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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I don't know what's dumber in this thread:

People arguing that Tacs are OP (LOL), or people sincerely arguing that Tacs are better troops than IG Vets (LMFAO).

In Assault, they are. The trick is getting there.

But definitely not point for point.

A lot of people online don't play enough to grasp some the more competitive concepts.
For instance if there was a unit that was a troop choice with:
ws 1 bs 5 s 1 t 1 w 1 i 1 A 1 ld 5 sv -
...that could take heavy weapons, and were super cheap per model...say 3 points considering a cultist with a total of 8 points higher stats is 4, and could show up in small units of like 3, most of the less experienced players you run into online would dismiss them outright.

Experienced players would go nuts over them. Jaw dropping efficiency and focus while being in such small msu units that any firepower at them is ridiculous overkill. You'd see armies in events run literally 2 detachments full of the things alongside other power units, and heaven help if they have heavy and fast attack versions, or combat squadding, or some formation.

Just my two cents.

Honestly Tau are baby harp seals in close combat so no they aren't OP. Marines can walk through most of their guns and brush it off. Necrons....Necrons laugh while walking through Tau firepower and then RETURN FIRE in a much more deadly effect. And don't die, Even when you club their leader with a fricken' Daemon Prince he pops back up and goes 'I'm okay!' Did I mention it takes an act of congress to keep a Necron DOWN.

Not to mention the fricken' teleporting via monoliths.

Drop Pods are annoying but at least they are static. Rhino Rush has been around for a long time and was easily beatable. But nothing in the game should be free IMHO.

I wouldn't of minded grav if Chaos got it too. But since they didn't it's bull hockey.

Of course as bad as marines are, and as OP as Necrons are, the Super Mary Sue Sparkle Fairies of Fun Killing are the worst...I.E. The Grey Knights. Not only stupidly hard to beat, but have over the years become simply the worst faction in lore, and by the gods I wish they weren't a faction to be played at all.

Anyways...hope you enjoyed reading that. Peace. ^-^

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A lot of people online don't play enough to grasp some the more competitive concepts.
For instance if there was a unit that was a troop choice with:
ws 1 bs 5 s 1 t 1 w 1 i 1 A 1 ld 5 sv -
...that could take heavy weapons, and were super cheap per model...say 3 points considering a cultist with a total of 8 points higher stats is 4, and could show up in small units of like 3, most of the less experienced players you run into online would dismiss them outright.

Experienced players would go nuts over them. Jaw dropping efficiency and focus while being in such small msu units that any firepower at them is ridiculous overkill. You'd see armies in events run literally 2 detachments full of the things alongside other power units, and heaven help if they have heavy and fast attack versions, or combat squadding, or some formation.

Not necessarily true. I mentioned Renegades earlier on and wasn't really taken up on it. For 30pts with ordanance Tyrant you get a 5 wound T7 unit with 4 st5 ap5 barrage blasts - in the troops section. That can buy more wounds for 3pts a piece. These can also be taken in heavy. Whilst in Heavy and elites you can pay an extra 25pts and get a large st9 ap3 ordnance barrage blast instead. And they have a special formation to make them even more effective - the Purge, now every turn the blasts stay around and create dangerous terrain. Let's not even bring up the Spawn. Still have no idea why no-one rates them up there with the top tier.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
A lot of people online don't play enough to grasp some the more competitive concepts.
For instance if there was a unit that was a troop choice with:
ws 1 bs 5 s 1 t 1 w 1 i 1 A 1 ld 5 sv -
...that could take heavy weapons, and were super cheap per model...say 3 points considering a cultist with a total of 8 points higher stats is 4, and could show up in small units of like 3, most of the less experienced players you run into online would dismiss them outright.

Experienced players would go nuts over them. Jaw dropping efficiency and focus while being in such small msu units that any firepower at them is ridiculous overkill. You'd see armies in events run literally 2 detachments full of the things alongside other power units, and heaven help if they have heavy and fast attack versions, or combat squadding, or some formation.

That would be pretty nasty though price of heavy weapons make those still pretty expensive.

Gladius could be pretty good counter though. Tons of free drop pods each that has storm bolter designed to take out squad like these. With T1, no save and LD5 on 3 sized unit basically almost every pod sends one unit fleeing.

But yeh that's actually good example why any formula doesn't really work for balance seeking. That unit makes itself artificially cheap by "sacrificing" stats it doesn't need. A0 would be even better if possible!

KingmanHighborn wrote:Honestly Tau are baby harp seals in close combat so no they aren't OP.

Complete and utter bullgak.

"Nuclear bombs don't come with bayonets. Therefore, they are not one of the most dangerous weapons around."

Marines can walk through most of their guns and brush it off.

No, they can't.

Against what marines have you been playing?

Drop Pods are annoying

Were you able to maintain a straight face when you wrote this posting?

If you were, I ask but this one question:

HOW?

Tau players LOVE drop pods.

Martel732 wrote:
An average tau list is far more effective (not OP) than an average marine list. Without their gimmicks, marines become BA, who are trivially shot off the table by firewarriors, regular suits, and even Tau tanks.

This is because a "standard" marine list has absolutely terrible firepower/pt and has to rely upon poor CC abilities to win the day vs Tau. Almost all methods of heavy weapon delivery are an absolute joke in the marine codex. Compare to Tau and weep.

Combat squads and chapter tactics and even ATSKNF typically don't matter in a game of 7th ed. That's why marines are resorting to obj sec spam with battle company and super friends for death stars. Their conventional abilities just don't matter in the face of Xeno guns.

Haha, I was actually scrolling down the SM and Tau hate thinking "I wonder how fast Martel will make this about BA." Just barely managed to squeeze it in on the first page. Good job.

 Boniface wrote:
whilst it is fairy hurtful for a Tau player to be repeatedly wailed on about how 'effective' (read as OP) their army is, my post was more about pointing out that any army can be considered OP (I don't really take it too personally).
Space Marines were just an example of an army that probably breaks more rules and has more OP stuff than many others but no-one obsesses over them to the same level.

Firstly, you clearly do take it way too personally if you find it hurtful. Second, are you kidding? Marines are getting *massive* amounts of flack. You're just experiencing your own and turning a blind eye to the whine against marines. Third and lastly, Tau aren't really getting shat on for being OP, but more for being incredibly frustrating to play against.

I have a friend that played Tau, and he would smash me in most games. That's not weird, he is incredibly good at games like 40k. But I just wasn't enjoying the games at all. I felt incredibly frustrated after every game and I'd whine about some of the things he put on the table because everything was "they ignore...? Yeah, of course they do. Why the hell not." When you're getting frustrated, you lash out.
He later changed to CSM/daemons focusing only on Nurgle. (I play a flavourful mostly pure Skitarii for reference) and while he STILL smashes me at almost the same ratio, the games are ENDLESSLY more enjoyable. I don't cry about his stuff anymore, because playing against him is a lot of fun.

Understand that you are playing an army where every rule is made to suck the enjoyment out of your opponent.

text removed.

Reds8n

That costs 160pts for 3 Meltas and a Transport
You're acting like it's the greatest most OP thing ever, when it's barely mediocre.

 Talamare wrote:
That costs 160pts for 3 Meltas and a Transport
You're acting like it's the greatest most OP thing ever, when it's barely mediocre.

Greatest threat? No. But better than tac marines. Of course tac marines aren't super threat either. Only thing holding them around usable is free drop pod.

Poly Ranger wrote:Not necessarily true. I mentioned Renegades earlier on and wasn't really taken up on it. For 30pts with ordanance Tyrant you get a 5 wound T7 unit with 4 st5 ap5 barrage blasts - in the troops section. That can buy more wounds for 3pts a piece. These can also be taken in heavy. Whilst in Heavy and elites you can pay an extra 25pts and get a large st9 ap3 ordnance barrage blast instead. And they have a special formation to make them even more effective - the Purge, now every turn the blasts stay around and create dangerous terrain. Let's not even bring up the Spawn. Still have no idea why no-one rates them up there with the top tier.

Renegades are Forgeworld, which involves a lot of money to get them and their books are generally not in store for easy reference. That's why they are not rated on any tier.

 Purifier wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
An average tau list is far more effective (not OP) than an average marine list. Without their gimmicks, marines become BA, who are trivially shot off the table by firewarriors, regular suits, and even Tau tanks.

This is because a "standard" marine list has absolutely terrible firepower/pt and has to rely upon poor CC abilities to win the day vs Tau. Almost all methods of heavy weapon delivery are an absolute joke in the marine codex. Compare to Tau and weep.

Combat squads and chapter tactics and even ATSKNF typically don't matter in a game of 7th ed. That's why marines are resorting to obj sec spam with battle company and super friends for death stars. Their conventional abilities just don't matter in the face of Xeno guns.

Haha, I was actually scrolling down the SM and Tau hate thinking "I wonder how fast Martel will make this about BA." Just barely managed to squeeze it in on the first page. Good job.

 Boniface wrote:
whilst it is fairy hurtful for a Tau player to be repeatedly wailed on about how 'effective' (read as OP) their army is, my post was more about pointing out that any army can be considered OP (I don't really take it too personally).
Space Marines were just an example of an army that probably breaks more rules and has more OP stuff than many others but no-one obsesses over them to the same level.

Firstly, you clearly do take it way too personally if you find it hurtful. Second, are you kidding? Marines are getting *massive* amounts of flack. You're just experiencing your own and turning a blind eye to the whine against marines. Third and lastly, Tau aren't really getting shat on for being OP, but more for being incredibly frustrating to play against.

I have a friend that played Tau, and he would smash me in most games. That's not weird, he is incredibly good at games like 40k. But I just wasn't enjoying the games at all. I felt incredibly frustrated after every game and I'd whine about some of the things he put on the table because everything was "they ignore...? Yeah, of course they do. Why the hell not." When you're getting frustrated, you lash out.
He later changed to CSM/daemons focusing only on Nurgle. (I play a flavourful mostly pure Skitarii for reference) and while he STILL smashes me at almost the same ratio, the games are ENDLESSLY more enjoyable. I don't cry about his stuff anymore, because playing against him is a lot of fun.

Understand that you are playing an army where every rule is made to suck the enjoyment out of your opponent.

BA are a convenient talking point for regular space marines, because they are 95% identical, yet are three tiers worse on the table top.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
The problem is not that SM are designed to break the rules. The problem is that SM, an army designed to break the rules, constitutes pretty much 50% of the armies available.

It's funny how marines comprise most of the playerbase, yet most of the tournament winners aren't marines.

If they really were 50% of the playerbase, if they were equally powerful to other tournament-winning armies, you'd expect them to win roughly 50% of the tournaments. They don't, therefore marines are underpowered.

Not necessarily. If the majority of Space Marine players are either mediocre or have have a lousy stable, then they can be a huge proportion of the actual players and still not show a great placing in tournaments.

Having a high number of bad players is no indication of the viability of an army.

When you deal with a large population the deviation should be small. If you're making the case that there's a disparity of good players in Marines vs others, that would also imply that Marines aren't good enough to be competitive, since the WAAC crowd doesn't run them.

These are the same arguments made for equal pay across demographics as well.

And let's pause for a minute - you attempted to refute a very real, mathematical argument by saying "marine players are, in aggregate, very bad."

 Marmatag wrote:
When you deal with a large population the deviation should be small. If you're making the case that there's a disparity of good players in Marines vs others, that would also imply that Marines aren't good enough to be competitive, since the WAAC crowd doesn't run them.

These are the same arguments made for equal pay across demographics as well.

Why should the deviation be small in a large population? The larger the population, the greater the possibility of having a higher deviation. Not everything in nature follows the bell curve, especially when dealing with the sapient nature of humanity.

Space Marines are easy to get in to. They are easy to build. They do not require a huge amount of models. They are the gateway army for 40K, and GW plans them accordingly.

There are three types of WAAC player: 1) One who sucks and always uses the top tier army, even if they don't know how to use it; 2) One who is decent, but can't quite get a handle on how to use it to its best; 3) One who is good and develops the lists that the other two use.

Saying that a large portion of the Space Marine army players suck isn't saying that the army sucks. It just means that a lot of players who don't know how to play Space Marines (or even the game) are collecting and playing Space Marines.

There are people who do remarkably well with armies that suck. That's because they develop an army which is capable of countering the WAAC lists that people tend to bring. This doesn't make the army good now. It just means they have a counter to one of the top dogs. And even the worst army can do well if you roll well and your opponent rolls like a fleeced drunkard in Vegas.

There are a lot of good players who like sticking with the familiar, so Space Marines do well. There are a lot of people who don't like being with the familiar, so other armies do well.

 Marmatag wrote:
And let's pause for a minute - you attempted to refute a very real, mathematical argument by saying "marine players are, in aggregate, very bad."

No, I provided a conditional situation to counter a possibly made-up statistic.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
When you deal with a large population the deviation should be small. If you're making the case that there's a disparity of good players in Marines vs others, that would also imply that Marines aren't good enough to be competitive, since the WAAC crowd doesn't run them.

These are the same arguments made for equal pay across demographics as well.

Why should the deviation be small in a large population? The larger the population, the greater the possibility of having a higher deviation. Not everything in nature follows the bell curve, especially when dealing with the sapient nature of humanity.

Space Marines are easy to get in to. They are easy to build. They do not require a huge amount of models. They are the gateway army for 40K, and GW plans them accordingly.

There are three types of WAAC player: 1) One who sucks and always uses the top tier army, even if they don't know how to use it; 2) One who is decent, but can't quite get a handle on how to use it to its best; 3) One who is good and develops the lists that the other two use.

Saying that a large portion of the Space Marine army players suck isn't saying that the army sucks. It just means that a lot of players who don't know how to play Space Marines (or even the game) are collecting and playing Space Marines.

There are people who do remarkably well with armies that suck. That's because they develop an army which is capable of countering the WAAC lists that people tend to bring. This doesn't make the army good now. It just means they have a counter to one of the top dogs. And even the worst army can do well if you roll well and your opponent rolls like a fleeced drunkard in Vegas.

There are a lot of good players who like sticking with the familiar, so Space Marines do well. There are a lot of people who don't like being with the familiar, so other armies do well.

 Marmatag wrote:
And let's pause for a minute - you attempted to refute a very real, mathematical argument by saying "marine players are, in aggregate, very bad."

No, I provided a conditional situation to counter a possibly made-up statistic.

The deviation relative to the population. Yeah you could technically say that a standard deviation of 1 on a population of 100 is technically bigger than a standard deviation of 0.5 on a population of 8. But that completely misses the mark. Of course we need to make sure that we're talking about the same population - tournament level, or people interested in tournaments - not Steve, who got a get started kit of marines and lost them under his bed.

We can probably stop this argument. The 50% statistic is what i'm arguing against as well. Because IF that is true, and because there are so many people playing this game, if factions are equal, marines would be 50% represented as tournament winners. The same statement could be made about Orks, for instance. If 10% of the population plays Orks, they should be represented in the top tier 10% of the time, IF the army is balanced.

I'd be happy to discuss further over PM, but we're basically on the same page, except for the implication that Marine players are bad My feels!

 Marmatag wrote:
The deviation relative to the population. Yeah you could technically say that a standard deviation of 1 on a population of 100 is technically bigger than a standard deviation of 0.5 on a population of 8. But that completely misses the mark. Of course we need to make sure that we're talking about the same population - tournament level, or people interested in tournaments - not Steve, who got a get started kit of marines and lost them under his bed.

Getting in to most tournaments is not hard. Pay the fee, have the army, and show up. It's not like trying to get in to Wimbledon in most cases.

 Marmatag wrote:
We can probably stop this argument. The 50% statistic is what i'm arguing against as well. Because IF that is true, and because there are so many people playing this game, if factions are equal, marines would be 50% represented as tournament winners. The same statement could be made about Orks, for instance. If 10% of the population plays Orks, they should be represented in the top tier 10% of the time, IF the army is balanced.

There are a lot of "ifs" in that statement, and that is part of the problem. Most of the armies are not balanced, either internally or externally. That is part of why a standard deviation pattern will not work. Another part of the problem is not everyone who collects, plays, or enters tournaments have armies which they can work well.

Well that's the point really. I don't believe marine armies are overpowered in the first place - might be tough to argue depending on who you're talking to, considering some armies are really bad right now - but arguing the marine special rules are OP is a bit silly though.

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread has been a hilarious read. I would love to play games against people who think your average TAC marine is strong and can't easily play around them. That would be so fun. Just foot slogging all over the board in a list that was basically 70 marines, wiping out everything.

All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. "I HAVE NO ANSWER TO A 3+ SAVE WITH BASICALLY NO DAMAGE OUTPUT," they cry, as I heartlessly roll my horde of d6s, hitting on 3s! wounding on 4s! TAKE YOUR ARMOR SAVE AND TREMBLE.

Have an exalt.

 Marmatag wrote:
This thread has been a hilarious read. I would love to play games against people who think your average TAC marine is strong and can't easily play around them. That would be so fun. Just foot slogging all over the board in a list that was basically 70 marines, wiping out everything.

All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. "I HAVE NO ANSWER TO A 3+ SAVE WITH BASICALLY NO DAMAGE OUTPUT," they cry, as I heartlessly roll my horde of d6s, hitting on 3s! wounding on 4s! TAKE YOUR ARMOR SAVE AND TREMBLE.

The safety scissors got me

 Charistoph wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:Not necessarily true. I mentioned Renegades earlier on and wasn't really taken up on it. For 30pts with ordanance Tyrant you get a 5 wound T7 unit with 4 st5 ap5 barrage blasts - in the troops section. That can buy more wounds for 3pts a piece. These can also be taken in heavy. Whilst in Heavy and elites you can pay an extra 25pts and get a large st9 ap3 ordnance barrage blast instead. And they have a special formation to make them even more effective - the Purge, now every turn the blasts stay around and create dangerous terrain. Let's not even bring up the Spawn. Still have no idea why no-one rates them up there with the top tier.

Renegades are Forgeworld, which involves a lot of money to get them and their books are generally not in store for easy reference. That's why they are not rated on any tier.

The majority of the player base accept FW as far as I am aware, I have yet to meet one who doesn't, and it is allowed in most major tournaments. It also doesn't cost a lot to get them - Guard, Chaos, conversions, eBay and other model providers are your friend (only the latter will ever cause any blowback and even then only at some tournament settings)

Poly Ranger wrote:
The majority of the player base accept FW as far as I am aware, I have yet to meet one who doesn't, and it is allowed in most major tournaments. It also doesn't cost a lot to get them - Guard, Chaos, conversions, eBay and other model providers are your friend (only the latter will ever cause any blowback and even then only at some tournament settings)

It isn't a question of accepting Forgeworld or not. The book is the main problem. You have to order it from Forgeworld directly. The book is on a higher quality level from the Citadel-side codex. Both of these factors make getting the book alone an expensive affair, unless you get lucky on said eBay or a trading forum.

This makes the availability of such a thing a rare occurrence. Since it is rare, it is not on the normal power ranking list.

 Charistoph wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The majority of the player base accept FW as far as I am aware, I have yet to meet one who doesn't, and it is allowed in most major tournaments. It also doesn't cost a lot to get them - Guard, Chaos, conversions, eBay and other model providers are your friend (only the latter will ever cause any blowback and even then only at some tournament settings)

It isn't a question of accepting Forgeworld or not. The book is the main problem. You have to order it from Forgeworld directly. The book is on a higher quality level from the Citadel-side codex. Both of these factors make getting the book alone an expensive affair, unless you get lucky on said eBay or a trading forum.

This makes the availability of such a thing a rare occurrence. Since it is rare, it is not on the normal power ranking list.

Perhaps it is a regional thing, here in Britain most players I know have gotten at least one IA book or use FW models.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The majority of the player base accept FW as far as I am aware, I have yet to meet one who doesn't, and it is allowed in most major tournaments. It also doesn't cost a lot to get them - Guard, Chaos, conversions, eBay and other model providers are your friend (only the latter will ever cause any blowback and even then only at some tournament settings)

It isn't a question of accepting Forgeworld or not. The book is the main problem. You have to order it from Forgeworld directly. The book is on a higher quality level from the Citadel-side codex. Both of these factors make getting the book alone an expensive affair, unless you get lucky on said eBay or a trading forum.

This makes the availability of such a thing a rare occurrence. Since it is rare, it is not on the normal power ranking list.

Perhaps it is a regional thing, here in Britain most players I know have gotten at least one IA book or use FW models.

Quite possibly. The post isn't as bad if you don't have to cross a Sound or Pond.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Just my two cents.

Honestly Tau are baby harp seals in close combat so no they aren't OP. Marines can walk through most of their guns and brush it off. Necrons....Necrons laugh while walking through Tau firepower and then RETURN FIRE in a much more deadly effect. And don't die, Even when you club their leader with a fricken' Daemon Prince he pops back up and goes 'I'm okay!' Did I mention it takes an act of congress to keep a Necron DOWN.

Not to mention the fricken' teleporting via monoliths.

Drop Pods are annoying but at least they are static. Rhino Rush has been around for a long time and was easily beatable. But nothing in the game should be free IMHO.

I wouldn't of minded grav if Chaos got it too. But since they didn't it's bull hockey.

Of course as bad as marines are, and as OP as Necrons are, the Super Mary Sue Sparkle Fairies of Fun Killing are the worst...I.E. The Grey Knights. Not only stupidly hard to beat, but have over the years become simply the worst faction in lore, and by the gods I wish they weren't a faction to be played at all.

Anyways...hope you enjoyed reading that. Peace. ^-^

......... have you played a game since 5th edition? Grey Knights are pretty bleh these days

 Charistoph wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
The majority of the player base accept FW as far as I am aware, I have yet to meet one who doesn't, and it is allowed in most major tournaments. It also doesn't cost a lot to get them - Guard, Chaos, conversions, eBay and other model providers are your friend (only the latter will ever cause any blowback and even then only at some tournament settings)

It isn't a question of accepting Forgeworld or not. The book is the main problem. You have to order it from Forgeworld directly. The book is on a higher quality level from the Citadel-side codex. Both of these factors make getting the book alone an expensive affair, unless you get lucky on said eBay or a trading forum.

This makes the availability of such a thing a rare occurrence. Since it is rare, it is not on the normal power ranking list.

Perhaps it is a regional thing, here in Britain most players I know have gotten at least one IA book or use FW models.

Quite possibly. The post isn't as bad if you don't have to cross a Sound or Pond.

Yeh that's probably it. I'm from England originally and have multiple IA books. Hadn't even considered the lack of availability of the book itself.