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Hmm. Page 14 states a player's turn consists of "Movement, Shooting, and Assault." A game turn consists of two player turns (or possibly more). The Codex: Necron states "At the start of every Necron turn..." So the WBB rolls and results/affects of the rolls occur in the Movement phase of the Necron turn and thus abide by said rules.

The Codex further states a model that is repaired joins the closest unit of the same type. If said unit is in CC, the newly joined model is also now in CC but doesn't gain a charging bonus.

If the repaired Lord is a unit, and by definition the closest unit, it stands up not in CC since it is no longer locked in CC. Further, the rules of the Movement phase restrict the Lord such is must not be placed within 1" of an enemy model.

But it's not the movement phase, it's the nebulous time period known as 'the start of the turn.' It occurs in the same kind undefined time zone as pre-game moves.

Posted By Bookwrack on 03/21/2006 12:08 AM
But it's not the movement phase, it's the nebulous time period known as 'the start of the turn.' It occurs in the same kind undefined time zone as pre-game moves.

I think this deduction is a bit of a stretch......The beginning of the necron players turn is ALSO the start of his movement phase.

The following was suggested by a fellow gamer who is too lasy to post, so I post on his behalf ......

Consider forced dis-embarkation during opponents shooting phase. Any troops forced to dis-embark and finding themselves within 1" of enemy model count as destroyed. This is a valid tactic used in many games. Particularly any horde type armies (Tyranid, Ork etc...) Crowd your unit to cover all the exit hatches with lots of models and the unit inside is destroyed.

This is occuring during the shooting phase......

So, from this we should deduce that the only time you can move within 1" of an enemy model is during an assault. Which IS RAW.....and any other time you are forced to move within 1" of enemy model, you count as destroyed. This is also RAW.

There are exclusions - Drop Pods, Monolith.
BUT these are documented exclusions.

Yak and co are always saying the rules are permissive. Nowhere in the Necron Codex will you find any reference to a lord surviving a unit "camping" on his debris.

Actually, it's not much of a stretch.  You have events that occur in non-phases such as pregames moves that occur between Deployment and the start of the game.  Nowhere in the BGB is the movement phase equated with the start of the player's turn, so therefore the restriction that the start of the player's turn is simaltanous with the start of the movement phase does not apply.  The start of the turn takes place before the movement phase, therefore the one inch rule for movement is not in effect (compounded with the observation that standing up from WBB is not movement).

Where it gets tricky, is that the Codex allows models that make their WBB roll to join a unit in close combat, expressely allowing the violation of the 1" rule. The Lord however, is a unit unto himself, and can stand back up without there being another unit close by.  So, Necrons that return can immediately join close combat, but what about entire units?

There is nothing tricky about it actually, the models that make their WBB roll whilst their unit is in CC are placed anywhere in BtB with an enemy model. There is no contention there at all. It is strictly outlined with the only stipulation that the said unit is in CC, that is the crucial part of the equation....IN CC. As the lord is an IC he is a unit unto himself, and when he dies he has no unit to keep him IN CC. As such when he reses he cant claim to be in CC with a unit and therefor cannot violate the 1"rule. As stated in the necron codex, he stands up where he was. Now if that space is occupied or within 1" of an enemy model then logic (i know logic and 40k dont mix) applies. Anytime a model is forced to be, not neccesarily move, within 1" of an enemy model it is destroyed (deep strike, disembarkation) . Now there are some exceptions to the rule as outlined by GavDorro....but these are exceptions to the rule. There is no such exception in the Necron codex for the lord, or WBB rolls in general, they do however give an exception to the Monolith.

What in the world does the turn sequence have to do with the Necron WBB roll? Come on guys that is a tad ridiculous.

The Lord is a unit unto itself.

The WBB roll makes no reference to "disembarkation".

The WBB roll makes no mention of the 1" rule.

The WBB roll states Necrons can be placed into close combat.

The Necron Lord needs no like model within 6" in order to self repair.

The WBB roll is done before movement as then the models tend to be able to move afterward therefore the WBB effect of "standing up" does not count as movement therefore the 1" rule again would NOT apply to the WBB roll.



Again I ask what the problem is? The Necron stands up where he fell, nothing in the rule states otherwise. Permissive gentlemen, permissive.

<div class="NTForums_Quote">Posted By DaIronGob on 03/21/2006 7:41 AM<br>I ask what the problem is? The Necron stands up where he fell, nothing in the rule states otherwise. Permissive gentlemen, permissive.</div><br><br>


You keep saying that like it's helping......


Maybe an example will help:

A unit of 16 Warriors joined by a Necron Lord is assaulted by a unit of 8 Eldar Scorpions. The Lord is in the front of the Necron unit thus is positioned between the Warriors and the Scorpions.

As a result of the assault the Lord is damaged, and thus battlefield debris. The Necrons make their LD test, thus the two units pile in. On the subscequent Necron turn, the Lord makes his WBB roll, where does he go? He can't stand up where he fell since there is an assault going on. He doesn't join the Warrior unit since it's been established the Lord is a seperate unit thus his closest like unit. He does go somewhere since the RAW state he stands up. Now, where does he stand up?

You are right DaIronGob, the rules are permissive. Point out please in the rules where it states that a necron model may arbtirarely be placed in CC just because it happens to be within 1" of an enemy model.

The rule states that a unit with downed necrons that is STILL IN CC can place those models who made their WBB in BtB with a enemy model from the CC. No where in the codex does it allow for a model to stand and start a CC, it only allows for joining a CC that is already in progress. So by the PRERMISSIVE rules that is your only option. If you are not in CC or the unit you are with is not in CC when the WBB is made then you cannot claim the beneifts of that rule.

As the lord is a unit unto itself, it has not unit to remain in CC and as such cannot claim the benefits of that rule. No where in the codex does it allow for the lord to be placed in CC because when it dies and raises itself, it becomes a unit unto itself. He needs to be placed on the table where he died and if that space is ocucupied by an enemy model, or several are camped on his remains, then i dont see the drama in him bein destroyed. Anyother interpretation would be breaching the RAW.

I'm with you DaIronGob, the precedent is there for the Lord to be able to stand up and join CC.

<div class="NTForums_Quote">Posted By flyins on 03/21/2006 4:17 PM<br>I'm with you DaIronGob, the precedent is there for the Lord to be able to stand up and join CC. </div><br><br>


How can you have the Lord, an independent unit, join another unit in combat? The Lord is no longer in CC with the assaulting Scorpions. How can be be placed into CC with the Scorpions? What precedence is there for that?

Augment the example a touch: Let's say the Lord, by himself, was assaulted and damaged. The Scorpions make a 1" sweeping advance over where the damaged Lord is. Lord makes his WBB roll. Now where do you place the Lord?

Iron Gob

When I made reference to disembarkation, deep strike.....I was merely trying to point out that the turn phase you are in is irrelevant. The 1" rule applies regardless. Some posts have made reference to it being "pre movement" and this apparently, somehow precludes us from obeying RAW?

So, on this we agree. It has nothing to do with movement phase, shooting phase or any other pre move phase you want to come up with.....

You keep saying your interpretation is permissive. BUT you have not backed up your interpretation with page numbers or FAQ's. And I believe this is because you cannot.....

"Great Avatar" and "Evil Git" have both made very conclusive arguments with good examples and yet you still seem to be having trouble grasping it.

I dont think it is really that difficult either. But I am going to remain thouroughly unconvinced that your interpretation is correct.

Sorry, we are obviously going to all have to agree to disagree.

Oy vay.

Page: 13 Necron Dex.

"We'll Be Back Column".

-P1; Lords do not have to have another model within 6 inches. So you can roll to get the lord back up regardless of any other model.

-P2; If the nearest unit is in combat then the repaired necron may be placed into combat with ANY of it's opponents as long as it maintains coherency.

-C1; The lord is a 'unit' in itself and as such if it stands up within a combat or underneath the opponent that knocked it down then it can get up and be placed in contact with any opponent in that combat.


When I say permissive it is in direct relation to the claim that a Necron getting up that is within the 1" of an enemy is 'lost' as per deepstriking and disembarkation rules. There is nothing in the WBB rule that states the Necron is destroyed if it is forced to do this. That is what I say by "permissive".

Feel free to punch that full of holes, it wouldn't be a discussion if you didn't.

I don?t think you can reach your conclusion for your premises. P1 is not relevant to your conclusion. P2 is only partially correct. The wording for P2 should be ?If the nearest unit of the same type is in ?.? This change invalidates your conclusion.

Try this:

P1. The player?s turn is composed of three phases: Movement; Shooting, and Assaulting. (BGB page 14)
P2. WBB rolls are made at the beginning of the Necron player?s turn. (Codex: Necron page 13)
C1. WBB rolls occur during the Movement phase.

P3. The damaged Lord making his WBB roll stands up. (Codex: Necron page 13)
P4. A repaired Lord is an independent unit and thus the closest unit of the same type. (BGB page 50)
P5. No model may be placed such it touches an enemy model during the Movement phase. (BGB page 15)
C2. The repaired Lord stands up as close to the spot he was damaged making sure not to touch any enemy models.

Avatar

Have to say, I agree with all points you make except for C2. I dont believe there is any precedent to move the lord anywhere. The codex does not make any reference to this.

The 4th ed rule book DOES make reference to any model forced within 1" of an enemy as counting as destroyed. I have seen ZERO arguments on this forum that would allow this rule to be broken.

Iron gob is failing to grasp that the lord is an independent character and therefore cannot join a unit when standing back up. (Unless you want to try and sneak a unit of Necron Lords onto the table?) He is counted as battle debris until WBB. He gets back up in the same spot he laid down, if there is no room, he go bye bye.....Simple.

GavDorro said "He gets back up in the same spot he laid down, if there is no room, he go bye bye.....Simple."

Gav, there are no rules to support your claim. The Codex: Necron only states the repaired Lord "stands up". There is no indication that it HAS to be where he laid down. Further, the WBB rule allows other models to be place anywhere on the table as long as they maintain unit coherence with the nearest unit.

Further, there is nothing in the Movement rules that states a model ending it's movement phase within in 1" of an enemy model is destroyed. The rule explicitly forbids such movement.

Anyone else read the article about using common sense at the beginning of the latest WD?

Hey Avatar

I do understand what you are trying to say.

BUT while the codex does not specifically state the lord stands up in the exact spot. The problem hinges around him being an independent character. He can no longer claim to be part of a unit in HTH (as written previously by EvilGit). So he cannot be moved with any unit he may have been attached to when he was taken down.

So, you would really have to ask yourself - "is moving the lord permissive?" The answer is quite plainly, no.

>Posted By flyins on 03/23/2006 4:05 PM
>Anyone else read the article about using common sense at the beginning of >the latest WD?

I know it by reputation, and it seems to just prove the cliche, "Common sense is rarely either common, or sensible."

Posted By GavDorro on 03/23/2006 7:41 PM
So, you would really have to ask yourself - "is moving the lord permissive?" The answer is quite plainly, no.




Hmmm. Let's see, the Necron player is permitted to stand the Lord up if the WBB roll is made. There is no apparent restriction on where he is permitted to be placed beyond the Lord cannot be placed in contact with an enemy model. Common sense says place the Lord as near the spot he went down without touching an enemy model.

All is _permissive_ by the RAW. Show me otherwise....

Avatar

Following your conclusion on there being no limitation on placement. The Necron player could argue that his lord stands up 2 feet away from where he went down? As you say, there is no written restriction.

So, I believe we are at an impasse? Niether can really proove the other incorrect?

I guess Necron players everywhere would argue that they would never place their lord in such a position to start with? Although I must admit, this very situation happened to me about a month ago (against my son). Necron versus Tau. Destroyer lord goes up against some Kroot after taking a lot of fire, with only 1 wound left, he went down under sheer weight of numbers. Our local game club rules guru (every club has one, dont they?) ruled that his subsequent proximity would not allow him to WBB.

Think about it from a "fluff" point of view (I hate that term). You would think the unit would be watching the lords debris for any sign of movement and then jumping up and down on any bits trying to reknit..... I looked at it as a viable way of taking down a unit that, after all, can soak up more than it's fair share of incoming, only to get back up with all wounds intact!

Damn it's a hard unit and many people on this thread seemed determined to make it that much harder!

GavDorro:
>>Following your conclusion on there being no limitation on placement. The Necron player could argue that his lord stands up 2 feet away from where he went down? As you say, there is no written restriction.

Yep. I understand that that ?could? be argued. I?ve never seen it argued, but yes, I?ll concede that it could happen.


>>So, I believe we are at an impasse? Niether can really proove the other incorrect?

No, not really. You haven?t provided and proof to support your claim the Lord _doesn?t_ get back up. You?ve provided only anecdotal support for your claim but no RAW.

>>I guess Necron players everywhere would argue that they would never place their lord in such a position to start with? Although I must admit, this very situation happened to me about a month ago (against my son). Necron versus Tau. Destroyer lord goes up against some Kroot after taking a lot of fire, with only 1 wound left, he went down under sheer weight of numbers. Our local game club rules guru (every club has one, dont they?) ruled that his subsequent proximity would not allow him to WBB.

Case in point. Funny, the gurus at my club say the Lord gets back up similar to the Drop Pod rules since the Lord does stand up AND cannot be placed in contact of an enemy model. What did your guru base his assertion on? Did he consider the fact the Lord does in fact stand up if it makes its WBB roll?

>>Think about it from a "fluff" point of view (I hate that term). You would think the unit would be watching the lords debris for any sign of movement and then jumping up and down on any bits trying to reknit..... I looked at it as a viable way of taking down a unit that, after all, can soak up more than it's fair share of incoming, only to get back up with all wounds intact!

Or, you could look at it that they completely ignore the thing they just thought they destroyed only to be ?pleasantly? surprised. I look at it as a unit that is designed to be resilient; the Lord is designed to be extremely tough.

>>Damn it's a hard unit and many people on this thread seemed determined to make it that much harder!

No. People are trying to understand the rules so they can play accordingly. Just simply dismissing part of the rules to make it ?easier to play? doesn?t make sense. Just show where in the rules the Lord doesn?t get up. It?s really THAT simple.

Ok Avatar

Sorry, this discussion is getting a little dragged out isn't it?

For proof of claim. Consider the following example.....

The monolith teleports a group of necrons out of combat to emerge from the portal. Including several that were damaged in battle and did not get back up. Under the RAW the unit emerges from the portal and any failed WBB are re-rolled.

BUT the portal has a unit of a dozen Genestealers standing in front of it. There is no room for all the necrons to deploy without being within 1" of an enemy model....So, what happens to them? Any that are within 1" of a genestealer counts as destroyed. This includes any that may have made their second WBB roll.....

Here is a valid example of a WBB failing because of 1" proximity to enemy model.

Is it too much of a stretch to believe that this woull also apply to a lord trying to WBB with a unit on top of his debris?

GavDorro,

The rules state that no unit cane MOVE to within 1" of another unit. The Lord is not moving, he's getting up form WBB.

You thought that DaIronGob simplified things.....

From my understanding of everything that has been said so far...

Lord goes down in CC, enemy consolidates ONTOP of the Lords Debris. Lord makes its WBB Roll and stands up. The rules state that no model may MOVE to within 1" of an enemy model during the movement phase. ALL the suppositions and comparisons so far have been using MOVEMENT related rules and trying to relate them to the Lord STANDING UP and not actually MOVING.

(To prove my point on my last sentence... Disembarkation from a vehicle - wrecked or otherwise = MOVEMENT. Deepstriking/Veil of Darkness'ing/Monolith'ing = MOVEMENT. Forced movement = MOVEMENT. And so on and so forth).

Back to the Lord STANDING UP. He cannot stand up within 1" of an enemy model (where is this rule by the way?). He cannot stand up in B2B with an enemy model (this has been explained - to death I might add). Wouldn't the SIMPLEST way to work this out be....

"The Lord passes his WBB Roll. The Stands up. IF the Lord is within 1" of an enemy model (or is in B2B) then move the lord so that it is not within 1" or B2B, UP TO A MAXIMUM DISTANCE EQUAL TO NOT MORE THAN HIS BASE MOVEMENT!

Example: Nec Lord dies in CC. Enemy crowds the remains. Lord passes WBB Roll. Lord stands up but is within 1" or B2B of an enemy unit. Thus Lord is 'forced' to move up to 6" so as not to be within 1"/B2B of an enemy model. If this movement is impossible (very stretched out unit/multiple close units/etc, etc.) then the Nec Lord is considered to be destroyed.

Wouldn't that work? Would that be simple enough for everyone, or is this idea breaking some unwritten gamebreaking rule?

DF

 

 

Well I like that idea DarkFather. But seeing as how the WBB has become a very ambiguous rule I would say that it wouldn't work.

See the WBB rule allows for a necron to automatically join coherency with the closest unit with a like model, no range for this is defined, though it is assumed that there would be a similar unit within 6" that isn't always the case.

Limiting the Lord to only his base movement wouldn't necessarily work in this situation. I would just allow the lord to stand up

a: where he fell, making him start in combat

b: move him out side of the enemy models by 1".

But then again, nothing in rules support either of those claims.

Hello Darkfather

Long time no see.

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist adding to the discussion !

There has been quite a bit about this "pre movement phase" somehow working with a different set of rules to the normal turn sequence. As has been pointed out in numerous posts, the game turn consists of 3 phases. the codex states "WBB taken at start of necron turn?" So, this would also mean it is the start of the movement phase? So, the WBB is part of the movement phase also? I dont think the argument is really relevent anyway. I merely used these other examples to show that there a few different situations where being within 1" destroys the model.....I dont believe there is sufficient evidence to show that WBB is an exception to this precedent?

However, it is obviously too open to interpretation. And NOT having any rule DIRECTLY related to this WBB situation makes it a little difficult to deal with....(as we have seen here). The main problem with the argument FOR the necron player, is the lords independent stature. It makes it impossible for him to join a unit in combat once he has been taken down. This as pointed out by Evil Git and myself previously....

Your solution does have SOME merit. Dont think I am dismissing it outright...., (Iron Gob & Avatar included)

I would be interested to hear if anyone has come across this situation in a tourny. AND how was it ruled?

The fact that I myself have come across this situation in a game would suggest the likleyhood of it coming up again is distinctly possible?

Anyway, see you at the club. (still building neccie warriors? BORED out of brain after the first 20 ?)

Posted By GavDorro on 03/29/2006 12:33 AM
Hello Darkfather

Long time no see.

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist adding to the discussion !

True, true...

There has been quite a bit about this "pre movement phase" somehow working with a different set of rules to the normal turn sequence. As has been pointed out in numerous posts, the game turn consists of 3 phases. the codex states "WBB taken at start of necron turn?" So, this would also mean it is the start of the movement phase? So, the WBB is part of the movement phase also? I dont think the argument is really relevent anyway. I merely used these other examples to show that there a few different situations where being within 1" destroys the model.....I dont believe there is sufficient evidence to show that WBB is an exception to this precedent?

However, it is obviously too open to interpretation. And NOT having any rule DIRECTLY related to this WBB situation makes it a little difficult to deal with....(as we have seen here). The main problem with the argument FOR the necron player, is the lords independent stature. It makes it impossible for him to join a unit in combat once he has been taken down. This as pointed out by Evil Git and myself previously....

Your solution does have SOME merit. Dont think I am dismissing it outright...., (Iron Gob & Avatar included)

I would be interested to hear if anyone has come across this situation in a tourny. AND how was it ruled?

The fact that I myself have come across this situation in a game would suggest the likleyhood of it coming up again is distinctly possible?

I too would like to hear of other instances of this happening. Somehow (with the abundance of games I manage play) I haven't come across this happening as yet?!?!

Anyway, see you at the club. (still building neccie warriors? BORED out of brain after the first 20 ?)

HAHAHA... yes actually... all built now. 40 Neccie Warriors waiting to be based/undercoated.... and then sigh... painted and lacquered. Now I get to get back to my BattleFortress for the boyz... Or should I get the 2nd Monolith done, or the other 4 Warbikes, or the other Trukkboyz trukk, or .... too many minis, too little time...

DF