discussion in the female custodes threads about orks and gender have had me thinking about that, and I think it's actually a really interesting subject
so a baseline we need to establish that sex and gender are two different things, and I'll be talking about both of them. sex is physical, gender is societal. however, historically and biologically, neither of these are strict binaries even in a species as binary as humans. intersex people prove that the sexual binary is fraught, while gender has always differed on a culture-by-culture level. many cultures had two genders, but many more had three or more and allowed for people to move between them. some scholars of gender studies suggest that modern society is more complicated than people perceive it. a man who crossdresses (not a trans woman) will have a different gender that they perform separate from typical masculinity, as does a young boy, as does a trans man. gender can be highly fractured and multitudinous
however, we're talking about orks, which are alien in both biology and culture. to talk about their biology, however, we can look to their real world inspiration— fungus. fungus is interesting in conversations about biological sex, because it completely defies our concept of what sex is. numbers vary, but different types of fungus can have sexes in the thousands or tens of thousands. these differences are imperceptible without study, but all the same, fungi completely defy the concept of a sexual binary. thus, my proposal here is that ork sex mirrors that of earth fungus, namely in being incredibly weird and inhuman. they all seem to be the same thing to us humans, but that's just because we don't get ork biology. ask an ork and he'll tell you the differences are obvious
gender is less straightforward, as we only have ork culture to be pulling from. however, even from that, I can make some interesting conclusions. orks are, ostensibly, a mono-gender species, but like the issue of sex, this is what we see from a human perspective. and considering how much the imperium cares about the culture and society of xenos, we can safely assume they aren't doing further studies into ork gender
the main thing is that the ork gender we see parallels modern masculinity, but doesn't totally match it. it's still a different culture, with its own differences. ork culture is hyperfocused on violence, so that's naturally a part of the culture. but we can use this idea to gleam deeper into ork gender. the most obvious gender is the boy, the typical ork. as previously said, this is a massive brute hyperfocused on violence. it goes beyond a penchant for violence and turns into a loathing of the opposite. the reason why genestealers struggle to form cults in ork society is because they are more passive than normal orks, and thus rooted out and killed for being "unorky". we can also see this as these genestealer orks being killed for performing the typical gender incorrectly, in the same way that humans will often exclude and harass people they see as performing their gender incorrectly, such as crossdressing men
but I think ork gender goes beyond the simple boy, because much in the way that human gender is highly cultural and has been tied to different roles in society, ork genders would be multitudinous. there's no way that a lowly gretchin would be considered the same as an ork boy. the gender of a gretchin would be different from a boy. in the same way that some argue a child, a crossdresser, and a masculine man all have similar but different genders, we can say that shooting boyz and boyz that fight in close combat are two similar but different genders. oddboyz like meks or weirdboyz have their own cultural expectations and behaviors to fulfill, and so could be said to be their own gender. and, of course, the warboss can be a gender of its own, especially when you compare the role that the warboss has in society to queens in hive-based insects
so the TLDR here is that orks are weird and inhuman, and it's fun to speculate about what that could mean for their biology and culture, especially when we look at how weird humans already are
Spoiler:
I could do something similar for aeldari and drukhari cultures, especially wrt gender, because I think there's a lot to speak to there (for example, in Drukhari society, the different genders that a trueborn would have compared to a vatborn), but this is already long enough
Sex is defined by the gamete produced - large, immobile or small mobile.
Other secondary sexual characteristics only exist as part of the biological systems for the production of those two gametes.
Fungus are interesting, although technically the yeast mating types you are referring to are not gametes as they are not a specialised sex cell. In biology they are referred to as mating types, rather than sexes, generally.
But yeah, I mean Ork spores could have loads of different mating types or a system similar to gametes and have a bajillion different ones. They don't need to be anything like earth fungus or algae.
I think if Orks have a concept similar to gender, maybe it's something like the clan structure, that seems to be a set of ideas linked to how a "proppa" ork should behave.
You cannot prescribe human modalities and methodologies of life and philosophy to a non-human object. IT's anthropomorphizing. Gender is a wholly human created concept. Orks do not care.
Old Orkoid references have them regarding Eldari as "pansy elves hide in trees", which paints quite a strong preference for conservative masculinist attitudes and values
tauist wrote: Old Orkoid references have them regarding Eldari as "pansy elves hide in trees", which paints quite a strong preference for conservative masculinist attitudes and values
which aligns well with the example i cited of orks hating passive genestealer orks to the point of violence. no matter what form or feelings an ork has, violence will always be at the heart of it
In terms of reproduction the spore thing is just a hypothesis. Orks themselves, in typically Orky fashion, neither know nor particularly care where Yoofs come from.
Going back to Waaaargh! The Orks? All any one knew was old, doddery Ork took their leave, wandering off far from the settlement, and in turn Wildboyz would wander in.
Honestly? It’s kind of questionable if Orks even appreciate that other species have different sexes and genders. It’s not relevant to beating them up or making them make more guns and ammo for you, so it doesn’t matter to Orks at all.
If an ‘Umie clobbers an Ork? They just mark themselves out as the source of a decent fight, and opportunity to prove you’re ’Arder than Snazzgag, on account a weedy ‘Umie perished Snazzgag, and you then perished that ‘Umie.
It's kinda discussed in the Ghaz book- wot wiff Makari being a multi-grot. Since he remembers all his other lives, plus the fact he and Ghaz are inseparable, Makari is referred to as "They". Meanwhile, "Bites face of that before it bites his face" ("Biter") is a Bloodaxe and 'as the kno-wot's of humies- so he refers to self as "He/Him". They ask if he knows about gender in humans and he states yes, and it is hilarious.
Also remember that orks are also part vegetal/ fungi and in the plant world it is definitely non-binary. While some plants have "male/ female" pistils/ stamens, some are self- pollinating, others need another plant of same type, and some may only have one or the other. W/E- I'm not biolologis, but you get the point.
The fact that Orks were bio-engineered to be numerous negates typical biological genders- however, there are references to orks kneeing or kicking other "in the 'urty bits" so there has to be some sort of genital equivalent.
Biologically, I'd say they's asexual- morally, they're male with the kultur of kunnin brutality.
I dunno, I seem to remember it's implied that Orks release a lot of spores during fights with each other, and a massive release on death. So for Orks a fight to the death is also a sexual encounter because their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).
The drive to want to fight big impressive orks is also a sex drive, if you look at it that way.
That's certainly a way to look at it. And Orks get bigger the more they fight, bigger Orks have a greater surface area, which would allow them to spread more epidemial spores - they'd be more "virile"
Orks are masculinely-coded, but they don't seem to have an innate concept of "gender" unless we define the term in a way that incapsulates something like "orkyness." Which, I'm honestly not sure if the term "gender" would apply there or not. Like, if a bunch of film snobs bully you for your taste in movies, they're bullying you for perceived differences but not because of your failure to perform a "gender." At least in the usual sense.
But that's more a matter of terminology. Orks don't have a concept of being "manly" or "womanly," but they do have a tendency to cluster together based on shared perspectives and behaviors and to act aggressively towards those who exhibit different perspectives/behaviors. Call that gender if you want.
From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.
From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.
JNAProductions wrote: From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.
From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.
yeah, this is definitely what i was thinking about. different roles having their own genders within ork society, which to outsiders seem identically masculine, but within the culture would come with their own signifiers and expectations
Da Boss wrote: ...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).
I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.
Funny how this has thread has gone on and no one has bothered to actually quote the in universe perspective Orks have on humans, which you can see from 5th edition codex:
Oomans are pink and soft, not tough and green like da boyz. They'z all the same size too, so they'z always arguing about who's in charge, 'cos no way of telling 'cept fer badges an' ooniforms and fings.
When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me," or "I know summink wot you lot don't so yer better lissen good."
Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot of mukkin' about if yer asks me.
An' while they'z all arguing wiv each other over who's da boss, da orks can clobber da lot.
Which is funny because I think it sums up the fruitless back and forth of the gender discussions that's been happening with Custodes.
Another great quote is from Uthan the Perverse:
The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn’t even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.
Emphasis mine. Most of you are trying to transpose concepts onto an alien species that are so far removed from humanity that things like gender are things Orks wouldn't have and wouldn't care about. If it isn't about war or conflict, I think you've missed the point about Orks and it's kinda weird IMO how much the obsession for gender even goes into things that are effectively genderless. What next, are you guys going to talk about what genders rocks identify with?
Da Boss wrote: ...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).
I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.
I am in this camp. Especially as it is exceptionally rare to see regional variants of Orks based on local conditions. They seem to be very resistant to genetic mutation and instead have a hard-coded genetic toolkit for adapting to different environments through technology and shifts in cultural balance.
Gorkamorka is a rare example, and that was explicitly stated to perhaps be due to exceptionally high radiation levels at the crash site.
We also don’t know for certain that there isn’t a lot of “How’s yer Warboss” going on.
Just because Orks don’t talk about it, doesn’t mean it’s not going on. And the sole physical difference could be the contents of trousers. Spesh given Orks don’t seem to need weaning, removing the purpose of mammaries and that.
Could be that’s how they fertilise their spores. But the “the transfer and pollination happens during punch ups” definitely makes sense.
Da Boss wrote: ...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).
I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.
I am in this camp. Especially as it is exceptionally rare to see regional variants of Orks based on local conditions. They seem to be very resistant to genetic mutation and instead have a hard-coded genetic toolkit for adapting to different environments through technology and shifts in cultural balance.
Gorkamorka is a rare example, and that was explicitly stated to perhaps be due to exceptionally high radiation levels at the crash site.
Yeah they seem to have pre programmed rapid evolution that is triggered by environmental conditions and the size of the herd. Some people have told me that that idea of orks being like fungi is just the theory of one imperial scientist and it’s not fact. But then that’s how most of 40K lore is written.
But I doubt that orks, even if there were male and female ones by human understanding, would have any differences in terms of roles played in society as all roles are dedicated to the war effort.
If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered foes (Necrontyr/Necrons).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered for (Necrontyr/Necrons).
I think that's what I was kinda getting at, then my tangential mind got.. ooh- cat videos! The Krorks were engineered because the old ones needed warriors NOW, so the spore/fungus thing promotes rapid growth without need for a complex society. Remember that humans/ fantasy analogues (Elves and such) form societies because it takes at least 9 months to carry to term, then the baby needs to grow up until it can fend for itself- unlike most animals, where, say a giraffe calf stands up minutes after being born.
Old ones didn't have time to foster/ coddle another race like the Eldar who (I assume) reproduce in typical human-like fashion. So, they gave them genetic/ psycho-warp knowledge that they just KNOW and made certain strains to fit roles IE: Meks, Painboys, Brewboys, etc.. All of this just from negating biological binary reproduction- which in turns negates the culture around bringing up a child, but also the whole culture of sex for procreation and recreation and it's impact on a society.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered foes (Necrontyr/Necrons).
Not retconned, but it was only ever implied in the original Necron Codex.
Eldar are explicitly creations of the Old Ones, and if memory serves it was said work on what would become humanity was also started.
Krorks are mentioned, but it’s only our own inference they became the Orks. Which if we’re completely honest is like saying because two words kind of sound similar, they therefore mean or refer to the same thing. Though I think it’s explicitly said The Nightbringer, somehow, never quite got round to ensuring the Krork had a concept of Death? It’s been ages since I read that lore.
Even if Krorks are the base species? We’ve still billions of years of evolution to take into account, and that’s before we consider that, at some point, some doofus might’ve tried some genetic engineering on Krorks, which lead to Orks as we know and love them today. And that includes their seemingly symbiotic relationship to Fungus, which we’ve no way of safely saying has always been there.
It’s like knowing us smelly hoomans share the Dimetrodon as an ancestor with all other synapsids, then claiming that therefore us smelly hoomans are Dimetrodons, every man jack of us.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This line of thinking could be hit with a big enough hammer (as is tradition) to include the Orks’ own, original creation myth as presented in Waaargh! The Orks, specifically the fall of the Brainboyz.
What if some well meaning idiot tinkered with Krork DNA, seeking to erase the potential for a Leader Caste to emerge from their genetic soup. The Oddboyz that would emerge to properly organise the other Oddboyz and Boyz (or equivalent). Done in an attempt to curtail their combat efficiency by just…editing out a formal command structure.
And in doing so, made it all so much worse. Without the Brainboyz to tell the Orks who and where to attack (left out how deliberately, they know how), they became the properly anarchic threat we know today.
Where once there might’ve been a considered approach to hopping aboard a Space Hulk with as many ladz as you had or would fit, and a set destination in mind and in reach? Now the middle bit still happens, but the Orks neither know nor care where they’re going, because there’s always gonna be a fight. The Orks are that fight,
If there’s anything to this mad rambling? I’m betting whoever edited out the Brainboy strain felt pretty sheepish, pretty sharpish. Like they’d tried to put out a chip pan fire with a bucket of water, and now even the fire is on fire.
Da Boss wrote: ...their spores will sexually reproduce (I assume).
I had always assumed that, being an engineered race, the entire racial potential of the Orks was contained in a single spore. So they don't really reproduce sexually, but a single spore has enough genetic diversity inside it to produce the entire spectrum of Orks that we see.
I am in this camp. Especially as it is exceptionally rare to see regional variants of Orks based on local conditions. They seem to be very resistant to genetic mutation and instead have a hard-coded genetic toolkit for adapting to different environments through technology and shifts in cultural balance.
Gorkamorka is a rare example, and that was explicitly stated to perhaps be due to exceptionally high radiation levels at the crash site.
Yeah they seem to have pre programmed rapid evolution that is triggered by environmental conditions and the size of the herd. Some people have told me that that idea of orks being like fungi is just the theory of one imperial scientist and it’s not fact. But then that’s how most of 40K lore is written.
But I doubt that orks, even if there were male and female ones by human understanding, would have any differences in terms of roles played in society as all roles are dedicated to the war effort.
I wouldn't even say they really adapt to environmental conditions, instead they bring their own ecosystem with them. Where Orks evolve there are immediately Squigs to eat and snots and grots to build and so on. An Ork "infestation" of a planet is just that.
Even back to their original lore, there was an order to Orky stuff appearing. First Squigs, Snots and Grots to get some kind of basic farming. The first Orks are Wildboyz, with Runtherds and Pigdoks being the first Oddboyz to manifest
As that population grows, the other Oddboyz begin to manifest alongside it.
And I think in Xenology, it’s even speculated that Ghaz himself is an Oddboy, a hitherto unseen Natural Leader Caste - which with the events on Ullanor and rise of The Beast may well be on to something.
One could argue the Oddboyz are a sort of genetic stress response. That as a given Ork society grows, it produces the specialists required to maintain itself, and grow further.
Then, for me at least, there’s the question of whether Speed Freeks, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz etc are themselves a form of Oddboy.
I mean, every Ork can see the fun in going fast, blowing stuff up and setting people on fire. But the Cults become obsessed with it, and very, very good at it.
Likewise Freebooterz, who almost act as an explorer Caste.
I think subkulturs and kults are different to oddboyz in scale, especially given oddboys themselves can be drawn in.
The Addiction kults are either a byproduct of the basic Ork encoding to encourage their core behaviours or deliberate engineering to result in a variety of warband types that can synergise in campaigns together or allow for optimum strategies in unusual situations. For example, artillery warbands coming to the fore in sieges or kults of speed dominating on open plains. It is probably both on reflection, with the former being a vehicle to ensure the latter. This would be a kind of pre-programmed contingency/adaptation to allow Ork forces to respond to different threats.
Subkulturs seem to be the same process, but at a mob level rather than warband level, and provide extra capability within a warband. I suppose you could argue oddboyz are the same again at an individual level, allowing for specialist capabilities at all levels of Ork society. At the other end are Clans, which are arguably the tribal level specialisation above kults.
Wow, this thread managed to be both interesting and measured, instead of spiraling off into some Orky equivalent of the culture wars. Another demonstration of why Orks are better than Custodes...
While Orks are essentially cockney soccer hooligans, and thus very male from our standpoint, subjectively their behaviour is just 'Orky' - they see themselves entirely from a racial perspective, in which being 'Orky' is being strong, violent and (preferably) big. If you're not Orky, you're a wuss. Any gender-specific words or expressions ascribed to them (like 'pansy' and 'urty bits') are also just Imperial approximations of whatever it is that Orks actually speak.
That doesn't mean that Da Boss's equating of the urge to fight with sex drive is wrong. Which is unfortunate, and I'm joining Gert and MorganFreeman in the shower...
tauist wrote: Old Orkoid references have them regarding Eldari as "pansy elves hide in trees", which paints quite a strong preference for conservative masculinist attitudes and values
Also this is a translation - humans are going to use their own reference points when trying to understand what Orks are saying.
Going back to Waaaargh! The Orks? All any one knew was old, doddery Ork took their leave, wandering off far from the settlement, and in turn Wildboyz would wander in.
Waaaargh the orks is more specific than that. Half the aged orks develop pouches and gestate new yoofs. I think that's the book.
For the modern ork, any mating almost definitely takes place at a microscopic stage, when hyphae growing from separate spores meet each other in the medium. A hyphal stage certainly exists because inanimate orkoid mushrooms are used for food, fuel, and propellant, so this form is necessary to obtain mineral nutrients from the medium.
This hyphal stage could even be the primary state of ork existence. The individual boy or snotling et al is more like an ephemeral construct extruded from the main, microscopic ork society in order to do tasks on the surface world. This obviously isn't a conscious stage, but it's similar to a hymenopteran colony being one super organism where, where the individual organisms don't really have a separate existence.
This can account for phenomena like makari. Terrestrial fungi are often karyogamous, where a given cells has multiple distinct nuclei from different donors. A given boy can be walking around with every cell in his body containing the genome for a completely distinct second or third boy that isn't expressed.
Snord wrote: Wow, this thread managed to be both interesting and measured, instead of spiraling off into some Orky equivalent of the culture wars. Another demonstration of why Orks are better than Custodes...
While Orks are essentially cockney soccer hooligans, and thus very male from our standpoint, subjectively their behaviour is just 'Orky' - they see themselves entirely from a racial perspective, in which being 'Orky' is being strong, violent and (preferably) big. If you're not Orky, you're a wuss. Any gender-specific words or expressions ascribed to them (like 'pansy' and 'urty bits') are also just Imperial approximations of whatever it is that Orks actually speak.
That doesn't mean that Da Boss's equating of the urge to fight with sex drive is wrong. Which is unfortunate, and I'm joining Gert and MorganFreeman in the shower...
this thread went a lot better than i expected! really quite happy with the discussions that have come about from this. there's a lot to speculate on when it comes to alien biology and culture
this thread went a lot better than i expected! really quite happy with the discussions that have come about from this. there's a lot to speculate on when it comes to alien biology and culture
Meanwhile the internet has gone into full stupid mode, as all the culture warriors (and opportunistic YouTubers) climb over each other expressing their utter outrage at the mention of female Custodes.
Going back to Waaaargh! The Orks? All any one knew was old, doddery Ork took their leave, wandering off far from the settlement, and in turn Wildboyz would wander in.
Waaaargh the orks is more specific than that. Half the aged orks develop pouches and gestate new yoofs. I think that's the book.
For the modern ork, any mating almost definitely takes place at a microscopic stage, when hyphae growing from separate spores meet each other in the medium. A hyphal stage certainly exists because inanimate orkoid mushrooms are used for food, fuel, and propellant, so this form is necessary to obtain mineral nutrients from the medium.
This hyphal stage could even be the primary state of ork existence. The individual boy or snotling et al is more like an ephemeral construct extruded from the main, microscopic ork society in order to do tasks on the surface world. This obviously isn't a conscious stage, but it's similar to a hymenopteran colony being one super organism where, where the individual organisms don't really have a separate existence.
This can account for phenomena like makari. Terrestrial fungi are often karyogamous, where a given cells has multiple distinct nuclei from different donors. A given boy can be walking around with every cell in his body containing the genome for a completely distinct second or third boy that isn't expressed.
We can only guess at this level of specificity, but I don't think Orkoids will hew so close to Earth fungi. They are not fungi, but a symbiote between an animal-like organism and fungal- or algal-like organism that are fused at a tissue level. The very way the main source for this states fungal or algal suggests to me that neither are ideal comparisons and that Orkoids only share similarities to these.
On Ork self-identity? It’s so strong, Daemons can’t properly possess them. The sheer force of “I am an Ork, and Ork is best” leaves no weaknesses or points of temptation.
Sure, a Warp’ead might suck a Daemon into his bonce when summoning power for a particularly violent outburst, but the Daemon becomes the prisoner (citation Freebooterz entry for Daemon Possessed Warp’eadz)
Then, for me at least, there’s the question of whether Speed Freeks, Tankbustas, Burna Boyz etc are themselves a form of Oddboy.
I mean, every Ork can see the fun in going fast, blowing stuff up and setting people on fire. But the Cults become obsessed with it, and very, very good at it.
Likewise Freebooterz, who almost act as an explorer Caste.
The primary limitation of a dreamer is lacking the patience to work through everything required to make their dream come true. A dreamer who's dreams just work somehow, is a terrifying force in the cosmos.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If it hasn’t been retconned yet, the orks were engineered as the krork by the Old Ones, who appear to take gendered forms, or are perceived as having gender by the (usually gendered) species they’ve created or uplifted. It seems to me like the krork kept some of the gendered coding from whatever species they started out as before uplifting or from the genetic pieces they were constructed from, even if presenting as masculine is something of a side effect of programming for strength, aggression and intimidation of gendered foes (Necrontyr/Necrons).
Not retconned, but it was only ever implied in the original Necron Codex.
Eldar are explicitly creations of the Old Ones, and if memory serves it was said work on what would become humanity was also started.
Krorks are mentioned, but it’s only our own inference they became the Orks. Which if we’re completely honest is like saying because two words kind of sound similar, they therefore mean or refer to the same thing. Though I think it’s explicitly said The Nightbringer, somehow, never quite got round to ensuring the Krork had a concept of Death? It’s been ages since I read that lore.
Even if Krorks are the base species? We’ve still billions of years of evolution to take into account, and that’s before we consider that, at some point, some doofus might’ve tried some genetic engineering on Krorks, which lead to Orks as we know and love them today. And that includes their seemingly symbiotic relationship to Fungus, which we’ve no way of safely saying has always been there.
It’s like knowing us smelly hoomans share the Dimetrodon as an ancestor with all other synapsids, then claiming that therefore us smelly hoomans are Dimetrodons, every man jack of us.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This line of thinking could be hit with a big enough hammer (as is tradition) to include the Orks’ own, original creation myth as presented in Waaargh! The Orks, specifically the fall of the Brainboyz.
What if some well meaning idiot tinkered with Krork DNA, seeking to erase the potential for a Leader Caste to emerge from their genetic soup. The Oddboyz that would emerge to properly organise the other Oddboyz and Boyz (or equivalent). Done in an attempt to curtail their combat efficiency by just…editing out a formal command structure.
And in doing so, made it all so much worse. Without the Brainboyz to tell the Orks who and where to attack (left out how deliberately, they know how), they became the properly anarchic threat we know today.
Where once there might’ve been a considered approach to hopping aboard a Space Hulk with as many ladz as you had or would fit, and a set destination in mind and in reach? Now the middle bit still happens, but the Orks neither know nor care where they’re going, because there’s always gonna be a fight. The Orks are that fight,
If there’s anything to this mad rambling? I’m betting whoever edited out the Brainboy strain felt pretty sheepish, pretty sharpish. Like they’d tried to put out a chip pan fire with a bucket of water, and now even the fire is on fire.
While I disagree that there’s ambiguity about the Okd Ones creating the orks, I agree with the rest of your point. I almost went into a tangent about the genetic drift or tinkering of the krork causing the loss of Brain Boyz, and possibly also the loss of ‘feminine’ identifying krork, but I decided to keep my post more simple. Whatever the reason, the orks are an outlier when it comes to biology, sex and gender, almost certainly as a result of some kind of species-wide intervention.
JNAProductions wrote: From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.
From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.
yeah, this is definitely what i was thinking about. different roles having their own genders within ork society, which to outsiders seem identically masculine, but within the culture would come with their own signifiers and expectations
Is "gender" the right term here? Things like class and nationality can have their own performative signifiers. Exhibiting properly speed-kulty signifiers seems more comparable to flashing nerd cred at the game store than be masculine around the bros. Possibly a gap in my knowledge. Is the term "gender" used in academic circles to refer to categories unrelated to masculinity/femininity/etc.?
Good point. I'm not sure if "gender" is the right term, but I suppose being a mek (or whatever) is more analogous to a matter of gender than a matter of profession/hobby.
It also dictates how they…..er, smash. If combat is intertwined with reproduction, then artillery orks and biker orks uh, perform intercourse quite differently.
Whilst I don’t doubt that premise is entirely possible? It’s mentioned in the spores theory that Orks shed spores near constantly, with a massive release (ooooooer missus!) at the point of death.
Given Orks tend to live in pretty close proximity, if they are shedding spores, they’re likely also shedding pollen. Because when you think about it, plants only need pollinators on account they don’t get about much. And when it’s spring, people get hay fever because all the pollen is blowing about.
So I’d argue there’s no need for physical contact for pollination. The increased release of spores during a punch up could simply be down to physical impact knocking them off the Ork’s body.
JNAProductions wrote: From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.
From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.
yeah, this is definitely what i was thinking about. different roles having their own genders within ork society, which to outsiders seem identically masculine, but within the culture would come with their own signifiers and expectations
Is "gender" the right term here? Things like class and nationality can have their own performative signifiers. Exhibiting properly speed-kulty signifiers seems more comparable to flashing nerd cred at the game store than be masculine around the bros. Possibly a gap in my knowledge. Is the term "gender" used in academic circles to refer to categories unrelated to masculinity/femininity/etc.?
it depends how far you want to get into gender you want to get, but there are some people who say that gender goes deeper than that, yeah. the example i cited at the start of the thread was how a young boy, a crossdressing man, a trans man, and a cis male adult will each have their own genders, because for each of them, masculinity means something different, especially in how they perform their gender. this can go further off the more you get into non-binary identities, like the spaces outside of masculinity and femininity, or the spaces in-between
so when we're speculating about an otherwise ostensibly mono-gender, these "shades of gender" feel like they could be appropriate to consider
The issue isn't inuniverse, it's how we present that universe to the consumer.
English has embedded patriarchal norms in it - mankind, policeman etc, calling everyone guys (but never saying you have sex with guys...) or Man.
The orks are depicted as masculine, and they use english male pronouns for them in all descriptions, to the point that the basic ork identity is 'boy'.
That this technically doesn't equate to their sex, doesn't change anything.
Until we start using truly gender neutral language, everything will remain default male coded which entrenches exclusion. That as men this invisible to you because it's what you're used to doesn't in any way affect the reality of it. It's no different to race coding in tv, when all educated people used to be white men, creating an unconscious cultural exclusion that people just saw as normal.
Most arguments against this boil down to men not personally experiencing or feeling these things and that personal anecdote being taken as representative data. It is not. Just because one person's personal experience can coincidentally correlate with the actual data (ie a woman who has directly experienced this exclusion), doesn't validate all personal experience. Correlation is not causation. Too many people use false equivalence fallacies to assume that because X is true for one person, Y must be true for themselves and they run off on wild tangents.
See: the chuds currently claiming female custodes is gaslighting them. False equivalence. Just because gaslighting is true for someone else, doesn't mean it's true for you. False equivalence seems to be a really hard fallacy to explain to people because it keeps getting used in modern cultural discourse - from white persecution to misandry.
this wasn't meant as an out-of-universe discussion. i just wanted to speculate about in-universe xenobiology. it's a different discussion entirely if we're talking about it that way (but you are right that the way they're presented and received by the audience is exclusively male)
StudentOfEtherium wrote: this wasn't meant as an out-of-universe discussion. i just wanted to speculate about in-universe xenobiology. it's a different discussion entirely if we're talking about it that way (but you are right that the way they're presented and received by the audience is exclusively male)
Ah cool. So if we assume that the descriptive language used for orks to be purely an english means of discussing them, then I would say that, based on the english speaking world's general assumptions on what gender is (that sexual reproduction is wrapped in it, even if that's a cultural assumption), then orks would not have gender as we define it in their culture.
I would argue, based on that definition of gender, that the jobs of the orks aren't genders either. I would argue gender is a concept they just don't use, as we use it. Again, I know gender as a concept is disputed in its application today, so I'm going off assumptions of the english speaking world's tradition of gender, given 40k comes from the UK and thus their gender sensibilities would be underpinning how they design them.
or to put it another way, orks will or won't have gender depending on how you define gender in the first place. Is it correlated with reproduction, or is it purely your social position and utility?
I do recall Fungi's "fruiting bodies" (IE: the Shrooms up top) are all connected to one network usually- the largest is 2,200 acres in Malheur Natl forest in Oregon (had to google last one, but knew it was big). This is paralleled with the Waagh! as all orks are essentially from a larger Gestalt consciousness/ dna profile. We know the various oddboyz get their knowledge through the Waagh and sometimes it can keep an individual's memories (Ala Makari). So an Ork's physical body is essentially just a "Fruiting Body" that we see, while much of the ork is in the waaagh. In xenology, it's stated that the fungal symbiotes serve as systems so that certain organs along with sexual reproductive ones are not needed but the fungus could also be a the link to the waaagh. It just depends on what strain the oddboy gets. As far as I know, the same ork spores also spawn snotties, grots and squigs, so slight differences in the boyz could account for "sub-oddboys" like speed freaks, tankbustas, and old 'ardboyz.
On the issue of Oddboyz? I think I’d say it’s something we humans have no societal analogy to.
Whilst yes, humans do seem to have innate talents. And I dare say those have been studied, they just don’t really compare to an Ork. Our natural talents incline us toward certain things, but we still need to be taught those things to reach our full potential.
Oddboyz just….Know Things. A Mek can work from rough plans, but they seem to be more Shopping (well, pilfering) Lists for Grots than detailed blueprints explaining what goes where and why. But they can also just get bored and start bunging things together, never knowing what it is they’re making until it’s done. A Painboy never has formal training. But he knows which wriggly bits connect to which squirty bits. Yes they’re prone to experimenting and “fixing” things that didn’t need it. But they’re not working from books or existing knowledge.
I do really like the concept that knowledge is in The Waaagh!, and as each Mek, Dok or what have you figure out a new thing, at some point (from immediate to upon the Ork’s death) that knowledge passes into The Great Green, to be disseminated to others. Ideas in a gestalt consciousness just looking for a brain to happen in. Like an original definition meme, but passed along psychically/genetically.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: this wasn't meant as an out-of-universe discussion. i just wanted to speculate about in-universe xenobiology. it's a different discussion entirely if we're talking about it that way (but you are right that the way they're presented and received by the audience is exclusively male)
Ah cool. So if we assume that the descriptive language used for orks to be purely an english means of discussing them, then I would say that, based on the english speaking world's general assumptions on what gender is (that sexual reproduction is wrapped in it, even if that's a cultural assumption), then orks would not have gender as we define it in their culture.
I would argue, based on that definition of gender, that the jobs of the orks aren't genders either. I would argue gender is a concept they just don't use, as we use it. Again, I know gender as a concept is disputed in its application today, so I'm going off assumptions of the english speaking world's tradition of gender, given 40k comes from the UK and thus their gender sensibilities would be underpinning how they design them.
or to put it another way, orks will or won't have gender depending on how you define gender in the first place. Is it correlated with reproduction, or is it purely your social position and utility?
I agree that Ork societal roles are probably not best described as genders. I do think they are social constructs, but gender is not the only social construct. Arguably, Ork societal roles hew closer to concepts of race than gender IMO.
I agree that Orks themselves almost certainly do not worry themselves with gender. Howver, as pointed out upthread, the gendered society to an outsider may not just be an out-universe abstraction from English or an in-universe abstraction by the Imperium, but may be based on the Old Ones concepts of gender as the engineers of Orkdom. I.e. they have inherited a gender they have no concept of.
If we want to draw comparisons to human current society my personal approach is this:
- "race" (in German "race" is a concept that is highly contested so much that the word is frowned upon but I understand the english languages uses it a bit differently): the Orks actually have races (and racism): Orks, Grots, Snots
- nationality: your tribe. Your tribe can also be part of a greater Waaagh. Just like your nation can be part of the EU. And Ghazghkulls Waaagh is the UN because somehow it influences all Orks in the galaxy.
- worldview/ political stance: I'd say these are the Klans. Your tribe consists of members of different Klans and these in itself aren't monolithical. Not all Snakebites are Beast Snaggas and not all Evil Suns are Speed Freaks (and vice versa). But there are tendencies that some professions tend to have a higher percentage of a specific Klan. Just like people in social jobs tend to more often have left wing views than, say, managers.
- profession and personal interest: kommando, loota, tankbusta and so on. The Orks have a utopian society where everyone (but the Grots and snots) can actually do the job he likes and isn't forced to do something else . You like blowing up tanks, just find some pals and go on.
- social hierarchy: pretty obvious with nobz.
Though there's also a financial hierarchy with Bad Moons at the top. Obviously Bad Moons are filthy libertarians that know how to play the system.
What does that have to do with the topic?
Well, you don't see gender here. And I don't think ork society really cares about gender because there is only one. As I said earlier or in the other thread: It's well possible Orks don't even understand or recognize differences between the genders in other species (and we also know they don't think about stuff like that, too).
Or importantly, Orks may have different sexes (Becuase pollination/fertilisation is really unclear) but that isn’t something that defines you in their society.
If your an Ork? That’s an end to it. You’re an Ork and Orks are the best. And the only limit to your personal power, profit and influence is how ‘ard you get, and how many people you can duff up to claim their position, all the way up to Warlord (the lead Warboss among a confederation of Orky forces). And if you’re not ‘ard enough, every just has a laugh anyway, and don’t seek to analyse why. You are, or you’re not. That’s all there is to it.
Gender is definitely something Orks would refer to as "oomie nonsense".
It's pretty much a very simple "might makes right" mentality with Ork society being clearly organized according to a very rigid understanding of Ork hiearchy, with grots/snotlings at the bottom and Orks at the top, all based on size and relative strength of the Ork as long as he's according to the WAAAGH! gestalt intuition of whether or not he's acting proppa, which prevents easy infiltration from things like Genestealer Cults.
I would think the closes analogy to gender in Ork Society is the Oddboyz. They are acceptable and integral parts of Ork Kultur that are not normal boyz. All the other types of boyz are exercising their preferred method of getting to a scrap, but Oddboyz are off doing their own special thing. However those Oddboyz things allow a Waaagh to do more than smash each other with sticks in a limited area. It would be a profession in most races, but you can't study to be an Oddboy. You're born an Oddboy, you live as an Oddboy, and you die as one.
But Oddboyz are always seen as Orks first, then the Oddboy bit, then a source of a potentially spectacular explosion if they’re a Weirdboy.
At all points they’re still subject to the same rules (or lack thereof) as the next Ork. The main difference being “useful” Oddboyz like Meks and Doks tend to gather more teef as a direct result of the services they render. And there’s no sin or unfairness perceived in clobbering one and nicking his best stuff just because he’s an Oddboy.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But Oddboyz are always seen as Orks first, then the Oddboy bit, then a source of a potentially spectacular explosion if they’re a Weirdboy.
At all points they’re still subject to the same rules (or lack thereof) as the next Ork. The main difference being “useful” Oddboyz like Meks and Doks tend to gather more teef as a direct result of the services they render. And there’s no sin or unfairness perceived in clobbering one and nicking his best stuff just because he’s an Oddboy.
Oddboyz do seem to be othered by other Orks though, and very rarely rise to the top of the pile- a mek warboss is exceptionally rare, for example, with big meks typically being subordinate to a warboss. Oddboyz that get too big for their boots are either put in their place or exiled. Hence why I think comparisons to race are more appropriate, as these are inherent traits that are treated differently in an arbitrary way to the in-group of standard Orks.
Ultimately, any human social construct is going to be an imperfect match, because it is a xeno society. The other big difference is that Ork kultur is, in some ways surprisingly, very homogenous across the galaxy, so in the case of Orks these social structures may actually be biologically determined in a way they are not in humans. I.e. Oddboys are always mistreated in the same way across the galaxy, with only rare exceptions (Gorkamorka comes to mind), whereas something like race for humans has a myriad of interpretations for ostensibly the same physical and/or national characteristics.
Of course all this does highlight when a writer actually creates a properly alien society it is never very popular, as even its building blocks are alien and there are no points where readers can relate to it. You have to compromise all over to anthropomorphize your creation or it leaves people cold.
You don’t have to anthropomorphise aliens to make them connect. You can base them on your family dog or cat, too.
The side effect is that it becomes hard to make puppy-identified aliens menacing. Take Flenser from A Fire Upon the Deep. Yes, he’s a Space Hitler, but he’s also a hamperful of puppies. Awwww.
One option not mentioned that goes back to Ork's fantasy origins as Orcs is they may be like the OLD WHFB Fimir... I'll let you research for yourself on that topic.
Interesting to note while looking up LOTR Orcs (which all modern ones are based on, let's face it) that Tolkien said there were female orcs.. and in the movies 1/2 of all the extras in makeup were women.. Huh.
TheChrispyOne wrote: One option not mentioned that goes back to Ork's fantasy origins as Orcs is they may be like the OLD WHFB Fimir... I'll let you research for yourself on that topic.
Interesting to note while looking up LOTR Orcs (which all modern ones are based on, let's face it) that Tolkien said there were female orcs.. and in the movies 1/2 of all the extras in makeup were women.. Huh.
I don’t think it was ever really explained indepth but I think the only hint we have from Tolkien that Orks also do it like humans is that Bolg is the son of Azog, right?
That being said personally I find the "Green Orks" no matter if Warhammer, Warcraft, DnD or Elder Scrolls so far removed from Tolkien Orcs (or how I imagine them) that for me it's hard to draw conclusions from the one to the others.
If ORKS really do reproduce with spores, and the young ORKS emerge fully formed and ready to go from the ground then why do they have nipples? WHY????
On a more current “lore” point, it isn’t fact that ORKS reproduce by spores, the 9th codex added in all manner of. Speculation, and everything that seems to be accepted ORK lore was presented as theories with other explanations given as well.
Ultimately we don’t KNOW any of these things about Orks and can only speculate. Gender or sex do not appear or matter or even be present in ORK culture.
The use of pronouns in the fiction depicting them is not an indicator either, that is purely a translation issue, neither is the word “boy”. It clearly has a different meaning that currently implies no gender association.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?
Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.
So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well
From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?
Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.
You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brickfix wrote: So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well
Yeah, this one
I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.
I’m not familiar with this fluff? Rogue Trader didn’t include it (there it was Old Ork wanders off, Wildboyz wander in), so I’m missing something in my collection.
For clarity of tone, this is an honest open question, not passive aggressive drivel.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?
Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.
You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brickfix wrote: So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well
Yeah, this one
I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?
Came from Gorkamorka
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what we call nipples on an Ork aren’t necessarily nips as we understand them. For all we know, they could be stamen, or a sensory organ, anything really.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.
I’m not familiar with this fluff? Rogue Trader didn’t include it (there it was Old Ork wanders off, Wildboyz wander in), so I’m missing something in my collection.
For clarity of tone, this is an honest open question, not passive aggressive drivel.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?
Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.
You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brickfix wrote: So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well
Yeah, this one
I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?
Came from Gorkamorka
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what we call nipples on an Ork aren’t necessarily nips as we understand them. For all we know, they could be stamen, or a sensory organ, anything really.
Could also be vestigial remnants from whatever the Old Ones engineered them from. Morphologically they’re actually quite similar to the Eldar (especially compared to some of the wackier Old One engineered races) who are also a psychic weapon species and do have a sex binary. It’s possible that they have some sort of common ‘ancestor’ that the Old Ones blended with whatever gives the fungal element (and maybe something else for the more simian posture).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: From 3rd on, Orks didn’t evolve, they were created by the Old Ones. This coincides with the change to spore reproduction. Before that, pouchlings suckled from the biggest, muscleiest orks.
I’m not familiar with this fluff? Rogue Trader didn’t include it (there it was Old Ork wanders off, Wildboyz wander in), so I’m missing something in my collection.
For clarity of tone, this is an honest open question, not passive aggressive drivel.
.
The pouches thing is from RT days, when only the biggest, oldest orks reproduced. I expanded onto the nursing part to explain the nips… and also for the squick factor.
The RT-2nd edition orks didn’t have tinkering old ones to explain their nips.
WAY back before the 3rd ed codex, orks reproduced with two sexes just like other species.
I remember a Rogue Trader era article about Ork Genestealer Hybrids that talked about why stealer cults have a harder time on ork worlds because most orks do not pursue reproduction until late in their life cycle. And the small cults would then sell their services as freebooters.
The conversions of ork-genestealer hybrids were really cool. Sad to see them go the way of the tyranid squig swarms
Of course the ork minis all seemed coded male (like most things) so perhaps orks had very little gender dimorphism.
There were orc cheerleaders in Blood Bowl, but that isn't in continuity with 40k
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Probably vestigial features that have no real function.
But what art are you looking at that gives orks nipples?
Not art. Models. And I f they are vestigial then that implies evolutionary wise they needed them, which makes no sense if they reproduce form spores. Also not really the point I was among, more of a side note.
You must have better eyes then me, but I do not see a nipple.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brickfix wrote: So, Ork Nippels nicht exist because it was one of the possible connections between their cocoon where they matured in? I recall seeing a black-and-white art describing an Orks growth cycle, but I can't find it right now. I believe I stumbled over it on Pinterest so it's highly likely to be fan-art as well
Yeah, this one
I honestly cannot remember where it came from. I do remember seeing in on paper a long time ago, maybe the 3rd ed book?
Edited the pic to highlight the “nipple like feature”.
Interesting to note while looking up LOTR Orcs (which all modern ones are based on, let's face it) that Tolkien said there were female orcs.. and in the movies 1/2 of all the extras in makeup were women.. Huh.
I don’t think it was ever really explained indepth but I think the only hint we have from Tolkien that Orks also do it like humans is that Bolg is the son of Azog, right?
That being said personally I find the "Green Orks" no matter if Warhammer, Warcraft, DnD or Elder Scrolls so far removed from Tolkien Orcs (or how I imagine them) that for me it's hard to draw conclusions from the one to the others.
Tolkien never really settled on the origin of the orcs. The problem as he saw it was the idea of a race with free will (which the orcs clearly had) that was also irredeemably evil. So he came up with various ideas of how the orcs came to be, but was never fully satisfied with any of them. One idea that he did codify was that only Eru could grant free will. So Morgoth most likely twisted members of a pre-existing race. But other than that, it was never settled.
Despite the lack of an origin, it's almost certain that Tolkien envisioned them with two sexes, and reproducing that way. All of the Tolkien races that we have information about reproduce in that fashion - even the Ents. It's unlikely that the orcs would be different.
One of the issues with Tolkien's orcs is the existence of half-orcs (hobgoblins/uruk hai).
These creatures are half human and half orc- which makes the orcs somehow way more evil.
It is really easy to imagine how that happens with normal sexual reproduction, but it also seems that this isn't how those orcs came to be (since their existence seemed to have been caused by Saruman, and their population was concentrated there).
There’s also the half-orc man they meet in town early on, with the squinty eyes. Not only is it implied the orcs reproduce sexually with humans, but their descriptions also consistently point to what Tolkien himself described as “that most unpleasant of Mongol types”, which makes them more analogous to a human race than to a fantasy mushroom-pod person.
The most obvious interpretation of LOTR is Saruman had dungeon breeding pits full of humans and orcs, but that was way too dark to spell out.
OK can someone please give me a book/WD issue type citation for Orks gestating in another Ork?
Not because I’m looking to be difficult. Rather I dimly recollect hearing it before, but can find no so much mention in 1st or 2nd Ed Published Books (by which I specifically mean Waaargh! The Orks, ‘Ere We Go, Freebooterz and Codex Orks)
I don’t think my copies are missing any pages, but for sake of transparency I’ll happily accept that perhaps I am.
"Unlike other races, Orks have no genders. The breeding ability develops in an Ork after he reaches maturity and becomes feral. Roughly half of the wild Orks develop marsupial pouches, in which an Ork whelp is born and nurtured. After a short span of time, the whelp is big enough to leave the pouch. The feral parent feeds the whelp on Squigs and teaches him how to survive in the wilderness. This gives the young Orks their tough, resourceful character."
JNAProductions wrote: From an out of universe perspective, Orks are stereotypically male.
From an in universe perspective, I'd imagine the closest things Orks have to gender in their own society is the various types of Boys. A MekBoy is different from a WeirdBoy in ways that matter to the Orks.
And, as a reminder, Orks are NOT stupid. They're simple. If an Ork force found itself on a planet with strong gender norms among the local populace, especially in regards to who fights, they'd learn that. They wouldn't ADOPT that to themselves, but they'd certainly learn that "Oomie men are the stabby ones, and oomie women man the artillery" or whatever the planet does.
It's fun to discuss what in-universe Ork society might have for gender equivalents, or what they think of other species' gender ideas.
But from our perspective-that is, someone who doesn't exist inside the 40k universe-they are presented as male.
The problem as I see it is that we have the novel Brutal Kunnin'. In there we have a female techpriest that is hardly female and referred to as she. We have a skitari using his/her own pronouns (at least in the german translation, not sure if it's just "they" in english and they didn't know how to translate that) and is supposed to be postgender I guess. We also have an Iron Warrior who is a "he" and we have all the Orks and Grots that always refer to themselves as he with the only notable exception of a Squig that becomes a "she" after it got the name of "princess" because it ate a "princeps" and the Orks didn't understand what that's supposed to mean.
So, the Orks might have a concept of gender OR at least they copy the designations from humans. It's one aspect I don’t like about the book, it's basically just the Ork codex in novel form . I prefer the way they handled Ork language in The beast arises where it's always: "The Ork shouted something in their crude language the Space Marines couldn't understand."
Do you feel that Orks are not male-coded and male-presenting from our perspective?
Indeed they are. Maybe I misunderstood your point. I thought you were saying we don’t have their in-universe views or language so we wouldn't know if they actually described themselves as Boyz and he or if that's just the Imperial view. But from all/most the in-universe talking of Orks we can only conclude they really speak cockney and are all male-coded. I know there's also the debate about low-gothic and nobody's actually speaking english in 40K and so on but if we go down that road we don’t know anything.
Having received clarification on the terminology, I’ll agree Orks are male coded.
But I’d still argue they remain ultimately Genderless. And I strongly doubt given their overall character, it’s a level of introspection and “who am I?” that just doesn’t occur to them.
No males. No females. Just Orks. And Orks is the best. And if you’re a Mekboy? You’re still an Ork, you just know fings. Same as the other Oddboyz.
To Cortez, the other thread is more about real-world impacts, so for the purposes of that thread, Orks are male.
This thread is more of an in-universe look at Orky culture, so here is where you'd say "Orks don't have gender as we understand it."
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Having received clarification on the terminology, I’ll agree Orks are male coded.
But I’d still argue they remain ultimately Genderless. And I strongly doubt given their overall character, it’s a level of introspection and “who am I?” that just doesn’t occur to them.
No males. No females. Just Orks. And Orks is the best. And if you’re a Mekboy? You’re still an Ork, you just know fings. Same as the other Oddboyz.
i don't think they would think about it, but i don't think they would think about it in the same way most humans don't really think about gender. a boy is just a boy, an oddboy is just an oddboy
I put it to you Dakka, that Boy is nothing more than an indication of social status.
Orks is Orks. Within that, you have a pecking order. Snots, Grots, Boyz, Nobz, Warboss, Warlord.
You might describe Daffgatz as one of Snaggob’s Boyz. This would inform other Orks two things. Daffgatz is a Boy, Snaggob is a Nob.
There are subtle sub-strata within that hierarchy (some Nobz are regarded as ‘Arder than others and thus less to be messed with, but are all ultimately Nobz).
But none of it is akin to a gender. And that would extended to the original, somewhat homophobic language demonstrated in the earlier books which is no longer really used.
No, dear reactionary. That is not to say old books were the big homophobe. Just that the language used, which was commonplace at the time (even in the Beano, a kids comic) had homophobic roots, and thus carried those connotations.
In the model thread, I would disagree. The models and their nomenclature are the first things a new gamer is going to notice; and it’s all sausage all the way down.
In terms of the lore, especially for long term fans who are more into the background than the minis, yes, Boyz is an indicator of status or function and not gender. But a new player wouldn’t pick up on that and even an older player has to care enough to put in the thought time about ork background to notice.
And then if you go deeper, like looking at the old homophobic terms you alluded to, you see that orks are intended to be identified as a particular masculine-coded stereotype in 80’s British culture, and you sigh and shrug and start playing Stargrave with your Buzz Lightyear dropships instead.
From a hobby perspective, the Orks are the single most heavily male-coded faction in 40K. They are as manly and macho as you can get. They are referred to as boys and they behave like a caricature of a bunch of frat boys who had one too many beer.
As far as orks, in universe, are to be understood, they have no gender, though I would guess that since orks have adopted a lot of Imperial customs like weapons, uniforms, imperial language, tactics etc. that they might have gained and understood up to a certain point the concept of gender in humans. I would not be so surprised if orks would rather be viewed as the meanest and biggest kind of macho men by humans. Human-male machismo cultural traits are probably those they find most desirable and men being bigger than women would necessarily mean that, to an ork eye, human men are better than human women in their eyes and Roboute Guilliman rules the Imperium because he is the biggest and meanest man alive. While orks, in universe, do not have a gender, I would almost certainly bet they are misogynists (sure this might be well overshadowed by their raging racial supremacist ideals and general violent stupidity, but it's probably still there).
I strongly argue Orks have no concept of gender. If you’re not an Ork and they can beat you up? You’re just weedy. And you’re weedy because You’re Not An Ork. If you out up a good fight? You’re a challenge and good fun.
Why you can put up a challenge doesn’t matter. Only that you can.
They show no ability or interest in, or awareness of, other species having genders and the dimorphism that can bring.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I strongly argue Orks have no concept of gender. If you’re not an Ork and they can beat you up? You’re just weedy. And you’re weedy because You’re Not An Ork. If you out up a good fight? You’re a challenge and good fun.
Why you can put up a challenge doesn’t matter. Only that you can.
They show no ability or interest in, or awareness of, other species having genders and the dimorphism that can bring.
Yes, I don't think anyone's arguing that Orks don't have a sense of gender.
But we, the OOC people creating, perceiving, and designing 40k, do.
No matter what the fictional race of Orks believe their gender to be, on a OOC level, they are masculine coded.
That's not inherently a problem, but it *is* accurate to say that they are, on an OOC level masculine coded.
I think that Orks are masculine-coded by virtue of their attitudes and actions and less to fact that their core unit is Boyz and their speech patterns dating back to the 80's are male-gendered.
If GW published a new codex that changed Boyz to Brutez and made Orks use Zee/Zer pronouns in all future publications, Orks would be no less masculine-coded than they are today. They believe that violence is a way of life, might makes right, and that bigger/stronger/more is better.
They also have broad shoulders, masculine torsos, Mighty Mouse torso-to-legs proportions, square “lantern” jaws, wide, heavy brows, and baldness. Even ignoring their behavior or motivations, they are coded masculine.
Currently, I am using some female savage orcs I found on Myminifactory as stand-ins for Snagga Boyz Gurlz.:
They're more WoW-ish, but even in Azeroth, the Females stand up straighter than males. I figure MY enjoyment is worth more than being 110% lore accurate. If pressed, it's because Waagh! energies backlash vs. Slaanesh Daemonettes and warp-magic-plot-shenanigans.
Also plan on making at least one squad of "Shortstack" grots, leaning towards TwinGoddessminis, again on Mymini:
And again, more for my enjoyment. We could dissect the whole "objectification of women" and standard of beauty or w/e, but when it comes down to it, it's resin. I'm not objectifying women; I'm women-ifying objects!!
TheChrispyOne wrote: Currently, I am using some female savage orcs I found on Myminifactory as stand-ins for Snagga Boyz Gurlz.:
[IMAGE]
They're more WoW-ish, but even in Azeroth, the Females stand up straighter than males. I figure MY enjoyment is worth more than being 110% lore accurate. If pressed, it's because Waagh! energies backlash vs. Slaanesh Daemonettes and warp-magic-plot-shenanigans.
Also plan on making at least one squad of "Shortstack" grots, leaning towards TwinGoddessminis, again on Mymini:
[IMAGE]
And again, more for my enjoyment. We could dissect the whole "objectification of women" and standard of beauty or w/e, but when it comes down to it, it's resin. I'm not objectifying women; I'm women-ifying objects!!
epronovost wrote: From a hobby perspective, the Orks are the single most heavily male-coded faction in 40K. They are as manly and macho as you can get. They are referred to as boys and they behave like a caricature of a bunch of frat boys who had one too many beer.
As far as orks, in universe, are to be understood, they have no gender, though I would guess that since orks have adopted a lot of Imperial customs like weapons, uniforms, imperial language, tactics etc. that they might have gained and understood up to a certain point the concept of gender in humans. I would not be so surprised if orks would rather be viewed as the meanest and biggest kind of macho men by humans. Human-male machismo cultural traits are probably those they find most desirable and men being bigger than women would necessarily mean that, to an ork eye, human men are better than human women in their eyes and Roboute Guilliman rules the Imperium because he is the biggest and meanest man alive. While orks, in universe, do not have a gender, I would almost certainly bet they are misogynists (sure this might be well overshadowed by their raging racial supremacist ideals and general violent stupidity, but it's probably still there).
I don’t think they would be misogynist. I'd say Orks are speciesists to a point they wouldn't even realize/recognize the differences of human men and women.
I mean, we know Orks eat humans. And probably they don’t eat them with their clothing and armour. (Approaching warhammer horror territory now). So it's possible to have two orks being like: "Ha, look, yours looks different there." "Funny dat. Go on, both taste like chicken." And that's the end of an Orks' case study. In the same way Orks would see different skin colors and shrug about it. They might wonder if the darker Ones' are nobz. But as we are told they wouldn't deeply analyse it. All they know is they're not Green and accordingly they're all weak.
But they migh think Ogryns are nobz because they're bigger. An Ogryn mob with an attached Kommissar would be seen as a mob of Nobz that brought their funny pet with a shiny hat.
I don’t think they would be misogynist. I'd say Orks are speciesists to a point they wouldn't even realize/recognize the differences of human men and women.
I mean, we know Orks eat humans. And probably they don’t eat them with their clothing and armour. (Approaching warhammer horror territory now). So it's possible to have two orks being like: "Ha, look, yours looks different there." "Funny dat. Go on, both taste like chicken." And that's the end of an Orks' case study. In the same way Orks would see different skin colors and shrug about it. They might wonder if the darker Ones' are nobz. But as we are told they wouldn't deeply analyse it. All they know is they're not Green and accordingly they're all weak.
But they migh think Ogryns are nobz because they're bigger. An Ogryn mob with an attached Kommissar would be seen as a mob of Nobz that brought their funny pet with a shiny hat.
I'm waiting for the echo of what I said...
TheChrispyOne wrote: It's kinda discussed in the Ghaz book- Meanwhile, "Bites face of that before it bites his face" ("Biter") is a Bloodaxe and 'as the kno-wot's of humies- so he refers to self as "He/Him". They ask if he knows about gender in humans and he states yes, and it is hilarious.
. You like blowing up tanks, just find some pals and go on.
