Is there much info out there on how Ork units are resupplied in the field?
It is well documented that small, feral Ork settlements are self-sustaining via the orkoid ecosystem generated to meet the needs of the developing society. Essentially squigs provide foodstuffs, beasts of burden, and various chemical reagents; gretchin provide slave labour; and orks form a warrior and hunting class. Pigdoks act as sources of medical, vetinary, and mechanical knowledge. If the feral Orks begin to tech up, they have to scavenge or raid for advanced materials like metal to craft from. These are not the forces I am thinking about, because their logistics will be simple and small-scale, operating out of Ork village hubs where resources are stockpiled and processed. Raiding parties likely only have what they (and attendant slaves) can carry, and likely must return to the village if ammunition and/or food are depleted. I could see larger, more developed forces having accompanying baggage trains similar to medieval forces, but resupply of the baggage train in the field seems very unlikely (except by plunder, of course).
At the other end, Freebooterz, tribes, and Waaaaghs! have large quantities of fairly advanced gear utilising huge quantities of ammunition, fuel, and spare parts. It is also well documented that Orks use slave labour to produce most of their raw materials, equipment, and consumables, overseen by meks. Gretchin are part of this, but Ork groups will readily enslave other species like humans for this work, and routinely capture mines and workshops to turn over to Ork military production. Ork warbands belonging to such advanced forces regularly spend extended periods on the frontlines- good examples would be the Orks fighting along the trechlines in the 3rd War for Armageddon, the Siege of Hades Hive in the 2nd War for Armageddon, and the Tratican War (which involved an Imperial siege of an Ork fortress lasting over 2 months).
We also know that Orks have some understanding of logistics, probably instinctively- Orks are known to build ammunition stockpiles, such as those built by Warlord Thugsnik's big gun warbands on Armageddon that were sabotaged by stormtrooper raids. Orks in speed freek warbands are also known to have a preference for vehicles that are easy to maintain, as they tend to operate away from resupply for extended periods. It is also noted that Ork logistics are more resilient than Imperial logistics, Orks thrive in chaotic warzones and raiding Ork logistics can be extremely perilous due to their warlike nature, such as the failed Raid on Kastorel-Novem. However, they can be effective- the aformentioned raid on ammo dumps was significant, attacks on Ork airfields have been noted to significantly disrupt air operations coming from those fields, Yarrick's forces successfully destroyed Ork siege weapons before they could be deployed in the Siege of Hades, and slave partisan efforts to sabotage material produced in captured Tempestora Hive were noted to have an impact on Ork efficacy at the front (albeit not sufficient to recapture the hive).
Based on this, is there any lore describing how Orks move supplies from workshop areas to frontline troops? Do they have supply trukks, or just haul stuff with slaves on foot? Or are frontline Ork units rotated to the rear to resupply and replaced with fresh troops?
Orks take what they can carry. If an Ork can carry a Slugga, a Choppa, a couple of Stikkbombs and some spare ammo, then that's it.
He can loot more stuff of the gitz he kills or he can beat them to death with his bare hands.
You either come back from a scrap or you don't.
Remember Ork populations grow quite rapidly so replacing troops isn't a massive deal.
Gert wrote: Orks take what they can carry. If an Ork can carry a Slugga, a Choppa, a couple of Stikkbombs and some spare ammo, then that's it.
He can loot more stuff of the gitz he kills or he can beat them to death with his bare hands.
You either come back from a scrap or you don't.
Remember Ork populations grow quite rapidly so replacing troops isn't a massive deal.
That doesn't work in the very large or defensive Ork operations though, unless you are suggesting warlords and warbosses* rotate out Ork units that have depleted ammo? That would be feasible. The other option is just to continually send in fresh forces, but that heavily limits the supplies of survivors of older units at the front, who will have to take supplies from the reinforcements.
In addition, an Ork force that wins an engagement is not going to be able to replenish enough ammo from looting in the short term, so they need to supply from rear areas somehow. It is in the lore that Ork rear supply areas exist, my question is how those supplies reach the front. The only example I can think of is the 3rd edition codex stating ammo runts run back for ammo during a battle after being used, but don't make it back from camp in time for the end of the engagement.
*The canny ones anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of warlords and bosses who just expend their forces in a single engagement and simply lose if they cannot overwhelm their foes in one go. They are not typically the successful ones though.
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Edit: for clarity, I am referring to situations where the Ork forces are large enough that their forces and logistical bases are separated. A small force just returns to base after a scrap, sure. But a warband committed to a trenchline cannot just leave after an assault or "da big boss will give 'em a krumpin' for not followin' ordas", although they probably have a camp built into their defences where a local stockpile is kept. Likewise, artillery warbands are going to expend huge amounts of ammo and need resupplying in the field somehow. Those supplies are being produced and stockpiled by slaves and meks in rear areas, but they have to reach the front somehow, even if it is to resupply the frontline depots.
We know Oddboyz start popping up at different population densities. What starts off as Pigdoks, expands into Meks, Doks and Runtherdz to support the tribe.
Presumably, there’s some kind of rough ratio of manifestation, so no matter how big a tribe becomes, there’ll be enough Meks and Doks to go round, ensuring the logistics are there to support the Boyz, their guns and stop too many getting perished in the fighting.
And as a Waaagh! is comprised of multiple tribes, each will come with its own Oddboyz. Even an Ork force on a planet which isn’t part of a Waaagh! will again be comprised of multiple, largely self contained, Tribes.
Do keep in mind that a Tribe can also have different clans within it, depending on size. Yes some will be purely Goff or what have you, but the clans are more a leaning of an individual Boy, who eventually finds like minded Boyz to hang around with.
If we're talking defensive scenario then the Grotz push carts around filled with bullets and bombs or maybe the Boss Mek has made a crazy train system.
For anything else? What I said above. Orks bring what they can carry and if they win, then they nick whatever is and is not bolted down. They might have spare bullets on the Trukk or Wagon they rode on but they don't think that far ahead and military (or civilian) logistics aren't a thing.
Basecamps aren't a big deal for the Orks who will tear them down and turn them into transports or weapons, then build them back up again when they win the next scrap. There is no real "rear" because they just keep moving and establish new camps.
Take Helsreach as an example. The first landing zones were used as launching points but by the time the walls were breached and the Ordinatus reached the city, the original landing zones had been abandoned and torn down for more tanks, planes, guns, and armour scraps.
Rather, logistics is almost certainly hardwired into them, because of their obsession with fighting.
You know your shoota needs ammo. And for that, you go to the Meks. You can trade teef, scraps, maybe slaves. But even the lowest Boy will know what he needs, where to get it, and how to pay for it. Or where to send your Grots to nick it from.
Food? Squiggly beasts, corpses of foes, Snots and Grots are all viable food sources. All part and parcel of Orks Orking. More sophisticated food stuffs are usually hawked by enterprising Grots for a Toof, or maybe even the promise not to kick their head in if you’re currently broke.
This is again part of the secret of their success as a species. Wherever they go? Orkoid life follows. Squigs may well vary in tastiness, but all are inherently edible.
I just don't think this should be looked at too hard, as its difficult to see how it gets sorted. The question of where Orks get their kit from is key. Taking the current example of high-intensity conflict, Ukraine has been supplied with 300m small arms rounds and 3m artillery shells, in addition to whatever stockpiles they had before the war and its still not enough. You don't get proper supply to a conflict zone of this nature using cottage industries and Boyz kinda scrounging. The Imperium has whole worlds dedicated to these logistics, and even they can't keep up.
Orks * definitely* think about logistics to a certain degree, or are strongly implied to in various 40K fiction - for instance, the very fact that particularly large Mek workshops can produce things like Gargants comfirms orks are capable of (relatively) complex production and division of labour, which in turn assumes a (relatively) complex logistic process to get the bitz and such they need.
As for how they might handle frontline resupply? I guess they have those rickety, easily put-back-together trukks for a reason, eh. Anything the ladz can't scrounge off the battlefield (as others have said), they can either pay a mek to sort them out with individually, or in the case of a particularly big invasion a Warboss and his closest cronies might ensure some kind of supply deal with the local meks.
Half the stuff they need they don't necessarily worry about as strongly as humans would, because of the inherent, well, orkiness of the orks. After all, like Grotsnik says, why worry about food supply when you tend to spore your own food sooner or later - and can eat whatever you kill while you wait for it?
I think people are confusing logistics with industry.
Industry the Orks do shockingly well. They can churn out guns, ammo, and vehicles at breakneck speeds and it (usually) works as intended. They have an entire genetic subspecies with a genius intellect that can create marvels of technology from the simplest of parts.
They don't however, have a capacity for logistics. There is no supply corps for the Orks and they don't have any storage facilities beyond "We put da gunz there and da Squigz there". At best any transports might be used for ferrying Loot and Gubbins back to whatever camp has been set up, if that original camp is even returned to in the first place.
Stop and think for a moment. What percentage of humanity as we stand right now know how to make the casing, propellant and Pointy Bit* that comprises a bullet?
No, not those who know where to buy and assemble at home. But how to make all of that, from scratch? Even on the cottage “just for me” level?
I’m willing to bet it’s really not that many, at all. A tiny sliver of our overall populace, even in countries where firearms are more common.
Orks? There must be a Mek to Boy ratio. Because that’s how it’s presented in the fluff. And all it take is the Mek to build the moulding, pressing and *whatever you call making gunpowder process*ing. Then you leave that to the Grots, very few of whom are demented enough to take the field of battle.
Grots. Grots are your industry here. Indentured workers trading their efforts for food, protection, and maybe not getting beaten by their patron when said patron is bored, or fancies a laugh.
And Ork society being Ork society? Such dubious rewards absolutely are riches to a weedy little Grot. So they do the manky jobs, because of guaranteed (more or less) rewards.
*I genuinely don’t know what the right term is. Slug? Bullet? Killy Bit?
I think it’s best just to assume that space magic deals with it. The background is littered with the difficulties of imperial logistics, and that’s with an astonishingly small number of set weapon patterns. Assuming every second ork has a slightly different gun needing personalised logistics leads to madness. How do Orks scrounge for their sluggas and shootas when facing imperial forces that are largely based on lasguns? Or Eldar where everything is wraithbone?
Food wise, we would need to know how efficient ork metabolism is, but for humans, apparently just over 1kg of MREs are needed per day. Small regiments are needing several tons of food per day. The crazy Valhallan monstrosities needing upward of 100 tons per day. At this scale, it’s kind of hard to scavenge for it.
Is it efficiency of metabolism, or robustness of digestive system? The more things you can safely consume, the easier feeding yourself becomes.
We see this in nature with carrion feeders, which can eat even rotting meat safely thanks to their gut biome. Not to mention Orks have no taboo or seeming biological downside to cannibalism.
Lasguns don’t give a satisfying bang, but can still be melted down into more satisfying weapon components.
A Shoota may look unique, but that doesn’t mean every Shoota is of a unique bore/calibre*. And we can safely look to the general robust build of Orky gubbins to argue whatever variance does occur, the guns can mostly handle it.
That's still not logistics though. Logistics in the military sense is having dedicated supply chains which Orks don't have because they don't need it. There are no Ork Quartermasters divvying up the ammo and gear because that's not how Ork society works. An "ammo dump" is much more literal in that Orks will just pile bullets, rockets, guns, engines and other scrap on a big heap which they'll dig through later to find useful gubbins.
If an Ork is big and tuff, he'll get good loot and good gubbins. If he's got the teef he can pay a Mek to make some stuff for him.
As for Meks, while they only start to appear when an Ork gathering reaches a certain mass, they're still pretty common. A Big Mek is of course different and a Waaaagh might only have one but your bog-standard Mekboys are all over the shop.
The exception to the rule is possibly some Blood Axe Waaaagh's but they're all weirdos who do marchin' and salutin'. They ain't Propa' Orks.
Flinty wrote: Food wise, we would need to know how efficient ork metabolism is, but for humans, apparently just over 1kg of MREs are needed per day. Small regiments are needing several tons of food per day. The crazy Valhallan monstrosities needing upward of 100 tons per day. At this scale, it’s kind of hard to scavenge for it.
Orks are not picky about what "food" is. Have the Orks just wiped out 3,000 Guardsmen? That's 3,000 corpses that can and will be eaten. Throw in Squigs, Grotz, Snotz, various local wildlife, and if needs be, weaker Orks.
Ork society is entirely geared toward warfare. Where we have a Supermarket and Convenience Store, Orks have Meks of varying stock. And those Meks have plentiful Grots doing the boring bits, leaving the Mek free to create ever more elaborate guns etc.
Lasguns are complex combinations of plastics, different metals, probably some pretty complex chemistry in the power packs to hold the anmountnof energy needed for annlaser to do annything and in some cases wooden furniture. We have difficulty recycling coffee cups effectively. “Just melting it down” doesn’t really cut it
Agree that Orks can eat a wide range of things that we would not view strictly as food. However, what if they haven‘t just killed 3,000 guardsmen?
If they are consuming themselves Or even other orky ecosystem beasties where do all the calories come from to support them? Again, just need to point at space magic and not look too hard.
Squigs occur in The Drops. Basically the Ork latrine.
Being part fungoid, energy can come from many sources. And do keep in mind even if they’re not the descendants of the Krorks? Orkoid life forms have been genetically tinkered with.
Hell, it’s possible Orks can, to some degree, photosynthesise. Just because it’s not been delved into in any great depth doesn’t mean it’s therefore inexplicable. Spesh as this is a species confirmed to get bigger and stronger the more it fights and survives injuries.
So space magic. For scavenging to be effective for even a fraction of their sustenance they need to be able to convert what they find or can be exposed to into energy and biomass. The background has them basically as the most pervasive species in the galaxy, so they have to be able to do that in a wide range of environments. If squigs are living in the latrines, then there must be sufficient materials in the ork effluent for the squigs to be absorbing that wasn’t absorbed by the Orks themselves. But in order for those squigs to form a major part of ork diet then the ork need to be eating loads of stuff that they themselves can’t be using. It just boggles my brain and I have difficulty in believing how scavenging and cottage industries can support industrialised warfare.
It's not that difficult a concept IMO.
Orks spawn as fungi that are extremely adaptive and hardy. When they reach maturity they're an Ork at which point meat is back on the menu.
The Orks eat the weaker Orks, who release spores as they die, creating more fungi which creates more Orks.
Ork society progresses at a rapid rate because Ork life is so cheap and fast. When your race reproduces hundreds of generations in the time most others produce one or two, things move quickly.
You can say it's "space magic" or you can say it's advance genetics. It's sci-fi, weird stuff happens dude.
Fast reproduction is also based on collosal input of energy and biomass from somewhere in the ecosystem. I guess I can only deal in human historic terms, so ww2 European theatre had maybe 10m combatants supported by 1bn non combatants, and that was with the main armaments being produced in major mechanised factories, and everyone else making stuff, making food or gathering the stuff that helps make the other stuff and the food. The scale of the support structure needed to supply lot of giant angry fighters is huge, and I don’t think I e ever seen that alluded to in the background for orks.
I think the answer is that the great ork warbosses that are potrayed as super-slayers in the fluff are actually genius-level logisticians. That's not sexy in a miniatures game, but knowing where to send the squigs before they are needed, getting those runt-powered supply routes set up to keep the dakkadakka flowing, that's what distinguishes a legendary leader from just a goff boss on a raid.
Ork society is very hierarchic, and GW makes no money selling sculpts of Road Warrior cargo trukks driven by grots, but they're definitely out there.
Meks, gretchin and various trukks are the logistical side of the Ork waaaagh machine. They are great at it in fact, they have to be. Fightin' is what Orks are made for, so they gotta have the kit for the job. There's a huge caste of spanna boyz who do the making rather than just meks.
Rather, logistics is almost certainly hardwired into them, because of their obsession with fighting.
You know your shoota needs ammo. And for that, you go to the Meks. You can trade teef, scraps, maybe slaves. But even the lowest Boy will know what he needs, where to get it, and how to pay for it. Or where to send your Grots to nick it from.
Food? Squiggly beasts, corpses of foes, Snots and Grots are all viable food sources. All part and parcel of Orks Orking. More sophisticated food stuffs are usually hawked by enterprising Grots for a Toof, or maybe even the promise not to kick their head in if you’re currently broke.
This is again part of the secret of their success as a species. Wherever they go? Orkoid life follows. Squigs may well vary in tastiness, but all are inherently edible.
IIRC the ork codex pretty directly states that most warbosses are so disconnected from logistics that they don't even bring spare ammo.
So I'm betting it's a mix of on-the-fly looting and straight up hoarding. Something along the lines of most boys bring a couple of spare clips (because they don't have a massive amount of weapons to choose from) meaning that those who survive the first volley can spend a few seconds scrounging corpses to swap magazines, while a lot of deffskulls show up in looted wagons / buggies packed to the gills with spare ammo that their comrades help themselves to.
Probably my favorite option is mid-combat mercantilism. With the Squigbuggy setting precedence as an in-combat meals-on-wheels service, I can see some enterprising Badmoons showing up with a bunch of spare ammo and then charging extortionist prices to sell them under fire. Not like teef are in short supply, given all the boys can just bash their dead mate's head for a few spares.
In terms of non ammunition related stuff, orks are just orks. They're openly stated to happily eat the dead on the campaign, and readily eat their own dead (or the weaker fights amongst them) if there aren't enough enemy dead. Vehicles and spare parts are looted and hammered into shapes as needed; Meks are (again, according to lore) scrappy and resourceful enough to straight up make workshops under fire that they can ply their trade on the front lines. When it comes to more exotic elements such as fuel or explosive primer.. Well there's a squig for that, and the orks bring their ecosystem with them.
It may have been discribed loosely in waagh da orks and codices/campaign books, but there was never a straight up article fixing it in a cannon manner ones and for all.
First, what do we could logistics?
Ferrying all necessary goods needed to fight, to the good unit, and in the necessary quantities, so they are always combat effective.
Then, why do orks necessarly have got logisitcs logicwise?
Because burning though grenades, ammo and all stuff basically is incredibly quivk even with enforced discipline and restrictions, so no ressuply means you've lost because you won't be able to overcome whatever challenge you face with you're bare hands and choppas, even being an ork.
The hoarding/they bring only what they can carry falls apart if you have any experience or knowledge about military manouevres: vehicles must be refilled every day or so more often than not, ammunition can be as qucik as a few minutes to be fired through (from reports from our soldiers in Mali).
These two examples by itself would mean that an ork army would be probably be combat ineffective on any given sector within, say, a few hours of combat tops. Combat on large scale is not like tabletop: not one of engagment, but even overcoming a Guard position in 15 minutes, you will need many mor emedical/ammunition/fuel supplies to hold back any possible counter attack, push onwards, or be redirected anywhere else. And hoarding won't come in that handy if airstrike or artillery pound your position right afterwards.
However, regarding orks themselves, what do we know:
Ork bosses are lazy and don't care about logisitcs.
Orks are tribal and function as a collection of smaller warbands and tirbes.
Ork are individualistic and long for success and becoming the biggest and badest.
Orks have slaves, vehicles and meacnics that can do the job.
Orks skills at warfare are engrained into their DNA.
Tying these facts about orks and the logic of logistics as described above, it is reasonnable, I think, to think of ork logisitcs like this:
First logistic line will be organised on a warvband or tribe base, with the boss competing to be the baddest probably bullying a mek and his grots to ferry him all he needs by needs of grot carts, truks, or whatever they can think of. Of course, since mek's wallet trhive on selling war goods, we can assume they won't be to reluctant about this as long as they get paid their teef.
This leads to ork logistics probably being messy and inconsistent because they are what they are and won't go into in depth planning, but they sure will instinctively have braod methods they will use to make sure they can carry the fight on.
Second line logistics are the roks, in my opinion, and the field stockpiles and deposits.
In the first case, it is stressed both in Armaggedon and The Red waaagh how they act as forward bases to resupply orks by being repurposed as settlements once they hit the ground. They can provide repair workshops and forward factories, field hospitals and deposits, from which tribe to tribe ferrying can be carried out or rotation to ressuply can be set in motion.
Stockpiles can be either part of said rock, or, as the orks are pretty adpatble and not to fussy about their living and stocking condition, be as good as a hole in the ground or a corrugated metal roof. Again, this can be where the ferrying begins.
From this close to the line forward settlements and rocks, the orks can sustain themselves with food. It's pretty easy for them because as long as they settle anywhere they will bring in their simbiotic ecosystem along with them: squigs and fungi will grow and do the trick, plus eating the deceased if food becomes scarce.
To feed these would be logistical platforms, a more or less consistent dual stream would go in and out: one to bring loot and transfer it to heavier facilities to the rear, if any avid mek gets his pawns on it, while the other stream will be manufactured goods ready to get back into the fray.
Third lines of logisitc would finally be the biggest settlements, if the orks are in defensive position, holding their planet or say a fort they have built. In that case, it's pretty straight forward, as every production facility needed will be readily available, as long as loot and extraction (mostly for fuel, for example) of necessary ressources keep coming.
Hoarding only truly comes in to play in the end of a campaign or major engagment, where the eney would have to lick it's wound and let the orks alone enough time to actually proceed with the looting and sending to the rear (read: trading of said loot), but as soon as they have a time window to loot, it'll be a vital part of the campaign to them, providing most of the raw ressources to keep production afloat.
I'll keep medecine away here, because really, between doks coming in to do surgery in the thick of battle, and those who get their grots to retrive patients any time and bring them back for taking care, i'd presume it is another chain outside of the first one for goods and supplies.
They're you go, I maybe didn't went into every bit but I think that's enough of a wall of text at once
In summary: they would be logistics, but in a tribe to tribe ferrying organised according to layered, instinctive procedures, directly tied to ork economy.
Orks don't rely on cottage industry after a certain point, they create and/or capture large factory complexes and resource extraction facilities to mass produce gear (to Ork standards- it won't be terribly standardised and will likely be "kustomised" heavily by whoever gets their hands on it). Slave labour is used to man this- It is unusual for Orks to exterminate civilian populations in places they capture as they rely on these slaves for production. These production centres can be on entirely-separate planets to the frontline - like Scalex VI supplying Waaagh! Wazdakka, or behind the frontline on the same world- like the captured Hives Tempestora and Acheron on Armageddon during the 3rd War.
In summary: they would be logistics, but in a tribe to tribe ferrying organised according to layered, instinctive procedures, directly tied to ork economy.
This broadly tallies with my thoughts for large Ork forces (for me, anything of tribe size or larger- single warbands will operate at the local level in a similar manner as feral Orks).
I think some posters are assuming a simplicity in large Ork forces that is not supported in the lore (but is how small Ork forces operate). It is well established that Ork society grows instinctively more complex as the numbers of Orks increase- we see this in social organisation with increasing layers of hierarchy and the appearance of oddboyz and subkulturs, we see this in technology level, and we see it in complexity of strategy and tactics (partly enabled by the first two). It is entirely consistent that Ork industry and logistics also grow in complexity alongside this. I don't think individual Orks think much about any of the above, it is simply programmed into them at an instinctual level- a warboss doesn't have to instruct a dok to start a field hospital, it just happens. Likewise, the warboss won't be thinking about logistics, he will just beat the gak out of his mekboyz and grotz if there isn't enough ammo nearby to grab.
I like the idea of grot carts, and I'm sure a dizzying variety of solutions appear. However, I have found some images of GW conversions for cargo trukks:
I also found this snippet in the 3rd edition Ork codex, which describes grots being forced to do the logistics work:
Putting the above together, and thinking about the Ork reliance on slave labour, both gretchin and enslaved aliens (such as humans), probably the real overseers of Ork logistics operations (in conjuction with Meks doing production and maintenance) is a type of oddboy specifically for managing slaves- runtherds!
I suspect there are baggage trains or convoys connecting production centres and stockpiles behind the lines to forward ammo dumps and camps. The convoys are probably majority crewed by gretchin and captured alien slaves, with at least one runtherd keeping them in line. Larger convoys may have a small mob of boyz attached as enforcers and guards, probably ladz that pissed off the boss in some way and got sent off as punishment (it is established that unpopular jobs get assigned as punishment to boyz out of favour with the boss).
I feel our two posts combined would be a quite apt answer, i'm happy
I think your bit about runtherds being the base on which ork logistic would work is probably true, as said, since grots will operate most logistical machinery, shuffle stockpiles to find the useful bitz, and do the charging/discharging operation of any means they crewed to bring supplyes... Yeah, runtherds overseer are probably one of the most vital part of this machinery. Meks will still hold ex aequo first place I think, or close behind, as they actually provide a good part of the supply and their maintenanced and repurpose loot.
Flinty wrote: So space magic. For scavenging to be effective for even a fraction of their sustenance they need to be able to convert what they find or can be exposed to into energy and biomass. The background has them basically as the most pervasive species in the galaxy, so they have to be able to do that in a wide range of environments. If squigs are living in the latrines, then there must be sufficient materials in the ork effluent for the squigs to be absorbing that wasn’t absorbed by the Orks themselves. But in order for those squigs to form a major part of ork diet then the ork need to be eating loads of stuff that they themselves can’t be using. It just boggles my brain and I have difficulty in believing how scavenging and cottage industries can support industrialised warfare.
Greenskins are described as being a symbiotic combination of animal and a component that is akin to a fungus or algae (but probably doesn't quite fit into either as an engineered symbiote). The algal/fungal component is conserved through all Orkoid variants. It can almost certainly produce energy from a wide variety of sources. Given this accounts for the green skin of most Orkoids, I think a green, algal symbiote of a species engineered to be a survivor-warrior species can almost certainly photosynthesise as one source of energy. It is likely they can also unlock various forms of chemical energy in the environment, and fix nutrients from various atmospheres. I highly suspect that Orks are in a minority in Ork society (based on relative growth rates, the timed appearance of different Orkoids, and the increasing needs of the larger forms), being outnumbered by various runts, squigs, and particularly by general Orkoid "mycelium" (for want of a better word)- the mobile Orkoid forms almost seem to be the equivalent of mushrooms fruited from a static network of Orkoid material. The material is described as noxious to humans, even in small feral settlements such as the settlement in the depths of Hive Acheron travelled through by Lieutenant Kage and Colonel Schaeffer.
Was there bitz and pizzas in the war of the beast, where da orks were shipping humies out for lunch on a industrial scale?
Might also be a Cain on, where he finds a human slave, who made ammo.
All fell under the purview of a runt herder, Or what ever the planetary or galactic version is called.
Maybe the main thing that is missing from the published lore is just the sheer number of grots, squigs and slaves that become the basis of a decent Waargh. the orks on the tabletop are just the most frontline of troops, and nothing is really said about the billions of second line, garrison and internal security/oppression forces that would be needed to keep the system working. All of them apparently working on an instinctual level to go in the same general direction, but sufficiently antagonistic with all the other parts of the society around them that its funny.
By comparison to the other factions, Imperial background is clear about the vast effort put into gathering resources and supporting manufacturing and supply lines. This basically applies to Chaos, Tau and Votann forces as well.
Eldar get around it a bit by having them literally magic up their wargear from the warp
Genestealers are parasitical, while Tyranids are quite well described I think.
GW's primary focus is on selling models for battles, so they don't give much thought to logistics. I think there were some board games back in the day that had rules for supply, so the designers were aware of it.
I think it is clear that orks do have a logistics system capable of supporting massive operations, but I think it is also true that those in charge of it are somewhat resentful about being kept away from the fighting. This allows savvy opponents to target ork logistics, which are likely more vulnerable to disruption.
(Warboss Grab'nlug Thrakazug of the Deffskullz punches Chrispy out, takes over keyboard)
Oi! Wot's vis den? Yoo oomies iz all gobbin like we's oll Blood Axes or sumfing! We's gonna take yer stuff, an dat's oll dere iz ta it!
(Marches off in a huff, Chrispy gets back up in dazed state)
Okay, first: Ow!
Second, Orks in all their forms are basically the stand-ins for Viking raiders (Horned helmets, drinking, fighting, etc) and one thing I learned in Archeology is Vikings were very efficient when it came to moving around. To the point they don't leave much trash laying around to show they were there! Found the New World and need building supplies? you have a boat- which is timber and nails. Not liking the area? Your house was a boat at one time, and so can be again.
So it stands to reason Orks would have their usual "Brutal kunnin" when it comes to resources. Like the fact grotz and snotties are not only baseline workers, but food as well. Any tool can and will be a weapon in ork hands (Really would like to see after market bitz of spanner wrench choppas). The scrapjet dragsta is the best example: Jet won't fly anymore? Put wheels on it!
One of the reasons I really like the Orks is this very resourcefulness. Where none of us would think to put a rocket on a pole for a hammer, the Orks can and do use it. And in real life, that would be extremely stupid; but because it's them- it works, is what it comes down to.
Hope you're recovering from that hit, man, an ork is mean
Really, I think ork logistics CAN be disrupted realtivly easily because they'll use conventional means, can be easily drawn to a fight even if they're not supposed to get involved, and well, it is not beyond logic that any ork kept away to help runthreds oversee it will take advantage. That just too sad that Boss Bonecracka won't get that pile of ammo, right, but you know what, I'll take care of his Boyz once his dead.
However, you rightly point out how adaptable their means of transportation would be. And I think we'll all agree: no terrain, no environment will ever prevent the ORKS from finding a way to ferry their stuff around. That goes into the ork advantage of being able to thrive anywhere.
Of course, this is all part of what makes Orks such a great part of the background.
In terms of overseers for Grots and other slaves? It’s quite possibly Yoofs and Old Orks put in charge whilst there’s a battle on, as part of a rites of passage and passing on Da Old Wayz.
Plus I dare say there’ll always be a number of Boyz hurt badly enough that whilst they will recuperate, it’s gonna take a bit before they’re fully combat ready. Kicking Grots around is probably a better use of such Boyz than just lounging around,
You say this as if being amputated of both legs would be hurt enough to stay away from a good brawl. Silly umie!
Yet while I don't think the lore mentiened those hurt boyz you talk about, logic dictates that yes, the boss will probably have then shuffle stuff around rather than lose his (limited) patience waiting for them to hop their way forward on one foot.
Found this snippet whilst going through the Sanctus Reach lore:
Grot carts confirmed! In this case, large ones towed by killa kans. I think this is further evidence that Ork slavers/runtherds are the backbone of Ork logistics in the same way Meks are the backbone of Ork industry (albeit hordes of grots get forced to do the heavy lifting!).
Killa kans being used as salvage gear to tear out useful loot and transport heavy loads is also interesting. Makes them a sort of equivalent to Sentinel powerlifters.
Loving this thread! Never given much thought to this aspect before, its giving me heaps of modelling ideas.. Perhaps I'll still do an Ork warband at some point, with plenty of this logistics side represented.. Especially love the idea of an "ammo shop on wheels" supplying the army on the tabletop
Oh that's cool. This is truly one of those great topic that help you dive in crunchy details of the lore and that's so sweet!
I was about to propose deffdread lifters but killa kans are more apt because an ork in a 3 meters killing machine armed to the teef probably won't listen to "get that crate over there and put it in the truck".
However, meks dont fear technology, and I wonder: are there instances of ork robots? Like full, true robots?
In which case I'll bet they would do some to take care of stupidly annoying stuff like moving crates around.
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tauist wrote: Loving this thread! Never given much thought to this aspect before, its giving me heaps of modelling ideas.. Perhaps I'll still do an Ork warband at some point, with plenty of this logistics side represented.. Especially love the idea of an "ammo shop on wheels" supplying the army on the tabletop
Such an original theme!
Actually, in one of our campaigns, I housruled an Imperial guard's signals regiment, which had extra rules in game to call down artillery/air supports, and provide order bonuses at longer ranges, while getting equipment restrictions.
tauist wrote: Loving this thread! Never given much thought to this aspect before, its giving me heaps of modelling ideas.. Perhaps I'll still do an Ork warband at some point, with plenty of this logistics side represented.. Especially love the idea of an "ammo shop on wheels" supplying the army on the tabletop
Hear me out.
Grots. On bicycles. With ammo in the front basket and draped around their weedy shoulders. Like a stereotypical French Onion Seller that I’m not entirely convinced ever actually existed in real life.
I loved how in previous editions, the Big Mek for the Deathskulls could wound a vehicle while he repaired another. Basically, just sending da boyz over for spare parts. I really hope w/e the Ork codex comes out they'll put in the clan roolz. I chose Deathskulls in 3rd not only for the blue paint scheme, but because of the looted vehicles (which I know got a bit overpowered, but are YOU going to keep an ork from a Basilisk gun?).
And squigs. Don't forget the squigs- which do pretty much anything, from food, to ammo, to any number of things. I think the amount of beetle species is only slightly smaller than squig species.
tauist wrote: Loving this thread! Never given much thought to this aspect before, its giving me heaps of modelling ideas.. Perhaps I'll still do an Ork warband at some point, with plenty of this logistics side represented.. Especially love the idea of an "ammo shop on wheels" supplying the army on the tabletop
Hear me out.
Grots. On bicycles. With ammo in the front basket and draped around their weedy shoulders. Like a stereotypical French Onion Seller that I’m not entirely convinced ever actually existed in real life.
A yeah actually I read about it, thanks for reminding me. I don't care this ceased to exist in the transition to 3rd edition, into my head canon you go.
The beauty of it all is that nothing stops you from mounting making the grot of your dream, let's get get to the workbench Doc!
I confirm I never ever in my life saw any onion seller on a bicycle btw
Ooh, tinboyz! How did I ever miss something this awesome?!
These had rules in Rogue Trader? I needs to find em..
And dok, as much as I like the idea of cycling grots, I'm not sure how to make models like that, whereas building a buggy or a trukk with a bunch of ammo crates on it is quite feasible and the bitz for such a thing easy to come by..
A-ha! Shoulda known they were in Ere We Go. Orks were propa ladz back then.. I mean, you cannot exactly field a Blood Axe warband consisting of a single crazed Boss kommandeering an army of beakie mocking tinboyz kontrolled by mekaniaks in 10th edition, now can you..
Gert wrote: I think people are confusing logistics with industry.
Industry the Orks do shockingly well. They can churn out guns, ammo, and vehicles at breakneck speeds and it (usually) works as intended. They have an entire genetic subspecies with a genius intellect that can create marvels of technology from the simplest of parts.
They don't however, have a capacity for logistics. There is no supply corps for the Orks and they don't have any storage facilities beyond "We put da gunz there and da Squigz there". At best any transports might be used for ferrying Loot and Gubbins back to whatever camp has been set up, if that original camp is even returned to in the first place.
Fair, though I'd still argue that orks, in the way they're written in wider fluff, probably have more logistical abilities than might be expected. As others have said, the larger a Waaagh! gets the more complex it becomes, even adopting large-scale production after a certain point. While ork boyz are unlikely to be able to carry out more complex tasks than your average Millwall fan, and you certainly couldn't base any kind of supply organisation on them, there are millions of Grots who can carry out these functions and a whole host of Runtherds to act as a kind of heavily-scarred managerial caste.
A point on Warbosses in particular - I think the way a lot of the fluff's written obviously emphasises their dull, brutish, "orky" sides, but there's also a lot of stuff (like others have posted) that suggests they tend to consider the finer details of conquest such as resupply etc. Their size and strength primarily makes them Da Boss, but there's also a helpfully large amount of kunnin' in it as well.
Granted, they're probably leaving it to the Meks and Runtherds to sort out "dat uvver stuff," but it doesn't mean they don't consider it. The best Oddboyz are worth a lot of teef, right? Stands to reason a Warboss looking for success would try and get the best he could, precisely so he doesn't *have* to think about these questions.
I've really enjoyed rereading Ere We Go, it sort of touches on the whole logistics side of things, with Death Skulls holding Orkshuns where all the bounty from a scrap is sold off to the highest bidder.. I'm getting slight Ferengi vibes from the Death Skulls clan now?
The picture this book draws is, Orks use teef and loot to cover most of their logistic challenges, Meks, docs and grots keep things going (and captured slaves too on larger capaigns). Recycling existing gear as much as possible. I especially love the way how their own casualties can be used as resources (loot their gear and teef for new stuff) hehehe!
Ork Teef are also explained as a self-sustaining economy.
Whilst the number of Boyz and thus Toof Donors is of course variable, the Teef themselves are biodegradable. The value of a given Toof is based on size and quality.
So even if you’ve hoarded Teef? They naturally decay, reducing in value compared to fresh Teef. This is described as helping manage inflation.
And of course as Ork Teef grow throughout their lives, no Ork is ever reduced to absolutely poverty for long, even if he’s not ‘ard enough to clobber someone else’s Teef out their gob.
Ah, yes, Teef as currency - probably not the most out-there bit of lore about the orks, depending on whether or not "it works because they think it does" is strictly canon or simply a way the Imperium tries to explain their weird technology, but it's gotta be up there!
Trade is trade. Any fiat currency establishes stricter rules of commerce, and more readily agreed value.
Newer, shinier Teef carrying a higher intrinsic value than older, duller Teef ensures hoarded wealth impacts less than new wealth.
It also makes sense when individual Orks are exactly creative. They can bring scrap to a Mek, but can’t make that scrap into something themself.
Mek is recompensed for his time, even if all the raw materials were also part of the overall trade. The more Teef you give him, the more of his time (in theory) you’re obtaining, and so the bigger the shooter.
And as big snazzy guns and ‘uge Choppas are set and agreed marks of success, you have a well motivated workforce, each wanting to own the biggest and snazziest.
Some will even go and buy their own, and not just mug you for yours.
really, considering they're engineered so, safe to say they probably never stopped to think wait, if I make it so all of my boyz are particularly well fed and give them all the biggest weapons as I have, they'll be that deadly.
Plus while might is right, they're not a hivemind as the needs so they'll need ways to regulate and organise life between individuals.
Their individualistic nature tends to have them compete to become the next boss and try to get the best gear and dishes out there, so having got an economy means all of this is possible for everyone, from the grot to the boy to the boss.
But since orks' life is warfare, logisitcs and economy are entertwined.
Plus, as hoarded Teef inherently lose value, there’s incentive to actually spend yer Teef.
1,000,000 Teef today may only be worth 100,000 Teef in a year. But a Kustom Shoota worth 1,000,000 Teef is still gonna be worth 1,000,000. And if it’s duff, you can always beat up the Mek and get a refund.
Teef. A fixed commodity of a kind of fixed scarcity.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Plus, as hoarded Teef inherently lose value, there’s incentive to actually spend yer Teef.
Which is better that way because while orks probably would take some pride in a big fat hut with trophies and expensive shootas all over the wall, living lives of warfare shorten them to a point were hoarding makes no sense anyway. Not like the orks are affected by it though, as, again, they don't really seem to care about making plan for the future and putting stuff aside for a retirement fund.
If you applied the Orky obsession with being ‘ard, their nobility cladding themself in ridiculous armour seems counterintuitive. But….it’s also a status symbol, a sign they acquired enough Teef, no doubt through beating things up, to buy the killiest and least practical of weapons.
Some want Mega Armour, some want a ded fast buggy, some want a Battle Fortress. What really matters is their signs of wealth, and therefore success on the battlefield. And if such showing off gets you in a ruck? A chance to literally show who’s Boss round here.
Yep! Really, orks are paradoxaly as free and indiviualistic as you can get in the version of the galaxy. And what to do with this sweet freedom? Brag and slap stuff obviously!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Plus, as hoarded Teef inherently lose value, there’s incentive to actually spend yer Teef.
Which is better that way because while orks probably would take some pride in a big fat hut with trophies and expensive shootas all over the wall, living lives of warfare shorten them to a point were hoarding makes no sense anyway. Not like the orks are affected by it though, as, again, they don't really seem to care about making plan for the future and putting stuff aside for a retirement fund.
Orks have no children, so there's no estate to pass on.
While they have many advantages, they have crippling disadvantages, which are pretty well-known. Being warriors is great, but they will fight each other as easily as anyone else.
They have the ability to create remarkably ingenious machines and are capable of advanced the logistics, but these are undermined by the fact that no one wants to be in the supply train. While other races might have a tangle at an intersection or some congestions, I can easily see to ork supply trains trying to use the same crossroad fighting each other to the death just for the fun of it. Indeed, it would be very "orky" to have line units short on ammo fall back to "sort out" the mess and get caught up in it.
Naturally the ork who started it would be legendary, especially if he won. That the front line caved in would soon be forgotten, because everyone would love the story of the angry runtherder who ended up wrecking two columns and then routing the 'Ard Boyz sent to kick his butt.
That's another reason why I think their logistics would be entangled with economy.
We know their logistics, for lack of being strictly formalised, work because they apparently can fight wars that drag for years. So some orks are doing the job along with grots etc. To me those are the oddboyz, specialy mekboyz, and some Boyz or nobz probably left behind to check.
What can make all of those stay, and thus make the supply chain work? Fear of reprisal and reef. Lots of reef.
If supplying X warband amounts to selling stuff to them the meks are going to get rich, the nob will take some of the stuff for himself, and the runtherd a solid reef refund for the grots that got rolled over in the attempt.
However there's still no guarantee the orks will actually think that's worth it and your scenario is 100% orky
A mob is a kid of fixed family unit. Provided no Boyz step particularly out of line, they’re in that mob for life, under the direction and protection of the resident Nob (who is of course simply the biggest and ‘ardest of that lot).
When the Nob is killed (in combat, a challenge, amusing and completely anticipated exploding Bog trick, eaten by a Faceeater Squig), the successor typically comes from within the Mob itself, as a quick scrap settles the new pecking order.
At that point, the new Nob will claim the old one’s bits and gubbins. If the Mob was already suffering depredations and was under strength, they might simply be absorbed into another larger mob, who again will nick all the best gear for themselves, or at least their Nob.
Voss wrote: Its weird that they even need a currency or economy.
If your ladz don't eat, they can't fight. If they don't have gunz, they can't fight. Orks don't do much that isn't fighting, so... yeah.
Having 'em be armed and fed is part of being a boss, and that's why you're raiding and getting grots and humies to make stuff, isn't it?
I'm sort of in two minds about Teef, tbh. A lot of the lore suggests orks also barter quite a bit, though obviously that wouldn't create ideal conditions for trade - how exactly does one decide how many pints of fungus beer a snazzwagon should cost, for instance? In this scenario, a commodity that can be universally used to represent the prices of other commodities is quite handy in that circumstance.
That said, if food and the basics aren't really an issue for orks and they tend to scrounge/improvise a lot of their weaponry, then presumably the need to supply all your needs through purchasing stuff you yourself don't make doesn't apply, in which case ork Teef don't really occupy the same niche that currencies we're familiar with do.
I guess, ultimately, it comes down to whether the fluff indicates that individual orks are largely self-sufficient (albeit in a barebones way, like the peasants of olde), or whether they're more like modern societies, where most everything you need to have to buy but the quality of that stuff tends to be higher.
As for them having an economy in general, that's not as hard to wrap your head around. All an economy is, when you get down to it, is the way society organises the production and distribution of the stuff people want/need. Any sufficiently large population's going to develop certain forms of economic activity in order to meet its needs, and I guess the orks are no exception given the lore and this thread!
A shiny shoota with extra loud bits is valued more than a standard shoota.
A buggy with a dead nice red paint job is valued more than a buggy without a red paint job, indeed a red paint job can be an after-market mod, increasing its value.
There is still barter “trade you this ‘Umie weapon for that Buggy”, but Teef provide a baseline of value. So if the capture weapon is a functioning Battle Cannon, that would be widely agreed to be worth in the region of X Teef. The buggy might also have a commonly accepted value of around Y Teef.
It’s worth noting coinage and thus fiat currency is the hallmark of actual civilisation. An economic base which helps rationalise the value of all other items.
Wiki wrote: The Mesopotamian civilization developed a large-scale economy based on commodity money. The shekel was the unit of weight and currency, first recorded c. 3000 BC,[dubious – discuss] which was nominally equivalent to a specific weight of barley that was the preexisting and parallel form of currency.
A shiny shoota with extra loud bits is valued more than a standard shoota.
A buggy with a dead nice red paint job is valued more than a buggy without a red paint job, indeed a red paint job can be an after-market mod, increasing its value.
There is still barter “trade you this ‘Umie weapon for that Buggy”, but Teef provide a baseline of value. So if the capture weapon is a functioning Battle Cannon, that would be widely agreed to be worth in the region of X Teef. The buggy might also have a commonly accepted value of around Y Teef.
It’s worth noting coinage and thus fiat currency is the hallmark of actual civilisation. An economic base which helps rationalise the value of all other items.
Wiki wrote: The Mesopotamian civilization developed a large-scale economy based on commodity money. The shekel was the unit of weight and currency, first recorded c. 3000 BC,[dubious – discuss] which was nominally equivalent to a specific weight of barley that was the preexisting and parallel form of currency.
Sure, and it's clear that orks love a bit of flash - who amongst us doesn't, I suppose?
I guess what I'm thinking is whether or not ork society is dominated by commodity production, or whether large bits of it are arguably based on production for direct consumption rather than exchange. As you say, virtually every society in the real world develops coinage at a certain point because there's always scope for a bit of merchant-work given a certain level of productive activity, but there's a difference between coinage being used "at the margins" in order to sell/buy stuff produced in surplus or luxuries, and it being the primary lubricant in the economy as it is today.
It's interesting to consider that orks as written may really only need Teef for luxuries and not the basics - which would be quite fitting, really, as again a lot of ork kultur places a huge emphasis on showing off how 'ard and great you are!
That said, if food and the basics aren't really an issue for orks and they tend to scrounge/improvise a lot of their weaponry, then presumably the need to supply all your needs through purchasing stuff you yourself don't make doesn't apply, in which case ork Teef don't really occupy the same niche that currencies we're familiar with do.
I guess, ultimately, it comes down to whether the fluff indicates that individual orks are largely self-sufficient (albeit in a barebones way, like the peasants of olde), or whether they're more like modern societies, where most everything you need to have to buy but the quality of that stuff tends to be higher.
Orks have a couple of slave castes (grots and snotlings) to do the majority of economic production and activity. It is quite likely that orks largely just get waited on by the minions swarming around them for basic needs. These underlings (particularly grots) have a vested interest in keeping their masters happy, because they are on the menu themselves if they underperform!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s worth noting coinage and thus fiat currency is the hallmark of actual civilisation. An economic base which helps rationalise the value of all other items.
I think this is a very bold statement. Gift economies also function well in complex societies.
Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.
From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).
There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.
From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).
There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.
Apropos of nothing but I'm having the time of my life in this thread. Never has a bit of idle chatter about little plastic fellas felt so much like them Greek fellas debating out the mysteries of the universe
But as to this, I think Haighus has given us the solution to this above - it's true, I recall some fluff basically noting that most Boyz are pretty lazy when not actually fighting, but having large slave-classes to do all the work for you means that they don't really *have* to be energetic so long as you give the grotz a good thumpin' every now and again to show 'em who's boss.
In that sense, I guess orks are not self-reliant in the sense of providing everything they need themselves, nor do they work like peasants - as a family or communal unit to produce things that largely get consumed directly by said unit - but neither are they consuming entirely via commodity production either. Instead they just bully the grotz into making the basic stuff for them (occasionally eating the grotz, depending on) and anything more luxurious they trade for using Teef or very occasionally through bartering.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.
From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).
There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.
The logical conclusion is therefore that meks have a worse pain tolerance to compensate their increased dexterity. Would go some way to explaining why they respond to be beaten back into line by da boss...
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.
From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).
There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.
Apropos of nothing but I'm having the time of my life in this thread. Never has a bit of idle chatter about little plastic fellas felt so much like them Greek fellas debating out the mysteries of the universe
But as to this, I think Haighus has given us the solution to this above - it's true, I recall some fluff basically noting that most Boyz are pretty lazy when not actually fighting, but having large slave-classes to do all the work for you means that they don't really *have* to be energetic so long as you give the grotz a good thumpin' every now and again to show 'em who's boss.
In that sense, I guess orks are not self-reliant in the sense of providing everything they need themselves, nor do they work like peasants - as a family or communal unit to produce things that largely get consumed directly by said unit - but neither are they consuming entirely via commodity production either. Instead they just bully the grotz into making the basic stuff for them (occasionally eating the grotz, depending on) and anything more luxurious they trade for using Teef or very occasionally through bartering.
Hmm... in a way, Ork society is a bit like classical Spartan society. A comparitively-small warlike upper class that has the leisure time to devote to fighting, served by an abundant slave caste that does all the work to afford that leisure time for the upper class.
Meks, like other Oddboyz, are something of a protected class.
Even the most obtuse Warboss can appreciate the need for their boys to be well armed. And that means having Meks around.
As such, they’re described as having a bit more leeway, with their more eccentric efforts being seen as a good laugh (provided it happens to someone else). Provided whatever the Boss ordered more-or-less does what was promised? You’re pretty safe, even if his second in command was given some unexpected and highly experimental rocket legs you didn’t exactly explain how to safely operate.
The Meks need everyone else to bring them scrap and pay for their wares. Everyone else needs the Meks to keep the warband fighting. As such, they don’t see quite the same day to day personal violence as non-Oddboyz.
Hence a Big Mek is rarely a Warboss, but can be noticeably bigger than other Meks.
The usual punishment is exile, rather than death. Probably after a good kicking though.
Runtherdz ensure the overall running of Ork society by keeping the runts in line.
Doks do the patching up and help keep everyone more or less healthy.
Weird Boyz are actively shunned, because you’re only a moment over excitement away from others catching a nasty case of exploding head.
And so they all have their “except me” type cards which can shelter them from a certain amount of grief. Besides, catch a Mek or Painboy doing something naughty, and you can probably persuade a favour or what have you in return for not saying anything.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Apart from mekboyz, the average Ork is more or less stated to be idle when not buying stuff/eating/fighting.
From there, I'd say it is reasonable to assume Ork society is based around consumption rather than self reliance (as in, building your own stuff).
There was even a bit of lore, again from waaagh the orks are a transposed on from Warhammer battle, that proposed the idea that Ork nervous system is underdeveloped. This means far greater tolerance to pain than most races, but the flip side of the coin is that they are physically incapable of actually crafting stuff themselves as their ability for holding is severely limited.
The logical conclusion is therefore that meks have a worse pain tolerance to compensate their increased dexterity. Would go some way to explaining why they respond to be beaten back into line by da boss...
Nothing is said about this possibility as far as I am aware, but, it is true of the gretchins: hence why they can craft basic items, as they nonetheless lack true intelligence over more acute cunning.
So while it's not stated anywhere, this is a pretty reasonable leap of logic to me.
Some more interesting snippets from the Waaagh! Ghazghull supplement.
Firstly, this one is regarding Ghazghull's response to hit-and-run attacks from a Bad Moon Warlord whilst still on his homeworld of Urk, a backwater Ork world (so not much above feral Orks until after the events of this battle when Ghaz unified the world into a Waaagh!). Ghaz is obviously exceptionally gifted on a strategic and tactical level, but even the Bad Moons here are displaying a grasp of decent tactics beyond simply charging the enemy (hit-and-run against a superior-but-less-mobile enemy) and sufficient awareness of logistics to keep refuelling their battlewagons at supply dumps. At least until Ghaz targeted them and blew them up:
This next one is a solid example of enslaving humans and coopting human factories to produce Ork war materiel. In this case, Hive Volcanus in the Second War for Armageddon:
Thirdly, the last snippet relates to the discussion about Ork population growth and the resources that is based upon. Whilst I stand by my earlier point that Orkoid ecosystems can probably derive energy and biomass from a great variety of sources likely including photosynthesis, I think the following quote strongly suggests Orkoid ecosystems can also grow with energy from the Warp itself. I cannot see what else is likely to explain a population boom upon an ancient, lifeless space hulk that otherwise would not provide significant biomass. Orks are an intrinsically psychic race so this is plausible, especially for a Waaagh! currently travelling through the Warp where ork psychic activity will be at its strongest. Also references swarms of grots:
Some great finds here, I have to say! That last point is particularly interesting - it seems as if the larger the Waaagh! energy in an area (or, if you want to be boring in your terms, the larger the footprint of the collective ork psychic energy) the quicker the ork population grows.
That seems to me to imply a certain connection between warp energy and growth, as you say, although it's also possible that there are other things at play. Perhaps what's happening is that as orks spore, they also unwittingly "terraform" wherever they are so that it fits their needs - so even a place which appears relatively barren at first will soon be quite suitable to house a sizeable orkoid population within a generation or two. Perhaps the warp's role in that is to simply speed this process up a touch?
That thread's no longer a discussion, is it a lecture and I love it.
I skipped on the fact orks die if separated from their kin, although I've got the 3rd edition ork codex. Fascinating finding!
Regarding spore growth, maybe the waarp plays on spore releasing/ activating, helping them grow to maturity regardless of the environment through latent psychic means?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The waarp? Halfway between warp and waaagh, i'm leaving that typo
I skipped on the fact orks die if separated from their kin, although I've got the 3rd edition ork codex. Fascinating finding!
Regarding spore growth, maybe the waarp plays on spore releasing/ activating, helping them grow to maturity regardless of the environment through latent psychic means?
That codex has some great lore snippets, well worth a thorough read!
I suspect Orkoids generally need both favourable realspace environmental conditions (dank, shaded environments) and the psychic link with sufficient other orkoid matter nearby to form a viable early ecosystem (at least based on the theories of Anzion). However, the importance of the realspace environment may diminish as the psychic presence grows stronger, as seen on the space hulk quote above.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The waarp? Halfway between warp and waaagh, i'm leaving that typo
I'll give it a reread yeah, in fact i've got the 3rd, 4th, and 7th edition codices for orks. Well i've got like 80 percent of 3rd to 7th books prior to gathering storm
Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.
If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.
If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.
Tbh I was leaning this way myself. I do think it sounds like it plays a role to have access to the warp, but as an auxiliary process to the general ork spore cycle. Given the description of what Ghazghull and the Ladz went through in that text, it does seem like they got into a lot of scraps; orks spore massively when they die, iirc, though I can't remember which Codex that's stated in. If a load of them die but they win the fight overall, the mixture of sporing and Waaagh! energy increase from the confidence boost might result in a hell of a lot more orks than they started with.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.
If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.
My conclusion is more that the Warp is acting as the raw resources to build more Orks in the otherwise barren setting of a lifeless space hulk. There is going to be neglible biomass on the hull, so what is the Ork horde using to grow with? See Flinty's earlier queries about how Orkoid ecosystems actually sustain in otherwise inhospitable settings.
Undoubtedly the excitement of the Waaagh!, the constant fighting with daemons, and the preachings of Ghaz will have triggered the growth in population. But what is fueling it? Orkoid ecosystems would still need raw materials to grow if they were purely biological in the realspace sense. On a planet, this is simple- the natural resources of the planet can be used and fixed into Orkoid matter. But a lifeless space hulk is majority metal. Ergo, the Warp is likely providing raw material in a manner similar to wraithbone.
...similar to wraithbone, a highly-durable material used by another creation of the Old Ones. Hmm...
Dunno where this idea suddenly came from, but I now want a Frankenork, where a Painboy, tired of being clevver but weedy, steadily acquires “spare bitz” to build himself a bigger bod.
Of course, the final instalment, his bonce, would be in the hands of his ‘Loyal’ Grot Orderlies….
...similar to wraithbone, a highly-durable material used by another creation of the Old Ones. Hmm...
And wasn't the harnessing of the warp the big ace up the Old Ones' sleeves in their war against the Necrons, a war for which the orks may or may not have been originally created? Fellas, it's all coming together...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.
If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.
My conclusion is more that the Warp is acting as the raw resources to build more Orks in the otherwise barren setting of a lifeless space hulk. There is going to be neglible biomass on the hull, so what is the Ork horde using to grow with? See Flinty's earlier queries about how Orkoid ecosystems actually sustain in otherwise inhospitable settings.
Undoubtedly the excitement of the Waaagh!, the constant fighting with daemons, and the preachings of Ghaz will have triggered the growth in population. But what is fueling it? Orkoid ecosystems would still need raw materials to grow if they were purely biological in the realspace sense. On a planet, this is simple- the natural resources of the planet can be used and fixed into Orkoid matter. But a lifeless space hulk is majority metal. Ergo, the Warp is likely providing raw material in a manner similar to wraithbone.
...similar to wraithbone, a highly-durable material used by another creation of the Old Ones. Hmm...
I would lean on the other hand on the idea of either a trigger mecanism to boost spore reproduction or a warp vitamin helping the spore survive until they reahc maturity. So not the raw material but a useful help in development.
I'd say this because the orks are only latent psykers. That aligns perfectly with the idea that more ork equals more orks because they combine their latent psychic abilities to that end, unknowingly. If survival is compromised, as is the case in a barren space derelict, or if the fiht escalate enough, then uncounsciensly the orks would trigger their own magic, an effect of whcih could be to cause spore to survive and mature magically wit only the bare minimum biomass. In case of our derelicts or space hulks, the one the ork themselves brought with them.
But since it's not stated clearly to my knowledge i'm both feet in the realm of hypothesis.
Thinking about it, and unless I'm wrong, a Space Hulk is a mix of all kinds of things, right? Yeah, it's fused-up spaceships, but also small asteroids and other stuff - a mix of purely mechanical and "organic" stuff in the sense that soil is organic. If we assume that ork spores (like most moulds, as some bathrooms I've had the displeasure of visiting have shown) can grow in some pretty ludicrous places, it's possible that a Space Hulk isn't quite the hostile environment for them that it would be for a human group.
Yeah. Spacehulks are odd things. Yes they’re the decaying remains of space faring craft, but they’re so much more.
The bodies of the crews? Something gonna happen to them. And if it’s airtight where they died, you might get one of those bottle biome things going on, just on a bigger scale.
As someone currently battling damp and mildew in his home (coastal town, basement flat), that stuff is tenacious when left to its own devices.
Yey, though probably scarce at the scale of it, nonetheless their will be some biomass left to eat. But then the psychic abilities of the ork might kick in to boost the process, as psykers of other races may use biomancy. sorta
Depends entirely on how efficient the Ork biology is.
Astartes for instance are canonically noted as having a super efficient digestive system. Not only can they eat stuff that’d outright kill a baseline human in nasty ways? They don’t produce a huge amount of waste - though one presumes that varies depending on exactly what they’ve just scoffed. But for “prime cuts”, what we might get say, 2,000 calories out of? An Astartes might wring 3,000 calories out of through ruthless biological efficiency.
Orks may be the same, especially with a fungal and plant part able to presumably do some kind of photosynthesis.
YeeeMako wrote: Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.
Ork societies do not function because they do not exist. They work only so far as GW states that Orks exist across the galaxy, and that the race is capable of waging large scale warfare across interplanetary and interstellar distances.
Everything else is supposition on our part. There is probably more thought out into the issue in this thread than GW authors have ever put into it, even considering the 1st edition ork books
YeeeMako wrote: Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.
Ork societies do not function because they do not exist. They work only so far as GW states that Orks exist across the galaxy, and that the race is capable of waging large scale warfare across interplanetary and interstellar distances.
Everything else is supposition on our part. There is probably more thought out into the issue in this thread than GW authors have ever put into it, even considering the 1st edition ork books
I mean, yeah, obviously, but I'd also be the first to admit I like making daft jokes eh!
Astartes for instance are canonically noted as having a super efficient digestive system. Not only can they eat stuff that’d outright kill a baseline human in nasty ways? They don’t produce a huge amount of waste - though one presumes that varies depending on exactly what they’ve just scoffed. But for “prime cuts”, what we might get say, 2,000 calories out of? An Astartes might wring 3,000 calories out of through ruthless biological efficiency.
Orks may be the same, especially with a fungal and plant part able to presumably do some kind of photosynthesis.
There is a maximum efficiency that can be obtained though, and by the account above Ghaz's space hulk was practically bursting with orkoids by the time it arrived at Armageddon. That physical material has to have come from somewhere. Asteroids and other stuff included in the hulk could explain it. It is very dependent on what the hulk contained before it was captured.
Photosynthesis on a hulk travelling through the warp? I can't envisage there being a lot of sunlight. In addition, photosynthesis doesn't create something from nothing, it fixes gaseous oxygen and CO2 into sugar using sunlight as an energy source. It is the oxygen, carbon, nitrogen etc. that living beings actually consist of (including orkoids as far as we are aware) that is not likely to be hugely abundant on an ancient, derelict space hulk in the warp. There are other possible options- I suppose one of the ships could be a bulk carrier full of nutrient gruel previously headed to a hive world or something, or as mentioned the asteroids could contain enough elements needed for organic life and orkoid matter may be able to fix them into organic material (something orkoid matter is likely able to do).
My thoughts were that perhaps orkoid material can do a kind of... warposynthesis, using warp energy to power the growth. The less bizarre form would be substituting light in processes fixing oxygen and carbon in a similar manner to photosynthesis. The more exciting form would be creating fresh organic orkoid matter whole cloth from warp energy.
Edit: to clarify, this is all theorycrafting based on what has been published. It isn't even confirmed that Orks can photosynthesise to my knowledge.
YeeeMako wrote: Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.
Ork societies do not function because they do not exist. They work only so far as GW states that Orks exist across the galaxy, and that the race is capable of waging large scale warfare across interplanetary and interstellar distances.
Everything else is supposition on our part. There is probably more thought out into the issue in this thread than GW authors have ever put into it, even considering the 1st edition ork books
Fun to discuss though
I'd say there is a mix of obscure sources, extrapolation, and supposition.
You don’t need Actual Sunlight for photosynthesis though? By my limited understanding you just need the right wavelengths of light (no I could tell you what those are).
Add in atmospheric nutrients like yeast and gubbins, and Orks being made from Space God Magic, and who truly knows.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You don’t need Actual Sunlight for photosynthesis though? By my limited understanding you just need the right wavelengths of light (no I could tell you what those are).
Add in atmospheric nutrients like yeast and gubbins, and Orks being made from Space God Magic, and who truly knows.
I mean, there's such a thing as void whales in 40K's version of the galaxy, clearly what's possible according to the rules of the setting is quite wide! I think all of this stuff plays a factor - who's to say what an ork could make use of, even if sunlight wasn't available, given that they were designed to be tough as nails?
In many ways, they're like the Xenomorph, if the Xenomorph could be found regularly at Millwall match-days. No matter what, you're always in danger of underestimating them.
YeeeMako wrote: Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.
Ork societies do not function because they do not exist. They work only so far as GW states that Orks exist across the galaxy, and that the race is capable of waging large scale warfare across interplanetary and interstellar distances.
Everything else is supposition on our part. There is probably more thought out into the issue in this thread than GW authors have ever put into it, even considering the 1st edition ork books
Which is part of the enjoyment for me: have a fun chat about suppositions we can make from a partially fleshed out fiction. But we obviously overthink it if we compare to GW writers . But hey, makes me happy, so I don't care!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Good point on the void whales. Clearly, there are ways to feed in the void apparently. maybe the orks master one of those/ or it has been encoded into them.
YeeeMako wrote: Aye, although unlike the Spartans, ork societies seem to be actually functional. I guess, contrary to popular belief, it *is* easy being green.
Ork societies do not function because they do not exist. They work only so far as GW states that Orks exist across the galaxy, and that the race is capable of waging large scale warfare across interplanetary and interstellar distances.
Everything else is supposition on our part. There is probably more thought out into the issue in this thread than GW authors have ever put into it, even considering the 1st edition ork books
Whilst far from immune from edition revision? Orky Kultur has remained mostly intact.
It’s something that’s been added to (getting physically larger the more they fight and survive most notably, and their reproductive cycle), but very, very little has been actively contradicted since those hallowed pages were first laid down. And so…..remain current!
Yey that's the spirit, although the reproduction method in my opinion lorewise changes a lot of things, it's so much more effective.
But 99% is still canon, even if sometimes orverlooked like the tinboyz.
What it does like no other publication since, is really set the tone, spirit. Make you feel the orkness, in short. For that, it is head and shoulders above other publications about orks to me.
Well, they've never said that Tinboyz *aren't* a thing, right? They've just never mentioned them since - and as the Squats prove, even death may not turn out to be quite the permanent thing it's held to be, eh!
Clapped out old Orks wandered off. Wild Boyz found the main tribe. And that’s as much as Orks cared.
Fun thing? Both could be true!
It’s not like Orks have any interest in taking a census. Any spores developing within the established community grow up in a certain concentration of Orks, and their peculiar psychic gestalt.
Those spored from Old Orks wandering off into the wilderness would only have had each other as their gestalt, and so didn’t absorb the same type of psychic signature.
Clapped out old Orks wandered off. Wild Boyz found the main tribe. And that’s as much as Orks cared.
Fun thing? Both could be true!
It’s not like Orks have any interest in taking a census. Any spores developing within the established community grow up in a certain concentration of Orks, and their peculiar psychic gestalt.
Those spored from Old Orks wandering off into the wilderness would only have had each other as their gestalt, and so didn’t absorb the same type of psychic signature.
Never looked at it this way. But. that's suddenly even better
Y'know, on the track of logistics/economy... I think we've pretty well thrashed out how the orks manage things on a planetary scale, but is there any fluff we know of that sheds light on how they might operate (or fail to operate) multiplanetary empires? How does the Overfiend run Octarius, for example? Do they just leave relatively trusted stooges in charge and hope for the best, or is there a way a Warboss/Warlord can run these things more directly?
Actually you said it, I think they was some insights in the war for octarius (the fun one, with orks and nids). But unfortunatly mostly relations wioth freebooterz and hierarchy if i'm not mistaken. Someone to confirm or correct?
Well, I feel we’ve comfortably established Orks establish pretty robust supply lines and infrastructure without ever really thinking about it. It’s all done on instinct.
For interstellar? Pretty much the same, but with added piracy against literally anyone and anything that looks good for a fight, or has plenty of stuff to nick, ideally both.
Also, from my personal 40K inspired playlist? Some very, very silly Oi!, essentially punk music for Football Hooligans, which always puts me in an Orky frame of mind. Just adjust the lyrics a bit to make it really Orky.
Certainly “call in the army” bit for Orks would be “this is a really good scrap, let everyone know!” rather than “well this get out of hand”
Ahh, now there's a fair shout. Always turned to Motorhead for my orky mood music, myself, but I can appreciate that Oi! fits the bill just as well!
And yeah, I think we've established that they do the basics out of instinct - but there's fluff about, say, Ghazghull leaving trusted lieutenants behind on certain worlds he wants held, and that presumably is a fairly conscious choice. After all, you've got to figure out who's least likely to backstab you once you're off battering the 'umies elsewhere, right?
I think that might be more ensuring the world is held his way.
I mean, deposit a couple hundred million Orks and their gear on a given planet, and you can sure they’ll be sufficient nuisance to keep it from doing anything else than defending itself.
But….to ensure some master plan of logistics is kind of, more or less,roughly adhered to? Put someone well ‘ard who understands da plan in charge, confident they’re both ‘ard and clevva enough to maintain position and deliver the goods.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
YeeeMako wrote: Ahh, now there's a fair shout. Always turned to Motorhead for my orky mood music, myself, but I can appreciate that Oi! fits the bill just as well!
And yeah, I think we've established that they do the basics out of instinct - but there's fluff about, say, Ghazghull leaving trusted lieutenants behind on certain worlds he wants held, and that presumably is a fairly conscious choice. After all, you've got to figure out who's least likely to backstab you once you're off battering the 'umies elsewhere, right?
For me it’s always Oi! over metal for Orks. It just has that joyous edge to it.
Problem with photosynthesis thesis is: Fungus doesn't like UV- and it's not a plant. GW put the whole "Orks have chlorophyll somewhere in their blood" to explain why their skin is green. Tolkien described orc skin as pallid or some as blackish- and he got the idea from the epic of Beowulf. When listing Grendel's family tree, he is said to be related to Ogres, Ettins and "Orcneas". Now, being European, one might think of Orkney island- but "-neas" was just a plural msuffix, much like we'd use an S. The Roman god Orcus was a god of death, so for years it was interpreted that Orcs were big strong ghouls or zombies. Then, Tolkien flipped the idea and said they ate the dead, but were alive (and twisted elves, in his mythology).
Went and did a bit of searching: you have Spiderman to thank for orcs turning green. When the villain Green Goblin came out, what with the confusion of calling Orcs "Goblins" in the Hobbit, all got lumped together and got green skin. Remember Sam and Frodo get confused for Goblins when they're in orcish armor- there's a suspension of disbelief for stupid orcs/ gobbos but "Oi! Dey's not green like us!.. But dey's stil orcs- deys wearing ar armoor.." would REALLY be stretching it. So, LOTR Greenskins are not.
I apologize for my need to be nerdy and possibly derailing the topic and/ or going off on a tangent.
Thanks for the tangent, to be fair the only other non GW ORKS I deal with are King's boutny, were there green but unremarkable (the game is btw) or Elder scrolls, where they are not so Green as dark skinned in Skyrim (and goofy green in oblivion because you know. Graphics of those blessed times).
On delegating to an Ork a whole planetary operation.
If I were da boss, since I'm da clevvest 'ere obviously, I'd be worried that whenever I come back to see how the tasks I gave over to him are going, I'm actually welcomed by blasta salvos in my general direction. So as usual, but on a bigger scale, it comes down to whether or not the boss is able to assert his position by bashing ambitious would be bosses over the head.
Problem with photosynthesis thesis is: Fungus doesn't like UV- and it's not a plant. GW put the whole "Orks have chlorophyll somewhere in their blood" to explain why their skin is green.
Well, strictly speaking Orkoids are not fungal. They are aliens with a symbiotic make up between an animal-like component and a fungal/algal like component. They won't fit into any of our current Earth domains, being engineered aliens. See the quote below:
I think the phrase "plant-like" is particularly pertinent. Orks seem to be a little bit like lichen.
I mean, deposit a couple hundred million Orks and their gear on a given planet, and you can sure they’ll be sufficient nuisance to keep it from doing anything else than defending itself.
But….to ensure some master plan of logistics is kind of, more or less,roughly adhered to? Put someone well ‘ard who understands da plan in charge, confident they’re both ‘ard and clevva enough to maintain position and deliver the goods.
True, true, and obviously orks don't *always* backstab each other, otherwise you couldn't explain how it is that Warbosses are consistently able to build (relatively) stable retinues. Presumably a lot of the Ladz figure that sooner or later a stray round will improve their career prospects for them - no ork dies of old age, as they say - so why bother doing the hard work yourself when you need to be ready for the post-krump succession scrap?
I guess we could speculate then that it sort of works like... "I'm leavin' you in charge ere, I need Lotz of gunz and tanks and such, get 'em to me as quick as yer can and don't muck about wiv it, put 'em on this moon roughly at this time, uvverwise do what yer like" - crude but potentially effective.
(fair point on the musical accompaniment, though I'd make the potentially controversial argument that Motorhead's live-fast-die-young stuff and rhythm style makes them more akin to hard rock than metal and therefore a bit more suitable - but I appreciate that's strictly speaking not a point based on Warhammer lore!)
Orks aren’t without treachery, that’s true. But generally speaking, so long as you’re leading the lads into decent fights, with plenty of loot? Your position is fairly safe.
That’s true for a Warboss, all the way down to a Nob leading a Mob. Provided you’re seen to be a strong leader, you’re less likely to risk someone wanting to replace you, because they’ll lack the popular support.
The trick with running planetary scale underlings is that while you can easily bash that petulant nob over the head if he starts being too fussy to your taste, you can't do it as easily when exacting your legitimate violence requires you to actually travel back to that world were said underlung is acting dumb, then descend on said world, and finally stump him good.
By the time the boss is aware, goes its way there, makes planetfall, the reluctant self proclaimed boss has had plenty of time to prepare himself.
But I guess that's precisely why very few orks actually make system scaled empires. Most of which we see in the lore are actually at war with someone out there and cohesion is achieved through the common goal of thumping that someone - in short, it takes a waaagh to maintain a cohesive ork empire.
I think that's the key to all of this, fluff-wise - when things are going well and the orky cause is in the ascendant, things like logistics, economy and social cohesion tend to work (relatively) smoothly. When there's difficulties, or the boyz get the feeling that maybe the big boss doesn't *actually* have a cunning plan to get into ever-bigger fights, well, that's when it starts to break down.
Just gave 3rd edition ork codex, something made me tick, it's that full fledged ork boyz need a year or so to be born, in essence.
While it's obviously stellar compared to humans or eldars, I feel it suddenly make orks way less of a tide somehow. I mean.
Or more correctly, sounds like an ork invasion can actually be easily defeated in its first year, beyond that point population ill start growing exponentially and continuously.
However, since grots are the main orkpower of ork logistics, and those are much faster to ermerge, contrary to imperial or tau logistics or whatever, the orks are probably never going to lack manpower.
The Imperial Armour book 8 was entirely about Imperium forces raiding an Ork held world to disrupt their logistics (including blowing up a fuel storage area) and assassinate their best Mek. Has some details into how an Ork Waagh functions logistically.
Raid on kastorel novem right? I remember having listened to it read by aborder prince but I mostly recall it being about Ork industry. I'll have to give it a new listen will on my very last week on duty...
YeeeMako wrote: I think that's the key to all of this, fluff-wise - when things are going well and the orky cause is in the ascendant, things like logistics, economy and social cohesion tend to work (relatively) smoothly. When there's difficulties, or the boyz get the feeling that maybe the big boss doesn't *actually* have a cunning plan to get into ever-bigger fights, well, that's when it starts to break down.
Sieges and stalemates are hard on orks. They want a straight-up fight, and prolonged inactivity will cause them to pick fights among themselves. This goes back to Tolkien and GW has embraced it.
In theory, the Ork supply chain could sustain prolonged combats, but in practice, they tend to break down because of the sheer boredom and the lack of fresh loot.
There's also the issue of attrition. Those slave armies that are worked to death...yeah, they go away. And with them goes the knowledge of how everything works. So it will start to break down and here the ork preference to jury-rig everything rather than build it to last comes into play. While we can draw analogies between Ork equipment and the simple but super-robust stuff produced by the Soviets, the fact is the Soviets didn't subsequently wildcat their ammo and try turn their T-34s into top-fuel drag racers. Orks are known to do that.
I don't think there is any solid evidence a Waaagh! is incapable of prolonged combat whilst a strong warlord still leads the Orks. A siege is still plenty of fighting after all.
The siege of Broucheroc in the novel 15 hours has been ongoing for 10 years. As mentioned in Imperial Armour volume 8*, the siege of Tallarax lasted 3 years and the subsequent siege of Forsarr lasted 8 years. The sieges of Hive Infernus and Hive Volcanus during the Third War for Armageddon have been continuing for over a year (although Ghaz is obviously an exceptional Warlord).
On the whole, orks actually seem quite happy to dig in and throw up defences for a prolonged scrap.
*More on this later once I've had time to parse the information.
On the contrary, based on Ork reproduction rate after a year as stated in 3rd codex, that's when the orky numbers will start staggering.
Prolonged warfare will mostly advantage the orks in my view: numbers, and they're settlements and supply line will be up and ready.
And yeah, sieges can be totally vicious and to the taste of the orks.
The issue for the orks is if they are defeated repeatedly, as no scrap and rising tensions will probably make the waaagh crumble.
Orks make it a competition. Who can knock the most bits off the walls. Can the Speed Freeks get up enough speed to go up and over the walls. Who can bag the most Sally units when they make a break for it. Who can stick around the longest before being driven back. If anyone argues about who got closest this time? Have a fight with them!
The Ork mindset is quite something. Everything is a laugh, including your mates being blown up. Provided whatever is going on repeats in ever grander ways, they’re pretty satisfied.
A long drawn out siege is a camping holiday with loads of good fights, either against the foe or each other.
So long as there’s explosions and plenty of Dakka going on at all hours? Orks are gonna be pretty happy.
Meks also do their bit for the distraction, building Gargants and other siege engines. Those need scrap, which means the Orks have even more to do, even if it’s just hauling back wrecks of their own stuff for recycling.
Essentially, when you’ve a few hundred thousand or more Orks in the same locale? It’s really, really hard for them to be bored for long.
I agree. Boredom is quite overstated by is players as opposed to how it is in the lore.
However, the orks can be brought low by internal strifes (vying for who's the next boss)... or I guess no longer being supplied.
That means, if the scrap flow goes thin, they probably won't be able to maintain industry and logistics and while they won't break because of it on a moral collapse, they'll be beaten if they lack the tools to fight properly a large scale campaign. This can in itself be the reason for internal strife to break because war fed nobz will maybe start thinking the boss isn't that tough, and he could well be better off if he were to lead the waaagh...
But breaking ork logistics in the long term must be hard.
As we established, yes, it can fall apart to tensions, ambitions, or ponctual mismanagement.
But in the long term? Ork slaves are plenty and reproduce at tremendous rates.
Their means of stocking and transportation are rugged and rough, able to withstand any conditions and get the loot coming up, and the stuff coming down, in streams.
And, since they are essentially a mix of instinctive and economical networks of said loot and stuff coming back and forth, backed but said rugged gear, they will no doubt be re-established in no time flat.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given they were under constant attack by Daemons, I’d urge caution on drawing the conclusion lotsa warp = lotsa Orks, when perhaps the more straight forward is lotsa fightin’ = lotsa Orks.
If the spore reproduction is true, it could be triggered by stress. The more fightin’, the more Orks is needed, the more existing Orks spore.
Bit late to respond but it's almost certainly this, rather than some hithero completely unmentioned (and unimplied) situation where ork spores feed off of warp energy.
If the Hulks were subjected to multiple large-scales attacks with time in between them to 'recoup' then it's likely just a situation of stress or combat induced spore spreading / ork generation during an attack, followed by a period of time during which those orks come into being without immediately being killed, then another attack which triggers a much larger-scale spore release and ork creation wave, another time of stability, ect.
We have precedent for this exact thing in real-life ecology via forests. Forest fires are beneficial, clearing away debris and triggering a large-scale period of growth within a forest itself. Granted this applies to forests which are naturally allowed to burn and grow on their own, rather than those which are heavily over grown via human meddling.
Very fair points by Haighus, Maréchal and the Doc re: sieges and the propensity of orks to be bored.
Obviously we could say there's good fights and bad fights - if lots of the ladz are getting picked off without even getting a sniff of action first, then that's not going to create a positive and productive work environment. However, it's probably right to say that the fluff consistently depicts even standard boyz as being pretty creative within their narrow range of interests, so sooner or later some enterprising young greenskin's gonna figure out a way to neutralise this problem (most likely in the most ridiculous fashion possible, but if it works - it works!)
Ultimately I guess the point is that orks are like any other armed force - victory is what motivates them, and if there aren't victories then there'll be trouble - but the orky concept of "victory" is, to say the least, rather different to what a human soldier might define it as. I guess that's what gives them staying power, and makes them a legitimate threat to other factions as opposed to just a very loud nuisance.
I’m sure command changes hand fairly frequently during sieges, as one or other of the Big Bosses gets fed up with failure, and decides they should be in charge.
But, provided it’s not the Warboss or Warlord, just his underlings? The whole of thing probably holds together. With the resulting scrap over leadership being another source of amusement, provided you don’t get a domino effect of challenges which absolutely could collapse the siege.
This is why Orks are so successful, despite their brutish exterior. They don’t just like violence, they require it and thrive on it. So they’re really difficult to take on, because you need to be able to apply constant pressure against their attacks.
The Imperial Guard and Tyranids pretty much go the body-for-body route. As would Necrons now I think about it.
Marines, Craftworlders? Decapitation strikes aimed at crippling the command structure, letting Orks be Orks and tear themself down from there.
Tau? Probably a mix of the two to be honest, but with a preference for decapitation.
This is why the Imperium in favourable circumstances are so successful against Waaaghs! Guard pin them in place, the more elite forces breakdown Orky Kommand, the Guard then take over again to prevent the squabbling remnants linking up under whomever comes out on top.
All much easier said than done of course, but that’s the general theory. And indeed why Ullanor was such a crushing defeat, one sufficient to see the Orky menace be relegated to little during the ensuing Heresy. One could even argue had the Heresy not occurred, the success of Ullanor might’ve seen Orks a manageable if constant threat to the day, with no one Waaagh! ever really getting much steam before being shattered.
Important to highlight once again: decapitating the waaagh gains you only temporary respite. Soon enough, a new boss will step out and take things back in hand.
But, especially when you enjoy widely different and combined forces as the imperium does, you can use that time well to inflict actual, substantial damages to the waaagh, either by such crippling losses caused by attacks benefiting from the turmoil, and/or shattering the orks means of productions/logistical routes
In the end, I think orks are a bit like Tyranids. The warmachinenthat is a waaagh is intricate and rugged, and regenerative to such an incredible extent that anything short of utter victory will actually fail to stop them and mostly remove their threat: armaggedon for instance was not a total victory. And indeed, the Ork menace was only postponed.
The upside to such a strike is, right place right time, you not only take out the Warboss, but the senior Nobz as well, further muddying the line of succession and causing a greater impact.
Plus, the bigger the Waaagh! the bigger the collapse, as word filters down Da Boss Iz Ded. So where a Warband may be able to bounce back fairly quickly, the more Warbands are involved, the more in-fighting occurs, because the stakes are higher.
Yes you may find one Boss rising quite quickly, but if they’re injured in the process, they’re exposed to challenges of their own, and so the house of cards falls.
Of course, unless you have some means to keep up the overall pressure and keep fracturing the whole down into ever smaller contingents, you’ve just kicked the can down the road.
Of course, unless you have some means to keep up the overall pressure and keep fracturing the whole down into ever smaller contingents, you’ve just kicked the can down the road.
That's precisely what I tried to express, but better said
Thinking about this btw: with necrons litteraly able to teleport in absurd and OP manners, how do anybody's logistics and campand chains actually survive?
Do we assume Ork waaaghs of size could be too big to fall easily that way counting on its ability to remap and reorganise instinctively? For a lesser tribe however there's like no way they'll survive that?
Just thinking and spinning the thread towards "how do Ork logistics deal with X problem"
I suspect, but can’t prove, the bigger the Waaagh!, the more it suffers from the loss of the Warlord.
See, to become Warlord you need to break a lot of skulls, absorbing other Warbands into your own. And by no means does that mean your previous rivals are killed. Some will be of course, but by no means all/
Then, at a certain point, Warbands will begin to join of their own volition, because wherever you go, there’s always a really good fight.
Remove that Warlord and his immediate cronies (who tend to stick together, especially for really big fights), and those who’d been defeated on the way will chance their hand. Those that joined up willingly might just go their own way, or join in the fun.
Essentially, bigger the Waaagh! the more would-be replacement Warbosses there are, and the bigger the infighting is going to be. And it’s not as if anyone is forming an orderly queue. It’s a free-for-all pagga between anyone who wants to be the next Warboss, and indeed any Ork that just doesn’t want to be left out of the fight. Which is all of them. The Boyz won’t stand a chance of emerging on top of course, but it’s still a great excuse to beat up those gitz over there that always think they’re dead good.
I think both of the war for octarius, where the Tyranid ripped the balance and almost won by killing off big boss skarfang, and that was a mighty waaagh.
And even more convincing, under mogrok's kunnin plans on Alaric, even though he was poised to replace grukk, the death of the original warboss sent the waaagh in such disarray that stein actually thought it could be defeated at that point by reducing Klan's one by one.
But sadly, what we lack to actually prove that point is examples of lower scale waaaghs or Ork invasions in the canon lore. Anyone's got any?
One thing in ork logistics is the boredom- but rmember in the Ghaz book, he made it a contest of who could take the "not fighting" to work and get off Urk and into the stars. He evn stood outside and didn't do much of anything to show he could be stoic. Course Ghaz is the Profit of Gork n' Mork, and any other warlord wouldn't have the smarts/ stamina to pull what he did off.
Makari's viion of the great green also shows the natural ork progression: Squiglets, squigs, snots eating each other and anything around; grots using materials from the latter to mak crude tools and scavenge wherever they are; then orks
- it'd most likely be wildboyz without any other invervention- then specialist Madboyz like Painboyz, meks, etc; and as they get older/ more orks, nobs then a warlord. By that time the gestalt Waagh! energy should be enough to allow them to make things up to regular orky standards.
My headcannon for Waagh! knowledge is like every ork has a page of the Encyclopedia Britannica in thier head- you need more to get a working volume- barring Madboyz like Talker who seem to have a greater innate understanding of the psychic resonances. So, you need quite a lot of orks to have the ability to make better and better things. But, it'd be faster than 'Oomies with no previous knowledge to go from stick and sinew tools to say, making a suit of mega-armor. Most races write things down and build off of previous knowledge. Orks start over time and again, and have the knowledge readily available, so no need to think of the past.
It also may or may not bare relevance, but in Dawn of War the Orks got materials for buildings dumped into a pile- but in reality, they could just send Roks or any other ships down and Boom! Instant fortress!
Ork society does seem to follow quite strict patterns.
If isolated, you get what would be called Wildboyz and Ferals. Usually quite a low technological base, with a reliance on Squigs and Pigs, with Pigdoks being the first Oddboy to manifest.
But, as the tribe grows? Doks, Meks, Painboyz and Weirdboyz begin to manifest.
And, Orks being Orks? It seems the bigger the tribe, the more Oddboyz (with certain clans manifesting them in different concentrations). And the more Oddboyz, the more creative each becomes, quite possibly in the pursuit of being the best in their field.
So once again we see competition being the driving force behind Orky society. A single Mek is perfectly capable, but just as not creative or I suppose ambitious as one with a rival, or multiple rivals.
This may be in part due to labour hours and limited scale of projects.
For a silly sci-fi species of football ‘ooligans, there’s a lot to them!
In a way it's arguable that Orks simply will their supply chain into force of being. The requirement is there for dakka and choppin' and so something has to happen to facilitate that.
I've noticed a couple of people saying yes Orks might have industry but nothing logistical but I don't think it's right to differentiate the two. Industry exists for Orks and so a supply of materiel must occur in order to do what they want.
I don't know if this is the same in other countries but here in the UK some graphic designer decided that every freight company needs their own daft little slogan like "revitalising supply chainsor "Freight for the Future!" as if this isn't how humans have been moving things for thousands of years.
If anyone starts making some Orky logistics corps I hope they add in some similar graffiti
Simplifying it horribly, to support industrialized warfare you need: raw materials (gathered by grots and slaves); manufacturing facilities (designed by instinct, constructed by operated by grots and slaves); food (squigs, supplemented by whatever else they feel like eating); Combat troops (orks themselves).
For humans all of the above is founded on extensive educational systems to enable generalists to become specialists. This needs its own set of logistics to make work. Orks do this instinctively as well. The only education I'm aware of is the old Stormboyz Corps stuff. Everything else apparently occurs to the relevant oddboyz, supplemented by tinkering. Orks don't have a species-wide method of disseminatino of information, so they must all be programmed with some level of baseline knowledge that they can start to draw on when the right stimuli is provided.
Basically, anywhere that needs extensive effort gets hand-waved away by "oh they just do that by instinct" and/or "there are so many of them". And this latter point is also based on suitable space magic that ensures that they can keep replacing massive casualty rates at all levels through internecine warfare, casualties from external parties, and using their own extended species as a food source. They are an even more effective bioweapon than tyranids basically.
I'm guessing the old Ones wish they turned an "off" button on the Krorks- or possibly they knew the 'Nids would eat and/ or strengthen them (See: Octavius War).
What's great about squigs is not only their individual uses + food, but the fact they are themselves mobile. Other armies have to worry about shipping rations/ oil/ tools. Squigs ship themselves and follow orks around- whether they are wanted or not. But, a part of it does feel like the Piers Anthony Xanth novels, where the convenience is a bit too uncanny. IE: "Oh, I'm hungry- I need to find a Pie Tree!"
The 3rd/4th/whenevs Necron Codex described, if I recall correctly, the new species raised up by the Old Ones as Rush Jobs.
We don’t know how far into that epoch spanning war the Krorks were created. And definitely do not know Krorks = Orks. At all.
But, if they were? The Old Ones were likely powerful they didn’t actually need an “off” switch, as they could just snuff their creations out by a “Big Deff” switch
In "Engine of Mork" (Which, honestly I haven't myself read and/or gotten the Audible) it's very heavily inferred with the Madboy "Talker". They were trying to splice some Eldar tech into a gun or such and then:
“Caution must be taken when interfacing ionic technologies, especially those that originate with alien species whose consciousness wavelengths are incompatible with the psychically motivated etheric generators of the krork,” said Talker.
But, Talker isn't aware of what he's saying most of the time. Still- he's pretty much tapping into the gestalt Kr/Ork knowledge database. I DID hear him in Prophets of the Waagh! and much of the same, where he spouts out highly niche knowledge... then goes back to calling a grot "A tiny green Oomie". -Defiantly not a grot..
In fact I think I prefer Orks not being a devolved form of Krork, but being to Krork as homo neandethalis to homo sapien sapien. A branch or step along the evolutionary tree. And one when the big scrap was over and done with, proved adept at survival and adaptation, whilst remaining well removed from the intended product.
Yeah, never been overly keen on the idea that Krork were some kind of advanced ork myself - especially given virtually everything we've read in the fluff about the "modern" orks indicates they're admirably suited for the carnage of the 41st millennium, and ESPECIALLY because it's led to some of the most insufferable clickbait youtube video titles in the 40k sphere.
As Doc says, to me the "common ancestor" idea seems most fitting - perhaps the Krork and the Orks were similar efforts at creating a warrior-race to serve as a bulwark against the Necrons, with one proving ultimately more survivable than the other. Obviously it's never going to be confirmed either way, so your mileage may vary, but I guess that's what I'd prefer.
Stepping outside the fluff for a second, the Ork evolution/biomechanics are also a massive bit of special pleading to allow a race with a chilly room temperature IQ to move through space and have advanced technology.
Even the brightest of the mad meks and weirdboys are actually pretty daft, they just know things.
Which is fine, and the fact that the orks are the way they are is one reason (he said, daring to cross the threads) that some sort of coexistence is ludicrous given 40k's background. Why would orks not fight?
I personally don't mind the orks being devolved from the kroks, I like the idea of the galaxy being really built on the fuming ruins of the war in heaven ya Di ya Di ya.
Why would the orky not fight... 'ard one. I'd bet on the idea that orks are not stupid either and know taking advantage of someone or something to at least some degree, or restrain themselves from proper wars or too much internal brawls as long as the boss says there's not ready to go into battle yet. As in, this is an urge they have and they ultimately need war to thrive, but their not yet Khorne berserkers. Sorta. Kinda.
Yep- agai, I refer to the Ghaz book when Makari says there's a word in Grotspeak that Orks don't know: Shmeckenundshcnicht (or thereabouts) that means "save now, eat later". To an ork, not doing something NOW is anathema whether it's eating, fighting, krumping, going to the drops, etc. But- Greenskin kultur is just that: both Orks and Grots. Orks are the brutal but kunnin, grots are kunnin but brutal, Gork vs. Mork. It's klans like the Blood Axes, who do most un-orky things like diplomacy or sneaking that are shunned because they've got too much Mork in them. Likewise, the Deathskulls are seen as a bunch of weedy thieves who only see thier flashy bits in the hands of others- and fight to rectify this situation. Again, Deathskulls act more like grots in this manner and have more (Obvious blue) Mork kunnin and luck.
While Makari was in the Great Green seeing the vision, he also witnessed huge giant Orks, that may or may not be the Krorks- but noticed in current times, orks can get big- but never big enough to come close to the past giant selves. It's like the "ethnic crabs" joke:
You have to put (insert racial ethnicity here) crabs in a pot with a heavy lid on. Because when it gets hot, they'll try to help at least one get out. But you can leave the lid off (insert other racial ethnicity here) because if one tries to get out, they all drag it back down.
The orks are currently the 2nd type, but if Ghaz and Makari have their way, they could unite the Orks and perhaps Ghaz will get as big/ powerful as at least one of the Beasts that Vulkan fought.
Not only is the ramshackle/ Mad max like diesel-punk look endearing in the orks, but also remember- they are the only race in WH40K who is actually having fun! Humans/Necrons/Eldar/Leagues of Votann: fighting to survive after a marked decline in culture and galactic power.
T'au: Dealing with their auxiliaries and Farsight enclaves, plus struggling to survive in a vast galaxy- without long-range warp travel.
Kroot: Would be happier if the meat stopped fighting and let them eat you.
Chaos: Enslaved to dark powers, channeling emotions and feelings of other sentient beings.
Tyranids: Eating. There may not even be such a thing as complex emotions to the Hive Mind.
As for other niche races, I got the sense in the Last Chancers novel when they infiltrated a Tau world that other xenos are more like refugees, and just try to get along vs. the other bigger galactic powers.
ingtaer wrote: The Imperial Armour book 8 was entirely about Imperium forces raiding an Ork held world to disrupt their logistics (including blowing up a fuel storage area) and assassinate their best Mek. Has some details into how an Ork Waagh functions logistically.
So this book, whilst focusing mainly on the Ork production facilities on Kastorel-Novem, does touch on Ork logistics to and from production areas in support of Waaagh! Garaghak.
Firstly, they acknowledge that Ork logistics operations exist, although do not go into any details about the "how" Orks achieve these. The Ork forces actually collected scrap from their holdings in the entire sector to deposit on Kastorel-Novem for processing into "finished" products, this clearly required some kind of spaceborne freight system. Secondly, Kastorel-Novem supplied the Ork frontline on Forsarr over an eight year conflict, again via spaceborne freight of sone kind. These worlds are interstellar, not in the same system.
I think Waaagh! Garaghak is a good example of the longevity of Ork incursions and shows that they are not typically a flash in the pan but are sustained operations applying pressure for a long time (unless defeated). Garaghak first attacked the Imperium in 936.M41, and was still at large and gearing up to attack Deliverance 63 years later in 999.M41. This is typical enough that it is apparently used as a training example by the Schola Progenium (Apocalypse rulebook 1st edition, pg. 129).
We see a very similar situation in Waaagh! Grax attacking the Ryza sector- the assault began in 925.M41 and Grax was not killed until the formation of the Great Rift in 999.M41. During this time, Grax attacked Ryza itself three times- I think this is particularly interesting because it shows that Ghazghull is not unique in being able to retain control if beaten back from a world. In the Ghazghull supplement, it mentions that the Imperium (except Yarrick) assumed that a defeated Warlord would lose too much reputation and be deposed, which they thought would finish off Ghazghull if he was not killed as thought on Armageddon during the Second War. Now we have examples of two Warlords known to have retained control following a loss. However, sometimes it must be true that adefeated-but-surviving Warlord gets taken out by a rival and either a new Warlord takes over or the Waaagh! falls into infighting.
Waaagh! Garaghak and Waaagh! Ghazghull provide some insight into the issue of maintaining compliance across an interstellar Ork domain. Essentially, the most-trusted Warbosses under the Warlord are entrusted with specific missions, such as hold this world or attack that planet- members from the same clan generally being trusted the most. Orks believe firmly in might-is-right, so suitably violent Warlords do seem able to instil loyalty in this way. So long as they maintain their reputation for victory and strength, others will continue to follow even if they get some crappier jobs. It also appears Warlords will occasionally do spot checks to make sure everything is going to plan and remind any upstarts who is really in charge, such as Garaghak visiting Kastorel-Novem after the raid. Ghazghull no longer needs to do this- he has gained the ability to telepathically communicate with his minion bosses. It appears that contigencies can also be put in place- Garaghak (a Goff), placed a Goff Warboss to watch over and guard his chief big mek on Kastorel-Novem whilst Garaghak was on Forsarr.
Another interesting episode is the Overfiend of Octarius sending a minion to put the nearby Garaghak in his place- Garaghak defeated the Warboss sent to overpower him and gained control over both forces. Here we see a major Warlord using a trusted lieutenant to knock out growing rivals- whilst this particular example failed, presumably this is a common tactic for busy Warlords.
We know Ork empires exist, the oldest known to the Imperium is Charadon, which has existed for thousands of years with a succession of Warlords. These apparently form when a Waaagh! runs out of steam but a strong Warlord holds the domain together as an empire regardless. Octarius is probably the most well-known, Jagga and Dregruk are other examples. The Ork codex (3rd edition) states these are operated in more of a feudalistic manner, which suggests Warbosses rule each world in the name of the top Warlord, and pay tribute to and fight for the Warlord when demanded. Otherwise, they are probably left to their own devices a lot of the time. Warlords commanding an Ork empire seem to occasionally create expeditionary fleets that go off and attack neighbouring areas, with new Warlords springing up in the resulting power vacuum- for example, the Overfiend of Octarius left with a huge force to join Waaagh! Ghazghull in attacking Armageddon during the Third war, with a new Overfiend appearing (this being the one attacked by and later killed by Hive fleet Leviathan). I suspect these expeditionary Waaaagh!s serve as safety valves to allow Ork empires to release a build-up of Orks before it boils over into infighting that could destroy the empire. They are interesting because the Octarius example shows that a large fighting strength can be left behind/replenish exceptionally rapidly with a credible force to hold off Leviathan just a year later.
If isolated, you get what would be called Wildboyz and Ferals. Usually quite a low technological base, with a reliance on Squigs and Pigs, with Pigdoks being the first Oddboy to manifest.
But, as the tribe grows? Doks, Meks, Painboyz and Weirdboyz begin to manifest.
I am pretty confident runtherdz/slaverz also appear alongside pigdoks at the very beginning in the feral stage. Weirdboyz are another oddboy that appears early, in the feral stage before pigdoks differentiate into meks and doks, but probably after the first two become apparent in Ork society.
Oy, that's a good in depth analysis of this story. I just re listened to this told by aborder prince.
In the wake I also listen to his recording of shadow point, and I remarked the mentioning Ork launching platforms within the rocks they use in space combat. While poorly shielded and in relative disorder, it was similar to human ones.
They contained all necessary: loads of grit workers and fuel and ammunition. And, as befit the rugged Ork take on architecture, were built inside a litteral rock with minimum re-configuration of it.
OI WOT KIND OF NONSENSE IZ DIS? TYPICAL HUMIE NONSENSE, MAKIN FINGS SO ZOGGIN COM-PLI-KATED
A MOB NEEDZ AMMO, THA NOB SENDZ IZ BEST GROTZ TOMI WORKSHOP WITH A BAG OF TEEF, DEN DA ZOGGIN RUNTS TAKE DA AMMO AND BRING IT BACK TODA NOB.
I think the lesson is that ork logistics are somewhat alien to humans in the particulars, but also very linear and simple to understand. This would make them more vulnerable to disruption because I don't see orks as using a lot of misdirection, and their emphasis on doing stuff BIG would make it easy to detect and disrupt.
I don't see orks running staggered convoys at irregular intervals to avoid detection. I see them as running massive, smoking, engine-roaring supply trains as soon as they are full. There's not likely to be a regular schedule, but if ISR is able to determine when the next shipment will be ready, it could be struck with confidence.
I guess I'm going to show some partisanship here insofar as I think the Imperium is probably the most logistically capable of all the armies, and that's because supplying mass armies is the only way they can survive. They don't have quality, or agility, they have mass and they know how to sustain it.
Orks are good, but not as good, and savvy Imperial commanders will exploit this.
The trouble is, Orky logistics aren’t necessarily centralised.
Every settlement and sizeable warband will have its own Oddboyz. Yes the greater the concentration, the most troublesome their collective efforts will be.
And those convoys? They’ll be Warbands in their own right, and just as up for a fight as any other warband. Every buggy, trukk and wagon armed and armoured enough for combat.
That makes tricker to tackle than a regular supply column, because every Ork involved is Well Up For A Fight, and will have plenty ammo and fuel. Indeed I’d wager there are Mobs who prefer such duties, knowing that the enemy will be seeking such a convoy out, increasing the chances of…getting into a fight. And if you’re really lucky? You might just get to shoot a serious bit of Dakka on behalf of the Meks, or even better, Warboss.
Never underestimate the danger of engaging a sentient species entirely dedicated to getting into fights because fights are really fun!
Every settlement and sizeable warband will have its own Oddboyz. Yes the greater the concentration, the most troublesome their collective efforts will be.
And those convoys? They’ll be Warbands in their own right, and just as up for a fight as any other warband. Every buggy, trukk and wagon armed and armoured enough for combat
Yes, but orks being pre-programmed (as it were) are going to operate in consistent, predictable ways. That's how instincts work.
Just as the various clans act the same way, so will the logistics. Crack the code and you win.
Your notion that ork supply chains tie down an inordinate amount of combat power so they can fight with each other at the drop of a hat (or would it be "droppa 'at"?) isn't an argument for efficiency. Where does this ammo and firepower come from? If the troops at the front are hard-pressed, having the rear echelon types take the cream of the crop is not a good thing.
I don’t think it’s so much “Convoys have the best gear,” but “Convoys are made up of giant, ridiculously tough killing machines that are all too happy to fight.”
JNAProductions wrote: I don’t think it’s so much “Convoys have the best gear,” but “Convoys are made up of giant, ridiculously tough killing machines that are all too happy to fight.”
Right, but that's like placing carrier strike groups on convoy duty. It's not an efficient use of combat power.
It also runs counter to ork culture. No warrior wants to be stuck herding grots and driving trukks, they want to be at the front bashing heads.
This is why I can see huge problems with the orks as frustrated rear-area commanders "sort out" priority at road junctions.
The orks may be ruthlessly efficient in resource extraction, but they're still football hooligans at heart. "What say we fight over this here ammo train? It may cook off, but it'll be brilliant if it does."
Stepping outside the fluff for a second, the Ork evolution/biomechanics are also a massive bit of special pleading to allow a race with a chilly room temperature IQ to move through space and have advanced technology.
Even the brightest of the mad meks and weirdboys are actually pretty daft, they just know things. ...
While the particulars of this knowledge are unique to the orks (encoded in their genetic structure, evidently), we see even just on Earth, a huge variety of species that operate using advanced physics and math, but who don't actually understand physics or math. You have fish that can aim at prey across a water/air boundary (so their minds are taking into account the refraction of different media). You have species that navigate based on polarized light, or regional localized magnetic fields--without having any intellectual understanding of those things. You have insects with tiny, tiny minds that build complex structures in highly efficient and strong shapes, without any knowledge of engineering at all.
Now, if you take that idea of complex emergent behavior and ramp it up a bazillion times over, I can see Orks capable of warp travel without being able to consciously articulate precisely why that spinny bit is important.
To circle that back around to logistics, given that we 'know' that ork knowledge and technical skills are encoded in their genetic structure, and we know that they are bred/designed/created for war, it seems likely that every single ork, not just the oddboys, has some amount of inherent logistical behavior encoded within them. Not to the point where they discuss logistics, or appoint quartermasters, or jot down notes about the supply chain, but to where, like migrating birds, their behavior, entirely opaque to them adjusts to support logistical necessities.
Sure, there will be oddboys out there that can actually bend their brains around and look at that they do, and maybe even explain it, but the vast majority of orks will behave in ways to support logistical necessities without thinking about it--because they have to have been designed to do so.
To take this out a bit further (I love the spitballing here), the preponderance of particular klans in ork spores might even be in response to logistical necessities. If an area is naturally sparse of useful things like ammo and gubbins, more Snakebites (who might fight with a club and some bows and arrows) are born. If an area is resource rich, then a surplus of Bad Moons, whose abundant teef support resource management through a monetary economy are crawling out of the ground. If an area requires complex negotiations or subterfuge to obtain war materiel, then more Blood Axes might be in those spores. If a previously resource rich area has degraded, then the spores produce more Deathskulls to loot and repurpose expended resources. And if a previously resource rich area is rapidly becoming depleted, you may get more Goffs, who prefer close combat and who will expend less ammo and make use of more choppy bits, which do not become expended quite as fast.
(Heck, you might even get more Evil Suns in areas where fuel resources are more abundant than other mineral/metallogical resources, so they build relatively durable--in the sense that they don't get expended--vehicles to exploit the abundant fuel resources.).
The efficiency and durability of ork logistics should be enraging and opaque to Imperial strategists, because the orks themselves don't understand them. They are just bred to fight and win.
It would make for a funny ork story for an imperial to be taken by surpise by a complete change of ork tactics all because the orks ran out of some certain supply. The imperials prepare some dedicated anti tank unit to take some armored convoy coming their way. This army is later flanked from some unseen direction. It turns out the orks ran out of gas and decided to just get out and walk over the mountain. Maybe some lootas ripped out the big guns and just hoofed it.
That classic ork logic that is too alien and stupid to predict.
I think doc in right not in that the orks will create specific rear echelon units of elite Boyz, but because any boy at anytime is geared and eager to have a fight.
Because of this, even a warband tasked by da boss to ferry squig snacks and mega armour batteries and shoota slugs to his mega nobz up front will go with it's complement of armed to the teeth trucks, scared grot slaves, and try to make stunts as they drive to the front line hoping that once there they'll get entangled in the fight as well.
So, while Ork logistics columns would be way harder to attack up front because it's mobs are probably waiting for nothing else than you to come and get them, it's not out of particular training or organisation and more because of da Ork way.
However, judging by said lack of actual organisation and instead instinctive, stream like logistical routes, commissar is still right in a sense I think.
That the orks composing the column are able and ready to put out a fight does not mean that they can't be overwhelmed by a determined assault. It'll cost you men, but it would work. Second, if the orks haven't got a boss smart enough to mile in anti aircraft batteries inside the warbands, they'll be extremely vulnerable to air strafe raids. And finally, the fact the orks love fighting so much means you could litteraly bait the Ork logistics out of its tracks and have frontline units go low on complement.
I also 100% agree with the idea that while the imperium hasn't got the best technology, nor the best tactitians and strategists maybe, they sure as hell are probably the very best at sustaining logistics and troops. Not even a well organised force as the tau are as good due to lack of real warp or FTL travel.
Only exception being Tyranids, of course, but we're on another scale.
Oh, and yeah, it'd make for a damn good story. Why not write one, I'd eagerly give it a read
Every settlement and sizeable warband will have its own Oddboyz. Yes the greater the concentration, the most troublesome their collective efforts will be.
And those convoys? They’ll be Warbands in their own right, and just as up for a fight as any other warband. Every buggy, trukk and wagon armed and armoured enough for combat
Yes, but orks being pre-programmed (as it were) are going to operate in consistent, predictable ways. That's how instincts work.
Just as the various clans act the same way, so will the logistics. Crack the code and you win.
Your notion that ork supply chains tie down an inordinate amount of combat power so they can fight with each other at the drop of a hat (or would it be "droppa 'at"?) isn't an argument for efficiency. Where does this ammo and firepower come from? If the troops at the front are hard-pressed, having the rear echelon types take the cream of the crop is not a good thing.
I disagree. Orks absolutely have cunning on their side.
Sure, few will develop their skills much beyond instinct “get over dere an’ give dem sum boot levva”. But time and again we see reliance on Orks being predictable costing their foes victory. Roks, Tellyportas, Kommandos, and general sneakiness, not to mention utterly unique wonder weapons even the Mek isn’t sure about the purpose of all exist. And it only takes a Boss to force the others into being clever and sneaky.
Also, I’m not arguing Orky supply columns go well armed in combat ready vehicles to fight each other. They go well armed in combat ready vehicles, because all Orky vehicles are well armed and combat ready. Got a passenger seat? Bolt on a big shoota to keep them entertained. Boyz left back at camp to recuperate, during wartime, will be numerous. Orks heal well, not instantly. So there’d be plenty kicking about camp, ready to get back to the fighting. Ammo/supply convoy is going that way anyway, and has a high chance of attracting enemy attention, so hitching a ride? One way or another, you’re gonna get a fight out of it. Mobs out of favour with the Warboss may be ordered to stay behind initially. Mobs whos Trukk or Battlewagon was up on blocks when everyone else went off for a fight can be deployed in second and subsequent waves.
And that’s assuming the entire host, once mobilised, hasn’t adopted a nomadic approach.
JNAProductions wrote: I don’t think it’s so much “Convoys have the best gear,” but “Convoys are made up of giant, ridiculously tough killing machines that are all too happy to fight.”
Right, but that's like placing carrier strike groups on convoy duty. It's not an efficient use of combat power.
It also runs counter to ork culture. No warrior wants to be stuck herding grots and driving trukks, they want to be at the front bashing heads.
This is why I can see huge problems with the orks as frustrated rear-area commanders "sort out" priority at road junctions.
The orks may be ruthlessly efficient in resource extraction, but they're still football hooligans at heart. "What say we fight over this here ammo train? It may cook off, but it'll be brilliant if it does."
Every settlement and sizeable warband will have its own Oddboyz. Yes the greater the concentration, the most troublesome their collective efforts will be.
And those convoys? They’ll be Warbands in their own right, and just as up for a fight as any other warband. Every buggy, trukk and wagon armed and armoured enough for combat
Yes, but orks being pre-programmed (as it were) are going to operate in consistent, predictable ways. That's how instincts work.
Just as the various clans act the same way, so will the logistics. Crack the code and you win.
Your notion that ork supply chains tie down an inordinate amount of combat power so they can fight with each other at the drop of a hat (or would it be "droppa 'at"?) isn't an argument for efficiency. Where does this ammo and firepower come from? If the troops at the front are hard-pressed, having the rear echelon types take the cream of the crop is not a good thing.
I think that it is broadly correct that Ork supply chains are a weakness, but that doesn't mean that enemy forces can actually capitalise on that. You still need to be able to strike them with enough force. It is similar to the weakness Ork forces have to decapitation strikes- taking out the dominant warboss is very effective because Orks don't have a defined chain of comand where the second in command, third in command etc. can step in to take over. However, actually taking out the warlord is still tough because they are the hardest Ork around surrounded by their biggest lads with the best gear.
I also don't think Orks go for efficiency, because they are generally not lacking in numbers. They go for redundancy, so a lot of combat power will be in rear areas, and there will be a lot of convoys. All of these are quite thorny to attack and a good few can be lost before the front is likely to feel the impacts.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Also, I’m not arguing Orky supply columns go well armed in combat ready vehicles to fight each other. They go well armed in combat ready vehicles, because all Orky vehicles are well armed and combat ready. Got a passenger seat? Bolt on a big shoota to keep them entertained. Boyz left back at camp to recuperate, during wartime, will be numerous. Orks heal well, not instantly. So there’d be plenty kicking about camp, ready to get back to the fighting. Ammo/supply convoy is going that way anyway, and has a high chance of attracting enemy attention, so hitching a ride? One way or another, you’re gonna get a fight out of it. Mobs out of favour with the Warboss may be ordered to stay behind initially. Mobs whos Trukk or Battlewagon was up on blocks when everyone else went off for a fight can be deployed in second and subsequent waves.
That still argues against efficient logistics, though. The big shoota takes of space and weight, as does the ammo for it. Every ounce of spikes, armor plate and gun mounts counts against bullets, biscuits and blankets.
By the way, I never said orks weren't cunning, merely that because their supply chain is hereditary/instinctive, they can't change it without full-on Lysenkoism taking hold.
Could orks go around a flank, or find a hidden supply route? Sure, but the infrastructure of what they do has to be consistent because it's essentially a racial trait.
A classic Imperial psy-op would be to have assassins write insulting message from rival clans on the trucks, provoking a massive brawl at the crossroads.
A classic Imperial psy-op would be to have assassins write insulting message from rival clans on the trucks, provoking a massive brawl at the crossroads.
Oh yes, if it's not happened in canon lore yet, somebody please make it happen
A classic Imperial psy-op would be to have assassins write insulting message from rival clans on the trucks, provoking a massive brawl at the crossroads.
Oh yes, if it's not happened in canon lore yet, somebody please make it happen
Sounds like something the Ordo Sabatorum would do.
I guess it could also work with petulant races like eldars and votann too though, or even humans too.. I mean, in the 40k Millenium apparently every one loses it's temper ober the slightest hint of a bad word.
A classic Imperial psy-op would be to have assassins write insulting message from rival clans on the trucks, provoking a massive brawl at the crossroads.
Oh yes, if it's not happened in canon lore yet, somebody please make it happen
Sounds like something the Ordo Sabatorum would do.
Here- a canon example of the Ordo Sabatorum attempting to foster a known rivalry between warbosses to create a civil war. I don't think it worked based on these tribes having the same strengths by the end of the Season of Fire.
Nothing about Orks leads to efficiency. They are fractious, based on slave labour and have no real method of standardisation. I can't get my head around how the system would work with a race where the method of communication consists of grunts and blows to the head. How does a mek explain to the grots what shape the part or bullet needs to be? how does a lead mek comunicate what is needed to other meks under him, or working alongside?
Given the constant belligerence, how is there enough supervision to make sure the slave labour makes it all correctly.
As described above its plausible that their entire method of supply to the front relies on the front line troops basically in constant hot and deadly conflict with the supply structure to get the equipment and supplies to continue fighting the enemy.
The only answer really is that orks are literally a boiling mass of green flesh that provides so many bodies to do stuff, and replaces them so rapidly, that sheer unimaginable volume of creation enables the outer edges of the infestation to move in the direction of the enemy.
They have the backgrounds biggest plot armour, in that all of this is just assumed to work because they are a major player across the galaxy.
Flinty, I feel you're somewhat to severe about the orks. Firstly because pretty much everyone has got plot armour (and also in my view Tau are by far the most insufferable in that regard I think ). But as we have lenghtily discussed above, reasons are plenty why it works still.
While the entire history of being engrained with all the knowledge they need prevents them from just being this (hopefully, because they'd be very boring) may sound like plot armour of sort, it leads to the other tidbitz of the lore being completly consistent. Their language is a lot less precise than other speices' but it is still al angague (they even had fun putting out a chart of glyphs after all!). An ork big enough can subjugate the other and make a cooperating force of them. Never forget, we're talking fantasy in space here. What matters is internal consistency and in universe logic, not realism. I mean, you've got literal magic around!
And even then, the plot armour is way less real because the issues of ork society simply prevent them from wiping out everybody else, because, in the end, not every ork boss depicted as having got the kunnin to actually succeed with his warfare and falls to these shortcomings you described. Granted, that's a good thing because otherwise again the setting would get boring.
Truly, I love ork lore because it is fun, consistant, and balanced all at once.
Flinty wrote: Nothing about Orks leads to efficiency. They are fractious, based on slave labour and have no real method of standardisation. I can't get my head around how the system would work with a race where the method of communication consists of grunts and blows to the head. How does a mek explain to the grots what shape the part or bullet needs to be? how does a lead mek comunicate what is needed to other meks under him, or working alongside?
Given the constant belligerence, how is there enough supervision to make sure the slave labour makes it all correctly.
As described above its plausible that their entire method of supply to the front relies on the front line troops basically in constant hot and deadly conflict with the supply structure to get the equipment and supplies to continue fighting the enemy.
The only answer really is that orks are literally a boiling mass of green flesh that provides so many bodies to do stuff, and replaces them so rapidly, that sheer unimaginable volume of creation enables the outer edges of the infestation to move in the direction of the enemy.
They have the backgrounds biggest plot armour, in that all of this is just assumed to work because they are a major player across the galaxy.
This is where the maligned, but still canon “works because they think it does” comes in.
Slugga, Shoota, Kannon, Mega Blasta and so on are catch all terms. Each describing a size and rate of fire rather than anything more specific.
There’s clearly something about a Mek’s know-word which ensures some level of commonality. Buggies having four wheels, Trukks needing space for Boyz.
It’s also described as a Mek not really know what it is they’re building, until it’s built. Which suggests the classification comes after the manufacturing. But, it also involves some kind of Blueprints.
Grots we know are smarter than Orks. So it’s entirely possible to view the entire process as the Mek as the idiot savant, but the Grots the ones with the actual “how does it go together and work” knowledge. Those interpreting the mad doodles of the Mek into some semblance of reality.
Plus we can’t rule out Oddboyz being naturally more intelligent than common or garden Orks, by dint of being Oddboyz. Thus capable of greater communication than just walloping someone.
Guess I’m reading Waaargh! The Orks tonight. I know, I know, it’s a dirty job but someone’s gotta do it. And for you, Dear Dakka? I’ll jump on that literary stikk bomm
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Flinty, I feel you're somewhat to severe about the orks. Firstly because pretty much everyone has got plot armour (and also in my view Tau are by far the most insufferable in that regard I think).
No, that's a fact. Tau are insufferable. I refuse to accept them. In my edition, there aren't any, and I like it that way.
But I also think he's more right than wrong. The sheer idiocy of the orks argues against any kind of reliable organization and the attempts to rationalize something by lining up all the books and spraying them with warm beer until the oracle speaks doesn't work for me.
It is canon that orks work slaves to death. Neat. So who replaces them? More slaves? What happens when you run out? It's a snake living off of its tail, and while orks can doggedly hang in there as well as anyone (and seemingly have less qualms about cannibalism than the tyranids), there is a breaking point and that's why orks are the dandelions of the galaxy - they're hard to eradicate completely, but in small quantities, pose no threat to the integrity of your lawn.
Problem with logistics is it has the word "logic" in there (I know, delete some letters!) and orks do not have any. heck, just look what calling their tech support get you:
Problem with logistics is it has the word "logic" in there (I know, delete some letters!) and orks do not have any. heck, just look what calling their tech support get you:
Yes. "Hit it with a hammer. Hit it harder. Get a bigger hammer. Okay, it's broke."
Yes. "Hit it with a hammer. Hit it harder. Get a bigger hammer. Okay, it's broke."
Eh, Mechanicus isn't doing much better:
From "The rights of Awakening"
Depresseth the red rune.
Wait for sounds of the machine spirit.
If none, enact ancient chant: "Bugger it!"
Anointed thy console with a swift, deft stroke of manipulator.
Depresseth the rune again.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: Flinty, I feel you're somewhat to severe about the orks. Firstly because pretty much everyone has got plot armour (and also in my view Tau are by far the most insufferable in that regard I think).
No, that's a fact. Tau are insufferable. I refuse to accept them. In my edition, there aren't any, and I like it that way.
But I also think he's more right than wrong. The sheer idiocy of the orks argues against any kind of reliable organization and the attempts to rationalize something by lining up all the books and spraying them with warm beer until the oracle speaks doesn't work for me.
It is canon that orks work slaves to death. Neat. So who replaces them? More slaves? What happens when you run out? It's a snake living off of its tail, and while orks can doggedly hang in there as well as anyone (and seemingly have less qualms about cannibalism than the tyranids), there is a breaking point and that's why orks are the dandelions of the galaxy - they're hard to eradicate completely, but in small quantities, pose no threat to the integrity of your lawn.
United in tau hate
In fact, you summarise it quite aptly but remember: the big stories we get is when the orks actually are able to unit and thus through the force of this unity of purpose, bashing over the head of relectant elements, and expression of their genetically engrained abilities, they become a force to be reckon with.
But these orks are the 1% percent. Most Ork settlements won't ever go bigger than a few tribes doing Stunts on bikes and trying to kick their neighbours.
In that regard I think Ork lore is balanced: they have great potential, but the condition to actually harness it demand rare and powerful circonstances and leaders.
In the modern era, it’s mostly Ghaz getting everyone properly riled up, and making Orks such a unified threat. Tribes which otherwise wouldn’t have been caught up, have been, and so the Waaagh! grow.
Historically we see this occur periodically, indeed the reason Orks took a back seat during the Really Terrific Fight that was the Heresy, was their back had been broken on Ullanor, a conflict so apocalyptic it seems any Warboss of any standing got all killed to death with their lads.
Had the Heresy not occurred? It’s entirely possible a unified Imperium could eliminate any nascent Waaagh! before it became overly troublesome.
But it did. And that lead to The War of the Beast.
And now Ghaz,
But without a Waaagh!? Orks are typically happy to just beat up and fight whatever or whomever happens to be nearby. Which might make it sound tempting to nip in a bomb such a planet or attack before the Ork population reaches a critical mass. Except….that’s one of the ways the unwary can trigger a Waaagh!. Giving Orks are a really good punch up riles them up. And if it’s a really, really big fight? More Orks will arrive, fancying a bit of the action. And before you know it, you’ve lost that war, and now have some incredibly overexcited Orks looking for the next Really Good Fight.
You complete my post actually, I forgot to mention that will the waagh of proportions to truly work and go on large scale is "rare" (on the galactic scale", it's ability to snowball is without compare and that 1 initial successful waaagh can draw a fair part of the orks... And then that starts being a lot.
One problem with orks in the lore (Ghaz and War of Beast aside) is that they are the "Worf" factor. In TNG, it was no question Lt. Worf the big mean Klingon was a badass, but he seemingly always got thrashed around by baddies (Borg, posessed crew members, aliens, etc) to show how much more stronger they were.
Orks are in the same regards- GW shows they're bigger, stronger than humans- then the Imperium wipes them out. But, there's always more, so it's "Okay". It's wierd, though, that Humans have the numbers game moreso than orks and 'nids. Guard armies have always been horde-swarm, much to player's chagrin at buying pewter minis back in the day.
Somewhat tangent in my mind: But while on Guard and Orks, I just LOVE the Imperial Propaganda and how wrong it is in the Infantryman's uplifting primer. "Oh, Yeah- orks are like 4 feet tall at most, bayonet them in the throat, you'll be fine!"
That's not schoking to me, again orks are blunt and not really optimal in hteir way of running things.
So a unifyied imperial or eldar or whatever force has got some advantages over them before they reach a critical mass when they enable all their potential.
To me, considering the advantages of the orks on the other side, it's really a good thing that makes for a faction both major and not overwhelming in the setting, with both its moments of glories and times of failures. As a character, the orks are as balanced as you can get I think and that feels good.
One problem with orks in the lore (Ghaz and War of Beast aside) is that they are the "Worf" factor. In TNG, it was no question Lt. Worf the big mean Klingon was a badass, but he seemingly always got thrashed around by baddies (Borg, posessed crew members, aliens, etc) to show how much more stronger they were.
Orks are in the same regards- GW shows they're bigger, stronger than humans- then the Imperium wipes them out. But, there's always more, so it's "Okay". It's wierd, though, that Humans have the numbers game moreso than orks and 'nids. Guard armies have always been horde-swarm, much to player's chagrin at buying pewter minis back in the day.
Somewhat tangent in my mind: But while on Guard and Orks, I just LOVE the Imperial Propaganda and how wrong it is in the Infantryman's uplifting primer. "Oh, Yeah- orks are like 4 feet tall at most, bayonet them in the throat, you'll be fine!"
The trouble with fighting Orks? If you don’t score a truly decisive win, you’ve just made the problem worse. Because any survivors will end up stronger and more experienced for it, and the fact you just had a big fight could attract new Orks to the area - and by no means does that mean a lesser force. It could be a more power Warboss and his ow grizzled veterans. With no guarantee the current Warboss won’t simply bend the knee as others have before Ghaz.
And a defeat of your own forces leaves the Orks with plenty of bits and gubbins to make even more weapons and vehicles from.
Add in the staggering manpower needed to even think about confronting a Waaagh!, and you begin to see the problem.
Side thought, not entirely worthy of its own thread.
But Painboyz, and their preference for ‘Urty Syringes.
1. It’s a laff. Orks find the infliction of pain amusing.
2. But, Orks get toughened up by injuries, rapidly healing wounds which on most other species would’ve proven fatal.
Could the ‘Urty choice be an unconscious understanding that the more it hurts, the better it will heal - and indeed, the extra pain may trigger the healing process? I mean, having your arm or leg lopped off hurts. But, once it’s stitched, nailed, stapled, all three, back on? The pain is lessened.
So give ‘em a jab with the ‘Urtiest Syringe you can find introduces new pain, kicking off the healing process?
This would also explain the preference for cruder tools. By doing additional damage during the surgery, it’s fresh wounds to awaken their healing factor? And of course they’re more fun to use.
It couldn't tell which way it is, but in 4th ork codex it was stated I believe that pain boyz measured the state of consciousness and resistance of their patients judging by their screams and moanings, helping them know if they'll faint, outright die, or stuff.
Considering how warlike the orks are, it's a logical furtherment to believe they would consider sufferings in surgery a test of force and a chance to get tougher. Not even talking about bioniks.
But I'm not sure making crude tools is done on purpose. Rather, they don't bother going any further because that works more or less and their happy with it, not needing to develop any further than what they instinctively know.
But Painboyz, and their preference for ‘Urty Syringes.
1. It’s a laff. Orks find the infliction of pain amusing.
2. But, Orks get toughened up by injuries, rapidly healing wounds which on most other species would’ve proven fatal.
Could the ‘Urty choice be an unconscious understanding that the more it hurts, the better it will heal - and indeed, the extra pain may trigger the healing process? I mean, having your arm or leg lopped off hurts. But, once it’s stitched, nailed, stapled, all three, back on? The pain is lessened.
So give ‘em a jab with the ‘Urtiest Syringe you can find introduces new pain, kicking off the healing process?
This would also explain the preference for cruder tools. By doing additional damage during the surgery, it’s fresh wounds to awaken their healing factor? And of course they’re more fun to use.
I think you trying to apply a logic to something that was little more than a silly name for something.
Again, back in the good old days syringe Squigs had a anaesthetic effect. In 2nd where docs tools could be used in combat they were potent because they knocked out the opponent. Nothing in the early descriptions (best descriptions) of painboy had them deliberately inflicting pain for some benefit, they didn’t care much about pain and I’m sure the knocking out of patients was to make them easier to treat with getting a punch and easier to rip off of while they were asleep.
I don’t recall the fluff for the 3rd edition onwards “urty syringe” but nothing trumps 1st edition fluff for me.
I think the 'Utry syringe harkens back to the old days before anesthetic- y'know, when you see soldiers being held down so the doc can saw their gangrenous limb off.
And gave you something to bite on, apparently recent studied establish that while it's by no mean the most optimal solution,.it actually worked to some extent as the brain would focus on the biting of the wood rather than the pain from the surgery. No, I would not willingly Test it out
You can clearly see the inspiration for "orkish" behavior when the guy tries to catch the boomerang in The Road Warrior and loses several fingers in the process.
And his entire army falls down laughing!
That's orkishness in a nutshell. The painboys aren't doing some weird psycho surgery, they're just hamming that bionic in with a nail because that's what they have. Anyone remember "Phoenix Command"? Modern combat miniatures rules with a roleplaying gloss. Dr. Oscar Schneiderbunk and a series of quotes.
"Hand me the staple gun; this bandage is loose."
"This operation has turned into an autopsy."
Etc.
Same vibe. Orkish medicine is 18th Century battlefield surgery with power tools.
Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote: And tougher patients so it works relatively good as long as the dok doesn't get strange idea in the process.
One could end up with a cybork body, or spanners for hands. It's entirely random, which is orks in a nutshell.
I mean, that's the big takeaway. Anyone who thinks ork logistics are somehow predictable or reliable has missed a lot of the lore. The whole point of orks is that they love goofy, crazy stuff, from oversized guns that are as lethal to the user as the enemy to improbable tech like the shokk attack gun.
Talented ork commanders can exploit this random nuttiness to give opponents fits, but there's always the chance that things go sideways. The one thing orks are not prepared to accept is a by-the-numbers siege campaign. They can't do it. Either they win by sudden assault, some weird strategem/quirk of tech, or the get ground down and go home fighting amongst themselves.
Orks can and do lay siege to places. They may not be efficient and strategic in terms of salients, entrenching and artillery etc, but they do do it.
For a visual example on a tiny scale? See Mad Max 2. The Great Humongous’ gang behave much like I’d expect Orks to do - especially if the subject of the siege is a significant concentration of enemy troops.
Orks can and do lay siege to places. They may not be efficient and strategic in terms of salients, entrenching and artillery etc, but they do do it.
For a visual example on a tiny scale? See Mad Max 2. The Great Humongous’ gang behave much like I’d expect Orks to do - especially if the subject of the siege is a significant concentration of enemy troops.
I should clarify that I don't mean the siege of a specific point, I mean prolonged, static combat on a broad scale. This is the Imperium's specialty. The IG is all about the grind. While orks have some patience, it's not limitless. After years of fighting over the same rock, with diminishing loot, it gets boring and the blokes want to move on.
But yes, they will hammer a city for months on end if it looks like the thing will be profitable in the end.
Really, I think that's the way orks look at war - half hobby, half enterprise. They don't launch a Waaagh for abstract reasons, there's always the presumption of material gain. As that possibility diminishes, so does their interest.
As orks say- they are never defeated.
If they die, they don't know- because they are dead
If they kill the enemy, they look for another.
If they lose- they're "reconsolidating" to come back later for more fights!
But- Waaaghs! are kinda like any society over time. Take the Ancient Romans, for example- before the Caesars, they had patricians. And the current Italian goverment is nothing like it was 20 years ago. same with Waaghs! A leader may die, orks get absorbed into another warband, but as long as they're alive, they keep on fighting. The fact that even in death, they leave spores that will create more orks later proves this.
A Waaaagh! is an Orky holy war (please note I’m using lower case there for a reason). And mass migration
Without a Waaagh? Orks will just keep seeking out fights on whatever planet they’re on, or for those aboard ship, come across.
If that means green hot Ork on Ork, non-stop 24/7/375 action? No Ork is really fussed, so long as there’s someone to knack.
Indeed Waaaaaaghs! are the exception. When some Orky instinct compels them to go and gub someone else.
So all Waaaaghs go to the death? Wars of total annihilation? No ork returns home in defeat?
Serious question.
I think yes, it will take a crushing defeat that scatters them to stop them in their tracks. Anything less will only delay them and victory in one place will push them onwards to the nearest planet. The examples of grukk's Waagh or that of kastorel novem that was only taking its breath before attacking again.
Any Ork in a waaagh will still love the speed, the loot, the slugfest, but it's no longer this that drives them because to them it is really an almost religious phenomenon. The waaagh! Itself is the reason to fight.
However, if the waaagh starts falling apart because they lack loot, are defeated to often, then inner fightings can break out. But even with inner fighting going on, the orky will carry on trying to stomp you because that's what they do. That's what they need to do.
However, not every invasion by a few big tribes nor every Ork empire is a waaagh. Because not all of them have got that religious fervour to it.
Waaagh! mechanics aside, the core question of the thread is whether Ork logistics are a strength or a weakness.
I think that Orks by their nature are easier to sustain than most other races, but that the slack they gain from this is used up elsewhere in the supply chain. In the short run, Orks can 'get by,' but that leads to a complacency and can result in a backlash later on.
And the fluff bears this out. The various references to Orks using slave labor to run captured factories but working them to death is a built-in limiter. It's like conquering a territory, setting fire to the crops in the fields, slaughtering the peasants, and then wondering why your army is so hungry all of a sudden.
This is why Orks are primarily a localized phenomenon, a threat only as an accumulation of disparate Waaaghs, raiders and warbands, but without a central intelligence or unity of effort.
Could they be improved with proper organisations and planning? Well….yes. But doesn’t that hold true for any logistical effort?
But their society still manages. It produces specialists with savant knowledge to a certain order. And even the non-savant members know to drag anything wrecked back to the savants.
And at all points? It remains incredibly adaptable.
In fact, the only aspect of supply/demand I feel the entire Orkoid genus might suck at, is mining raw materials.
Orks don’t have the patience or interest. Even if you try to tell them they’re fighting the Mountain/Ground/Whatevs. And Grots just seem too weedy to be efficient at it.
Could they be improved with proper organisations and planning? Well….yes. But doesn’t that hold true for any logistical effort?
But their society still manages. It produces specialists with savant knowledge to a certain order. And even the non-savant members know to drag anything wrecked back to the savants.
And at all points? It remains incredibly adaptable.
In fact, the only aspect of supply/demand I feel the entire Orkoid genus might suck at, is mining raw materials.
Orks don’t have the patience or interest. Even if you try to tell them they’re fighting the Mountain/Ground/Whatevs. And Grots just seem too weedy to be efficient at it.
Big Mek D slapped his head in dismay as the Weird Boy recounted to him the various humie voices that were buzzing around in his head.
"So you mean if I splain it more den da voices go away?"
The weird boy nodded. "I fink so boss."
Big Mek D sighed. "Well since every time I smack an kick you, green shat come out and zap my armor, guess I'll try it your way."
He clears his throat.
"So da Tribe dat lives ere is called Da Wheel and Track. Its called dat cuz some Big Mek Git long time back made a bunch of vroom vroom trains. But uver meks keep makin da regular ol vroom vroom buggies an since we all like goin fast, dats what it's called. Sure we got plenty of Nobs but da big boss always iz a Big Mek. Cuz who else gonna make da good stuff eh?"
"In any case, ders no WAAAGH ere. Just Da Tribe, an Da Free Booterz flying around in da sky. Yah see some of da Boyz around ere join up with them Free Booterz and go on raids an stuff. Don't need a WAAAGH ta raid and loot after all. WAAAGH jus somethin we all hope happens. But who knows if Gork and Mork ever going to give us one?"
