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Nothing wrong with ordering soon. But judging from the comments by lawyers, GW has to do much better if they want to have a chance in this case.

GW are far too precious about this and it's their own fault for not releasing stuff. If you create a demand for a product and then don't actually supply the product, expect somebody else to step in.

It's not like GW don't borrow heavily from other sci-fi and fantasy sources. I'm surprised Gene Roddenberry didn't come knocking when he read the fluff for Vulcans... sorry I mean Eldar (yes, I realise this is not the same thing, but still... )

Anyhoo, Chapterhouse I salute you

Kroothawk wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:But thats the thing; what really will stop bit companies from making and labelling that their bits are designed for warhammer 40k if this wins? If this happens; GW will lose alot of money; and armies will recieve less support; maybe with some even being squatted.
Nobody wants that to happen.

Yeah, nobody wants aftermarket products, because everyone knows that aftermarket products are the end of the world, and you don't want the world to end, do you?

World? at least the full extent of the universe that we know will collapse into a abysmal black hole

Moving to discussions.

NAVARRO wrote:World? at least the full extent of the universe that we know will collapse into a abysmal black hole

And all in the hands of a localUS judge
Reminds me of the movie Dogma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma_%28film%29

odinsgrandson wrote:Chapterhouse Studios submitted a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Games Workshop filed against them on the basis of lack of specificity.

Basically they're saying that Games Workshop needs to cite specific instances of trademark or copyright violations. This makes sense to me, since there isn't really any way to defend yourself against vague claims.

I have yet to find any response from Games Workshop's legal team.



For those of you who are new to this topic, Chapterhouse Studios is one of many companies that creates conversion parts for Games Workshop kits. The difference between them and other companies is that Chapterhouse openly acknowledges on their website what conversion parts will fit with what GW kits.

Altogether, I personally wonder whether GW has a case at all, or if they were banking on Chapterhouse to be unable to defend themselves legally (Chapterhouse has a lawfirm defending them pro-bono).

The implication if Chapterhouse wins the case, is that third party conversion bits will be able to openly acknowledge that the parts they are creating are meant for specific GW kits (and be able to specify which ones).


By the way, it is likely that this topic will get out of hand, and eventually be locked. I understand that many people here have very strong feelings on this subject, so let's try and keep it civil for as long as we can.

Big deal. I can file ten motions out of my butt and motions to dismiss are routine. It only means anything if they are actually granted, which I've not seen here. Until then, congratulations you posted a thread that literally says nothing.

If Games Workshop loses this case could they face litigation down the line if a company (let's say Chapterhouse) produces a Tyrannofex conversion kit and then GW produces its own Tyrannofex conversion kit?

Would the copyright be lost by not protecting it like this and actually allow a conversion of the original GW idea to become a copyright of the company who made the bit or would it remain with GW as the original copyright owners?

Legally naive but curious here

Little Pete wrote:If Games Workshop loses this case could they face litigation down the line if a company (let's say Chapterhouse) produces a Tyrannofex conversion kit and then GW produces its own Tyrannofex conversion kit?

Would the copyright be lost by not protecting it like this and actually allow a conversion of the original GW idea to become a copyright of the company who made the bit or would it remain with GW as the original copyright owners?

Legally naive but curious here

Umm, there's a complicated answer, but the simple answer is no.

If you want bits from Chapter House then buy them. The company will be glad of your custom.

I doubt they are going away soon, though.

The weight of informed opinion is that GW are on a rather sticky wicket with this suit. It has the look of a suit whose chance of success depends more on the prohibitive cost of defending it, than on the merits of the case.

If that is the situation, once Chapter House got pro bono (i.e. free) representation from a respected firm with knowledge in the IP area, GW's chances of success declined significantly. One might like to consider why a respected firm would give pro bono defence to a defendant with a rotten case.

I would like to thank Polonius and Janthkin for their erudite contributions to the thread. There are some people on the internet who know what they are talking about.

Kroothawk wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:But thats the thing; what really will stop bit companies from making and labelling that their bits are designed for warhammer 40k if this wins? If this happens; GW will lose alot of money; and armies will recieve less support; maybe with some even being squatted.
Nobody wants that to happen.

Yeah, nobody wants aftermarket products, because everyone knows that aftermarket products are the end of the world, and you don't want the world to end, do you?

I'm just concerned. I'm not anti-CH, some of their stuff is good. But I really only play 40k cause one army appeals to me; if that army gets squatted because of people making almost questionably similar stuff; then I've got no reason to play any wargaming (as no other game has an army similar enough to it). The aftermarkets stuff is iffy.

I'm just concerned really. I'd prefer something better to be worked out like this: CH are allowed to continue; but enter into a contract with GW; where a percentage of the profit from 40k-close stuff/kits goes to GW. Both companies profit and CH will get somewhat of a buffer in case of financial turmoil. Win/win.

odinsgrandson wrote:Chapterhouse Studios submitted a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Games Workshop filed against them on the basis of lack of specificity.

Basically they're saying that Games Workshop needs to cite specific instances of trademark or copyright violations. This makes sense to me, since there isn't really any way to defend yourself against vague claims.

Wait, since when do you have to reference specific facts in a claim for copyright infringement? Notice pleading isn't enough anymore?

List your copyrights, assert that the other side is infringing, done.

Polonius wrote:Umm, there's a complicated answer, but the simple answer is no.

Best (non-legally binding) legal advice ever!

Polonius wrote:

Little Pete wrote:If Games Workshop loses this case could they face litigation down the line if a company (let's say Chapterhouse) produces a Tyrannofex conversion kit and then GW produces its own Tyrannofex conversion kit?

Would the copyright be lost by not protecting it like this and actually allow a conversion of the original GW idea to become a copyright of the company who made the bit or would it remain with GW as the original copyright owners?

Legally naive but curious here

Umm, there's a complicated answer, but the simple answer is no.

And that there will be $495.00 Please pay the receptionist on the way out.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:But thats the thing; what really will stop bit companies from making and labelling that their bits are designed for warhammer 40k if this wins? If this happens; GW will lose alot of money; and armies will recieve less support; maybe with some even being squatted.
Nobody wants that to happen.

Yeah, nobody wants aftermarket products, because everyone knows that aftermarket products are the end of the world, and you don't want the world to end, do you?

I'm just concerned. I'm not anti-CH, some of their stuff is good. But I really only play 40k cause one army appeals to me; if that army gets squatted because of people making almost questionably similar stuff; then I've got no reason to play any wargaming (as no other game has an army similar enough to it). The aftermarkets stuff is iffy.

I'm just concerned really. I'd prefer something better to be worked out like this: CH are allowed to continue; but enter into a contract with GW; where a percentage of the profit from 40k-close stuff/kits goes to GW. Both companies profit and CH will get somewhat of a buffer in case of financial turmoil. Win/win.

Chapter House only make stuff that isn't made by GW. That is why there is a market for it.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

biccat wrote:

odinsgrandson wrote:Chapterhouse Studios submitted a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Games Workshop filed against them on the basis of lack of specificity.

Basically they're saying that Games Workshop needs to cite specific instances of trademark or copyright violations. This makes sense to me, since there isn't really any way to defend yourself against vague claims.

Wait, since when do you have to reference specific facts in a claim for copyright infringement? Notice pleading isn't enough anymore?

List your copyrights, assert that the other side is infringing, done.

GW don't own any copyrights in the areas they are alleging infringement.

Chapter House only make stuff that isn't made by GW. That is why there is a market for it.

Yeah. Hopefully if GW fails this; they won't lose much money. (if they did; first thing that would happen would be the poorest-selling races being squatted. Then probs more Space Marine stuff to recoup losses.)

GW don't own any copyrights in the areas they are alleging infringement.

Which do they own?

Kilkrazy wrote:If you want bits from Chapter House then buy them. The company will be glad of your custom.

I doubt they are going away soon, though.

Well I've just been eying their Tervigon conversion kit, Myeotic spore and magnetized combi-weapons, but I don't have the money right now. I think I'll look into these things soon though.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW don't own any copyrights in the areas they are alleging infringement.

Wait, that doesn't make any sense.

Have GW assigned away their copyrights? Are you suggesting that they're merely derivative works? Or that GW hasn't filed and received notice of a copyright relating to the works at issue?

A valid copyright registration (possibly application) is a requirement to bring suit. If GW hasn't even applied for copyright protection of their works, why doesn't CH dismiss for lack of SMJ?

A motion to dismiss is so standard that there really is nothing to discuss until we see a reply or a ruling.

It is not a legal requirement to file for copyright, it automatically exists in original art works.

Many of GW's supposed art works are not original, and therefore have no copyright.

A good example is the space marine shoulder pad design, which can be described as a blunt hemi-ogive with a raised bezel. It is a fairly basic solid geometric form and it is impossible to have copyright in it.

Similarly, the Rhino door is merely a regular octagon with sides of particular dimensions.

Ketara wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Not...really? The implication is that if Chapterhouse wins the case then third party conversion manufacturers will be able to actually flatout copy GW's established IP/artwork.

Yeah, I mean, they designed that Chaos star, they should have full exclusive rights to protect their IP!

Oh, hang on a minute....

Lol, indeed

I think people are going a bit OTT with this. Even if CH wins (and I have no idea whether or not this is likely) it's really, really not going to put any financial strain on GW. How many kids who walk into GW and pick up AoBR or WFB 8th are even aware of Chapterhouse's existence? I would hazard practically zero. Again it's the mistaken egotism, found throughout the internet, that this small dark corner comprises the whole or even a significant part of the wargaming community.

I realise I am one of that community, but I think it needs to be said. Even while 'Chapterhouse wins' or 'GW wins' threads are going for 400 pages, and results in at least one banning and someone feinting at their keyboard, 98% of casual hobbyists will still be saying, "chapterhouse, what??"

Wouldn't that be the same for all miniatures companies then? meaning GW can do new models and make them close to their originals from other companies?

I think people are going a bit OTT with this. Even if CH wins (and I have no idea whether or not this is likely) it's really, really not going to put any financial strain on GW. How many kids who walk into GW and pick up AoBR or WFB 8th are even aware of Chapterhouse's existence? I would hazard practically zero. Again it's the mistaken egotism, found throughout the internet, that this small dark corner comprises the whole or even a significant part of the wargaming community.

It depends; I doubt it would put any serious strain on them; but it may be enough to tip them to dump an army; which as a Witchhunters player; it concerns me.

Space Marines players dont need to worry though.

Exactly.

The still, small voice of sanity has spoken.

Kilkrazy wrote:
If that is the situation, once Chapter House got pro bono (i.e. free) representation from a respected firm with knowledge in the IP area, GW's chances of success declined significantly. One might like to consider why a respected firm would give pro bono defence to a defendant with a rotten case.

This. Either Chapterhouse has friends in high places, or there is some ulterior motive we missed.

I'm just concerned. I'm not anti-CH, some of their stuff is good. But I really only play 40k cause one army appeals to me; if that army gets squatted because of people making almost questionably similar stuff; then I've got no reason to play any wargaming (as no other game has an army similar enough to it). The aftermarkets stuff is iffy.

I'm just concerned really. I'd prefer something better to be worked out like this: CH are allowed to continue; but enter into a contract with GW; where a percentage of the profit from 40k-close stuff/kits goes to GW. Both companies profit and CH will get somewhat of a buffer in case of financial turmoil. Win/win.

Errr....No. I think you're taking the slippery slope approach, and its gone too far. Chapterhouse winning means Chapterhouse gets to continue doing what its doing, and the other 3rd party manufacturers get to continue offering their bits as well. Noone is going to produce an entire model range that will result in GW 'squatting' your favorite army. Realize that GW is a multi-million dollar company. They produce model kits on such a scale, that they pay only about 2 dollars to produce a kit that we pay 20 dollars for. They turn a massive profit on every box they sell (granted, a lot of their sales are through 3rd parties, so they make a bit less, but still). The bits/aftermarket manufacturers are for the most part using resin. They are small companies. They won't be able to compete with GW. The few that can, aren't going to do it on any scale that will seriously threaten GW's operation. If someone did manage to get something going that did threaten GW, then GW has a lot of ways to correct the problem, mainly via competing on price (they would have to drop prices first) or competing on quality. You're not going to find anyone except another large company that will be able to match GW in both those fields. Nobody is going to get big piggybacking on GW, so its a moot issue anyway.

Yeah. Hopefully if GW fails this; they won't lose much money. (if they did; first thing that would happen would be the poorest-selling races being squatted. Then probs more Space Marine stuff to recoup losses.)

Thats really not going to happen.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:
If that is the situation, once Chapter House got pro bono (i.e. free) representation from a respected firm with knowledge in the IP area, GW's chances of success declined significantly. One might like to consider why a respected firm would give pro bono defence to a defendant with a rotten case.

This. Either Chapterhouse has friends in high places, or there is some ulterior motive we missed.

Pro Bono work could be for tax reasons, to give junior partners experience, required by a legal organization, or " work for a friend" etc. Most likely, however, it has nothing to do with CH at all.

Thats really not going to happen.

Your most likely right. I'm just being careful. I remember my Lost and the Damned army.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Thats really not going to happen.

Your most likely right. I'm just being careful. I remember my Lost and the Damned army.

Who made Lost and the Damned? Who took it away?

Kilkrazy wrote:It is not a legal requirement to file for copyright, it automatically exists in original art works.

Copyright registration is a prerequisite for filing suit in the United States.

Also, it appears that last year the failure to preregister went from a subject matter issue to a 12(b)(6) issue. Link.

biccat wrote:

odinsgrandson wrote:Chapterhouse Studios submitted a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Games Workshop filed against them on the basis of lack of specificity.

Basically they're saying that Games Workshop needs to cite specific instances of trademark or copyright violations. This makes sense to me, since there isn't really any way to defend yourself against vague claims.

Wait, since when do you have to reference specific facts in a claim for copyright infringement? Notice pleading isn't enough anymore?

List your copyrights, assert that the other side is infringing, done.

I never did any federal work, let alone IP, so I don't know. I can't think of why you'd need more than the normal notice.

For non-lawyers, a federal pleading really only needs to let the other side know what kind of claim it is, what sort of damages they seek, and the basic grounds for the suit. Generally, saying "we want damages because you copied our protected work" would be enough.

Polonius wrote:For non-lawyers, a federal pleading really only needs to let the other side know what kind of claim it is, what sort of damages they seek, and the basic grounds for the suit. Generally, saying "we want damages because you copied our protected work" would be enough.

You also have to list your copyright registration number (or application number, depending on the circuit).

Polonius wrote:

biccat wrote:

odinsgrandson wrote:Chapterhouse Studios submitted a motion to dismiss the lawsuit that Games Workshop filed against them on the basis of lack of specificity.

Basically they're saying that Games Workshop needs to cite specific instances of trademark or copyright violations. This makes sense to me, since there isn't really any way to defend yourself against vague claims.

Wait, since when do you have to reference specific facts in a claim for copyright infringement? Notice pleading isn't enough anymore?

List your copyrights, assert that the other side is infringing, done.

I never did any federal work, let alone IP, so I don't know. I can't think of why you'd need more than the normal notice.

For non-lawyers, a federal pleading really only needs to let the other side know what kind of claim it is, what sort of damages they seek, and the basic grounds for the suit. Generally, saying "we want damages because you copied our protected work" would be enough.

This is nit-picky, but I'm bored in my remedies class right now, so I would also point out that Jurisdiction (why you're in Fed. court as opposed to state or an admin court) is also required.