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that sucks lol, man they really gave us the business this go around.

I think it's a fairly reasonable change given that previous editions required something similar in order to run allies of any kind. Some armies being able to just grab the best unit to fill a gap in their roster is the kind of thing that can cause problems, especially when those models are also part of another entire army so just changing their points costs can have nock-on effects that you don't want.

I do think a lot of the other changes were too heavy handed. Several things have been hit multiple times. I think everyone can agree the Undivided Chosen with Lord, in a Nurgle Rhino was too good and needed adjusting. But GW chose to adjust both the Undivided and Nurgle strats and massively increase the cost of both units inside the transport, which seems excessive. There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant. The annoying thing is, there's such a huge power difference between units depending on which Mark you give them I don't think GW can ever get this right. It's yet another piece of evidence in favour of changing the current points structure back, IMO.

The general arrangement in previous editions has been one or two "allied" Troops got you an "allied" HQ and options for an "allied" Fast Attack, Heavy Support, and Elite. Now, each Daemons Battleline unit we take can be accompanied by one Herald or DP or Greater Daemon or other. If you want to take a unit of Daemon cavalry led by a hero, you need to take TWO Battleline Daemon units, and they all have to be of the same alignment.

It's a restriction that basically means nothing to a Nurgle army (Nurglings are never a tax unit) but massively constrains Bloodcrushers and Horticulous. Flamers and Screamers, too, given that their full size unit plus a Tzeentch Battleline unit is more than 250pts. Polytheist daemonkin is basically completely dead.

(I say "allied" because for the first half of 40K's life Daemons and CSM were simply the same army.)

What do people think of a little dual-Venomcrawler / Helbrute mini death star? Pretty tough, nice output of fire, sustain & lethals on 5s, 380 points…. thoughts?

Slipspace wrote:
I think it's a fairly reasonable change given that previous editions required something similar in order to run allies of any kind. Some armies being able to just grab the best unit to fill a gap in their roster is the kind of thing that can cause problems, especially when those models are also part of another entire army so just changing their points costs can have nock-on effects that you don't want.

I do think a lot of the other changes were too heavy handed. Several things have been hit multiple times. I think everyone can agree the Undivided Chosen with Lord, in a Nurgle Rhino was too good and needed adjusting. But GW chose to adjust both the Undivided and Nurgle strats and massively increase the cost of both units inside the transport, which seems excessive. There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant. The annoying thing is, there's such a huge power difference between units depending on which Mark you give them I don't think GW can ever get this right. It's yet another piece of evidence in favour of changing the current points structure back, IMO.

GW can't increase a rhinos points cost, because they would have to bump the cost of it for all armies. Does the DG or 1ksons or loyalist rhino have to pay for the fact that CSM have a good combo? Now marks could cost points and then, assuming priced correctly, even an undivided chosen+nurgle rhino combo could be okey. Even the whole undivided schtick could be that it combos with "god" stuff. But that would requier GW to intreduced separate points costs for upgrades, and they don't seem to be keen on that. At least not anytime soon.

Karol wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
I think it's a fairly reasonable change given that previous editions required something similar in order to run allies of any kind. Some armies being able to just grab the best unit to fill a gap in their roster is the kind of thing that can cause problems, especially when those models are also part of another entire army so just changing their points costs can have nock-on effects that you don't want.

I do think a lot of the other changes were too heavy handed. Several things have been hit multiple times. I think everyone can agree the Undivided Chosen with Lord, in a Nurgle Rhino was too good and needed adjusting. But GW chose to adjust both the Undivided and Nurgle strats and massively increase the cost of both units inside the transport, which seems excessive. There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant. The annoying thing is, there's such a huge power difference between units depending on which Mark you give them I don't think GW can ever get this right. It's yet another piece of evidence in favour of changing the current points structure back, IMO.

GW can't increase a rhinos points cost, because they would have to bump the cost of it for all armies.

No they wouldn't.

From a balance perspective CSM are a mess. There are too many unpaid-for upgrades and abilities that have too many massive effects on the power of a unit. Marks are the main one because they also interact with strats. You also have a lot of units with Devastating Wounds that further interact with Dark Pacts and Marks to cause serious balance problems. While the Mark giving you access to improved Lethal/Sustained Hits in either shooting or melee might seem elegant thanks to the 4 gods each getting to have one of the 4 combinations that allows, it's led to stupid situations where things like Tzeentch Possessed are almost useless.

"Slipspace wrote:...There's also been no change to some comically bad units like the Lord Discordant..." (sorry did not want to repeat the whole quote just for one sentence).

This right here is my biggest grip with the balance update. Prior to the update GW touted, "we are going to look at internal balance, yada yada yada." The the balance pass comes and boom they hit what was basically the entirety of CSM competitive units and strats. Fine, that crap happens, look what happened to Custodies with the first balance pass. But then GW does NOTHING to address the terrible internal balance in the book. So, for CSM players, you are still just going to bring the same army as before, albeit with probably one less unit to make up the points changes, as there is no incentive to bring other units, except may a few like possessed that were only slightly nudged down by chosen. Lord Discordant? utterly trash. Daemon Princes? priced like a center piece model, yet fights like a light skirmisher. CSM classic vehicles? what's the point to bring a Vindicator when a Forgefied is still only 10 points more expensive. The Predator, hahahahahahahaha, right. The other chaos characters? Still not cheap enough to compete with the Lord, even at 95 points. They did nothing to fix any of these balance issues, so all the lists will probably still be lots of lord/chosen in a Rhino (ok so now the Rhino needs to be undivided as well, still very usable), with Forgefiends, obliterators, etc, with maybe possessed coming back into fashion, and probably Cypher for lone opp as can't due daemons for that anymore.

At least our Codex is basically around the corner (probably late April/May) so maybe some of this will be addressed then, and maybe new detachments will shake up the meta of what units people use, but overall this balance pass was utter crap for CSM, and not really because of the nerfs, but becasue of the lack to correct internal balance.

Cypher would rock if he only had deep strike. Alas...

I… struggle to argue with @xeen, there.

Re Tzeentch possessed - isn’t this a decent target for Skinshift? That can be 5W recovery, potentially 6 if an attached MoP wants to dig out a sniper’s bullet. (And is this MoP a good choice of bearer of the Eye of Tzeentch? Probably going to get to shoot and fight most turns it's in play...)

Tzeentch feels wasted on possessed. Slaanesh all the way…. advance and charge w/ unnatural swiftness and with an MoP you get an effective advance and charge range of 14 inches guaranteed or max 29 inches (now thats a charge!) plus exploding 5s on an already staggering amount of hits. Scary

Slipspace wrote:
From a balance perspective CSM are a mess. There are too many unpaid-for upgrades and abilities that have too many massive effects on the power of a unit. Marks are the main one because they also interact with strats. You also have a lot of units with Devastating Wounds that further interact with Dark Pacts and Marks to cause serious balance problems. While the Mark giving you access to improved Lethal/Sustained Hits in either shooting or melee might seem elegant thanks to the 4 gods each getting to have one of the 4 combinations that allows, it's led to stupid situations where things like Tzeentch Possessed are almost useless.

I agree, this is a problem and I don't see an easy solution to it. However, it's only going to be one of our detachments, so in the future there may be detachments that make say Mark of Tzeentch on Possessed a much more appealing option. Well, I hope so at least.

lindsay40k wrote:I… struggle to argue with @xeen, there.

Re Tzeentch possessed - isn’t this a decent target for Skinshift? That can be 5W recovery, potentially 6 if an attached MoP wants to dig out a sniper’s bullet. (And is this MoP a good choice of bearer of the Eye of Tzeentch? Probably going to get to shoot and fight most turns it's in play...)

Agreed Skinshift is nice, but I think his overall point is that your mark may not do much of anything if you don't favor shooting (or melee for Khorne) so it leads to situations where you may never want to give a certain unit a God's mark even if it's fairly fluffy.

I personally put Eye of Tzeentch on my Fell Commune + Accursed Cultists since they're really hard to obliterate so there's good odds of getting to use the eye the entire game. My MoP + Possessed are more of a cruise missile and rarely survive all 5 rounds.

Kangarupe wrote:
What do people think of a little dual-Venomcrawler / Helbrute mini death star? Pretty tough, nice output of fire, sustain & lethals on 5s, 380 points…. thoughts?

Seems nice and fluffy. Unfortunatly often you will be forced to split them because of Terrain. Also with Lots of Body blocking and movement blocking you can only Hope they get far. Could still be lovely for a flank to hold and supercool.
Still damage Output shouldnt overwhelm any enemy. Still a Hammer helbrute could surprise. If only shooty then you waste a lot of melee capabilities

Hi all,

Since the Balance Dataslate was released, I've been using the following list:


Abaddon the Despoiler

Master of Possession* (Nurgle)

Chosen (Nurgle)(x10)

Chaos Rhino (Nurgle)

Helbrute (Nurgle)

Chaos Terminators (Undivided)(x10)

Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x8)

Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)

Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)

Raptors (Slaanesh)(x5)

Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle)

Forgefiend (Undivided)

Allies

Nurglings (x3)

*Liber Hereticus


Interestingly, the list I had been playing pre-slate was moving in a direction that environment post-slate is friendlier to.

Specifically, a small AC unit for objective grabbing without a Dark Commune. I dropped the Land Raider in favor of a Rhino and Predator, which fulfils the same purpose. But with the Rhino I have another objective grabber and action-doer. I lost the Seekers but added in some bikes, which is sad, but I feel the list has enough units to do actions and grab objectives and enough screening from the Cultists and Nurglings, that I can protect the Terminator brick with Abaddon.

I still feel the CSM Terminator brick fills a role that is much needed. Namely, being a mid-board deterrent and the overwatch from the unit is so good at clearing out small skirmishing units and scouts.

Its only weakness was Precision Chosen/Lords and Forgefiends and this was admittedly hard to counter, but in most games I found I was able to put part of the unit in a ruin and screen the first floor with Cultists, making a Turn 1 charge not viable to pull off. Now with the nerf to Chosen/Lords and Forgefiends I actually think this unit is a lot more viable. Space Wolves, Orks and World Eaters may still cause some issues, but the unit can be screened against those armies.

Warp Talons are replaced with Raptors with plasma guns. I think they're great: cheaper and can do work in shooting and assault.

Even though they are expensive I kept Chosen, because they are so useful. They have to be Nurgle now though, in order for me to be able to stage charges with the Rhino and not have it shot straight away. It would be better, though, if they were Undivided.

The list is much more flexible, I have more activations in both shooting and assault, meaning I can pop transports and then charge the contents. It also has more potential for actions and objective scoring, without losing damage potential across multiple activations.

In short, I actually think the list is more efficient than the pre-slate archetypes I had been using. Its more dynamic and fun, for sure. At the same time most of the other armies that were dominant have gotten substantially weaker.

Best,
Samii.

I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

 xeen wrote:
I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

I think people need to play CSM in a different way. Old Chosen would just fold up a flank: that was boring to play against.

CSM have a lot of cheap, tough, fast scoring units with excellent damage potential (AC, Bikes, Raptors, Cultists etc.). The Terminator brick and Chosen are there to shore up threats to the objective grabbers by threatening a counter attack, rather than, in my opinion, just rolling over the opponent. The Terminators are there to punish units that come out of the DZ and threaten a devastating counter-charge, using the Tzeentch resurrection trick. Often, a savvy opponent will not shoot the unit, because they know you can do this, so the Nurgle strat doesn't even have to be used on them. It can be used on the AC unit scoring the central objective, for example. Here the Terminator unit is actually there to support the scoring units and act as a deterrent.

Liber Hereticus Chosen can be used to do lightning fast counter-strikes, that are more about tagging up the enemy.

The Nurgle Chosen can be deployed forward and then knock units off an objective before staging a strike into the enemy DZ. I'll illustrate with an example. My Rhino with Chosen is deployed just behind the line. Swooping Hawks grab the mid-field objective. The Rhino uses Nurgle strat and so enemy shooting is mitigated. In my turn the Rhino pushes the Hawks off the objective. Next turn Chosen pop out and move up to the enemy DZ. Shooting from the unit drops a Night Spinner, they then charge a Wraithguard unit. Old Chosen would have rolled over the unit, but now I kill three and Precision out the Seer. In his turn he falls back and shoots and counter charges. The shooting does less damage then expected, as I use the -1 to hit strat and AoC and have cover and a 6+++. I lose one to Wraithcannon shooting and then I get counter charged by an Yncarne and Phoenix Lord. I choose to fight on death and am able to kill the Yncarne, though I lose about half the unit and the Phoenix Lord Precisions out the MoP. Next turn they fallback and shoot/charge and with support from a Forgefiend, finish off the Wraithguard, Phoenix Lord and Farseer. That's a massive trade up. Sure, it took longer than old Chosen, but it created a distraction that meant my scoring units were just being ignored.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

I think people need to play CSM in a different way. Old Chosen would just fold up a flank: that was boring to play against.

CSM have a lot of cheap, tough, fast scoring units with excellent damage potential (AC, Bikes, Raptors, Cultists etc.). The Terminator brick and Chosen are there to shore up threats to the objective grabbers by threatening a counter attack, rather than, in my opinion, just rolling over the opponent. The Terminators are there to punish units that come out of the DZ and threaten a devastating counter-charge, using the Tzeentch resurrection trick. Often, a savvy opponent will not shoot the unit, because they know you can do this, so the Nurgle strat doesn't even have to be used on them. It can be used on the AC unit scoring the central objective, for example. Here the Terminator unit is actually there to support the scoring units and act as a deterrent.

Liber Hereticus Chosen can be used to do lightning fast counter-strikes, that are more about tagging up the enemy.

The Nurgle Chosen can be deployed forward and then knock units off an objective before staging a strike into the enemy DZ. I'll illustrate with an example. My Rhino with Chosen is deployed just behind the line. Swooping Hawks grab the mid-field objective. The Rhino uses Nurgle strat and so enemy shooting is mitigated. In my turn the Rhino pushes the Hawks off the objective. Next turn Chosen pop out and move up to the enemy DZ. Shooting from the unit drops a Night Spinner, they then charge a Wraithguard unit. Old Chosen would have rolled over the unit, but now I kill three and Precision out the Seer. In his turn he falls back and shoots and counter charges. The shooting does less damage then expected, as I use the -1 to hit strat and AoC and have cover and a 6+++. I lose one to Wraithcannon shooting and then I get counter charged by an Yncarne and Phoenix Lord. I choose to fight on death and am able to kill the Yncarne, though I lose about half the unit and the Phoenix Lord Precisions out the MoP. Next turn they fallback and shoot/charge and with support from a Forgefiend, finish off the Wraithguard, Phoenix Lord and Farseer. That's a massive trade up. Sure, it took longer than old Chosen, but it created a distraction that meant my scoring units were just being ignored.

Best,
Samii.

I don't think you can take the Liber Hereticus on a unit with the mark of Nurgle. It says "Undivided only". I like your list and strategy, I just think the Chosen as undivided would be more optimal.

I am thinking of using possessed instead of Chosen. I am also playing around with bringing Vindicators. With Nurgle they can still put out a lot of shots with their main gun, but I still wish they were like 15 points cheaper.

I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

Kangarupe wrote:
I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

This same comparison applies to most of our Loyalist counterparts in my experience, after several consecutive games of CSM vs SM.

The Armor of Contempt price difference is a microcosm of the usual Chaos tax problem.

 xeen wrote:

Samii wrote:

 xeen wrote:
I think undivided chosen is more important than nurgle rhino as if they don’t sting upon delivery then it doesn’t matter if they get there. Or maybe even slannesh.

I think people need to play CSM in a different way. Old Chosen would just fold up a flank: that was boring to play against.

CSM have a lot of cheap, tough, fast scoring units with excellent damage potential (AC, Bikes, Raptors, Cultists etc.). The Terminator brick and Chosen are there to shore up threats to the objective grabbers by threatening a counter attack, rather than, in my opinion, just rolling over the opponent. The Terminators are there to punish units that come out of the DZ and threaten a devastating counter-charge, using the Tzeentch resurrection trick. Often, a savvy opponent will not shoot the unit, because they know you can do this, so the Nurgle strat doesn't even have to be used on them. It can be used on the AC unit scoring the central objective, for example. Here the Terminator unit is actually there to support the scoring units and act as a deterrent.

Liber Hereticus Chosen can be used to do lightning fast counter-strikes, that are more about tagging up the enemy.

The Nurgle Chosen can be deployed forward and then knock units off an objective before staging a strike into the enemy DZ. I'll illustrate with an example. My Rhino with Chosen is deployed just behind the line. Swooping Hawks grab the mid-field objective. The Rhino uses Nurgle strat and so enemy shooting is mitigated. In my turn the Rhino pushes the Hawks off the objective. Next turn Chosen pop out and move up to the enemy DZ. Shooting from the unit drops a Night Spinner, they then charge a Wraithguard unit. Old Chosen would have rolled over the unit, but now I kill three and Precision out the Seer. In his turn he falls back and shoots and counter charges. The shooting does less damage then expected, as I use the -1 to hit strat and AoC and have cover and a 6+++. I lose one to Wraithcannon shooting and then I get counter charged by an Yncarne and Phoenix Lord. I choose to fight on death and am able to kill the Yncarne, though I lose about half the unit and the Phoenix Lord Precisions out the MoP. Next turn they fallback and shoot/charge and with support from a Forgefiend, finish off the Wraithguard, Phoenix Lord and Farseer. That's a massive trade up. Sure, it took longer than old Chosen, but it created a distraction that meant my scoring units were just being ignored.

Best,
Samii.

I don't think you can take the Liber Hereticus on a unit with the mark of Nurgle. It says "Undivided only". I like your list and strategy, I just think the Chosen as undivided would be more optimal.

I am thinking of using possessed instead of Chosen. I am also playing around with bringing Vindicators. With Nurgle they can still put out a lot of shots with their main gun, but I still wish they were like 15 points cheaper.

Missed that .

 Havic1137 wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

This same comparison applies to most of our Loyalist counterparts in my experience, after several consecutive games of CSM vs SM.

The Armor of Contempt price difference is a microcosm of the usual Chaos tax problem.

I thought about it a lot over the last couple days of list building though. The point difference there is 15 points. It's quite possible that its a fair if not favorable trade. I forgot the quintessential fact that possessed are 3 wounds a piece, and at T6 too that is nothing to balk at. However DC do get to re-roll hits, but not being able to fall back sucks too...I don't know. Like I said...maybe even

Kangarupe wrote:

 Havic1137 wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:
I love the possessed, they're one of my favorite models visually and they're beastly. However I play my buddies Blood Angels quite a bit, and I gotta tell ya, his 10x Jump Pack Death Company + Chaplain vs. our 10x Possessed + MoP is more effective and cheaper. It puts a sting on me wanting to bring them personally.

This same comparison applies to most of our Loyalist counterparts in my experience, after several consecutive games of CSM vs SM.

The Armor of Contempt price difference is a microcosm of the usual Chaos tax problem.

I thought about it a lot over the last couple days of list building though. The point difference there is 15 points. It's quite possible that its a fair if not favorable trade. I forgot the quintessential fact that possessed are 3 wounds a piece, and at T6 too that is nothing to balk at. However DC do get to re-roll hits, but not being able to fall back sucks too...I don't know. Like I said...maybe even

Perhaps my dice luck are awful or perhaps I am just bad at the game (both possibilities I will concede), but I have rarely found the extra wound or toughness to truly matter against Loyalist marines by the quality of their weapon options and their special abilities/strategems compared to ours. My terminator blocks or Chosen may be up to their eyeballs in defensive buffs and they get wiped out within a single turn - maybe lasting until the next enemy shooting phase if I am lucky. By comparison, I barely do a number on Bladeguard vets, who are just better than our Chosen. Chosen currently sit at 130 points for an MSU squad. Bladeguard veterans are 90 points. Bladeguards are also just better in a straight up fight with their special rule compared to the bit of extra mobility Chosen get. I have no idea why this is the case. Is someone gonna tell me its because Chosen have better shooting?

Chaos Marines more or less have to work harder to get what Loyalist Marines are handed. This is the price of playing the unfavored children.

Hi all,

I have played quite a few games now with the new list. Its the same as the one I posed a while back, except I replaced the Liber Hereticus with another Nurgling unit.

I think the key to new CSM is to find a balance of scoring and anchor/damage units, with a small overlap between the two. The scoring elements should be MSU and the anchors should be more robust, in my opinion. But both complement and work together. There's overlap because CSM scoring units can also do damage (especially with a Helbrute and/or Abaddon); only the Nurglings exist purely for actions (Teleport Homers, Investigate Signal), or screening.

I think I've hit on the right combination of units. Its best to illustrate with an overview of the units themselves.


Abaddon the Despoiler (Anchor) -

First, he's expensive, but let's calculate his relative worth. At base, Abaddon has the profile of three Terminators (which is about 120 points). Now, he hits in melee, with a good bit more force than the shooting of an Undivided Forgefiend (about 200 points and infamous for its lethality; used here for reference). If Abaddon is attached to Terminators he can get around the battlefield. Using the Tzeentch resurrection trick, advance and charge gives you decent chance to get into the enemy DZ from turn 2, if the opponent isn't watching what s/he's doing. In fact, most opponents will not want to shoot this unit, knowing this could happen. So, the point being, that melee force can certainly be leveraged.

He has some shooting, probably worth three Terminators.

He generates command points.

He gives very useful aura buffs.

He gives all the Marks to his Terminator unit, which grants them niche abilities like the one noted above; it also makes them unshootable etc. and LD 5+ and 30% more OC.

I would say Abaddon's points were worth it if he did only a few of the above: as it is, he does a lot of heavy lifting.


Master of Possession (Nurgle)(Anchor/Scoring) -

Taken with Chosen the MoP turns that unit into a completely different entity, one which can reliably score BEL and has WE-esque levels of mobility. While its damage output was knocked, I think the unit is more useful as a distraction/assassin type unit that can potentially score, once its done its job. The 6+++ is just a bonus.


Chosen (Nurgle)(x10)(Anchor/Scoring) -

See above. Also, being able to advance/fall back and do actions, means that Chosen can grab you points when the unit becomes small, or has lost the MoP.


Chaos Rhino (Nurgle)(Scoring) -

The Rhino enables the speedy Chosen combo, but it can also do actions itself, is tough and cheap. Also, paired with the Helbrute, the MoP staff and a plasma pistol/combi-weapon shot from the hatch can be surprisingly dangerous and the former is quite good at sniping characters; in addition to its own weapons being good for clearing chaff.


Helbrute (Nurgle)(Anchor) -

Exists as a force multiplier, has decent shooting and decent melee. I find that the Helbrute makes the scoring units (Bikes, Cultists, Raptors) a lot more dangerous than they would ordinarily be and this lets you potentially create a 'second' front around the Helbrute with these, when Abaddon is elsewhere. It also increases the damage of the Predator and potentially the Chosen, if it can keep up with them.


Chaos Terminators (Undivided)(x10)(Anchor/Scoring) -

See above (Abaddon). The Terminators are a unique unit. They suffer from the same weaknesses as a lot of elite infantry (mobility/vulnerability to certain weapon systems), but their niche abilities enable them to overcome these weaknesses in dramatic ways. In particular, I like being able to overwatch with the unit on turn 1, with the benefit of rerolls, the Undivided pact and potential to command point regen with Abaddon. The overwatch is good enough to clear chaff off of objectives, denying scoring etc. In subsequent turns, the Forgefiend can reroll overwatch with Abaddon and intercept a lot of the unit's key threats, acting as a bulwark to shore it against.

Its melee is excellent and its shooting is about equal to a Forgefiend.

Finally, because you have all the Marks, remember that the unit can fall back/advance and still do an action, when everything else has died.


Accursed Cultists (Nurgle)(x8)(Scoring) -

They are tough, with Abaddon potentially giving a 4++. I still think a smaller unit is better. I like to trail the unit onto the center objective turn 1 and pop the Nurgle strat after a few have died. This way, enemy shooting gets split. You get taken off the objective sure, but next turn you regen, getting a movement bonus (about 3") and are back there and slightly further up than you were before. The unit has decent melee.


Chaos Cultists (Nurgle)(x10)(Scoring) -

They are cheap and give you sticky objectives. The shooting is very good with Abaddon and Helbrute nearby. They are excellent value in my opinion.


Chaos Bikes (Nurgle)(x3)(Scoring) -

The most underrated CSM unit. While compared to Outriders, they are slightly softer (about 25%), but have vastly better shooting when given full plasma. In range of the a Helbrute they become a threat to armour. With their reserve trick, they are the only really reliable way to score Engage on turn 1 and BEL, Teleport Homers and Investigate in later turns, but most importantly, they can keep scoring them. If I were using Nurglings to do this, after Deep Striking they are stranded, but bikes can appear anywhere more or less, when needed to do those key actions. They can even screen out the backfield and then pop up later. Also, importantly they have an Icon.


Raptors (Slaanesh)(x5)(Scoring) -

As Slaanesh they can advance and do actions/charge giving them an excellent range of effect, plus potential for BEL early game. With full plasma they shoot well (like the Bikes) and have at least as good melee as Jump Intercessors, certainly so in range of the Helbrute. They can also turn off enemy OC, which is very, very useful now that CSM are struggling a bit in that department (with AC losing OC2).


Chaos Predator Annihilator (Nurgle)(Anchor) -

The Predator is a cheap, decent shooting platform, especially in range of Abaddon and a Helbrute.


Forgefiend (Undivided)(Anchor) -

Excellent shooting unit, still will get its points back (and more) against elite infantry. Potential OW (paired with Abaddon) allows it to protect the Terminators and for them to be used in a more aggressive way.


Nurglings (x3)(Scoring) -

Are cheap, can Infiltrate and Deep Strike. 40 pts to guarantee BEL, Homers, Investigate etc., still worth it. These are the only units that exist entirely for actions, but I also like to use them to screen the Terminators, or block units in the DZ so that I can, conversely move the Terminators a bit further forward.


Nurglings (x3)(Scoring) -

Ditto.

Thanks,
Samii.

So I like that list, however I have a few thoughts.....

I still disagree with you that Nurgle on the Chosen is not a complete waste. The only reason to do that is to put them in a Nurgle Rhino, which is Nurgle to use the strat. It is really only relevant turn one, as by turn two your chosen should be in enemy lines, so the strat has no purpose anymore. Also you state that you can even use the strat on the accursed cultists turn one to cover them, which means you are not using it on the Rhino, and if you don't use it at all on the chosen or their Rhino you get 0 value from Nurgle. Also unless you are playing on boards with 0 LOS blocking terrain, I usually am able to hide on Rhino. And if you make the Chosen undivided you can bring the Liber which is massive. I think the niche strategy of being able to use the Nurgle strat doesn't outweigh being undivided or even Slannessh or Khorne. (I have used Khorne and it can be effective punching up with the lethal hits).

On the opposite end, I would make the Raptors Nurgle. They have a long enough move not to really need advance and charge, or you will probably deep strike them anyway. The added value of extra plasma hits on 5+ is certainly more meaningful against more targets than the extra hits on the chain sword attacks. And this unit late game is likely to be on an objective away from the main fight, so using the Nurgle Strat on them end game could be good.

Finally, the predator. I personally don't like them. However, I don't know what I would use instead. I like vindicators, but they are 60 points more for some reason. 4 laser cannon havocs with Nurgle could be good, and is only 5 points more. Less survivable than the predator, but able to move though ruins to get angles, and one extra LC shot. (the predator turret should be shatter soul laser cannons like the landraider, so it gets two shots from the turret. That would make is much more considerable.) If you are not dead set on AT, for a replacement, warptalons could be good, to do the bullying you were doing with the raptors, and then let the raptors focus on dropping in and plasma stuff to death and harass the backfield. A 5 man possessed squad is only 10 points more, could also be good.

Just some thoughts for your consideration. Look forward to hearing about any games in which you use the list.

 xeen wrote:
So I like that list, however I have a few thoughts.....

I still disagree with you that Nurgle on the Chosen is not a complete waste. The only reason to do that is to put them in a Nurgle Rhino, which is Nurgle to use the strat. It is really only relevant turn one, as by turn two your chosen should be in enemy lines, so the strat has no purpose anymore. Also you state that you can even use the strat on the accursed cultists turn one to cover them, which means you are not using it on the Rhino, and if you don't use it at all on the chosen or their Rhino you get 0 value from Nurgle. Also unless you are playing on boards with 0 LOS blocking terrain, I usually am able to hide on Rhino. And if you make the Chosen undivided you can bring the Liber which is massive. I think the niche strategy of being able to use the Nurgle strat doesn't outweigh being undivided or even Slannessh or Khorne. (I have used Khorne and it can be effective punching up with the lethal hits).

On the opposite end, I would make the Raptors Nurgle. They have a long enough move not to really need advance and charge, or you will probably deep strike them anyway. The added value of extra plasma hits on 5+ is certainly more meaningful against more targets than the extra hits on the chain sword attacks. And this unit late game is likely to be on an objective away from the main fight, so using the Nurgle Strat on them end game could be good.

Finally, the predator. I personally don't like them. However, I don't know what I would use instead. I like vindicators, but they are 60 points more for some reason. 4 laser cannon havocs with Nurgle could be good, and is only 5 points more. Less survivable than the predator, but able to move though ruins to get angles, and one extra LC shot. (the predator turret should be shatter soul laser cannons like the landraider, so it gets two shots from the turret. That would make is much more considerable.) If you are not dead set on AT, for a replacement, warptalons could be good, to do the bullying you were doing with the raptors, and then let the raptors focus on dropping in and plasma stuff to death and harass the backfield. A 5 man possessed squad is only 10 points more, could also be good.

Just some thoughts for your consideration. Look forward to hearing about any games in which you use the list.

The Nurgle Rhino is about staging. It just gives me the option to put it further up the board. I like the enemy to make decisions about what to shoot. If I go first, the Rhino zips behind a wall in the midfield and then most likely the AC get it (the Nurgle strat), or the Terminators etc.

Having a lot of Nurgle units means the opponent has to think harder and can make more mistakes. At the same time, not everything should be (Nurgle).

I am open to the Undivided Chosen, but it feels like I lose a bit of strategic value, not having the staging option.

Nurgle Raptors, I also thought about

I like Slaanesh, because it gives me a better shot at scoring Behind Enemy Lines or Engage, if I get lucky a charge off on Turn 1. I also like having Khorne and Slaanesh units with a Helbrute, because they gain a lot more from it in melee (exploding and auto wounds on 5+).

Yes, they might be better overall at shooting if they were Nurgle, but I have that base covered.

Remember they can do an action too, with the advance if they are Slaanesh. The difference between being able to do an action at 12" and 15.5/16" might not seem much but it can make a big difference in the game.

You might say, why not just take Slaanesh Warp Talons. Well, they are more expensive and the Slaanesh Raptors, can still do more damage across phases, even if they don't shoot as well, as if they were Nurgle.

Finally, the Predator. Yes, I lose one Lascannon, but with the turret being twin-linked, S14 and rr damage 1, I gain a marginal anti-tank benefit over the LR. I also gain an extra set of Havoc Launchers and Combi-bolters, than what I had before.

Best,
Samii.

Samii wrote:
Hi all,

Chaos Terminators (Undivided)(x10)(Anchor/Scoring) -

See above (Abaddon). The Terminators are a unique unit. They suffer from the same weaknesses as a lot of elite infantry (mobility/vulnerability to certain weapon systems), but their niche abilities enable them to overcome these weaknesses in dramatic ways. In particular, I like being able to overwatch with the unit on turn 1, with the benefit of rerolls, the Undivided pact and potential to command point regen with Abaddon. The overwatch is good enough to clear chaff off of objectives, denying scoring etc. In subsequent turns, the Forgefiend can reroll overwatch with Abaddon and intercept a lot of the unit's key threats, acting as a bulwark to shore it against.

I don't think I explained the above fully, it just sits in the paragraph, so I'll give it a better shot.

CSM Terminators with Abaddon can dark pact if the opponent goes first and overwatch, because Undivided doesn't have the caveat that it needs to happen in the assault or shooting phases. This means you can overwatch, get a command point back from Abaddon and then use it later in the opponent's or your turn, on the Nurgle strat, for example.

This means you get to overwatch for free essentially. It also helps that the Terminators reroll hits when they dark pact, if you go second.

It might seem a bit unwieldy of an explanation, but I have found myself doing this quite a bit and its useful.

Best,
Samii.

Hey. I’m new to 40k and csm. Only played three games so far.
Tomorrow I will play against death guard. I made a list. Like to hear your thoughts about it.
Put in the DP because I like the model. But it’s ok to take something else (obliterators, mop, moe,…).

2000 (1995 Points)

Chaos Space Marines
Slaves to Darkness
Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS

Abaddon the Despoiler (310 Points)
• Warlord
• 1x Drach’nyen
1x Talon of Horus

Chaos Lord (95 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Bolt Pistol
1x Daemon hammer

Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince with Wings (210 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Hellforged weapons
1x Infernal cannon
• Enhancements: Intoxicating Elixir

BATTLELINE

Cultist Mob (55 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Cultist Champion
• 1x Autopistol
1x Brutal assault weapon
• 9x Chaos Cultist
• 9x Autopistol
9x Brutal assault weapon

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Chaos Rhino (75 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-bolter

OTHER DATASHEETS

Chaos Predator Destructor (130 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-weapon
1x Havoc launcher
2x Heavy bolter
1x Predator autocannon

Chaos Predator Destructor (130 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Combi-weapon
1x Havoc launcher
2x Heavy bolter
1x Predator autocannon

Chaos Terminator Squad (390 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Nurgle
• 1x Terminator Champion
• 1x Accursed weapon
1x Combi-weapon
• 9x Chaos Terminator
• 3x Accursed weapon
7x Combi-weapon
6x Power fist
2x Reaper autocannon

Chosen (260 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Chosen Champion
• 1x Accursed weapon
1x Bolt pistol
1x Boltgun
• 9x Chosen
• 5x Accursed weapon
9x Bolt pistol
3x Boltgun
1x Chaos Icon
4x Combi-weapon
2x Paired accursed weapons
2x Power fist

Forgefiend (200 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Chaos Undivided
• 1x Armoured limbs
1x Ectoplasma cannon
2x Ectoplasma cannon

Possessed (140 Points)
• Mark of Chaos: Slaanesh
• 1x Possessed Champion
• 1x Hideous mutations
• 4x Possessed
• 1x Chaos Icon
4x Hideous mutations

Exported with App Version: v1.10.1 (30), Data Version: v336

I like the list, the only thing I would be a bit mmmm about is the predators as I think they are a bit over costed for what they do. I like oblits better if you have them to replace one, and they you would have 80 points, (95 if you drop the elixir) to bring something else. However, I would be interested to hear how they work out.

I like the DP, but you have to remember he is not a centerpiece damage dealer. He needs to bully lesser infantry units (don't put him against anything tough, like tanks or Morty) and he is really good at disrupting the backfield. I like to use his speed to get an early charge in on something, then if he is still engaged, use the strat to "fall back" toward the enemy backfield and still charge. It puts him in the enemy DP as early as turn 2, where he can pick on weaker backfield units and disrupt primary scoring. His main problem is that he is about 15 points to much for bringing this tactic. They really need to give him S10, or make him cheaper and he would be much improved. Hope this helps, good luck can't wait to hear how it goes.

Thanks for your reply. I don’t have predators, I take the space marine models from my opponent to try them 😂 But I have 4 obliterators. I like them. But I read that heavy bolter with sustained and lethal on 5+ is great (tzeentch).

I have no idea how to play the DP correct. So o have to read your game plan for the DP again and again


Which unit would be good in reserve or deep strike?

I would start it all on the board against death guard.

So just to keep the conversation going on this tread so it doesn't become to buried, what are people's opinions of the WORST three units in the index?

My choices are as follows:

3. Traitor Enforcer - I know this is a bit of a niche unit, but it is in the index. For me the problem with this guy is that he just doesn't fit with what he attaches to. He can only join the Traitor Guardsmen, and they are only 10 man squads. So the same with any HQ that joins cheap units, the HQ needs to be cheap as well. Here you can get another squad of Traitor Guardsmen for just 5 points more. An while this guy does bring some decent close combat, he is attached to a unit that doesn't want to be in combat and is usually in the backfield. And the abilities are not really useful, the first being 4+ FNP for the Enforcer, which only protects against precision, which why would you opponent waste that on this guy. Second is the "moral" type rule that lets them use the Insane Bravery strat for free. However, that is now limited to once per game, and the ability language does not counter that, so it would count toward your total use. There may be a circumstance where this could be helpful, but it will be few and far between.

I think if they wanted to make him better other than a price cut (which he needs badly even with the good CC) allowing him to attach to cultists would help. Leading a squad of 20 CC cultists could actually make this guy worth something, probably not at the current cost though. Or make the FNP smaller like 5+++ but apply to the squad. The models for this are cool so it is a shame that they are not really useable.

2. Lord Discordant - This guy's level of suckatude really hurts my soul as he is one of my favorite models. But right now he is not only bad, he is unplayable bad. Just compare him to the Daemon Prince with wings, who is the same price, but has 6 attacks and D3 on the big attack and the DP isn't a real competitive choice either. Yea the LD gets two more attacks with the combination of the main attack and the limbs, but the limbs are not very good. His ability is a bit niche, the two times I used him he only got to use it once, and the opponent passed the leadership test, so just -1. The other ability to re-roll 1's to wound on a vehicle is ok, but the range is very short.

To make him better I don't want cheaper. I want better, even if he gets pricier. I think if you gave his main attack 6 attacks and D3, added a shot and AP to the cannon (so it competes with the flamer), gave him a 4++ (he is a lord) and made the second ability that if a vehicle is destroyed within 12 inches of him he regains some wounds, he would be something to consider, especially at 190. Quick aside on the DP, if they just gave him base S10 and the main attack ap-3 so he could fight bigger enemy units like monsters and vehicles, I think he would be much much better.

1. The beastmen - now again, I know these guys are a niche unit, but their level of suck is just extraordinary. I was going to play around with a fun list and was going to take some of my Tgors to proxy as them, but after looking at their rules, they aren't even worth bringing in a fun game. They are 5 points MORE expensive than 5 Legionaries for the same number of wounds (yes I know the legionaries are more susceptible to multi-wound shots, but still) with much weaker attacks (WS 4+ S4 no ap) and a much worse save. They scout so that's something I guess, and they get +2 to charge units on an objective, however that is only useful if the unit can harm what they are charging, and this unit probably can't.

This is the one case where they just need to deduct like 20 or so points. I don't know if I would use them at 75 or even 70 as you can get traitor guard for that amount, maybe if I thought scout could be helpful. Also, maybe if you could attach a Dark Apostle (he can joint cultists/AC cultists) so you could give them a bit more hitting power in CC that would be good. But right now, no way I would take these guys (and again it is a shame as the models are pretty cool)

Honorable mention. Helldrake - yea I know flyers just generally suck, but he is not very good. Yea if the opponent has a lot of FLY units he can do some damage to them, but he is so tall you can't really hide him, and his defense is pretty weak. He might be a good distraction, but you are paying a lot for that distraction. Again a winged DP is cheaper, better against anything that isn't FLY, can be upgraded, is easier to hide, with a better defense. Yea the Helldrake might be faster, but the DP with wings is already pretty fast, especially Slannesh. The shooting might also be better than the DP, but not by a whole lot. Maybe if he had like a fly over Mortal Wound ability he might be better, but probably not.

So that my worst three units. Do people agree or disagree?

Also of note, there are strong rumors that a new jump lord is coming. I have the old model and would LOVE to have it back in the codex, especially if he can lead warptalons. Keep your fingers crossed.