Perhaps as a sign of how out of touch I have become, is it confirmed that the Squats, Demiurge and Legion of Voltron are in fact one and the same?







Or is it more a wink and a nod sort of thing left for us to guess?

From the five page discussion thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/807357.page

 Gert wrote:
Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

Officially, "Squats" is a slang-term sometimes used by humans to refer to members of the Leagues of Votann.

I don't think they're connected to the Legion of Voltron, though. That sounds more like a Tau-affiliated group.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Perhaps as a sign of how out of touch I have become, is it confirmed that the Squats, Demiurge and Legion of Voltron are in fact one and the same?

Or is it more a wink and a nod sort of thing left for us to guess?

no, its official they are all branches of the same race. The League of Votann is their core civilisation, which sits deep in the normally uninhabitable Galactic Core (which is why they are generally not well known). they refer to themselves as "kin" (though that term is not exclusive to their race. they refer to AI's of sufficient intelligence as Kin and treat them as full members of society). they are discribed as "straddling the line between abhuman and xenos", and make extensive use of genetic engineering to adapt to thier situation.

"squats" is a somewhat rude name given to the Kin who live in imperial space as abhumans, most notably the ones on Necromunda. The necromunda squats are explictly not in regular contact with the Leagues, though both accept the other as being of the same race.

the "Demiurge " are the Kin who dealt with the Tau, and sold them Ion technology. These appear to me almost entirely fleet based group, which gave credance to the idea that they were the last surviors of a dying race, but they are in regular contact with the main Kin leagues in the core, so its not a total offshoot.

The Kin actively exploit their ability to appear human to the xenophobic humans, and xenos to human-phobic aliens, for fun and profit.

When it comes to Demiurg, it’s also implied there’s a certain “plausible deniability” there, as should the Imperium find out the Kin are arms dealers to others, it’s likely to attract unwanted attention, such as “Stop That!” Crusade, or even refusal to trade.

But yeah. Kin, Squats, Demiurg (and some others, if I recall correctly) are one and the same in species, if not necessarily culture.

Most beings don’t know about LOV even if they are familiar with some squats or demiurge. LOV have been very secretive is what I remember from their lore.

I also think that squats living on necromunda, for example, don’t use cloning to reproduce and they do “it” the old fashioned way. So they they don’t have lots of different genetic options like members of the leagues

 solkan wrote:
From the five page discussion thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/807357.page

 Gert wrote:
Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

Thank you. Good thread.

I like the idea of the Liaison of Voltaire but not enthused by the execution. The 70s sci fi look really does nothing for me. Especially when the Steampunk Epic Squats and AoS Sky Dwarves would make a perfect marriage.

But still some interesting stuff in there, reminds of the Zentrati from Robotech, a clone race bioengineered to love their work.

form my understanding, the Leagues have been strongly isolationist for most of their history, generally sticking to their home worlds in the core, and making only a occasionally forays into the wider galaxy. The imperium has in fact had many contacts with them, its just a combination of their significant differences between kin due to genetic manipulation, careful choices by the leagues about what they say and dont say, and to who, plus the generally secretive nature of the Imperium means the Imperium never really connected the various sighting as being all the same race as opposed to assorted minor xenos or abhuman groups. it was mainly the distruptions caused by the Great Rift that has forced the Leagues to operate much more openly outside the Core and the imperium has managed to connect the dots on their actions.

also, the Leagues are not a single polity with unified goals and policy, but a collection of minor nations that share a mostly uniform cultural background and outlook, rather like the city-states of Greece or medieval Italy, or the Ork Klans.

Hey look its me.
Was quite chuffed with that explanation when I did it, nice to see someone else use it as a reference.

Remember when Leagues of Vodafone were announced and early references to them, the Demiurg, and Squats all being the same species were made on livestream and in WarCom, etc. and people kept insisting they were not and arguing against anyone who even suggested it?

Heh, good times. I hope those people feel silly.

To be fair GW spent years going:
The Demiurg are Xenos
The Demiurg are Xenos
The Demiurg are Xenos
The Squats are Abhumans
The Squats are Abhumans
The Squats are Abhumans

I think it was Jervis who said the Demiurg are based on the same dwarf *archetype* as Squats

You can't blame fans for being skeptical of GW turning around and going "actually scrap what we've been saying for 20 years, they're the same thing" on the basis of a couple of vague offhand comments in Warcom

Ah, the Squats.

Here in the States, there's a linguistic distinction between various poses. For example, a man might "hunker down" and be engaged in thought, or planning, but when a guy "squats," there's an assumption that he's attending to a call of nature.

This is why "Epic Squats" always elicited a certain amount of laughter on this side of the pond.

"How's Bob?"

"Oh, he came down with a case of epic squats."

"Wow, hope he feels better."

When I embarked on my quest to build every army of 2nd ed. 40k, the Squats gave me pause. For one thing, there were hard to find. For another, Squats didn't really feel unique. The Dwarf stat line didn't mean much. Human leg infantry was painfully slow, and the IG in that edition cornered the market on the "armored fist."

That's why I think they faded away. Squat exo-armor was a weaker version of Terminators, and their superior WS didn't matter much in a game dominated by shooting.

Nice to see GW is still strip-mining its more creative years, though.

For another, Squats didn't really feel unique. The Dwarf stat line didn't mean much. Human leg infantry was painfully slow, and the IG in that edition cornered the market on the "armored fist."

That's why I think they faded away. Squat exo-armor was a weaker version of Terminators, and their superior WS didn't matter much in a game dominated by shooting.

Bit of a detour, but do people think LoV feel sufficiently distinctive in modern 40k? When they came out, I remember thinking that they seemed really similar to admech/marines. Like, on the guardsman-to-custodes spectrum, it seemed like they were making admech scootch over next to sisters and would have been sitting on first borns' laps if firstborn didn't have a second wound.

Like, their infantry is steady-moving, better armor than a guardsman but usually worse than a marine with a bunch of special weapons squeezed into a single unit and some big chonky robots (well, exosuits) backing them up. And their HQs are basically marine HQs with some robot companions.

But I'm also hard to sell on dwarves in general. Do the people that like LoV feel they have their own niche, and if so, what is that niche?

The wiki (fan-based as it is) states that the Demiurge are am off-shoot league of Votann.

Also remember that Squats in Necromunda look more similar to the old version because they've been away from the Leagues for quite some time, and it's assumed they've had to use old tech/ weaponry and.... "Do it the old fashioned way" vs cloning.

 Wyldhunt wrote:


But I'm also hard to sell on dwarves in general. Do the people that like LoV feel they have their own niche, and if so, what is that niche?

I'm in the same boat. I think a steampunk dwarf army would be aces, but the Lasers of Vietnam are just "near future-hold the anime", shorter hairier Tau. The occasional Norse touch is just out of place.

They look great, don't get me wrong, but distinct? Not really. I'd use AoS classic Dwarves or Sky Dwarves before the Lesions of Vaporware.

They’re a “what-if” and “what-about” of 40K lore answered, without being a complete, clear answer.

They represent higher end, pre-Crusade human technological might. We see the fruits of the STC clearly.

Visually there are design links to Kastellan Automata and House Van Saar “no honest, Dave just really really understands this stuff” tech. There are of course even hints of Imperial tech being derived from similar templates.

And all without outright answering everything, and throwing up even more questions. If you read my wibbling in the thread linked earlier, I find their possible status as engineered bio-automata, ultimately lacking in true free will horrifying and fascinating.

Their war gear is also an interesting design thing (paradigm?). You can tell it has its roots in civilian equipment, but being a properly thought out re-development into military capability, rather than “weld some plating on and call it armour”.

I love ‘em.

Space dwarfs feel funny to me. Not particularly original or anything but I feel they fit space fantasy well. I do admit on the other hand that 40k is not as silly and colorful as it used to be when squats were around so they might be out of place in current 40K. GW itself at some point admitted, IIRC, that they weren't happy with old squats.
As for LoV, judging pure aesthetic I feel there more sci fi, clean look is too remeniscent of the tau. Because of it I don't feel hyped thinkng about them.

That's ultimatly a matter of tastes though.

I think LOV have a lot of potential to very unique and fill an interesting gap in 40K law. Without the cult of the imperium they are an interesting window into the past of humanity with the big ancestor AIs and possible men of iron descendant AIs. I’d like to see this part of their army expanded and get some really esoteric AI war engines. Maybe even a whole league made up of AI life forms

They’re also on the brink of their own Dark Age.

As a society, whilst they’ve clearly preserve their STC’s better than anyone else? They’re still utterly dependant on them. So as the Votann start shutting down, or has happened at least once, gone insane? Their goes their tech base, and worse, their breeding programme.

mrFickle wrote:
I think LOV have a lot of potential to very unique and fill an interesting gap in 40K law. Without the cult of the imperium they are an interesting window into the past of humanity with the big ancestor AIs and possible men of iron descendant AIs. I’d like to see this part of their army expanded and get some really esoteric AI war engines. Maybe even a whole league made up of AI life forms

I still can't help but find a tau vibe in this.

The whole IA league however could be a good idea, but could easily be given over to the tau with Abominable intelligence starting to be a thing for them too.

Personnal thoughts.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


Lasers of Vietnam
Lesions of Vaporware.

Just wanted to say that I am really enjoying the utter contempt you are expressing for the faction through all of these diss names.

No, it's not contempt, it's just called a sense of humour

I'm really glad they brought back a 'dwarf in space' archetype as really they make more sense than any other fantasy trope (orcs or elves etc) with the whole mining, engineering and being comfortable in small space-thing which works well in the space setting.

It's neither, it's an inability to remember GWs coined names like the Latrines of Venice.

Why can't they just call them Space Dwarves?

Because that can't be copyrighted. Where have you been for the last decade?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Latrines of Venice.

That's a coffee table book.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's neither, it's an inability to remember GWs coined names like the Latrines of Venice.

Why can't they just call them Space Dwarves?

Yeah, like Age of Sigismund or whatever. All chock full of Yerch (not orcs) who fight the Aeiliedarerrr (totally not elves) who roam the Windsnarf of Smuglund fighting the sinister Cashhmere Sweaterzz.

So much trademarked gibberish.

Fantasy Dwarfs work because they're a classic heavy infantry army, basically Han Chinese - gunpowder, crossbows, no cavalry to speak of, dense units stoic resistance. Yeah, I know, they got the Tolkien gloss of being Super Saxon Housecarls, but it's an interesting tactical concept.

In the 40k universe, everyone has BFGs, and (except for that odd moment in 3rd when infantry could run faster than vehicles), driving is the way everyone gets around.

At least the Squats had some humor value - pint-sized biker dudes on comically oversized sidecar choppers.

As I said, I've looked at the lore, Black Codex and such, but I just don't feel there's much going on. Maybe as allies for color, but not a standalone army.

Careful there you might cut yourself on all the edge you just posted.

I don't think Leagues of Votann is any harder to remember than Adeptus Astartes or Adeptus Mechanicus, which have both been in the lore for decades. It isn't really any weirder than Craftworld Eldar instead of (light) Space Elves either.

Leagues of Votann at least sounds like an actual civilization rather than a mere trope like Space Dwarfs. Afterall, we call the main human faction the Imperium of Mankind, not Space Humans...

I mean, the Black Codex was a get-you-by index style list made during a period when GW have already said they had no idea what to do with the squats to bring them into like with the shift the rest of the setting was going through, so it's perhaps not the best place to look to get a feel for them.

They shone in Epic, where they could deploy cannons the size of titans and superheavy airships and their background was a lot more fleshed out as being technologically progressive (the Adeptus mechanicus destroyed Ganymede trying to replicate a Squat Warp-Plasma power generator) and their society was mapped out in a way very similar to what they chose to retain of the Leagues of Votann - just not clones, obviously

Almost everyone who expresses an opinion on Squats was not around in the hobby to experience them their first time round. They were entirely setting-appropriate for the period they were in - a time before GrimDark (Literally, Grimdark takes its name from the tagline of 3rd edition 40k, when it was becoming more widespread and mainstream). The Black Codex was the start of Second edition, and at that point the lore was becoming more settled and taking itself a little more seriously, the design team had already decided they weren't going to bring Squats into 2nd edition at that point.

Taking their RT/start of 3rd Lore and going "haha, lookit the silly biker dwarves, they don't fit in 40k" is like going "haha, lookit the half-Eldar Ultramarine Chief Librarian" or "Oh look that Inquisitor is named Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau" or "haha, Chaos Genestealer Cults with possessed patriarchs" - yes, they look silly when you examine them outside their original context, but if they had gone through the same complete transformative change every other race had gotten in the transitions from RT to 2nd to 3rd, then they'd have become a more serious and integrated part of the lore rather than the weird little biker parody they started of as, but the design studio couldn't think of a direction to take them in.

Remember: all WH40k lore is "true"- it just may or not be canon. Meaning- who knows if the Ordos Redacticus got to it yet...

One of the first introductions to Squats for me was when GW put out Inquisitor range of Maxi-Minis, they republished Inquisitor, renamed Draco. While the whole novel didn't fit the 2000's background, the squats seemed really out there- I mean, sure and Inq. can have anyone in thier retinue, but when the mini- Sturges rejects showed up, I was aghast to say the least. Other things rankled me too- like the fact the Callidus assassin infiltrated purebred genestealers.. Uh, hello? Hive mind synapse?!?

I guess GW just didn't really know where to fit the stunties, and come up with a unique aesthetic for them. If you look at the old Ork range, it was... kinda derpy.

Example: Original Ghaz:


Take off the gun and you have an old WHFB orc warlord.
It was only after Gorkamorka came out that the orkks got thier ramshackle Mad Max vibe everyone loves so much that they got cool, IMHO:


But- back to stunties: To me it seems GW is trying to shoehorn/ retcon in more futuristic look to humans and the Squats are supposed to be Abhumans with dark age o' tech stuff, so it looks more tau-ish/ closer to primaris/ custodian stuff. Which means, GW had to have a reason why the Imperium's stuff looks different instead of "New edition, new look, deal with it".

Charax wrote:
Almost everyone who expresses an opinion on Squats was not around in the hobby to experience them their first time round. They were entirely setting-appropriate for the period they were in - a time before GrimDark (Literally, Grimdark takes its name from the tagline of 3rd edition 40k, when it was becoming more widespread and mainstream). The Black Codex was the start of Second edition, and at that point the lore was becoming more settled and taking itself a little more seriously, the design team had already decided they weren't going to bring Squats into 2nd edition at that point.

"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war" is very prominently displayed on the 2nd ed. box. Now GW at the time was all about bright colors and the painters were in love with red, but that was also a function of the aesthetic of the time. Stallone's Judge Dredd was dressed like a Vegas lounge act, but it was still supposed to be a grimdark storyline.

Third ed. had a darker look because the Goth asethetic had emerged and was thought to be edgy and cool.

Well, except for the Tau, who were bright, clean and shiny, and I think theirs was the only codex that featured cheerful, sunlit artwork on the cover. But I digress.

Taking their RT/start of 3rd Lore and going "haha, lookit the silly biker dwarves, they don't fit in 40k" is like going "haha, lookit the half-Eldar Ultramarine Chief Librarian" or "Oh look that Inquisitor is named Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau" or "haha, Chaos Genestealer Cults with possessed patriarchs" - yes, they look silly when you examine them outside their original context, but if they had gone through the same complete transformative change every other race had gotten in the transitions from RT to 2nd to 3rd, then they'd have become a more serious and integrated part of the lore rather than the weird little biker parody they started of as, but the design studio couldn't think of a direction to take them in.

Right, they only worked as comic relief, which was my point.

I mention the Black Codex not because it was authoritative, but because it showed the state of the art at the start of 2nd, and a possible blueprint for the future growth of army miniatures lines. It's interesting to see what was expanded vs what was let go, and the evolutionary dead end that was Squats was already apparent.

To put it another way: yet another subfaction of the Imperium required more differentiation than defending Snow White.

I am pretty sure calling early edition Orks derpy and criticising the Inquisition War books is a bannable offence on this forum?

Completely agree with Charax's post above about the Squats being 'of their time', which was specifically a Rogue Trader range of minis. They went perfectly with the 2000AD-esque aesthetic of wounded marine miniatures, punk/sci-fi guard and pirate eldar. So judging them by modern standards (which was a defence you often read by people who were actively opposed to Space Dwarves returning) I don't think was fair at all.
Now the LoV (Latrines of Venice) fit perfectly with the modern 40k aesthetic and are a pretty damned cool range of miniatures. I would say they fit in better as a concept than something like the introduction of Primaris does, and certainly have done a lot less to upend the suspension of disbelief within the setting.

 Pacific wrote:
Now the LoV (Latrines of Venice) fit perfectly with the modern 40k aesthetic and are a pretty damned cool range of miniatures. I would say they fit in better as a concept than something like the introduction of Primaris does, and certainly have done a lot less to upend the suspension of disbelief within the setting.

I think there's more agreement than disagreement in terms of why they were dropped.

As to whether they fit now, they've certainly got more lineage than a lot of the Space Marine stuff.

And at this point, the design space is so incredibly cluttered that having duplicative units seems to be the rule rather than the exception, so there's the functional case against them in 1995 is no longer valid.

Once GW got serious about 40k, there was a desire to strongly differentiate the armies. The generic categories of troops, fast attack, heavy support, etc. or the sense that every line should have an equivalent weapon system/unit function was anathema to the design philosophy. Instead, the whole point was how radically different the armies were, necessitating significant differences in play style.

That policy started to go away in 3rd and GW never looked back. This creates room for the Lassitude of Voltan to do their thing.

Worth noting the first true sign Squats weren’t coming back wasn’t until Epic 40,000 dropped, a year or so before 3rd Ed ruined everything ()

All throughout my 2nd Ed Codex Collection, we’re told Codex Squats is coming, and allies could be picked from it.

But Epic 40K? Squats gone, despite being a gorgeous army for Epic.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Worth noting the first true sign Squats weren’t coming back wasn’t until Epic 40,000 dropped, a year or so before 3rd Ed ruined everything ()

All throughout my 2nd Ed Codex Collection, we’re told Codex Squats is coming, and allies could be picked from it.

But Epic 40K? Squats gone, despite being a gorgeous army for Epic.

funnily enough they aren't mentioned as allies in the 2nd edition Sisters of battle codex either, released in the same year as epic 40k

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
"In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war" is very prominently displayed on the 2nd ed. box. Now GW at the time was all about bright colors and the painters were in love with red, but that was also a function of the aesthetic of the time. Stallone's Judge Dredd was dressed like a Vegas lounge act, but it was still supposed to be a grimdark storyline.

2nd edition was still a very very niche product, it wasn't generating any tropes of its own. I'm not saying that the Grimdark style didn't exist before 3rd edition, there are obviously many many things that the term could retroactively be called Grimdark, but the term and trope itself came about through a combination of 3rd edition's skyrocketing userbase and the shift to a more relentlessly dark tone compared to both RT and 2nd edition, not literally "it was the edition with those exact words on the box"

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
But- back to stunties: To me it seems GW is trying to shoehorn/ retcon in more futuristic look to humans and the Squats are supposed to be Abhumans with dark age o' tech stuff, so it looks more tau-ish/ closer to primaris/ custodian stuff. Which means, GW had to have a reason why the Imperium's stuff looks different instead of "New edition, new look, deal with it".

Except the Leagues aren't aligned with the Imperium and don't share technology with them. The Leagues are using technology that would have been used by Golden Age Humanity thousands of years before the Emperor even started the Unification Wars.
There are similarities because the Imperium uses STCs but not to the same degree as the Leagues who have fully functioning STCs as the the minimum standard for their industrial base and can manufacture things beyond the capabilities of the Imperium because they didn't suffer the ravages of the Long Night and the repression brought on by Mechanicus and Imperial dogma.

People need to stop using the word "retcon" whenever new things are added to the background. The Squats of old are represented as Kin who joined with the Imperium and were largely wiped out by the Tyranids. They were the outermost worlds of their race and still had advanced tech but not to the degree of the homeworlds in the galactic core.
It's not a "retcon" to say the Leagues weren't present in the galactic playground in a major way until now because they didn't need to be. The Galactic Core was resource-rich and largely out of the way of the major players so the Leagues didn't need to bother with the rest of the galaxy. Some did such as the Imperial-aligned Squats and the T'au-aligned Demiurg but both groups kept their origins and homes a secret because they didn't need the extra hassle. It suited the wider race to have the galaxy not believe that the Leagues were actually all over the place and hiding in plain sight as minor Xenos or holdouts suited them.

Indeed. Their addition has been about as organic as it could be. Certainly a smoother introduction, to my mind at least, than the Tau.

Their whole Schtick is being able to thrive in the Galactic Core, enduring conditions no other race really can - hence other than other species native to that region, nobody else has really made inroads.

That they share a common lineage of tech with The Imperium helps with that.

Their use of Bolters for instance matches the reason they were mass issued to the Astartes Legions. They’re short ranged, almost carbine, assault rifles well suited to boarding actions and other claustrophobic conditions. Rather than Plasma, they use Ion tech. Not quite as powerful, but zero chance of cooking yourself.

Add in their lore answers some questions, whilst posing new and interesting ones for me is just the cherry on the cake.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Their whole Schtick is being able to thrive in the Galactic Core, enduring conditions no other race really can - hence other than other species native to that region, nobody else has really made inroads.

Presumably this is a good way of keeping the classic rivalry with and hatred of Orks, as Orks are one of those races sufficiently tough to thrive pretty much anywhere and have likely been bothering LoV settlements for millennia even within the core.

That and they’re thieving, treacherous sods who are likely incapable of keeping to a trade agreement. Not to mention utterly anarchic, and so prone to just smashing stuff up and being generally disorderly.

The hatred could also be coded into Kin DNA. I mean, mankind must’ve encountered Orks fairly early on to our sojourns into the unknown. Given Orky nature is fairly straightforward, encoding instant hostility against a race known not only to pilfer whatever isn’t nailed down (and like Feegles, prise up anything that is nailed down, and filch the nails as well) would help protect the stockpiles of whatever has been mined.

 Gert wrote:


People need to stop using the word "retcon" whenever new things are added to the background.

I agree, but I had no real word for the fact that due to real-life technology/ aesthetics the look of many armies changed over the years, and GW had to say why at some point. My Ork example was just one of many- the 'Nids, Guard, Marine Boyz, all look different now than they did years ago. And now that we have 30k HH games, it's more prevalent between the newer models vs the old RT ones.

I'm not sure I follow exactly.

People didn't need it explained to them when models were updated before for 40k armies and they don't need it now.

When a model has significant changes such as various Marine characters moving to Primaris, then yeah a reason is given but that is an exception.

For the Leagues the explanation wasn't to do with the Imperium or the T'au or needing a justification for Primaris, it was just that the design team had finally found something they wanted to do with the Space Dwarf archetype and went for it.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
I agree, but I had no real word for the fact that due to real-life technology/ aesthetics the look of many armies changed over the years, and GW had to say why at some point. My Ork example was just one of many- the 'Nids, Guard, Marine Boyz, all look different now than they did years ago. And now that we have 30k HH games, it's more prevalent between the newer models vs the old RT ones.

It's a good word because it describes what is going on. GW can't just say "yeah, forget that old stuff, we're selling now models now," so they come up with an in-game reason for the changes.

But it is still "retroactive continuity," that is a link inserted after the fact to try to make the new thing they are doing fit.

It can only work in this kind of setting. In a non-fiction context, we'd call it anachronistic or simply wrong.

What we have here is GW recognizing that the Squat legacy still has resonance, and so they tried to find a way to get them into the current grimdark lineup.

Which is fine, but there's no reason we can't be honest about what is going on. At least the Tau were new idea, previously foreign to the background (and they should have stayed that way, but I digress). The Lemons of Venicebeach are obviously Squats, and so GW has to do the nostalgia/retcon to both present them as new and fresh to the kiddies just entering the game and the graybeards who want to know when the new chopper trike is model is coming out.

Yeah, that was what I was kinda getting at. The background of 40k is a bit more 'fluid"- everything is true, but not everything is canon. For all we know the half-eldar librarian was a bad drug trip that some Adeptus Administorum had, and filed for later.

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Yeah, that was what I was kinda getting at. The background of 40k is a bit more 'fluid"- everything is true, but not everything is canon. For all we know the half-eldar librarian was a bad drug trip that some Adeptus Administorum had, and filed for later.

What's with that half Eldar librarian again? I've heard about this story once but don't quite remember

Illiyan Nastase is a half-Eldar, half-Human Imperial Astropath, who was the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines in late M41. Before this, Nastase had been a Consul helping to run the advisory Senate to the Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and had assignments with the Imperial Fleet and Dark Angels Chapter

Old lore is old

Love old lore, that's so silly

Again praising Taran, that lovely french website that translated like 90 of it from WD, codices, rulebooks, RT....

Of course, that’s from before Space Marines were genhanced, post-human crimes against nature!

The early days of 40K are really fascinating. Over my collection of 1st Ed books, you can see it go from “sod it, put it in”, and over the years refined to the point where very late stage Rogue Trader was pretty much 2nd Ed.

And not just in terms of rules, but background. As a study in wild and unrestrained creativity, it’s a blast!

Taran translated Waagh da ORKS, Realms of chaos, and summarised all what was published by GW in those early years, subdivided in RT ans 2nd edition sub-categories. It appeared to me just as you describe it: gradually refined into a form so thorough in both rules and lore they finally jumped into a second edition.

That's how I got acquainted with senseis star child, old squats and all myriad of strange stuff that ended up as dead ends or changed but I keep as head canon because it is just that great.

I'd have to remind them, but I actually email Scribe Patatovitch, founder of Taran, to know of any 2nd edition events were live that I could go to. His website is full of colourfull battles and campaign reports and I'd like to dive into that old 40k!

On topic, Ind like to fight against squats in their 2nd iteration as I like them and wished they still existed, as out of place as they would now seem.

And to fellow Frenchmen who would happen to read by:
Compatriotes, si vous savez où trouver des parties V2, envoyez un message privé, ça m'intéresse!

I thought the idea was (and still is) that the squats we knew back in the day were outlying member of the LOV (remember not many people know about the LOV even if the interact with some of them occasionally) and those squats were devastated by the nids.

So to many people it might appear that had been almost entirely wiped out because the rest of the species was keeping to themselves in the galactic core. Until the galaxy was torn in half and now they need to vernture forth once more.

Even if that’s not canon it’s a good enough head cannon to simply explain what’s happened.

But the idea that the nids are the squats has been around for a long time

Exactly that. The new lore is more about “so why didn’t they poke their heads out before” than “oh they were well known just nobody thought to mention it”.

Tbh, this explanation of the LoV and their relation to the squats is not at all bad, I have notm grudge against it. I don't like their aesthetic though.

Has anyone got memories of when DE were introduced? How did their introduction compare to that of LoV? Mostly considering that rather than a whole new race, they are a facette of the wider Eldar race, much like LoV would be the wider species of squats.

Doc maybe?

Dark Eldar came out in 3rd, as part of their boxed set.

Sadly, that was an era when Codexes contained very little….anything. Certainly pretty much bugger all background. We knew about Commoragh, and that Vect was top dog. But it was all very bare bones.

It wouldn’t be until around 12 years later and their next Codex we got much in the way of proper background. However there may have been more in novels!

So….super poor to be honest! Tau and Necrons were treated better, as their advent was the next iteration of Codex, where GW remembered the lore is a significant part of the appeal.

Yeah I've got almost all 3rd codex (well in fact almost all codicies anyway), including DE (actually my copy is the 3.5), and their is almost no lore. Nice modelling pages however and miniatures' photos look neat.

That's strange though that they made so little lore for a faction that was included in the starter set, if my information is accurate.

I would love to know where that Nastase bit of background came from - I suspect it's based on the Romanian tennis player Ilie Nastase. I've just checked and he retired probably around the time Rogue Trader was being written, but was it just a name plucked from a sub-concious or is there something more to it? (Obviously nothing as crude/obvious as Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau! )

On the Dark Eldar front I kind of like how the background for them has been integrated as the game has developed. To begin with you just had 'eldar pirates' and these horribly malicious and belligerent aliens attacking and enslaving, during the first encounters in the great-crusade period, and then it was only later that humanity realised that there were different types of them.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Yeah, that was what I was kinda getting at. The background of 40k is a bit more 'fluid"- everything is true, but not everything is canon. For all we know the half-eldar librarian was a bad drug trip that some Adeptus Administorum had, and filed for later.

What's with that half Eldar librarian again? I've heard about this story once but don't quite remember

Huh, I thought I'd done a Retro Review on that issue but I guess not. Have a Lexicanum link instead.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Illiyan_Nastase

Basically Ultramarines were one of the first chapters to get a full write up, including their quadriplegic commander, their desert world filled with sand worms and their half Eldar librarian.

My pet theory is that history in the Imperium is like history in 1984.
"We are war with the Eldar, we have always been at war with the Eldar."
"But weren't the Eldar our allies literally last week? And isn't Illiyan over there half Eldar?"
"Illiyan who?" (Takes out bold pistol)
"As you say sire, we have always been at war with the Eldar."

Remember this is the most oppressive regime imaginable.

 Pacific wrote:
I would love to know where that Nastase bit of background came from - I suspect it's based on the Romanian tennis player Ilie Nastase. I've just checked and he retired probably around the time Rogue Trader was being written, but was it just a name plucked from a sub-concious or is there something more to it? (Obviously nothing as crude/obvious as Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau! )

On the Dark Eldar front I kind of like how the background for them has been integrated as the game has developed. To begin with you just had 'eldar pirates' and these horribly malicious and belligerent aliens attacking and enslaving, during the first encounters in the great-crusade period, and then it was only later that humanity realised that there were different types of them.

Well, some of humanity. Ciaphas Cain has met Craftworlders and Commorites, and either doesn’t know or care about the distinction between them given it tended to be under combat conditions.

Tongue in cheek as those novels are, they don’t really break the lore in anyway. So outside of the Inquisition and Astartes (even then possibly only the command echelons?) if it’s got pointy ears and a gun, it’s a threat in need of shooting.

Returning to the original question, keep in mind all of the RT armies were a bit samey, limited by modelling tech, capital to invest and a desire for cross compatibility (everyone used the same weapons for example).

It was only in mid to late RT they started to take on lives on their own with Eldar Craftworlds and Harlequins, the Chaos Books, Etc.

For Squats their real development was in Epic.



They went from short bikers to a full Steampunk Jules Verne/HG Wells army with armored blimps, land trains, and building sized super tanks.

Which is why I still prefer the AoS Sky Dwarves to the Legends of Vegas NASApunk (love that word)/Atomic Age models. To my mind the Epic Squats are imprinted as what the army should be, and even after Steam Punk Dwarves have sort of become a fantasy cliche they're still what I see in mind's eye.

On the other hand? A race noted for its technological knowledge and capability sending its warriors into battle with a ballistic vest for armour….doesn’t sit right.

Their current gear echoes the Terminator armour project. Starting from mining and industrial equipment, and finding a way to turn that into useful armour, without comprising the original benefits (sealed environment, comms units etc).

 TheChrispyOne wrote:
Yeah, that was what I was kinda getting at. The background of 40k is a bit more 'fluid"- everything is true, but not everything is canon. For all we know the half-eldar librarian was a bad drug trip that some Adeptus Administorum had, and filed for later.

I think you have that backwards, everything is Canon- not everything is true.

To be fair, thinking about 2nd edition covers and artworks and models, in the end, they all were kind of "goofy", both because of tech and aesthetics.

But look at space marines. Can you get goofier than they were in those old artworks? In these silly robot like armours?

And yet they were refined both in minis and artworks with 3rd rolling out and setting up a new tone.

Which leads me to think, in the end, squats could totally have followed the same path: less bright colours, better scaled armour, and better models, and they could have looked cool too. But we'll never now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the other hand? A race noted for its technological knowledge and capability sending its warriors into battle with a ballistic vest for armour….doesn’t sit right.

Their current gear echoes the Terminator armour project. Starting from mining and industrial equipment, and finding a way to turn that into useful armour, without comprising the original benefits (sealed environment, comms units etc).

That's pretty much a problem across the game. As the Space Knight faction the Space Marines kind of the corner on heavy armor, everyone else's standard troops must be more lightly armored.

"We Eldar are a dying race, our light flickers but we shall never let it die, we shall fight, fight to protect the remaining embers of our once-great civilizations and protect every precious Eldar life! So yeah, Bha'Bi the Flower Arranger, here's your 12" range gun and your semi armored bright yellow jumpsuit with a pointy hat. If you die, we will make a passing effort to join your soul stone to the Infinity Circuit."

And considering the Lacerations of Venus send folks into battle shirtless I'm not sure it's been fixed.

Eh, the design team at the time couldn't find a place for them as they were and I can't blame them.
Sometimes things are just too goofy and need to be stripped to the basics and rebuilt.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the other hand? A race noted for its technological knowledge and capability sending its warriors into battle with a ballistic vest for armour….doesn’t sit right.

Their current gear echoes the Terminator armour project. Starting from mining and industrial equipment, and finding a way to turn that into useful armour, without comprising the original benefits (sealed environment, comms units etc).

That's pretty much a problem across the game. As the Space Knight faction the Space Marines kind of the corner on heavy armor, everyone else's standard troops must be more lightly armored.

"We Eldar are a dying race, our light flickers but we shall never let it die, we shall fight, fight to protect the remaining embers of our once-great civilizations and protect every precious Eldar life! So yeah, Bha'Bi the Flower Arranger, here's your 12" range gun and your semi armored bright yellow jumpsuit with a pointy hat. If you die, we will make a passing effort to join your soul stone to the Infinity Circuit."

And considering the Lacerations of Venus send folks into battle shirtless I'm not sure it's been fixed.

I’m not sure that tracks.

Space Marines are indeed Space Knights.

But being Space Dwarfs, why not Carapace armour? And why Lasguns, when Bolters existed, and Eldar got their Shuriken weapons super early on.

4+ Save(carepace), bolter or ion gun.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Here in the States, there's a linguistic distinction between various poses. For example, a man might "hunker down" and be engaged in thought, or planning, but when a guy "squats," there's an assumption that he's attending to a call of nature.

Perhaps in your part of the States. In my part, it's either an exercise, or something a small group of men do when they're out in the wild and want to have a quick, impromptu planning session (and might end up using dirt as an impromptu drawing surface).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not sure that tracks.

Space Marines are indeed Space Knights.

But being Space Dwarfs, why not Carapace armour? And why Lasguns, when Bolters existed, and Eldar got their Shuriken weapons super early on.

I think you already know the answer: the Eldar were a design priority and the Squats weren't. The Eldar codex was one of the first ones published, while the fate of the Squats was uncertain. Like the Eldar, the Squats has something of a militia force with light weapons and armor, and then heavier "professional" troops that could be lavishly equipped. GW's design team simply never got around to it.

Obviously, the Lampreys of Victoria got a bit more attention, what with a full army and all that.

My first game of 40k was RT, but I didn't start playing and collecting until midway into 2nd, so much of the lore had taken what was assumed to be its final form. Squats were simply being starved, and I think the writing was plainly on the wall when the Necrons popped up in WD and the Squats still had, well, squat.

Again, I think the core problem is that Dwarfs...in...Spaaaaace just doesn't resonate with a lot of people. The Eldar made the jump by simply being even more otherworldly and having strange, super-advanced technology. Orks went the other direction - junk dealers roaming the galaxy beating people up and taking their stuff. Road Warrior is a fun and cool concept, and GW went with it.

A huge reason why the Laughter of Vogons is now viable is that GW has no problem with cluttering up the design space - the Dark Eldar and later the Tau demonstrated that. The design team during the 1990s was much more self-conscious about the integrity of the product, and folks have corrected noted a sense of "Okay guys, let's make this a serious game" going on.

As a sidebar, I will note that the Battle Bible actually referred to the current version (circa 1998) as the third edition for 40k, not the second. We've retroactively lumped all the RT stuff together, but the publication of the Compendium was apparently taken as a version 2.0, and of course 2nd when it came out, was a further refinement and expansion.

Which is why actual 3rd was such a shock, because it broke from both established practice at GW regarding Fantasy but also the way in which 40k itself had evolved.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
That's pretty much a problem across the game. As the Space Knight faction the Space Marines kind of the corner on heavy armor, everyone else's standard troops must be more lightly armored.

"We Eldar are a dying race, our light flickers but we shall never let it die, we shall fight, fight to protect the remaining embers of our once-great civilizations and protect every precious Eldar life! So yeah, Bha'Bi the Flower Arranger, here's your 12" range gun and your semi armored bright yellow jumpsuit with a pointy hat. If you die, we will make a passing effort to join your soul stone to the Infinity Circuit."

It took a while, but eldar actually feel reasonably well-armored at this point. The basic troops are wearing 4+ armor making it comparable to the armor human elites like scions wear. And at least in the case of aspect warriors, it apparently shakes off damage well enough to warrant an invuln save (unless that's meant to represent aspect training; idk.) My space elves aren't wrapped in a tank's worth of power armor, but they also don't feel like they were given a flakk jacket and a thumbs up for their basic equipment. Their guns are longer-ranged now too, though reasonably people could definitely argue that they should have had a lasblaster options all these years.

Eumerin wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

Here in the States, there's a linguistic distinction between various poses. For example, a man might "hunker down" and be engaged in thought, or planning, but when a guy "squats," there's an assumption that he's attending to a call of nature.

Perhaps in your part of the States. In my part, it's either an exercise, or something a small group of men do when they're out in the wild and want to have a quick, impromptu planning session (and might end up using dirt as an impromptu drawing surface).

I grew up hearing all these interpretations. After finishing a set of squats at the gym, your friends might pop a squat to make weekend plans and decide to go camping meaning you'll have to be ready to pop a squat in the woods due to the lack of plumbing.

Again, I think the core problem is that Dwarfs...in...Spaaaaace just doesn't resonate with a lot of people. The Eldar made the jump by simply being even more otherworldly and having strange, super-advanced technology. Orks went the other direction - junk dealers roaming the galaxy beating people up and taking their stuff. Road Warrior is a fun and cool concept, and GW went with it.

Hot take and super nerdy rant incoming: I think the problem is more with dwarves in general. Tolkien/D&D/Warcraft kind of cemented this idea that dwarves and elves are both definitely their own things, but mythological dwarves were sorta-kinda interchangable with elves. And not-"dwarves"-but-short-magical-guys in non-norse myths were similarly sorta-kinda interchangeable with other "fey" creatures. Like, classic dwarven things include stuff like opening magical portals to other locations (vaguely webway gate-y, although the webway is more of a Faerie lands analogue), having hats that make them invisible (stealth tech), doing magic in general (let's call that psychic powers), crafting physical objects out of ethereal concepts (going to stretch and make an argument for comparing this to bonesinging), being associated with concepts of sleep/dream (vaguely reminiscent of being "elf-shot") and just generally just falling into lots of "fey" tropes.

The booze-and-beards version of dwarves a lot of people think of today are kind of more of a modern meme than an ancient aesthetic. Like, the eldar can draw upon all the fey, elf, and "other"/"outsider" tropes they want, and that gives them a pretty rich aesthetic to work with even before you get into their pretty cool 40k-specific lore. But for something like squats (or most fantasy takes on "dwarves"), you either have to lean into the beards-and-booze thing, or else you have to create something more or less wholecloth.

Which is a very long-winded of saying that yeah, without the "silly" elements like the biker motif or the angry beard guy angle, what was really left of old squats for people to resonate with that wasn't already covered by other human factions? But then again, I have trouble getting into dwarves in most games, so maybe this is just my bias showing.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Again, I think the core problem is that Dwarfs...in...Spaaaaace just doesn't resonate with a lot of people.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Tbh, this explanation of the LoV and their relation to the squats is not at all bad, I have notm grudge against it. I don't like their aesthetic though.

Has anyone got memories of when DE were introduced? How did their introduction compare to that of LoV? Mostly considering that rather than a whole new race, they are a facette of the wider Eldar race, much like LoV would be the wider species of squats.

Doc maybe?

My memory of DE being released was when GW could just to a chaos version of an army a bit like in WFB. Back then they seemed to be someone at GWs creative outlet for the S&M fantasies. Lots of DE witches in skimpy outfits torturing men for the fun of it, blood orgies and so on. And they didn’t it for the fun of it not because they were saving themselves from slaneesh. I think they had just gone over to slaneesh. But they had always been there and I don’t think GW felt the need to explain their existence as 40K was a setting back then an who know what else is out there. It was in the same period that white dwarf gave us army lists for space pirates and penal legions.

And how were tau and necron releases felt?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apart from the noobcrons meme I mean

I'm not sure what people expected. Squats barely survived into 2nd edition and that was thirty years ago, the other races have had a continuous existence and so their models track slow changes over time.

The term Leagues existed in the original lore as did the ancestor spirits that are now the Votann super computers. Votann replaced Grungi as that term.

The only real change is getting rid of the bikers and that really wasn't a bad thing.

I thought they just changed the bikers to hoverbikers?

Kind of. The point of origin is obvious, but they’re a development of making bikers rational in a formal army.

So leather jacketed baldies became pioneers, rugged individuals tasked with recon and finding new resources to exploit.

The same DNA I guess, but recombined,

 Haighus wrote:
I thought they just changed the bikers to hoverbikers?

Those old squat bikers were just a fist full of cliches and had a similar vibe to crazy bikes that orks had back then. To be fair the old squats sit somewhere between the pioneer survivalist that we see on necromunda and the high sci fi tech LOV. I really think that GW did the squats justice with the LOV despite them not having any lore or releases In a 30 year time frame

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
And how were tau and necron releases felt?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apart from the noobcrons meme I mean

The infamous thing when the 3rd Ed Necrons came out was GW shoehorning C’tan into essentially everything thing they could:

Fear of death
War in Heaven
Places the Nids avoid
Abaddon getting his sword
Cypher losing his sword
Creation of the Eldar and the Orks
And all sorts of other stuff.

Charax wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
Again, I think the core problem is that Dwarfs...in...Spaaaaace just doesn't resonate with a lot of people.

*big graphic*

GW knew there was a market for Dwarfs in general (heck, they had a Fantasy line for it), but the design team at that time could not find a place for them.

I think this speaks well of them, because they wanted each army in 40k to feel very different, not just in fluff but in game play. GW subsequently had no problem with design overlap because they wanted to sell miniatures, period.

One could also note that the Squat nostalgia market decided to go for the pure version, and if the game is half-decent and doesn't auto-reset every three years, they may be onto something.

Anyhow, I note that they do not call themselves the Legates of Vault.

 Gert wrote:

People need to stop using the word "retcon" whenever new things are added to the background. The Squats of old are represented as Kin who joined with the Imperium and were largely wiped out by the Tyranids. They were the outermost worlds of their race and still had advanced tech but not to the degree of the homeworlds in the galactic core.

Just where have you got this from? It's not what the current lore says about them.

A League who "joined with the Imperium and were wiped out by the Tyranids" who were at a lesser tech level than the rest has not been even hinted at in the lore of the Votann. There is no specific League Kin who represent the squats of old, the Leagues overall are the Squats.

There was 1 small League that did get wiped out by the Tyranids, but absolutely no connection has been made between that and the Imperium and Tau thinking they were wiped out entirely.

Were the old awaits part of the imperium? I didn’t think they were I thought they were allies. And they had their own vendetta with the Orks.

I don’t think LOV are specifically upset by the Orks unless I missed it

Leagues definitely do not like Orks. At all.

Some Squats were members of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and some Holds would readily fight alongside the Imperium.

I’d need to check my books, but I think IG used to be able to field limited Squat weapons.

IG had access to the like of capitol imperialis, a mega tank covered in meters of armour designed by the squats and provided in freindship to the imperium. That was back to when old Epic was a thing apparently

We do have those few Jes Goodwin (I think?) prototype sculpts, which might give some idea of what further Squat releases will have looked like. Again closer to the Epic style I think with artisan armour, axes etc. - as has been pointed out above, maybe something more like the Kharadron Overlords if you gave them bolt guns.

Anyone know where I put my Leagues codex?

Can’t find it anywhere.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone know where I put my Leagues codex?

Can’t find it anywhere.

Have you looked behind the sofa?


In the Votann 9th ed codex, there's reference to hatred of Orks and that certain Leagues went out of the core worlds and changed much of their aesthetic. We can read that as talking about the old RT and Epic era Kin. There's then a couple of mentions of some of those Leagues being devoured by the Tyranids. Some of them being more closely aligned with the Imperium. Then you have other Leagues who were trading with the Tau who looked quite different and so the assumption was that these were a completely different alien race and as the Kin don't much care for outsiders it doesn't bother them what the Imperials thought happened.

There's a really nice piece of artwork which has a mixture of all the Kin on it, the suggestion being that yours can look however you wish.

@Pacific - those Jes Goodwin sculpts are delightful. I have a good plan in mind for my next Kahl. That could fit the bill..

 Olthannon wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone know where I put my Leagues codex?

Can’t find it anywhere.

Certain Leagues went out of the core worlds and changed much of their aesthetic. We can read that as talking about the old RT and Epic era Kin.

Then you have other Leagues who were trading with the Tau who looked quite different

Can you give a quote for this? What does the codex say about Leagues "changing their aesthetic"? I've not seen that anywhere.

We have mention of 1 small League being eaten by Tyranids though, and it did not say anything about them being closely aligned with the Imperium.

The whole "They look like aliens" thing isn't a particular league either, it's just something that happens to the Leagues overall because of the cloneskein mutations affecting their appearance. It's not something with the Tau trading Leagues specifically.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone know where I put my Leagues codex?

Can’t find it anywhere.

Certain Leagues went out of the core worlds and changed much of their aesthetic. We can read that as talking about the old RT and Epic era Kin.

Then you have other Leagues who were trading with the Tau who looked quite different

Can you give a quote for this? What does the codex say about Leagues "changing their aesthetic"? I've not seen that anywhere.

We have mention of 1 small League being eaten by Tyranids though, and it did not say anything about them being closely aligned with the Imperium.

The whole "They look like aliens" thing isn't a particular league either, it's just something that happens to the Leagues overall because of the cloneskein mutations affecting their appearance. It's not something with the Tau trading Leagues specifically.

I'd have to look when I'm near the book.

No indeed, but clearly the League or Leagues trading with the Tau had a high abundance of these specific cloneskeins as they were markedly different and became known as the Demiurg in universe

Given that the Demiurg were a way of reintroducing the Squats the cloneskeins were a nice way of combining the two.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Anyone know where I put my Leagues codex?

Can’t find it anywhere.

Certain Leagues went out of the core worlds and changed much of their aesthetic. We can read that as talking about the old RT and Epic era Kin.

Then you have other Leagues who were trading with the Tau who looked quite different

Can you give a quote for this? What does the codex say about Leagues "changing their aesthetic"? I've not seen that anywhere.

We have mention of 1 small League being eaten by Tyranids though, and it did not say anything about them being closely aligned with the Imperium.

The whole "They look like aliens" thing isn't a particular league either, it's just something that happens to the Leagues overall because of the cloneskein mutations affecting their appearance. It's not something with the Tau trading Leagues specifically.

I'd have to look when I'm near the book.

No indeed, but clearly the League or Leagues trading with the Tau had a high abundance of these specific cloneskeins as they were markedly different and became known as the Demiurg in universe

Given that the Demiurg were a way of reintroducing the Squats the cloneskeins were a nice way of combining the two.

The "Demiurg" thing isn't to do with the Tau though, it's just one of the names the Leagues have gone under over the millenia, they were even encountered during the Horus Heresy as "The Demiurg".

A weird thing to be finickity about? I'm saying that the Demiurg were a Dwarf-like Xenos auxiliary to the Tau when they were introduced.

The Horus Heresy book you are referencing came out a few years after they were mentioned in their BFG supplement. This was to establish them as part of the universe by putting them in at the Heresy. Regardless, the Demiurg are most closely associated with the Tau than anything else.

Now, the established canon is that the Demiurg are the Leagues all along just the cloneskeins made them more alien looking than the more humanoid appearing Squats. Thus, GW tied up all the loose ends with their prior attempts to reintroduce Space Dwarves.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the other hand? A race noted for its technological knowledge and capability sending its warriors into battle with a ballistic vest for armour….doesn’t sit right.

Their current gear echoes the Terminator armour project. Starting from mining and industrial equipment, and finding a way to turn that into useful armour, without comprising the original benefits (sealed environment, comms units etc).

A lot of other design choices for the new Leagues of Votann range likewise make good sense, and suits Dwarfs in space with their maximalist and perfectionist approach. Load up the gear!

The NASA-punk look is not bull's eye aesthetically, but the story it tells with visual ties to the Dark Age of Technology is still beautiful and good for the setting as a whole.*

I agree that Kharadron Overlords fit better aesthetically, but the beauty here is that a great deal of variation will fit in fine under the wider Squat banner.

Rogue Trader and Epic Squats are solid in the aesthetical department. Looks were never an issue; background was, and background has now been fixed to good results.

Cheers

_______
* Coincidentally, the DAoT angle played right into my hands with ongoing writings and doodles. As a diehard Dwarf fanatic I'm laughing all the way to the bank on this one.

I find the 60/70s hard sci fi look fine, it just doesn't sing to me. And the occasional random Norse flourishes just seem out of place.

Much prefer the steampunk vikings of epic and the Sky Dwarves of Age of Sigmar.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I find the 60/70s hard sci fi look fine, it just doesn't sing to me. And the occasional random Norse flourishes just seem out of place.

Much prefer the steampunk vikings of epic and the Sky Dwarves of Age of Sigmar.

But that’s the AOS look. And I think GW had to do something different or a lot of people would have responded to LOV with a sense of “we’ve seen it all before and we weren’t interested then”.

I do think LOV just need something extra, they have this open book for AI and I’d like to see some sort of killer mining machine with lots of legs and the ability to drill through ceremite. And have the covert part of the Ad Mech desperately trying to capture one and take it apart

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Leagues definitely do not like Orks. At all.

Some Squats were members of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and some Holds would readily fight alongside the Imperium.

I’d need to check my books, but I think IG used to be able to field limited Squat weapons.

If you mean mole mortars and thudd guns, then yes. But, a lot of big guns and tanks were shared (such as the infamous harlequin land raiders) due to the limited number of kits at the time. Not sure there was ever really a fluff reason.

I meant Squat squads. Dunno why I typed weapons!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I find the 60/70s hard sci fi look fine, it just doesn't sing to me. And the occasional random Norse flourishes just seem out of place.

Much prefer the steampunk vikings of epic and the Sky Dwarves of Age of Sigmar.

I'm finding both to be out of place for me... maybe a bit more story and lore will help bring it all together.

Right now I'm asking myself why they even have iconography of bears and animals etc? Where does that come from for them?

The giant faces makes sense.

gravitywell wrote:
Right now I'm asking myself why they even have iconography of bears and animals etc? Where does that come from for them?

The giant faces makes sense.

That's an interesting point. We, being Earthlings, know all about the things here. Bears, elephants, moose, wallabies. They're here.

But do those things follow humanity into the void? And does Terra even have wildlife in M41?

Nibelungen In Space is fun, but how would the iconography translate so far into the future? Best not to think too much about it, I suppose.

In M41 they have used all the water on earth to cover it in hundreds of storeys of concrete. There could be whole sub-levels lost to history where it’s wall to wall bears.

Otherwise I’m sure there will be rats, mice, foxes, feral cats, snakes, weird tentacle beasties and lots of Catachan face eaters lurking in bathrooms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or even a horrifying meat-moon

https://what-if.xkcd.com/4/

 Flinty wrote:
In M41 they have used all the water on earth to cover it in hundreds of storeys of concrete. There could be whole sub-levels lost to history where it’s wall to wall bears.

Otherwise I’m sure there will be rats, mice, foxes, feral cats, snakes, weird tentacle beasties and lots of Catachan face eaters lurking in bathrooms.

Or even a horrifying meat-moon

https://what-if.xkcd.com/4/

No rust monsters?