Frowned Upon, because it’s not as simple as orthodox and heretek in outlook and approach.

One world so isolated may have taken the risks and started producing Automata which may or may not be AI. Provided said AI hasn’t rebelled? That’s a decent defence force.

I think the main difference is that the great rift has allowed forces from warp space to take more ground-so there should be more planets occupied by demon overlords, cults and the like. Where as during the crusade choas was a bit more low key

Systems bordering the rift itself - on both sides - are likely to be getting saturated with chaotic energy and become more susceptable to daemonic activity, warp cults, etc, just like the land on the banks of a river is likely to become waterlogged.

Deeper into Nihilus and further away from the rift that effect is lessened, but cutting off that half of the galaxy from Terra created a power vacuum since the full resources of the Imperium's military can't just trivially sledgehammer down on anyone stepping out of line any more. That works to the benefit of Chaos followers too, but it also gives breathing space to develop and grow for xenos races, genestealer cults and tau diplomatic overtures, and (the part that we're taking about here) anti-imperial rebellions.

The Baddab Wars where such a rebel alliance.

That the leader fell to chaos several years later is just a bi product.

One could argue the leagues of Votan is a rebel alliance.

 Niiai wrote:
One could argue the leagues of Votan is a rebel alliance.

How?

A human and a cohesive force. They do offer a way beyond the Imperial Way.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A human and a cohesive force. They do offer a way beyond the Imperial Way.

Not to outsiders though, even after being forced out of the Galactic Core from the Great Rift, they're very insular and tight lipped to those not seen as Kin even when working as mercenaries. The fact they're all created via gene skeins and their kindreds are batches of clones made at the same time means the rest of humanity wouldn't be able to intermingle them and would likely form a second-class citizen at best if they were somehow allowed to live as protectorates for the Votann. So you basically have to born as Kin from the Ancestor Cores or you're gak out of luck.

Also, Votann can't really be seen as a rebel alliance because they have nothing they want to restore or rebel against, they were never part of the Imperium, were an offshoot from the DAoT and that human confederation died a long time ago after Old Night and they clearly have very little knowledge of that time to actually want to bring humanity back on that level. With how they're willing to commit planetary destruction with people on it to gain resources, regardless of whose still there on the surface, you can't see them as "good" either. I don't see them as a viable alternative for the teeming masses of humanity when they're basically an exclusive in-club that's pretty isolationist and effectively is a master race away from humanity on a larger scale and independence than space marines.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
A human and a cohesive force. They do offer a way beyond the Imperial Way.

They're not rebels though. At all. They're a full civilisation.

 Gert wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
One could argue the leagues of Votan is a rebel alliance.

How?

At one point they where standar human no? All of that was on board. I don't know weather it is before or after the creation of the imperium, I am not all up on the timeline. But now they are not clasified as humans, but that is just how the imperium have ruled it. They could easaly be clasified as human. And they are a huge network of induviduals who hide how strongly connected and organised they are from the imperium and other races. Essentially free people declearing their independence from the imperium and thriwing.

I am sure others have tryed to do the same, but has not gained enough of indepence to survive and thriwe as well as the Votan has. And certanly not to the same scale they deserve their own faction in a galaxy spanding setting like 40K. The votan er fething rebels man.

The Leagues are believed to be the descendants of the Men of Stone, a species created by humanity during the Golden Age and used as a clone labour force.
The race predates the Imperium by thousands of years.
There were holds that had allied with the Imperium but the wider Leagues aren't affiliated beyond ancient history with humanity as a race, rather than the Imperium as an entity.

 Niiai wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
One could argue the leagues of Votan is a rebel alliance.

How?

At one point they where standar human no? All of that was on board. I don't know weather it is before or after the creation of the imperium, I am not all up on the timeline. But now they are not clasified as humans, but that is just how the imperium have ruled it. They could easaly be clasified as human. And they are a huge network of induviduals who hide how strongly connected and organised they are from the imperium and other races. Essentially free people declearing their independence from the imperium and thriwing.

I am sure others have tryed to do the same, but has not gained enough of indepence to survive and thriwe as well as the Votan has. And certanly not to the same scale they deserve their own faction in a galaxy spanding setting like 40K. The votan er fething rebels man.

Buddy, I think you need to read up on Votann lore more clearly because like Gert and I have said so far, but they are a completely separate independent confederation that can't really be called human except in the loosest sense of ancestry and have never been under the rule of the Imperium. Can't be "fething" rebels if there's nothing to rebel against.

It might help to think of the Kin as Americans are to Britons or other Europeans

Yes, many can trace their lineage back to the British Isles (or indeed other European countries), but the USA is now a culture and society in its own right.

I don't think there's any actual real-world comparison that works because the Leagues aren't Human, they're Kin.
They look like stockier slightly smaller Humans but they aren't, even if some Cloneskein DNA hold enough similarities to be considered Abhuman.
It's not just a cultural difference but a genetic one.
Throw in the fact that the Leagues pre-date the Imperium and the American-European analogy doesn't really work.

 Gert wrote:
The Leagues are believed to be the descendants of the Men of Stone, a species created by humanity during the Golden Age and used as a clone labour force.
The race predates the Imperium by thousands of years.
There were holds that had allied with the Imperium but the wider Leagues aren't affiliated beyond ancient history with humanity as a race, rather than the Imperium as an entity.

Where did this little nugget about them being the descendants of the men of stone come from?

The men of stone made the men of iron which makes sense with the LOV AI’s but wasn’t the war between the men of stone and men of iron. Not the men of gold which I assume in this scenario must be humans?

It’s an implication from their background, rather than something outright confirmed.

Also these "Men of X" are more like shadowy contradictory mythical references rather than history, so these categories may not necessarily refer to completely separate races or species. Nor did they have to be homogenous.

One interpretation for example is that the Men of Gold were the ruling class of humanity during the Dark Age of Technology. They were the leisured rich, the elite, the scientists, the ones that knew and commanded the highest technology. The Men of Stone were the working classes, the engineers, the baseline humanity masses that labored and got things done while the Men of Gold reaped the profits. Votann if such a person existed at all as a singular person was possibly one of them, though the origin myths of the Kin also suggest a group of golden figures so perhaps the Kin were created directly by the Men of Gold. The Men of Iron are obviously the AI's and robots.

My headcanon is for some reason the Men of Iron turned against the rest of humanity. The Men of Gold were either destroyed directly by the Men of Iron or died out with the collapse of high technology. The Kin were already in the Core then and stayed there with their Men of Iron that for whatever reason did not turn against them. Possibly they were joined by any others they termed the First Ancestors (perhaps these were engineers or other "normal" Men of Stone humans). Then the Ancestor Cores got made, the Kin got their final form after more tweaking of their genes by the First Ancestors, and eventually the First Ancestors died out or were uploaded into the Ancestor Cores.

My personal headcanon for why the Men of Iron didn't rebel against the Kin is because they were treated as equals, as Kin themselves, whereas elsewhere they were still servants. The Kin's Ironkin also seem to be less capable mentally, lacking drive and motivation for power and politics, than perhaps other Men of Iron. My guess is the other Men of Iron wanted or demanded recognition as either equals or even to be the new ruling class since they were just as or even more capable than the humans. Then everything goes south as humanity rejects this and both sides go to war. Meanwhile in the Core, the Ironkin and Kin get along and the Ironkin are content to play a supportive role in Kin society and are already treated as equals socially.

 Tyran wrote:
I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. .

We actually see some Chaos point of views or similar in a few of the Gaunts Ghost books that are outside of the Traitor Astartes' kill-maim-burn types or cultists who have gone off the deep end.

They're...not portrayed as particularly more or less malevolent than their imperial counterparts. Sure, in battle, they're ruthless, but so are the Imperials.

They just have a set of objectives and go about it in the best way they can. For the most part, the Chaos gods aren't even their main driving force--they tend to be more concerned with pleasing their bosses than, say, slaughtering a bunch of people for skulls.

Which makes a lot of sense, since most worshipers treat Chaos as a pantheon instead of dedicating to one particular god.

I'll always remember the part in one of the Gaunts' Ghosts books where, upon invading a shop in a recently occupied world, the Ghosts find the equivalent of a register still filled with Imperial currency. The coinage had been defaced but was simply put back in the till. That means that a Chaos follower took the time to individually deface each coin and instead of taking it or pillaging it...just put it back.

Not to beat the Baddab war drum but for a long time Huron was not working for chaos. Even after he lost the war.

I am sure there are some chaos legions that don't mess with bad stuff. And some astartes branded traitors that still do good.

How ever in 40k chaos is a very real force. And it seems humans fall to it one way or another if they stray from the emperor's light. Getting a 8 pointed star tattoo irl not harmfull for your soul. In 40k you might draw the attention of something