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It is sort of interesting how mechanistic the cosmology of Caen/Urcaen is - the gods' obsession with saving souls (literally, in the financial sense) has a very practical reason: they need human/inhuman resources for their pursuits in the afterlife, and this was the very reason most of them created sentinent beings in the first place!

While it might seem obstinate (and for that I apologize) I have to point out that there is a marked difference between discussing RW religions and discussing RW cultural history and RW history of science.

A lot of it's source material Gods are very active in most fantasy novels which draw their sources from myths and legends.

 chromedog wrote:
PanO is the more religious of any of the Infinity factions.
They have knights of the church, who take active roles in pushing the church agenda (and it is the church who controls immortality by deciding which of the cubed gets re-sleeved into a new body.)

Haqq may provide the silk that makes cubing and human "immortality" possible, but it IS the church that controls who gets the net result.

*reads up on ALEPH and the immortality system Infintiy has in place*

All of a sudden I'm a lot more interested in the game... its often been suggested that AI will eventually be able to govern more efficiently than humans are capable of doing, and that digital backup for brains is something which is entirely possible, potentially within the space of this century.

ALEPH, your friendly neighbourhood jewish-hindu AI, is a really well-developed and cool Infinity background concept heavily influenced by Iain M. Banks Culture AIs (down to its military arm, the one you play on the tabletop, being Special Circumstances as that group might have looked before the Culture decided to outsource operations. Even the name is more or less the same).

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
ALEPH, your friendly neighbourhood jewish-hindu AI,

Kabbalah was greatly influenced by the time spent by the rabbis in Babylon centuries before, which is quite close to the Indus valley. It's kind of cool that the Aleph group has sort of a mystic AI based pantheism going on. Rather well done writing actually.

"Quite close" being a bit relative here, I guess:


It's just a 12 hour flight away! Might take a bit longer by donkey.

There is evidence of contact between the two early civilizations as early as the mid-Harappan period (primarily Indus to Mesopotamia at that point) but I don't think there are many (or any) serious scholars that draw any direct lines between the kabbalah and hinduism. Parallels? Certainly. It is almost inevitable that there would be. But the direct "Wow! The Kabbalah is like, totally like hinduism, man" is a product of later New Age Madonna-style syncretism. Which, of course, in the Infinity Universe, would be almost two hundred years in the past and could well be considered solid theology by then!

I think it began in settings where the existence of actual gods had been confirmed, and then it grew in popularity until it became a major wargaming trope.

The "religious zealot" archetype has themes and characteristics (as cliche as they are) that often fit easily into the OTT settings of most games (wargames/rpgs, etc.), and that also lend themselves visually to art and models.

Most things in wargaming (and gaming in general) as far as art and models is based upon a cliche/stereotype/common trope.


Tbh I like playing the faction that likes to burninate the heretic, wear robes and carry books, etc. Other people like anime girls with big boobs. What is the issue exactly?

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
He did seem quite into it, yes. The main problem was that nobody really argued against him beyond "their game, their world, their rules", which is definitely the case and a decent defense of their future history, but also sort of reinforces his point that Haqqislam is a CB fairytale-culture.

Haqqislam was founded by a group of Western-educated and -influenced Muslims who were tired of some of their more...enthusiastic...brothers' bs. In the context of the turbulent Infinity timeline it's credible that they could throw that much of the baby out with the bathwater in disgust, top it up with positive Disney stories and end up with the version of Islam they did. It's unclear how many of those who accepted the offer to join them in emigrating to Bourak actually converted to the official line or merely rolled their eyes and payed it lip service.

If is is a damnfool idealistic crusade to point out that cartoon lies-to-children history is, indeed, cartoon lies-to-children history, then I fear I am on a great many crusades . But misconceptions based on lack of knowledge should really be corrected - it is the only way to learn and go forward rather than stagnating intellectually. It is not a case of denying the intellectual history of the medieval muslim world; indeed, orientalists (as anyone studying the arab world were called back then) tore the myth of an exclusively dogmatic medieval and early modern muslim intellectual society down before medievalists started on tearing apart the similar myth about the western medieval world.

Infinity is all about the lies-to-children history. And the lies-to-adults history. Every human faction clothes itself in fraudulent cultural mythology for its own ends: Nippon with their bushido and ninjas, Caledonia with their woad and clan tartans, USAriadna with their tea party and taxation-without-representation belligerence...

 Construct wrote:
Haqqislam was founded by a group of Western-educated and -influenced Muslims who were tired of some of their more...enthusiastic...brothers' bs. In the context of the turbulent Infinity timeline it's credible that they could throw that much of the baby out with the bathwater in disgust, top it up with positive Disney stories and end up with the version of Islam they did. It's unclear how many of those who accepted the offer to join them in emigrating to Bourak actually converted to the official line or merely rolled their eyes and payed it lip service.

The only mention of any western influence in the books is that the PR manager was a successful advertising executive inn the west, but that is a detail. I'll detail below.

Infinity is all about the lies-to-children history. And the lies-to-adults history. Every human faction clothes itself in fraudulent cultural mythology for its own ends: Nippon with their bushido and ninjas, Caledonia with their woad and clan tartans, USAriadna with their tea party and taxation-without-representation belligerence...

Quite. Which has also been pointed out repeatedly, but isn't contested as strongly as the Haqqislam background is by as many people (if any?), as with the aformentioned mass-changing werewolves (or magical wormholes for that matter). There has been quite a lot of snickering from Scandinavians on the Infinity forums about the pretty obvious lack of mythological insight on the part of CB that made them choose the Nisse as a Svalarheima sniper, but nobody defends that choice. I don't have any problem with the many inconsistencies of the setting as such (pretty much unavoidable as it doesn't have the freedom a completely invented or obviously fantastic world has, but is meant to be a future history of our own). I have a problem with people (even after being corrected) harping on about how the Haqqislam background makes sense from a real world perspective and presents an accurate historical view that any real group of educated people could buy.

I like it.

It makes the story of 40k very enjoyable to me, the gothic tones of the Emperium worshiping sacrifice and death for the Emperor. Nothing is more fitting than this for the future of mankind, IMO.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
The only mention of any western influence in the books is that the PR manager was a successful advertising executive inn the west, but that is a detail. I'll detail below.

It was something one of creators was reported as saying at a con - that the initial followers of Farhad Khadivar were largely Westernised, and that it was only once Bourak was open for business that there was a massive influx of more-traditional Muslims - but I can't find the source and I may be misremembering the actual guist of what was said.

There has been quite a lot of snickering from Scandinavians on the Infinity forums about the pretty obvious lack of mythological insight on the part of CB that made them choose the Nisse as a Svalarheima sniper, but nobody defends that choice.

At least that can be hand-waved away by saying they didn't choose their own moniker - *pew* *pew* "Oh my god, they killed Kenny!" "Those bastards!" "Those shots came out of nowhere and then he just disappeared again like, like...some kind of elf. Hey, what's the Scandinavian for elf?" "Dunno, nisse I think." "Nisse it is." - it doesn't have anything on how silly the Croc-Men look to a New Zealander. The name, the appearance, the tattoos, the LOL faces, the traditional skin grafting?!??

I don't have any problem with the many inconsistencies of the setting as such (pretty much unavoidable as it doesn't have the freedom a completely invented or obviously fantastic world has, but is meant to be a future history of our own). I have a problem with people (even after being corrected) harping on about how the Haqqislam background makes sense from a real world perspective and presents an accurate historical view that any real group of educated people could buy.

To clarify, are you saying you have a problem with people believing the Muslims in the setting could come up with something like Haqqislam, or that you have a problem with people saying Haqqislam is similar to historical or existing forms of Islam?

I think the image one overall gets of CB's background writers is that they think they are a tad cleverer, multiculturally fluent and well read than they are in reality. Or that a lot of the Infinity universe is a pop culture in-joke, which would be hilarious considering how it is not really perceived as such by the majority of fans

 Construct wrote:
[To clarify, are you saying you have a problem with people believing the Muslims in the setting could come up with something like Haqqislam, or that you have a problem with people saying Haqqislam is similar to historical or existing forms of Islam?

The latter (and a few other quibbles not related to the first alternative).

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I think the image one overall gets of CB's background writers is that they think they are a tad cleverer, multiculturally fluent and well read than they are in reality. Or that a lot of the Infinity universe is a pop culture in-joke, which would be hilarious considering how it is not really perceived as such by the majority of fans

Oh, I wouldn't be that harsh. I think when they came up with the background for their RPG campaign-turned-tabletop game they just threw together whatever impressions of various cultures they had without checking that they corresponded to either reality or popular misconception - unless it really is a common myth in Spain that Maori practice skin grafting? - and even now they have to balance reality and popular misconception in a setting that runs on rule of cool.

The latter (and a few other quibbles not related to the first alternative).

That's reasonable.

It wasn't really intended to be harsh, but I can see it coming off that way. It is hardly unusual either...I cannot bring myself to play the vast majority of pre-modern historical wargames simply because the authors tend to design them around 19th century stereotypes rather than updated research on ancient and medieval warfare