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I have been playing Crimson Fists Space Marines for over 5 years.  I have not played a game of 40K since the new rules.  I signed up for the GT 2007 season (vegas/baltimore/chicago) and I have been told that if I am going to play the crimson fists, I have to use the codex traits dictated by the "chapters of legend" on page 45 in the codex. 

It states:"If you wish to playone of the Chapters listed using the traits, then these are the traits you must use.  However, using the normal Space Marines army list without Chapter traits is always a valid option, and is perfectly representative of these Chapters."

My position is that I wish to play my army that I have collected, built and painted over the years as Crimson Fists but WITHOUT the traits.

My arguement is that playing without the traits options is a valid option and perfectly legal.  I lost the arguement and now I must call my marines the "Emperor's Fists" or "Dorn's Fists" or some other made-up name to be able to play my blue marines with red fists that I have grown to love.  Is this possible?

The SM codex is pretty clear that you can play any named chapter as 'vanilla' marines, without whatever traits they come with. However, since the organizers have decided that Crimson Fists mean only 'Crimson Fists' as suggested in Codex: Space Marines, you're stuck renaming them to suit your own needs.

Whats wrong with the Crimson Fist traits? or more specifically, what advantage do you feel you'll gain by playing with standard Marine rules over using the traits? arn't the traits exactly the things that make Crimson Fists...well, Crimson Fists and not Dark Angels or Imperial Fists or Blood Angels, etc etc.....

There is only the Emperor, He is our shield and Protector!

Yay, another Crimson Fists player that loathes the traits given to the Sons of Rynn.

In response to what is wrong with the traits, it isn't so much what advantage you don't gain, but what disadvantage you do gain.  Suffer Not the Alien to Live costs 1 point per man and only benefits you against orks, and you lose 1 choice from each of elites, fast attack, and heavy support.

So in every game Crimson Fists play, they take a penalty (losing choices) and a second penalty assuming they use their anti-ork abilities (1 point per model).  What they gain is hitting orks on a 3+ instead of a 4+.  But not all orks, just the wussy ones.

It would be alright if SNTATL was free, or worked against all "alien" races for 1 point.  Instead, you pay to be better at something that only comes up once in a while.

I am personally an even worse heretic then representing them with the default list, I swap Trust your Battle Brothers for SNtAtL, which is way more expensive (300%) but is effective against all enemies.  Then again, I don't play in tournaments much anymore.

Strange since Tyranids, Eldar, Tau, and Necron all fall under the banner of "Alien" so why do Orks get a bum rush as far as Crimson Fists? Why would a Brother Fist only consider an Ork worthy of the title Alien and all others as simply an enemy?

Oh that part is easy to explain.  Orks invaded Rynn's World, home of the Crimson Fists.  There was an accident involving a defense missile landing on the fortress monastary, killing almost all the battle brothers.  At some point the chapter was cut down to just 128 men, although not sure exactly when.  And since orks are hard to get rid of...

They are also very close to the home of the arch-arsonist of Charadon, and as a result, they faced orkys a lot.  Specifically on the planet of badlanding.

So fluff wise, it makes absolutely perfect sense for them to have the orks as an enemy.  But game wise, the ability to hit orks on a 3+ isn't all that impressive compared to a penalty on all games...  Maybe if orks were a more common adversary force it wouldn't be as bad...

Thanks for responding.  In addition to the comments mentioned above, the bottom line is that I built and played an army for 5 years that followed vanilla rules and now suddenly, the GT rules force me to adopt a specialised marine army.  The comment was made comparing the fists to other specialised lists such as DA, wolves, etc.  Well, if I wanted to play an army with traits, I would've selected one.  Despite the fact that traits were assigned to a formerly "vanilla" chapter, it clearly states that it is legal to play the fists as vanilla but not in the biggest events of the hobby.  Because I am a wargamming whore, I am going to play, but it puts a philosophical and aesthetic damper on MY personal enjoyment becasue I cannot afford the time and/or money to invest in building and painting another vanilla army from scratch.  Nor do I want to.  I love the color scheme and background of the crimson fists and the battle for Armegeddon was my favorite time playing.  I have built a ton of history with my army and am emotionally attached to it (freaky).  However, I don't like the traits, and I would never have selected the army if it came with those traits.  So to sit back and say, "We arbitrarily changed your army, play with the traits or change your army." is callous at best.  It really has nothing to do with disadvantages/advantages (OK, maybe a little) 

I will go into my timeout corner now for crying like a baby. 

If anyone wishes to suggest some appropriate chapter names, I would gladly appreciate the effort.

Some of the new chapter names being kicked around:

Emperor's Fists

Dorns Fists

Dakkens Heroes

Fists of Rynn

Blue Angels

Red Fists (creative, huh?)

Well, you could also do an exchange, you could swap your Army for say a Ultramarine Army of equal value, or by units ( that way you can perhaps get a Pro / Well painted force ) without having to shell out more cash or expend more time!!

To be fair, the only way you'll ever be safe from the machinations of GW is to either create your own SM Army from scratch ( new name, history, paint scheme ) or go down the Ultramarine path!

I personally like the "Fists of Rynn," but if you did a lot of playing with your Fists on Armageddon, how about something related to that? You could say they fought so long and hard there that they went off a'crusadin, or were estranged from the rest of the chapter by time / distance / experience. A name like "Helsreach Fists" or "Fists of Armageddon," etc could reflect this, and some extra campaign patches painted on could throw off the WYSIWYG hounds.

Good luck!

-Adso

I vote for calling them the Fists Crimson, and you could do up a new company banner which simply quotes the rulebook saying that fielding the chapter without traits is always acceptable...

 

but i am a bitter person

Thank you brother Adso and Dragonmann!  Those are two awesome and perfect suggestions.  I actually chose the Hellsreach Mountains as my battle ground for the campaign I was involved with during the war.  I made a mechanized strike force that performed hit and run missions and even validated my existence their by modelling a battlefleet gothic strike cruiser that the chapter sent with my third company to fight the greenskins.  All my bases from there on were modeled in mountainous terrain.  I even made a rule that all my missions had to have a roll each turn to see if an ash storm occured causing a night fight.  My favorite mission was my armoured column being ambushed by orks in the mountains.  The most memorable was a huge battle with ork flyers where I had to escort 3 imperial gaurd chimeras and a high ranking official off the far edge of two boards placed end on end.  A buddy of mine, Bob, had epic battles between our two armies.  People may remember his work in a previous White Dwarf, orks with converted Crimson Fists rhinos and wargear.  Truth be told, I am leaning toward the Fists Crimson.  I am still in the bitter stage.  I will absolutely be going in one of these two directions.  Thank you VERY, VERY much.

Screw all that. Just keep them how they are. does the codex not say these chapters of legeng can be played as vanilla marines? #if you are willing to do that then just do that as you are allowed to by the codex. ~Obviously if yiou want different traits then No change the name of the chapter.

If you really want to irritate them, you could rename them the 'Krimson Fists' or maybe even the 'Crimson Phists'.

I was starting up a Howling Griffons army and thought better of it when I realized they could somehow be shoehorned into some funky chapter traits I wouldn't like in a future rules write up. I changed them instead to a chapter I call the "Griffons Rampant" and just went on from there. I'd say go with the name "Emperor's Fists", as it has a good flow to it.

But why should you if in the codex it says those chapters can use normal vanilla list to represent them?

The codex is very clear and you are in the right; Crimson Fists can be played with the traits specified or straight vanilla.  This does not change the fact that whomever is running the event has the ability to rule however they want on issues like this.  My suggestion is to continue playing CF and continue playing them as vanilla if you wish.  For the purpose of anal retentives like this change their name on the fly to any of the options given and play their game.  At the end of the day they're still CF and you're still right.

Don't bother coming up with a new Chapter name if you want to use them as Crimson Fists.

a) You're perfectly within your right to use them vanilla, but if you want to use traits and call them Crimson Fists, you can't use any but those specified in the Codex. So stick with Vanilla marines.

b) You can keep all of the banners, chapter markings etc. the same, just give your army list a different name. Call it 'Rapid Response Force Alpha' or something, and when asked by anybody what they are, just state Space Marines. You're not breaking WYSIWYG by telling anyone they're Space Marines.

Incidentally, I have the opposite problem, trying to convince people my army are Night Lords and not just Chaos Space Marines. They're Traitors, not Chaos Worshippers, damn it!

I still dont understand how an organiser can do that if it clearly says they can be played as vanilla marines? Surely they are just being arses about it? If they are clearly wrong IMO then why should you have to change the name etc of your chapter??

i like vermilion fist (sounds all robotect and stuff) Or bloodlyfist still can keep the red fist Logo on there armor??

Here's another alternative, if you don't want to play by the organisers rules....then just don't play! Vote with your feet..

jlmb 123, I am going to call them Fists Crimson, keep all of my banners and markings, but I will make some new banners to connect to some background to justify the change. 

Beef, I don't know why they are taking that stance.  I thought I was clear in my language and well defended by the wording in the codex. 

Delephont, I have not played in a tourney since the new rules edition came out and I am like an addict looking for a fix.  I just gotta play, man!  Like I mentioned before, I am a 40K gaming whore.  I really miss the whole GT experience.  All the fantastic armies on display, the comraderie of the hobby enthusiasts, the level of competition, and all that entails the weekend of fun.  I know it sounds corny and a bit feminine, but it is what it is.

It's not that I want to use other traits, I don't.  I just want to play vanilla marines rules and I want to play the army that I have built and played with for years.  It has history.  History that I have created that adds an aesthetic motivation and intrinsic sense of pride.  Something that has kept me loyal to the army over the years.  I have developed a sensible theme and tactical style of play that I feel comfortable with and allows me to enjoy all the aspects of the game.  I have struck a healthy balance of competitiveness and fun.  I bring it every game, I don't get bent if I get crushed by min/maxed lists and I truly have fun no matter the outcome.  The experience of the game is paramount and fulfilling.  I have achieved harmony.  OUMMMMMMM! 

For a laugh go with Dorns Red Headed(Fisted) Step Childern, the Bastard Sons of Dorn.

Posted By Flaxxon on 04/20/2007 3:18 AM
For a laugh go with Dorns Red Headed(Fisted) Step Childern, the Bastard Sons of Dorn.

"The ones he had with her 'round the corner, what's her name, the blonde one with short skirts and the big you-know-whats, always hangs around the British Legion on weekends, you know the one, not Mrs Davies niece, the other one. Well any way, it was her."