See when GW previewed the Kroot up date a few weeks ago I thought it was odd that they didn't do the hounds! Very glad to see them getting fresh models!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Seems we can expect another Kroot Character, as it mentions in a teasing phrase “if only a character could keep up with them”
I think this is starting to confirm that the mounted figure we've seen is probably a character rather than a unit type.
I think I need to see the Kill Team hounds next to the old ones, but I do think the old ones had a bit more character. I get the slightly devolved look they are going for, but I think the longer jaws of the old ones captured a bit more of their almost perverse, bad tempered nature.
Not as good as the Kill Team version, but it's nice having them in plastic. Not sure if I'll ever get back around to Tau, but I love having these as an option, the metal/finecast ones were awful
Nice that they are in plastic but they are awful sculpts unfortunately. Kroot Hounds normally look a little bit ragged, hungry and dangerous. These look soft, like they were designed for plastic that couldn't take much detail. What a shame.
They're not bad, but they feel quite bland and they've lost a lot the feel of the originals. The previous models really looked like sleek dangerous alien birddogs (especially with with their long sharp snouts/beaks), and even they had small harnesses to carry stuff.
I’ve never paid much attention to Kroot (or Tau in general). The new Kroot boxed set has piqued my interest though, must fight the urge to add to my pile of shame.
I like the look of these new Hounds specifically. Looking at the current models on the GW website they look pretty goofy by comparison. I’m not sure why there’s a fair bit of negativity about them in this thread. Apart from the usual “new things are bad” negativity of course.
El Torro wrote: I’ve never paid much attention to Kroot (or Tau in general). The new Kroot boxed set has piqued my interest though, must fight the urge to add to my pile of shame.
I like the look of these new Hounds specifically. Looking at the current models on the GW website they look pretty goofy by comparison. I’m not sure why there’s a fair bit of negativity about them in this thread. Apart from the usual “new things are bad” negativity of course.
You are clearly aware that there's quite a significant design change, people are allowed to dislike that and prefer the older style. Don't make out that the only reason anyone would dislike it is because it's a new thing.
I guess you can use all of the old, medium (KT) and new models. Kroots are, what they eat - give those skinny beakies some delicious Orks instead of chicken and the next generation will look like the new ones.
Mentlegen324 wrote: They're not bad, but they feel quite bland and they've lost a lot the feel of the originals. The previous models really looked like sleek dangerous alien birddogs (especially with with their long sharp snouts/beaks), and even they had small harnesses to carry stuff.
I mean, that's what the Farstalkers' hounds have...as part of their unit.
It makes sense for them to lose the ol' bits that were effectively part of the idea of the Kroot Hounds being as part of the squad. Especially when those parts are instead still present on the Farstalker Kinbands.
Snord wrote: These look…off. I think they’re too muscular - and the sculpting of the musculature is very unnatural. Maybe a trainee did them.
They look like Kroot that have evolved into Kroothounds, therefore some of their anatomy looks like it should be on a biped and not a quadruped. I like that attention to their background.
Snord wrote: These look…off. I think they’re too muscular - and the sculpting of the musculature is very unnatural. Maybe a trainee did them.
They look like Kroot that have evolved into Kroothounds, therefore some of their anatomy looks like it should be on a biped and not a quadruped. I like that attention to their background.
If the Stormcast Gryph-Hounds are an indicator, then yeah, these were actually sculpted by a trainee, but I don't think it shows in any troublesome ways. Nothing wrong with preferring the more savage beaked, gangrel form of the older sculpts, but those have always felt more disjointed and unconvincing to me. The musculature here, right down to the too long hind legs, feels like it's more "accurate" to a bipedal birdman gradually evolving into a dog. The current sculpts had a unique alien vibe, but perhaps more because they look like the bog mummified remains of something that might’ve looked more like an animal.
I suppose the irony of a more cleanly defined body is that it takes away the magic of interpreting the form.
They look just a touch too smooth for me. The older ones had a bit more texture to them. Also the paint job looks like its explicitly designed to show where the model part joint lines run
A scuffier/scruffier/drybrushed paint job would probably do a better job.
Dryaktylus wrote:I guess you can use all of the old, medium (KT) and new models. Kroots are, what they eat - give those skinny beakies some delicious Orks instead of chicken and the next generation will look like the new ones.
This is my take too- Kroot (along with Tyranids) are the faction most amenable to anatomy changes between versions. The critters were shaped differently by their warband but fill the same role.
El Torro wrote: I’ve never paid much attention to Kroot (or Tau in general). The new Kroot boxed set has piqued my interest though, must fight the urge to add to my pile of shame.
I like the look of these new Hounds specifically. Looking at the current models on the GW website they look pretty goofy by comparison. I’m not sure why there’s a fair bit of negativity about them in this thread. Apart from the usual “new things are bad” negativity of course.
You are clearly aware that there's quite a significant design change, people are allowed to dislike that and prefer the older style. Don't make out that the only reason anyone would dislike it is because it's a new thing.
While my last sentence was admittedly a bit flippant I was just pointing out my disdain for the current (now old) sculpts. Having another look now I can't see why anyone wouldn't applaud their delist. Yes, the new models are definitely a design shift, we have what we have though. I agree that this is just my opinion, others are free to agree or disagree. The paint job / photo of the models on the GW website might also affect my judgement.
In other news: I'm going to spend the rest of this evening looking up the pros and cons of running a pure Kroot army. My wallet hopes my conclusion is that it's not for me...
In other news: I'm going to spend the rest of this evening looking up the pros and cons of running a pure Kroot army. My wallet hopes my conclusion is that it's not for me...
Don't bother doing that right now. We know that there's big things coming with the new book; of which is a way to run a bigger version of a pure Kroot detachment.
In other news: I'm going to spend the rest of this evening looking up the pros and cons of running a pure Kroot army. My wallet hopes my conclusion is that it's not for me...
Don't bother doing that right now. We know that there's big things coming with the new book; of which is a way to run a bigger version of a pure Kroot detachment.
But... but... if I have to wait for the codex how will I know if I want to snatch up the Kroot boxed set?? I guess I'll just have to buy it anyway, can't handle the FOMO
nels1031 wrote: If I was GW, I would've revealed these with the rest of the kits previously revealed, and their flaws would've been overshadowed.
Hopefully, the kit comes with more head options, as there looks to be no variety.
I expect it to be like the flesh hounds kit in that regard. Completely fixed but there are some other kits where you can get a few different sculpts to make the unit a little more lively.
Lord Damocles wrote: Just because you can sculpt muscles on every surface, doesn't mean that you should...
I really thought GW learned that lesson with the Minotaurs for Beastmen in 7th/8th edition of WHFB, but I guess it makes sense that they need a periodic reminder.
Snord wrote: These look…off. I think they’re too muscular - and the sculpting of the musculature is very unnatural. Maybe a trainee did them.
They look like Kroot that have evolved into Kroothounds, therefore some of their anatomy looks like it should be on a biped and not a quadruped. I like that attention to their background.
Very much agree with this. The old kroothounds are cool as alien canines analogues. These look more like what kroothounds are actually supposed to be.
So are we getting Codex: Cannibal Chickens from Space, or are they just additions to the Tau dex.
Honestly I never liked them there, their weapons, uniforms and general look just don't mesh. I know GW is going for a colonial auxiliary look but usually the 'natives' will have some gear from the colonials.
Kroot have always looked like a whole other army concept mashed into the Tau. Which, as it happens, is exactly what happened. Same with the C'tan and the Necrons.
Not a fan of the new sculpts. The old had a wolfhound look to them - sleek and lean enough to look like they were hunting you down to eat you then and there.
These look like steroid-ripped rottweilers who use their eye muscles to pin you to the ground, and I'm just not feeling it.
I also prefer the older sculpt but just as there are differences in Terran Canines I suppose there can be differences in Kroot Hounds. Admittedly, I am happy to see GW giving Kroot some attention.
I'm not a fan of the kroothounds as they've gone too anthropomorphic for my tastes and look like hunched over bodybuilders in kroot cosplay. I like the others though.
Would you look at that. Somebody didn't skip leg day.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So are we getting Codex: Cannibal Chickens from Space, or are they just additions to the Tau dex.
Honestly I never liked them there, their weapons, uniforms and general look just don't mesh. I know GW is going for a colonial auxiliary look but usually the 'natives' will have some gear from the colonials.
Kroot have always looked like a whole other army concept mashed into the Tau. Which, as it happens, is exactly what happened. Same with the C'tan and the Necrons.
They're in Codex Tau.
I thought the trouble with Kroot as part of the Tau army was that GW half-assed the auxiliary part of the army and then abandoned it for a few editions while they focused on making giant robots. Would have looked a lot better with greater variety. Kroot had it good by comparison. Vespids got dodhy sculpts and really bad rules. Gue'vesa only ever got a unit entry in White Dwarf before they migrated over to Forge World. So much for variety.
I agree that they'd benefit from a little more gear. Somebody at GW recognized the potential of that idea back in the day. The Kroot Shaper was allowed a pulse rifle. The Vespid squad leader wears a Tau mind control helmet. But it never amounted to much. Makes it all the more questionable that Gue'vesa were sidelined since Guardmen take Fire Warrior helmets, grenades and shoulder pads fairly well and largely without much in the way of conversion. They'd have that blend of their own look while tying into the rest of the Tau aesthetic.
Kroot and Tau are confirmed to have been pitched as separate army ideas, before the Studio settled on what we have now.
Source for this can be found in the Link Tank over in General Discussion. Can’t remember exactly which video though, but they’re all pretty interesting.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So are we getting Codex: Cannibal Chickens from Space, or are they just additions to the Tau dex.
Honestly I never liked them there, their weapons, uniforms and general look just don't mesh. I know GW is going for a colonial auxiliary look but usually the 'natives' will have some gear from the colonials.
Kroot have always looked like a whole other army concept mashed into the Tau. Which, as it happens, is exactly what happened. Same with the C'tan and the Necrons.
Tau Codex which includes a Kroot detachment.
Geifer wrote: Would you look at that. Somebody didn't skip leg day.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So are we getting Codex: Cannibal Chickens from Space, or are they just additions to the Tau dex.
Honestly I never liked them there, their weapons, uniforms and general look just don't mesh. I know GW is going for a colonial auxiliary look but usually the 'natives' will have some gear from the colonials.
Kroot have always looked like a whole other army concept mashed into the Tau. Which, as it happens, is exactly what happened. Same with the C'tan and the Necrons.
They're in Codex Tau.
I thought the trouble with Kroot as part of the Tau army was that GW half-assed the auxiliary part of the army and then abandoned it for a few editions while they focused on making giant robots. Would have looked a lot better with greater variety. Kroot had it good by comparison. Vespids got dodhy sculpts and really bad rules. Gue'vesa only ever got a unit entry in White Dwarf before they migrated over to Forge World. So much for variety.
I agree that they'd benefit from a little more gear. Somebody at GW recognized the potential of that idea back in the day. The Kroot Shaper was allowed a pulse rifle. The Vespid squad leader wears a Tau mind control helmet. But it never amounted to much. Makes it all the more questionable that Gue'vesa were sidelined since Guardmen take Fire Warrior helmets, grenades and shoulder pads fairly well and largely without much in the way of conversion. They'd have that blend of their own look while tying into the rest of the Tau aesthetic.
Agreed. I think the Vespid were a good step in the right direction to how to make the concept work - they weren't Tau but they were styled in a way that meshed with the rest of the army. They should have kept going further in that direction and added additional units (of Kroot/Vespid and other auxiliaries) following that same aesthetic style to tie it together. Instead they doubled down on mini-gundams (which, yknow, is a valid choice... but it made the army seem somewhat one-dimensional and overly-gimmicky).
I don't dislike the Kroots low tech space-savage style, but it doesn't (in my view) work with the rest of the Tau army. Its really a look and concept that should have been explored as a standalone/separate kroot mercs army.
Olthannon wrote: I've never collected them but I think Kroot are my favourite 40k race. They look awesome, interesting lore, cool ideas behind their genetics.
Their home world is called Peck.
The new minis look great, I hope for some more newer units. Maybe a bizzarro vehicle or chariot.
It sounds silly, but I often thought the idea of a kroot chariot with artillery would be cool. Nothing too large, just about the size of a dreadnought laying down. Something about St.5, AP1, heavy 6, indirect fire, ignores cover. 1-3 per squad.
cuda1179 wrote: It sounds silly, but I often thought the idea of a kroot chariot with artillery would be cool. Nothing too large, just about the size of a dreadnought laying down. Something about St.5, AP1, heavy 6, indirect fire, ignores cover. 1-3 per squad.
Given the models we've seen - or those that have been hinted - bashing something like that together should be very possible.
Kroot and Tau are confirmed to have been pitched as separate army ideas, before the Studio settled on what we have now.
Source for this can be found in the Link Tank over in General Discussion. Can’t remember exactly which video though, but they’re all pretty interesting.
I love all the stuff in the Krootbox- that Krootox in particular. He doesn't look like an animal- he looks like a respected member of the flock, whose thoughts and feelings are as important to his companions as his considerable strength.
On the hounds? I see the point of people who prefer the old sculpt... But personally, I feel like the old sculpts didn't visually communicate the "these are actually members of the same species" as well as the new sculpts do. When I look at the new hounds, I don't need the book to tell me they are the same species- I can see it in the models themselves.
As for the suggestions that Kroot use more Tau equipment, or have fewer units in order to better facilitate the alien auxiliary concept, again I see the point- it's valid. I just disagree. I think it speaks volumes about the ambiguity of the so called "Greater Good" and I think that's intentional. In 9th, it was clear that of all Tau septs, only the Da'lyth truly respected the Kroot as equals.
What I would prefer is for them to release 3 Vespid units instead of one, so that Vespid are more balanced with Kroot as an auxiliary. I say units, because it is possible for one box to supply the models for all three datasheets. So I'd be looking for a generic HQ, an elite unit and a battle line unit. And then I'd like to see them do the same for Demiurg to round out the Auxilary/ Mercenary component of the Tau army. These Demiurg would do double duty, as I'd also want the unit to be usable in a Leagues of Votann army.
I admit that all of that is unlikely... But it is how I would prefer GW to deal with disparities in the alien auxiliary concept that arise from Kroot being over-represented and equipped according to their own cultural norms, rather than those of their supposed allies, who are mostly paying them lipservice to benefit from a steady supply of cannon fodder.
We haven't seen the Carnivore sprues yet, right? I wonder if there will be Tau equipment on there as options, so you could build them according to how enmeshed with the Tau you want them to be.
The current marketing angle seems to be Kroot as an independent army.
The current marketing angle seems to be Kroot as an independent army.
And yet they come packaged with a limited edition Tau Codex, one which has cropped the majority of the actual Kroot off the original artwork.
Incidentally, I was looking at the warcom article from back when the farstalker kindred was announced that I don't remember seeing before. IIRC I think they were inspired by the old Kroot mercs Codex, which had conversions that were similar to these, but I'm pretty sure the artwork is new. Hints that maybe they are working long term on a mercs dex (would guess maybe 11th/12th edition if it happens)?
IIRC the Green Kroot (Kroorks?) were the only option worth taking. With T3 6+ melee specialists you needed the T4 that an ork-rich diet would give you.
The current marketing angle seems to be Kroot as an independent army.
And yet they come packaged with a limited edition Tau Codex, one which has cropped the majority of the actual Kroot off the original artwork.
Incidentally, I was looking at the warcom article from back when the farstalker kindred was announced that I don't remember seeing before. IIRC I think they were inspired by the old Kroot mercs Codex, which had conversions that were similar to these, but I'm pretty sure the artwork is new. Hints that maybe they are working long term on a mercs dex (would guess maybe 11th/12th edition if it happens)?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: So are we getting Codex: Cannibal Chickens from Space, or are they just additions to the Tau dex.
Honestly I never liked them there, their weapons, uniforms and general look just don't mesh. I know GW is going for a colonial auxiliary look but usually the 'natives' will have some gear from the colonials.
Kroot have always looked like a whole other army concept mashed into the Tau. Which, as it happens, is exactly what happened. Same with the C'tan and the Necrons.
Technically the Kroot rifles had been upgraded with pulse rounds and there was a Shaper model with pulse rifle. Not much though.
I think Kroot are more akin to irregulars than recruited colonial troops in aesthetics. However, Kroot are also an advanced, space-faring race in their own right despite the appearance, so that does go some way to explaining how they kept more of their cultural trappings.
ubik2000 wrote: We haven't seen the Carnivore sprues yet, right? I wonder if there will be Tau equipment on there as options, so you could build them according to how enmeshed with the Tau you want them to be.
The current marketing angle seems to be Kroot as an independent army.
Optional Tau-styled bits would be the best solution. I'm not sure that's going to happen, though.
I'd expect naked Kroot with few if any options on as small a sprue as GW can fit a squad of ten. Kind of like Chaos Cultists. While they're adding breadth to the Kroot part of the Tau army, I don't see them committing many resources to the basic infantry model for what is only an auxiliary part of the main army.
I wouldn't mind if GW proved me wrong, though.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: IIRC the Green Kroot (Kroorks?) were the only option worth taking. With T3 6+ melee specialists you needed the T4 that an ork-rich diet would give you.
Vultures were popular and usually all three Fast Attack choices were maxed out due to the combination of infiltrate, jump packs and an eviscerator option for the Shaper for hard hitting first turn charges.
I actually like the fact the Tau and Kroot look very different. It makes them look like independent auxiliaries which fits their lore. The Vespid were more heavily brought under the Tau wing in contrast, it makes sense their kit is more Tau.
Kroot and Tau are confirmed to have been pitched as separate army ideas, before the Studio settled on what we have now.
Source for this can be found in the Link Tank over in General Discussion. Can’t remember exactly which video though, but they’re all pretty interesting.
I still have the WD where that's discussed somewhere around here.
Even before the battle begins, Trail Shapers can pull a fast one over their opponents by launching a Kroot Ambush. They, the unit they join, and a whole other Kroot unit melt into the background and reappear where they’re least expected – taking advantage of the Scouts 7” rule shared by almost all Kroot to pressure vulnerable troops away from their objectives.
There was a nice little rules note in there too. Scouts 7" on "almost all Kroot".
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lord_blackfang wrote: I thought Shapers shaped Kroot. But this guy is just a Kroot who shapes trails?
They're seemingly breaking different spheres of responsibility out for the different Shapers.
The War Shaper(the one in the army set) is a "field commander".
The Trail Shaper is a tactician.
Also worth noting that the 'shaping' aspect of kroot society is almost entirely an off-battlefield thing. It takes too much time for the ingested flesh to manifest as physical changes. So they're focusing the rules around their battlefield roles as leaders of groups of kroot, and setting up a ranking system which previously we only had a few hints at in the fluff.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It does feel like if one doesn’t mind a bit of repitition, you could now field a pure Kroot force.
They just need to add Vultures, Knarloc riders and the Great Knarloc, and it will be a really fun, standalone, army.
Vultures are kinda cool, but I think it is best to leave them out so Vespid can have their own niche.
They both could be viable - heavily armed and armored vs lightly armed and armored, one good vs elites and one vs hordes.
I mean, Dark Eldar have two distinctly different jump pack troops that fill different niches, and they are from the same species. Kroot vs Vespid should be easy enough to justify, especially considering the demand.
Haighus wrote: However, Kroot are also an advanced, space-faring race in their own right despite the appearance, so that does go some way to explaining how they kept more of their cultural trappings.
That was explained in the background twenty years ago. Eating some Orks (Mekboyz) made them able to build cities and spacecraft. Then another Ork invasion hit them hard and their only successful resistance was the old guerilla tactic, until the Tau saved them. They abandoned their cities (though kept the surviving spacecraft) to live like in the old days in the woods.
Dysartes wrote: There had better be a fez in this theoretical Vulture kit, though.
Okay, I want in on the joke. What's with the fez fetish (what the fez?)?
When they printed the original Kroot Mercenaries army list back in t'day, they'd obviously converted models to show what you could do for the new units introduced with the army list, such as the Vultures.
At the edge of one of the pictures showing the Vultures was a Kroot Vulture wearing a fez - and I still believe that Kroot to be the unit leader, regardless of what anyone else may say.
As these things go, it falls under the heading of "funny, and as far as I'm aware, completely harmless", so if they do do a Kroot Vulture kit, I'd like to see it return as an optional head.
Haighus wrote: However, Kroot are also an advanced, space-faring race in their own right despite the appearance, so that does go some way to explaining how they kept more of their cultural trappings.
That was explained in the background twenty years ago. Eating some Orks (Mekboyz) made them able to build cities and spacecraft. Then another Ork invasion hit them hard and their only successful resistance was the old guerilla tactic, until the Tau saved them. They abandoned their cities (though kept the surviving spacecraft) to live like in the old days in the woods.
Was this in a novel or campaign book? I can't find any details like this in the old Army books, other than Pech was their homeworld and they used Warspheres for their mercenary gigs.
Love the Kroot head riflestock, I appreciate the little things they're adding to the Shapers to make them more characterful without making them too flashy
Vultures break the basic rule of changing the number of limbs, unless you're going the way of the flying nids and adapting feet into weapon arms.
Save those sprues for a big weapons platform/transport Pech'zilla/Apech'asaurus and leave the Knarlocs in legends to be taken alongside the new stuff in their own niche.
cuda1179 wrote: While I really like the way they went with Shapers I was kinda hoping that Kroot Carnivore squads would get a squad sergeant again.
There's option to get the guy with the hound pup and more 'Farstalker' level of leathers, and perhaps another with a raised sword and some extra armour, so there might be some level of "Kindred shaper".
The builds that they've shown off in the new Kroot set just don't have any Tau tech with them - I almost wonder if that could end up being an alternative to the netguns. Pulse carbine and markerlight to let them join in with the observer mechanic the others get perhaps, but what we're being shown is the models set up for the pure Kroot kindred force so they've left those options off.
Haighus wrote: However, Kroot are also an advanced, space-faring race in their own right despite the appearance, so that does go some way to explaining how they kept more of their cultural trappings.
That was explained in the background twenty years ago. Eating some Orks (Mekboyz) made them able to build cities and spacecraft. Then another Ork invasion hit them hard and their only successful resistance was the old guerilla tactic, until the Tau saved them. They abandoned their cities (though kept the surviving spacecraft) to live like in the old days in the woods.
Was this in a novel or campaign book? I can't find any details like this in the old Army books, other than Pech was their homeworld and they used Warspheres for their mercenary gigs.
It was the Index Xenos article in WD. #264 in UK, maybe different in US.
I wish I could have picked up a Great Knarlock. I was too poor back in the day. The best I got was winning a Lizard man miniature (looked like a Lizardman riding a giant Cold-One) as a door prize, and then swapping out a spare Kroot torso and head I had.
Lone-spears ride strange chameleonic creatures called Kalamandras, whose ability to alter their skin colour and move through tough terrain unhindered makes them the perfect mount for expert hunters. Their speed and strength let them keep up with packs of Kroot Hounds, guiding them to fight more effectively and capture far-flung objectives.
They wield explosive-tipped javelins, whose charges can blast apart armoured troops. They’re a convenient weapon to hurl while riding at speed, and a lucky hit on a tank can do significant damage.
Others opt for the Kroot long gun, a pinpoint accurate rifle that fires heavy rounds over extreme ranges. Experienced Lone-spears can even pick individual soldiers out of crowded fortifications, striking down medics and weapon teams to remove daunting obstacles from the path of the kinband.
god, this new kroot range is so cool. it's way more than i would've expected for kroot getting a refresh. it feels like they're halfway to being their own army at this point (although i think it's definitely for the best that they'll be remaining with tau because that way, the half of the army they have won't feel neglected like votann or WE. it's where something like this should be)
Do not like fleshy lizard horse. Doesn't scream something I'd want to ride into battle tbh and honestly is very confusing in terms of texture/anatomy imo. Not enough of any flavour of creature - yes, its a fictional alien beastie, but it looks like a poor knock off of the merwrym/basilisk.
The head and tail on the Kalamandras remind me of a Mexican Walking Fish or Axolotl.
Kroot range refresh is looking very good. Thinking if they're only designed as allies or over time could become something more. Makes me wonder if they'll ever do Eldar Exodites and what they would look like too.
Dudeface wrote: Do not like fleshy lizard horse. Doesn't scream something I'd want to ride into battle tbh and honestly is very confusing in terms of texture/anatomy imo. Not enough of any flavour of creature - yes, its a fictional alien beastie, but it looks like a poor knock off of the merwrym/basilisk.
i disagree with your point about anatomy, but now that you bring it up, it definitely feels like something out of AOS. i could see an ork or chaos guy riding this into battle
Interesting how they have clearly taken inspiration from the old Kroot trackers unit, but switched the lore to a loner on a chameleon rather than a squad riding gnarlocs.
I think it looks good but would prefer a more Kroot-y mount.
Dudeface wrote: Do not like fleshy lizard horse. Doesn't scream something I'd want to ride into battle tbh and honestly is very confusing in terms of texture/anatomy imo. Not enough of any flavour of creature - yes, its a fictional alien beastie, but it looks like a poor knock off of the merwrym/basilisk.
i disagree with your point about anatomy, but now that you bring it up, it definitely feels like something out of AOS. i could see an ork or chaos guy riding this into battle
I don't know, it looks like it'll struggle to climb with no grabbing surface on the claws and no digits, maybe be OK at swimming but it'll have to reply on the heavy tail. In terms of land locomotion the rear legs being that much longer will put a lot of stress down it's spine, hence the shoe horn shape. whilst the front limbs will have to shuffle along at an almost comical pace to keep up without throwing off the rider.
I'm not any form of zoologist or biologist, but it just looks wildly impractical to me. I do agree it looks like something from the idoneth range though.
I don't know, it looks like it'll struggle to climb with no grabbing surface on the claws and no digits, maybe be OK at swimming but it'll have to reply on the heavy tail. In terms of land locomotion the rear legs being that much longer will put a lot of stress down it's spine, hence the shoe horn shape. whilst the front limbs will have to shuffle along at an almost comical pace to keep up without throwing off the rider.
I'm not any form of zoologist or biologist, but it just looks wildly impractical to me. I do agree it looks like something from the idoneth range though.
Those front legs aren't shorter than the back, they might even be longer- this thing is just in a crouch. The upper part of its forelimbs are almost horizontal, and they're skewed out for a wide stance too; if it rotated its upper arm 90 degrees and put it's feet directly under its shoulders it would be at least as tall in front as behind. The pose to me looks like it was tracking, nose to the ground and then it heard a noise, so it lifted its head without lifting the body.
As for the claws, I think that's kinda legit. I mean, it can curl its knuckles, so there's some grip, but it could be stronger. Overall though, I really like it. The "Lone" in its name suggest to me that while it can keep up with hounds, it's probably meant to be used as a lone operative. I hope there are two builds, because if it is a lone operative I might want two.
GW wrote:Lone-spears ride strange chameleonic creatures called Kalamandras, whose ability to alter their skin colour and move through tough terrain unhindered makes them the perfect mount for expert hunters.
I doubt that. But if the Kroot makes vroom vroom noises, it's going to look like he's riding an invisible motorcycle. That's bound to cause some confusion among the ranks of the enemy.
Dryaktylus wrote: New Kroot riding a Newt-Kroot. Well, if it is a Kroot relative at all.
My takeaway is that it's not a species of Kroot and that it's so on purpose. The rider is supposed to be antisocial. To me it makes more sense if he steers clear of all his relatives, not just the chatty ones.
I don't know, it looks like it'll struggle to climb with no grabbing surface on the claws and no digits, maybe be OK at swimming but it'll have to reply on the heavy tail. In terms of land locomotion the rear legs being that much longer will put a lot of stress down it's spine, hence the shoe horn shape. whilst the front limbs will have to shuffle along at an almost comical pace to keep up without throwing off the rider.
I'm not any form of zoologist or biologist, but it just looks wildly impractical to me. I do agree it looks like something from the idoneth range though.
Those front legs aren't shorter than the back, they might even be longer- this thing is just in a crouch. The upper part of its forelimbs are almost horizontal, and they're skewed out for a wide stance too; if it rotated its upper arm 90 degrees and put it's feet directly under its shoulders it would be at least as tall in front as behind. The pose to me looks like it was tracking, nose to the ground and then it heard a noise, so it lifted its head without lifting the body.
As for the claws, I think that's kinda legit. I mean, it can curl its knuckles, so there's some grip, but it could be stronger. Overall though, I really like it. The "Lone" in its name suggest to me that while it can keep up with hounds, it's probably meant to be used as a lone operative. I hope there are two builds, because if it is a lone operative I might want two.
Unsure those pics seem to very clearly show the limbs in line and the front ones as shorter, hence the curved back. Either way it doesn't ding my dong but I'm glad it does for others, I just live in camp "would rather it was a knarloc"
That might be the best critter GW has ever done, at least in the horse+1 category. Looks like something straight out of modern Star Wars, but in a good way.
The page before you click on the article says it’s the final Kroot reveal. I’m not sure it’s fair to be disappointed, because it’s a good range and all the models are great, but I was hoping for a big Knarloc or something to round it off.
ImAGeek wrote: The page before you click on the article says it’s the final Kroot reveal. I’m not sure it’s fair to be disappointed, because it’s a good range and all the models are great, but I was hoping for a big Knarloc or something to round it off.
Biggest problem here is how much competition there's going to be to actually place an order on launch day. The queue to get on the storefront is going to be looong.
ImAGeek wrote: The page before you click on the article says it’s the final Kroot reveal. I’m not sure it’s fair to be disappointed, because it’s a good range and all the models are great, but I was hoping for a big Knarloc or something to round it off.
Heh, I was convinced we were getting kroot artillery of some sort, but guess not. Seems like they are still lacking in the department of something that will hit really hard to make mono kroot truly viable
chaos0xomega wrote: Heh, I was convinced we were getting kroot artillery of some sort, but guess not. Seems like they are still lacking in the department of something that will hit really hard to make mono kroot truly viable
Start writing in now for a Kroot Combat Patrol listing, would be fun to have!
chaos0xomega wrote: Heh, I was convinced we were getting kroot artillery of some sort, but guess not. Seems like they are still lacking in the department of something that will hit really hard to make mono kroot truly viable
Maybe they'll get an extra wave in 11th edition, and a few more things to expand the range out.
chaos0xomega wrote: Heh, I was convinced we were getting kroot artillery of some sort, but guess not. Seems like they are still lacking in the department of something that will hit really hard to make mono kroot truly viable
Maybe they'll get an extra wave in 11th edition, and a few more things to expand the range out.
Kroot are awesome, but I hope the 11th ed Tau wave is focused on Vespid and a tank refresh.
The whole refresh was unexpectedly big, but if that's the end for now, I do regret the lack of winged or otherwise divergent Kroot. Their whole gimmick is adaptive physiology, it would be nice to see that actually in action.
I've really enjoyed most of these new Kroot models, although I'm still not sold on the latest Kroothounds. This one is nice, but I don't really understand why he isn't just riding a Knarloc. Some proper Knarloc riders would have rounded out this new range nicely. This model just seems like a bit of an outlier (I know that's what he's meant to be, but I mean visually). Hopefully the new models sell well and GW crank out some more.
chaos0xomega wrote: Heh, I was convinced we were getting kroot artillery of some sort, but guess not. Seems like they are still lacking in the department of something that will hit really hard to make mono kroot truly viable
Maybe they'll get an extra wave in 11th edition, and a few more things to expand the range out.
Kroot are awesome, but I hope the 11th ed Tau wave is focused on Vespid and a tank refresh.
Vespid are rumoured for Kill Team this year anyway.
Is it? I do t think forgeworld has done any 40k model expansion in years. Now it’s primarily specialist games and horus heresy. They haven’t done any big aos monster or 40k thing in so long
Forgeworld hasn't even got any AoS models, they stripped them out entirely (esp so since they removed the greater demon models there was nothing left for AoS (though I've some hope that Old World might bring them back). Even before they did that the only AoS they did was a set of heads for stormcast - nothing else! Every other AoS model was an Old World one.
40K has similarly had very little added over the last few years, but it has had models removed. Last pass they even removed the Malanthrope and Diamichton from Tyranids.
In general FW has been working on 30K and the whole specialist games line. With a mix of plastics and resin models.
The days when FW was expanding models lines for 40K have been gone for a good while. Though even then it was very random what they did - eg Imperials got a LOT; Tau also got a big chunk; however many other factions got very little to nothing. Dark Eldar had 1 model and an upgrade kit; but otherwise nothing much whilst Eldar got a BIG chunk of models. Orks also once had a good chunk; but Tyranids have had rather little.
There is a general hope that many of the FW models might get plastic conversions; but the speed at which GW releases those and the chance of them doing is very very random.
Is Forge World still a thing? They seem to have been fully rolled back into GW proper.
Tyranids had a lot of FW releases in conjunction with Imperial Armour 4: The Amphelion Project, or in the years prior.
However, these were for the older Tyranid aesthetic visible in the Hierodule models, and also included several models that now have plastic kits (like the Trygon). There were also upgrade parts for plastic kits like Hive Tyrant weapons and the Stonecrusher Carnifex.
Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Chaos, Orks, Craftworld and Corsair Eldar, Tyranids, and Tau all had good FW ranges at one point- basically it depended on if your faction featured in an Imperial Armour book. Necrons were more limited but their book (IA12) was as FW was winding down for 40k and swinging into the Horus Heresy games. Other Imperial factions got a sprinkling of kits. Dark Eldar were very limited as mentioned- they had some stuff that didn't age well with the 5th ed range refresh and a couple of newer kits. Maybe they would of gotten more love if FW ever got round to writing them into an Imperial Armour.
Overread wrote: Forgeworld hasn't even got any AoS models, they stripped them out entirely (esp so since they removed the greater demon models there was nothing left for AoS (though I've some hope that Old World might bring them back). Even before they did that the only AoS they did was a set of heads for stormcast - nothing else! Every other AoS model was an Old World one.
40K has similarly had very little added over the last few years, but it has had models removed. Last pass they even removed the Malanthrope and Diamichton from Tyranids.
In general FW has been working on 30K and the whole specialist games line. With a mix of plastics and resin models.
The days when FW was expanding models lines for 40K have been gone for a good while. Though even then it was very random what they did - eg Imperials got a LOT; Tau also got a big chunk; however many other factions got very little to nothing. Dark Eldar had 1 model and an upgrade kit;
Actually, Dark Eldar had THREE models and an upgrade kit. The Tantalus, Raven fighter, Razorwing lite bomber.
Yeah Forgeworld is dead, (long live Forgeworld!). The idea of random variant models or cool additional stuff from the lore doesn’t fit with GW’s current “vision” for 40K; everything should be built exactly as the box art and there will only be rules for those options.
Whilst some of the choices GW has made are annoying (taking away double twin devourers on hive tyrants - taking away ALL close combat weapons on warriors - which are still all in the freaking box!) its honestly a good thing that "what's in the box is what's in the rules".
IT makes conversion optional instead of mandatory.
I prefer this over the 4-5th edition wave of codex with ever more whole models (not just weapons) that never EVER got a model for them.
Conversion should always be an option
GW does have some very annoying or odd takes on it - eg 10th editions free upgrades meaning that every gaunt unit should take the option weapons instead of making them a specialist choice for unique effects and such and an actual "think about the choice if you want spike rifiles or the webcaster" etc
I'm looking forward to the Kroot vs Catachan battle report on Warhammer+. I don't normally pay much attention to the battle reports on Warhammer+ but if this match up doesn't get me engaged I don't know what will.
Biggest question I have is which 4 units are up for the chop. The index has 37 datasheets, the new card set is listed as 38, with 4 new units with Kroot (treating the Warshaper as a direct swap for the current Shaper). My suspicions lead me to losing the Longstrike sniper team, Aun'shi, Longstrike, and the standard Crisis commander, as most are currently out of stock online, and the Crisis commander isn't available outside of the team kit.
warl0rdb0b wrote: Biggest question I have is which 4 units are up for the chop. The index has 37 datasheets, the new card set is listed as 38, with 4 new units with Kroot (treating the Warshaper as a direct swap for the current Shaper). My suspicions lead me to losing the Longstrike sniper team, Aun'shi, Longstrike, and the standard Crisis commander, as most are currently out of stock online, and the Crisis commander isn't available outside of the team kit.
Aun'va is fine caste and dead in the background so I'd not be surprised if he didn't make the cut (the model working perfectly well as a Etheral on hoverdrone). Aun'shi and Longstrike I definitely think are going to be gone.
Crisis and Enforcer being combined into one could make sense, but they do like their different styles of commanders giving different leadership bonuses to the units they are attached to.
I think you could probably save a fair bit of space by consolidating the the Tidewall's sheets as the Gunrig isn't even in the store anymore.
But I can't see the sniper drones getting dropped - have we lost that many units in the past due to the finecast transition? Thought it was mostly special characters (who could conceivably be downgraded to regular characters or fancy squad sergeants/regular tank commanders).
warl0rdb0b wrote: Biggest question I have is which 4 units are up for the chop. The index has 37 datasheets, the new card set is listed as 38, with 4 new units with Kroot (treating the Warshaper as a direct swap for the current Shaper). My suspicions lead me to losing the Longstrike sniper team, Aun'shi, Longstrike, and the standard Crisis commander, as most are currently out of stock online, and the Crisis commander isn't available outside of the team kit.
Aun'va is fine caste and dead in the background so I'd not be surprised if he didn't make the cut (the model working perfectly well as a Etheral on hoverdrone). Aun'shi and Longstrike I definitely think are going to be gone.
Crisis and Enforcer being combined into one could make sense, but they do like their different styles of commanders giving different leadership bonuses to the units they are attached to.
I think you could probably save a fair bit of space by consolidating the the Tidewall's sheets as the Gunrig isn't even in the store anymore.
But I can't see the sniper drones getting dropped - have we lost that many units in the past due to the finecast transition? Thought it was mostly special characters (who could conceivably be downgraded to regular characters or fancy squad sergeants/regular tank commanders).
Crisis getting combined into one makes even more sense with the different commanders, since each commander effectively turns the base crisis squad into an entirely different thing.
warl0rdb0b wrote: Biggest question I have is which 4 units are up for the chop. The index has 37 datasheets, the new card set is listed as 38, with 4 new units with Kroot (treating the Warshaper as a direct swap for the current Shaper). My suspicions lead me to losing the Longstrike sniper team, Aun'shi, Longstrike, and the standard Crisis commander, as most are currently out of stock online, and the Crisis commander isn't available outside of the team kit.
Aun'va is fine caste and dead in the background so I'd not be surprised if he didn't make the cut (the model working perfectly well as a Etheral on hoverdrone). Aun'shi and Longstrike I definitely think are going to be gone.
Crisis and Enforcer being combined into one could make sense, but they do like their different styles of commanders giving different leadership bonuses to the units they are attached to.
I think you could probably save a fair bit of space by consolidating the the Tidewall's sheets as the Gunrig isn't even in the store anymore.
But I can't see the sniper drones getting dropped - have we lost that many units in the past due to the finecast transition? Thought it was mostly special characters (who could conceivably be downgraded to regular characters or fancy squad sergeants/regular tank commanders).
Crisis getting combined into one makes even more sense with the different commanders, since each commander effectively turns the base crisis squad into an entirely different thing.
That feels like a very 10th ed feature to me, rather than a relic of previous editions (even if it kind of existed before as an aura for Tau commanders).
warl0rdb0b wrote: Biggest question I have is which 4 units are up for the chop. The index has 37 datasheets, the new card set is listed as 38, with 4 new units with Kroot (treating the Warshaper as a direct swap for the current Shaper). My suspicions lead me to losing the Longstrike sniper team, Aun'shi, Longstrike, and the standard Crisis commander, as most are currently out of stock online, and the Crisis commander isn't available outside of the team kit.
Aun'va is fine caste and dead in the background so I'd not be surprised if he didn't make the cut (the model working perfectly well as a Etheral on hoverdrone). Aun'shi and Longstrike I definitely think are going to be gone.
Crisis and Enforcer being combined into one could make sense, but they do like their different styles of commanders giving different leadership bonuses to the units they are attached to.
I think you could probably save a fair bit of space by consolidating the the Tidewall's sheets as the Gunrig isn't even in the store anymore.
But I can't see the sniper drones getting dropped - have we lost that many units in the past due to the finecast transition? Thought it was mostly special characters (who could conceivably be downgraded to regular characters or fancy squad sergeants/regular tank commanders).
Crisis getting combined into one makes even more sense with the different commanders, since each commander effectively turns the base crisis squad into an entirely different thing.
That feels like a very 10th ed feature to me, rather than a relic of previous editions (even if it kind of existed before as an aura for Tau commanders).
Well, with the 3 Crisis team datasheets being added in place of the old flexible sheet, seems T'au are losing 7 old sheets, not counting the known Shaper and Crisis team ones. Might be a full cull of finecast, and consolidation of the terrain into one sheet after all.
Since we’re on the topic, let’s talk about Crisis Battlesuits. One of the coolest things about the current edition of Warhammer 40,000 is that every unit gets its own special ability. While this is great for most, it hits a snag when massively flexible models need an ability that suits every possible loadout. After all, a bonus that’s ideal for close-range flamers might not be nearly as effective for long-range missile pods.
Imperial strategists have addressed this issue by spreading flexible tanks like the Leman Russ or Gladiator across different datasheets, and the T’au are nothing if not quick learners.The new Codex: T’au Empire splits Crisis Battlesuits into three distinct datasheets based around classic configurations,* and veteran T’au commanders might recognise a few names from lore of yore…
The Sunforge configuration melts down heavy targets with twin fusion blasters, Fireknife battlesuits mix and match plasma rifles and missile pods to crack elite troops, and Starscythe teams choose from a buffet of burst cannons and flamers to wipe out massed hordes.
They’re all still Crisis battlesuits, but now they get custom abilities that really help out their chosen roles. Take the Crisis Sunforge Battlesuits, for instance – their Sunforge ability helps to mitigate the low rate of fire on their fusion blasters by giving powerful re-rolls against their ideal targets. With the Retaliation Cadre Detachment rule in play, you’re firing Strength 10 shots at AP-5, each dealing D6+2 damage – with a re-roll on both Wound rolls and damage!
These new distinctions have another benefit for battlesuit aficionados. No army can contain the same datasheet more than three times,** but each of these configurations is a different datasheet. That means you can squeeze up to nine Crisis teams into your roster, ready to retaliate as pre-emptively as the Greater Good demands.
Don’t worry if your own Crisis Suits have different armaments. The current datasheet will be added to Legends so you can keep using a more diverse hardpoint combination if you wish.
Commanders can join all three of these new units, and retain their own flexible weapon options – so you can outfit them according to their chosen bodyguard. Their own abilities focus on supporting the entire unit, with the Enforcer Commander lowering the Armour Penetration of incoming fire, while the Coldstar Commander turbo-boosts its allies so they can keep up with its incredible speed.
More T’au Empire rules are on their way, as the awesome Kroot Hunting Pack – which is your first chance to get your hands on Codex: T’au Empire – goes up for pre-order this Saturday.
* This also allows their points costs to more accurately reflect their equipment, rather than the priciest possible loadout.
Anyways...
The items being removed are likely to be:
-Aun'Shi
-Aun'Va
-Commander in Crisis Battlesuit
-Kroot Shaper
-Firesight Team
-Longstrike
-Tactical Drones
These new distinctions have another benefit for battlesuit aficionados. No army can contain the same datasheet more than three times,** but each of these configurations is a different datasheet. That means you can squeeze up to nine Crisis teams into your roster, ready to retaliate as pre-emptively as the Greater Good demands.
AKA hey we made these rules for balance but also these new rules to cheese them.... genius
These new distinctions have another benefit for battlesuit aficionados. No army can contain the same datasheet more than three times,** but each of these configurations is a different datasheet. That means you can squeeze up to nine Crisis teams into your roster, ready to retaliate as pre-emptively as the Greater Good demands.
AKA hey we made these rules for balance but also these new rules to cheese them.... genius
see how GW used to have a "M" stat, then "simplified" the game by removing it, then had to add a stack of "special" rules to let things move at different speeds, before finally bringing the "M" stat back
However. Given they seem aimed as specific battlefield roles (tanks, light vehicles and heavy infantry, chaff infantry) it may not be the impact I first imagine, if people tended to spec into those loadouts anyway?
However. Given they seem aimed as specific battlefield roles (tanks, light vehicles and heavy infantry, chaff infantry) it may not be the impact I first imagine, if people tended to spec into those loadouts anyway?
from what I have seen in recent times the general spec load out was either 3x plasma guns or 3x CIB (which it seems are flat out not an option any more, not included in the kit).
so it seems you are probably fine if you magnetised them, or are starting a new army, otherwise "sucks to be you"
sad sign of how the edition is though, flexibility is bad m'kay.. you will build as you are told to
However. Given they seem aimed as specific battlefield roles (tanks, light vehicles and heavy infantry, chaff infantry) it may not be the impact I first imagine, if people tended to spec into those loadouts anyway?
from what I have seen in recent times the general spec load out was either 3x plasma guns or 3x CIB (which it seems are flat out not an option any more, not included in the kit).
so it seems you are probably fine if you magnetised them, or are starting a new army, otherwise "sucks to be you"
sad sign of how the edition is though, flexibility is bad m'kay.. you will build as you are told to
remember always follow the instructions
anyone want a taco?
To be fair the whole "so it seems you are probably fine if you magnetised them, or are starting a new army, otherwise "sucks to be you" has been a staple for years.
Carnifex have gone on-off being able to take two heavy weapons for years. 3rd edition they could, 4th they couldn't and then its flip flopped around since then.
It's one reason I've been big on advising people to magnetize anything a warrior or bigger because GW meses with the weapon loadout legalities all the time with units like that.
IT can be VERY annoying when GW does it and its another symptom of them rebuilding the game every edition. That said 10th is really going hard at it.
Then again I think there's other things coming in too and with armies like Tau and Tyranids where they had a good many variable weapon builds so that they'd have a few models that could do everything with different builds; there's now a very clear move toward giving those units very specific and restricted roles instead of generic. The result is that whereas you had a unit that could do multiple rules depending on loadout; now you've got it restricted to a few, which in theory leaves gaps for GW to add more models to those previous slots.
Tyranids have seen this quite a bit and whilst it can be very annoying I can see the logic in it. Far better honestly than lots of units that can all do the same thing all tripping over each other and functionally ending up with one doing better than the others and thus being the default choice every time.
However. Given they seem aimed as specific battlefield roles (tanks, light vehicles and heavy infantry, chaff infantry) it may not be the impact I first imagine, if people tended to spec into those loadouts anyway?
I don't think anyone ever went burstcannon, flamer, support system if that's what the scythe one ends up being. Burstcannon/s and missile have had their time in the sun as the more generalist (and generally more points efficient) Fireknife, and flamers have been a common "sidearm" to dual missile Deathrains or paired up in a drop unit that is also sprinkled with more generalist guns elsewhere.
Fingers crossed it's two set weapons with the option to pick any third, as that will cover a lot of what people probably have in their collections. Customising the mechs has always been a good 50%+ of online Tau discussion (maybe 90% if you also include people trying to come up with naming systems for them after that), that Battletech style element has felt like quite a significant part of the vibe.
But really this article has cost them at least a Kroot army box sale (who am I kidding, that things going to sell out in 5-10min if not faster), as if that's what they've done to Crisis teams I'll probably continue to sit things out for 10th ed and hope for sanity and costed options to return in 11th.
It looks like there will still be some flexability, just not to the degree of the old datasheet. I dont think it will be strictly burst cannon and flamer, but that as the default and can swap the burst cannon for flamer and vice versa and one per unit can swap the flamer for an airbursting frag, and the unit gets anti infantry rules,
MajorWesJanson wrote: It looks like there will still be some flexability, just not to the degree of the old datasheet. I dont think it will be strictly burst cannon and flamer, but that as the default and can swap the burst cannon for flamer and vice versa and one per unit can swap the flamer for an airbursting frag, and the unit gets anti infantry rules,
I wouldn't hold out hope for that. AFL isn't in the kit, just like CIB isn't.
Tyranid Close Combat Warriors also got a single profile.
I still hold out that that is because GW are sitting on a new kit for them with wings included and they simply used the sprue space for the combat weapons for wings.
Lets face it there's no way to take a unit with multiple weapon profiles and equipment setups that can be represented on the model and then cut out a load of those options without having people with problems.
But its also nothing new. I recall building (actually still got and yet to sell) 2 carnifex with twin heavy weapons in 3rd edition only to see them illegal in 4th. GW have been playing this fiddle for years; 10th is different only in so much that they are hitting EVERY army with a big stick of option reduction.
At the same time the armies are way bigger and GW is releasing far faster. I think GW are honestly sitting on a problem, esp with 40K, of having big, diverse modern plastic armies and having less and less room to take them in. Yes they can rework sculpts and release improved ones; but they need a good length of time for the existing ones to get "old" enough that people want to upgrade.
So what we are seeing is an en-mass simplification of unit profiles in an edition that's clearly just "Power Levels" using points maths. At the same time its likely creating tactical gaps as multi-role units are cut down in function; giving GW room to add more models to armies.
That said I do think 40K is approaching a point where GW is going to have to start spreading out sideways with more armies.
Lets face it there's no way to take a unit with multiple weapon profiles and equipment setups that can be represented on the model and then cut out a load of those options without having people with problems.
But its also nothing new. I recall building (actually still got and yet to sell) 2 carnifex with twin heavy weapons in 3rd edition only to see them illegal in 4th. GW have been playing this fiddle for years; 10th is different only in so much that they are hitting EVERY army with a big stick of option reduction.
At the same time the armies are way bigger and GW is releasing far faster. I think GW are honestly sitting on a problem, esp with 40K, of having big, diverse modern plastic armies and having less and less room to take them in. Yes they can rework sculpts and release improved ones; but they need a good length of time for the existing ones to get "old" enough that people want to upgrade.
So what we are seeing is an en-mass simplification of unit profiles in an edition that's clearly just "Power Levels" using points maths. At the same time its likely creating tactical gaps as multi-role units are cut down in function; giving GW room to add more models to armies.
That said I do think 40K is approaching a point where GW is going to have to start spreading out sideways with more armies.
and tbf i think they're already doing that. since seventh, we've gotten three new flavors of CSM, GSC, Custodians, AdMech, Sisters*, Votann, and Knights. all that, plus purple flavor of CSM on the horizon. that's plenty of armies to add to, especially if they pause making new factions soon and flesh out all the recent armies of the last decade
*they always existed, but were clearly an afterthought until their modern rebirth
Lets face it there's no way to take a unit with multiple weapon profiles and equipment setups that can be represented on the model and then cut out a load of those options without having people with problems.
But its also nothing new. I recall building (actually still got and yet to sell) 2 carnifex with twin heavy weapons in 3rd edition only to see them illegal in 4th. GW have been playing this fiddle for years; 10th is different only in so much that they are hitting EVERY army with a big stick of option reduction.
At the same time the armies are way bigger and GW is releasing far faster. I think GW are honestly sitting on a problem, esp with 40K, of having big, diverse modern plastic armies and having less and less room to take them in. Yes they can rework sculpts and release improved ones; but they need a good length of time for the existing ones to get "old" enough that people want to upgrade.
So what we are seeing is an en-mass simplification of unit profiles in an edition that's clearly just "Power Levels" using points maths. At the same time its likely creating tactical gaps as multi-role units are cut down in function; giving GW room to add more models to armies.
That said I do think 40K is approaching a point where GW is going to have to start spreading out sideways with more armies.
and tbf i think they're already doing that. since seventh, we've gotten three new flavors of CSM, GSC, Custodians, AdMech, Sisters*, Votann, and Knights. all that, plus purple flavor of CSM on the horizon. that's plenty of armies to add to, especially if they pause making new factions soon and flesh out all the recent armies of the last decade
*they always existed, but were clearly an afterthought until their modern rebirth
Honestly more armies with slightly smaller ranges might be better anyway. You'd avoid the eldar situation where they need 20-odd kits you've got to constantly cycle through to update, being able to refresh a range with a couple of medium sized waves every 5 years or so? Much more palatable I'd imagine from their eyes and sometimes for ours.
Honestly I think part of the issue 40K has with updating models is more because GW over-focused on Marines for a time. Management wise GW went through a maximum return on investment phase.
This I think resulted in policies and choices that left a good many armies in 40K and Old World without updates for far longer than normal. The result is armies like Eldar slipping behind the curve considerably.
You also had the utter mess that was finecast which messed up a lot of models and I think for a time left GW without enough money to invest into shorter term plastic moulds; and not another cheaper suitable material to replace finecast with.
IT seems they've now moved to a position where they can replace it with regular plastics and are doing so. Hence why we are suddenly seeing so much catch-up happening all across the armies.
Tyranids are pretty much done. Necrons have the destroyers and then just a selection of named special characters; Tau were fairly modern to start with and with the Kroot getting a big update that's a lot of them done; Orks I'm less hot with what's needing and not needing updates.
Eldar are honestly just the ones that drew the short straw and came latter in the waves.
even eldar are doing pretty fine these days. more and more aspect warriors in plastic, plus guardians, rangers, etc means GW just needs to finish the set, give them their characters, and rework vehicles (but maybe this just the perspective of a new player, for whom that new guardian kit has always* existed)
This always makes me laugh a bit. Game sizes right now arn't to far off from 4th. In 4th I had 150+ nid armies that had 6 "big bugs" or 120 model ork armies that included 40 bikes. Table was bigger. But honestly the smaller table is forcing more engagement than we got pre-table reduction.
Hulksmash wrote: This always makes me laugh a bit. Game sizes right now arn't to far off from 4th. In 4th I had 150+ nid armies that had 6 "big bugs" or 120 model ork armies that included 40 bikes. Table was bigger. But honestly the smaller table is forcing more engagement than we got pre-table reduction.
Were you playing the intended 1500 points in 4th? My chaos forces were definitely smaller. That said the erosion of restrictions on weapons/shooting over the years has done far more damage imo than anything else.
Hulksmash wrote: This always makes me laugh a bit. Game sizes right now arn't to far off from 4th. In 4th I had 150+ nid armies that had 6 "big bugs" or 120 model ork armies that included 40 bikes. Table was bigger. But honestly the smaller table is forcing more engagement than we got pre-table reduction.
Technically Gaunts have gone down in unit size. 32-30 was the common size for full units for ages; 20 is the max in 10th edition
Hulksmash wrote: This always makes me laugh a bit. Game sizes right now arn't to far off from 4th. In 4th I had 150+ nid armies that had 6 "big bugs" or 120 model ork armies that included 40 bikes. Table was bigger. But honestly the smaller table is forcing more engagement than we got pre-table reduction.
Were you playing the intended 1500 points in 4th? My chaos forces were definitely smaller. That said the erosion of restrictions on weapons/shooting over the years has done far more damage imo than anything else.
It is doable at 1500pts with the 4th edition Ork Codex if you take Gretchin, but there isn't a lot of points left over for upgrades and no firepower beyond 18" range. Would basically rely on powerklaws for tank busting. The 3rd edition Ork codex was current for much of 4th and points were generally higher in that book.
Most books of this era could eke out a horde list at the expense of toys though.
Those earlier Force Organisation armies also suffered because a lot of interesting variety in toys you could take would get locked behind things like elite slots. So you'd very quickly run out of options to take variety.
The FOC was a very neat concept, but it did eventually get outgrown by the variety of models and the diversity of core armies. At the very least the approach needed an overhaul to cope with armies that now had lots of specialists and so forth.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Never understood not magnetizing. Especially crisis suits
Not only are you limiting future options, you are then wasting like, half the future choics.
It's still extra effort as the models are not made with suitable magnet slots. That means drilling, modifying, finding magnets, fitting and so forth. Whcih is all a lot more added hassle.
So sometimes you don't want all that, you want a built model to play and paint and use.
Another aspect depends on the magnets you get and the size of slot and parts. Sometimes you can magnetize a part but its a wobbly connection and some people just don't like it. I know I've a few models that I've messed with and the angles and parts are such that, yes you can magnetize, but eh the results aren't as nice and satisfying as a complete model that's solid.
Some models also get very fiddly. Crisis suits should be of a size that its not too bad, but its still more hassle.
Tactical Drones.... I REALLY hope they aren't cut. I mean, they did sell a box set of those. In fact, I still have two of those boxes sitting around waiting to be built. What am I going to do with tons of unused drones now? Especially since I run a very non-suit Tau army.
leopard wrote: if all the myriad of drones end up as just tokens still its a pity. especially since they still include them in the "model count" on the boxes
Tyranids got 2 brand new drone like models that wound up as just tokens in the game. :(
I'd honestly hate to see Tau Drones end up as just tokens or not really part of the game. They are quite an iconic feature of the faction.
leopard wrote: if all the myriad of drones end up as just tokens still its a pity. especially since they still include them in the "model count" on the boxes
Tyranids got 2 brand new drone like models that wound up as just tokens in the game. :(
I'd honestly hate to see Tau Drones end up as just tokens or not really part of the game. They are quite an iconic feature of the faction.
thats basically the point, its not like its one or two models, most units seem to be able to bring a couple and now they.. well they take up space and thats about it. may as well be a note on a units wargear list and not bothered with
those kroothounds look like kroot that are walking on all fours, I know that is the intent but the old ones never gave me that vibe, these look like the lore aspect was taken to the fore and they are just differently evolved Kroot warriors.
Formosa wrote: those kroothounds look like kroot that are walking on all fours, I know that is the intent but the old ones never gave me that vibe, these look like the lore aspect was taken to the fore and they are just differently evolved Kroot warriors.
The old ones weren't devolved Kroot, but Krootiforms that shared a common ancestor with Kroot which had specialised so far into being 'houndlike pack hunters' that they lost the ability to take on new traits. Knarlocs and Krootoxen are/were the same.
This is the important role the Shapers play, avoiding getting stuck into evolutionary dead ends whilst selecting promising traits. All Kroot have the ability to take on traits from their prey, it is just guided by the shapers for the good of the tribe.
