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Well, that would be true. One of my employees (under 21) needs to maintain gainful employment in order to have vistitation with her daughter (CPS took her away). If she quits, good luck with your daughter. Now, I'm definately NOT holding that over her, but it should at least be on her mind.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Now, don't get me wrong, I think felons SHOULD have a second chance and I'm not going to discriminate against the elderly, but I do have to consider if they can physically handle the job and the safety of my employees. My crew is currently in a state where I need to schedule half the crew (good employees) to basically babysit the sub-par ones during any given shift. Smokers almost have me over a barrel right now.

There is a federally funded bond program that covers you from a convict hire stealing or whatever for (I think) 6 months. My understanding is that it is pretty easy to get a bond through the program.

https://nicic.gov/federal-bonding-program-us-department-labor-initiative

I dunno, it seems to me you just need some clear, fair and well defined rules. Make sure they're clear and well defined before you try and implement them, get a few competent folk to review them before you take them to your employees because you don't want to appear like you're moving the goal posts.

You should be allowing regular breaks anyway and people should be doing their smoking in that break period, a 5 hour shift should probably be broken up by a short break.

I dunno what the fair work rules are over there, but increasing the hourly rate and making breaks unpaid might be an option? That way aren't paying them less, but it's clear that employees are expected to work X hours to get Y dollars.

It also depends what the work is, as that determines what is the impact of a break.

Ideally you want to foster a good work ethic, my boss doesn't really care when we take our breaks or how long they are because he trusts us to avoid taking breaks at inopportune times, make sure we get the work done and work the appropriate number of hours in a shift.

Or just get one competent employment lawyer to do the whole thing.

Free legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Or just get one competent employment lawyer to do the whole thing.

Free legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

I wasn't really looking for legal advice, more of a moral/social standard one.

Smoking is a habit/addiction. If it interferes with their employment, that's on the employee to sort out. No special consideration should be allowed. A working employee in the US is normally an adult, time to act like one.

PS: I would definitely add a statement during hiring/employment that clearly lays out the state laws regarding smoking, and your stance on vaping/smoking, etc. Have a solid piece of paper that states your position, that they sign during the application/hiring process.

A five hour shift isn't long, one smoke before, one on lunch break and one after work should be fine. On an eight hour shift an extra coffee/smoke break seems fair.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Just for a little clarification, my state's anti-smoking laws came out right before the vaping craze hit. It was determined the laws, in general, don't apply to vaping. So, technically, you can still vape indoors, just not in a food prep area. We have a smoking area outdoors, not that it's all that great.

And yes, I am liable for any employee or customer that smokes in my business, and the fine is rather hefty.


I think the thing that bothers me is that smoker/vapers don't understand how annoying their habit is. I have an employee (non smoker) that gets a ton of crap from other employees for being technically late habitually. If you schedule him at 11, you can set your clock to him entering the store at 11:03. This really doesn't bother me as when he gets there he is in "game-on" mode. He jumps in, puts his nose to the grindstone, and busts butt. Many of the people that complain about him will show up 5 minutes early, stroll about for 5 minutes, chit-chat for a while, and 20 minutes into a shift go for a smoke. The irony is lost on them.

Cursive: as a swiss, i'd buy him a clock and remind him that 11 is 11 and not 11:03 but then again i am stereotypical as can get. yadda yadda angry wierd mountain peasant son demands things to be on time, further confused swiss german ramblings alles gaht de bach drab...

Jokes aside:
.
underlined: Here's the crux , that has less to do with irony and more to do with smoking/ vaping beeing an addiction nothing more nothing less.
These people will defend their habit and not see their fault because to them it does not seem like one. Implementing stricter rules and, especially important, enforcing them should do wonders. Not to say that you shall limit smoking break time, etc. but sanctioning those that just had to vape indoors should do the trick.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Or just get one competent employment lawyer to do the whole thing.

Free legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

Yes. For example, did you know that while employers are not legally required to offer break times, but if they do offer them, it's a federal requirement that they be paid for breaks up to 20 minutes? Several people suggested unpaid break times. And why wouldn't they? The overwhelming majority of posters here aren't from OP's state, a likely majority of the posters probably aren't even from OP's country, and probably 100% of them (while good intentioned) are not qualified to answer the questions OP is asking. I'm sure not!

What the OP is asking for is setting a clear workplace policy with legal consequences if it runs afoul of either Iowa or federal law.

This really is a question for a lawyer. If I owned a business and didn't want to potentially get sued, I'd pay one for an hour or two of Q&A. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of (probably really expensive) cure and all that.

When I was on active duty, troopers who smoked would try to get away with extended smoke breaks. You couldn't smoke on/near the tanks, so they would walk out behind the motor pool and BS. This left the non-smokers to do more work than the smokers.

I actually had a kid start smoking, and when I asked him why, it was so he could take smoke breaks.

Part of breaking this chain (in my specific case) was when one of the guys (usually a junior NCO ) would take a smoke break (first guy in my unit to take one at that time) my senior NCO or myself would have EVERYONE stop working until the smoke breaks were done. Of course, we stayed until the day's tasks were done. When the NCOs taking extensive smoke breaks realized we would be working until 1900 instead of releasing at 1700 like other units, they decided since we were working until task accomplishment, not to time, it just may be best to curb the smoke breaks.

I know there is no way you could do that in the civilian world, especially not in a restaurant or other service related industry.

My 2 cents, as someone who was a smoker, and who has worked in restaurants.

First off, before I come away as too draconian - I think SOME time for smokers is allowed. Waiting/kitchen work is stressful, you're being paid gak, the customers are all awful, no one tips, people who do tip throw you a handful of sticky coins and then smirk up at you in expectation of a royal grovelling on your part for their being so generous and kind to bless your wretched existence with a pittance extra, the cooks are all aspiring Gordon Ramseys - minus the charm, management hasn't a clue and would probably look at Calligula's campaign against the sea as a magnificent strategic success, if only they could fething read, and all your colleagues are actual bottom-of-the-barrel mouthbreathers who can't even make a cup of fething coffee.

That 15 minute break? Heaven.

In the UK (I'm probably wrong, my bosses were awful about breaks), we're usually allowed 2 15 minute breaks a day extra for smoking. They are usually regarded as gifts, and most people don't take them all at once, so your staff doesn't suddenly disappear. There are also unwritten rules about not suddenly taking a ciggy break just as everything is about to get really busy.

Here's where I'll get strict.

Where I worked, just before I packed in being a waiter altogether? These unspoken codes were broken flagrantly to pretty extreme degrees. On my last day (double shift, 16 hours (boiled over to 18 because cleaning knocked off early and they literally wouldn't bus us back to the train station until we cleaned the kitchens)) I got a grand total of a SINGLE hour break (illegal). Why? Because we were undermanned on the restaurant floor. Why? Because 2/3 of the staff were quietly mutinying. We'd had an awful week, and all the customers were exceptionally bad, the kitchen was running out of ingredients, it was super hot and there was no air con, and feth it. When you're 16 and being paid like £5 an hour, and the boss is too dumb to notice, who cares if you take a 4 hour cigarette break?
In this situation, employees were abusing their entitlement to a smoke break. Not intentionally (god, I wouldn't have minded at the time if it was a political thing, but it was raw selfishness), but in doing so, they were hurting the business, the management, and getting something back by taking those insane smoke breaks (the 4 hour thing isn't a lie and honestly I nearly hit the kid who said he had done it).

While not as extreme, it seems like you're on the recieving end of something not too far removed. As mentioned by other posters, I'd check the local laws, and also what's in the contracts you've given your workforce. But if you have the opportunity, make it absolutely clear. Establish time limits and parameters. No more than X people at once, Not at X o'clock. If someone needs more than half an hour in addition to their lunch break to fight a particularly nasty nicotine addiction, they should talk to you personally, and you can arrange for something like nicotine patches perhaps. Any smoke breaks taken are a concession to accommodate the needs of the employee. Anyone who abuses that should be penalized - I'd suggest docking pay? Might be hard to keep track of, though, but I'd suggest you have anyone going on a smoke break to come to you first, and then once they've finished, provided your workforce is small enough. I know you said you've got a shortage of workers, but if you let them mess you around with this, it'll only get worse. Would you tolerate a non-smoker just heading out for a while to pace around outside or something?

It might also be worth assessing where your smokers have to smoke. You say legally they have to be a certain distance. Impress upon them that they HAVE to be this far away, but maybe have something to make that distance more comfortable in the harsh weather, like a couple of umbrellas, or handwarmers or something (idk, I'm kinda drunk)

As for vaping indoors, however. I'd say be absolutely authoritarian. It's unhygenic, it's disrespectful to the customers, to their colleagues, and if it's in a storeroom, potentially dangerous. Stamp it out HARD. If ANY of your clientele knew about it, it would cost you money. I'd 100% leave. And never come back. If you catch them in the act? I think it isn't unreasonable that they lose their job on the spot. Again, I know you say you're short staffed, but I knew this one guy who works in construction. Every job he's ever had, he's quit, or been fired from, because they won't let him smoke weed at work. He's not planning on changing. He works for drug money, a bit of rent, and food, then smokes weed as much as he can. And he treats it like a right. He thinks it's outrageous that he isn't entitled to smoke pot at work. He's always surprised that employers take issue with it. Dude is nearly 30. IMAGINE how many jobs he's been through. Some people just don't grasp what it is to have a job and obligations. They'll keep screwing up. Your vapers sound like they have that same sense of entitlement.
I'd maybe fire a warning shot about this, but 0 tolerance is the way to go with anyone smoking on the premises, regardless of how they're doing it.
Lastly, have you thought about reducing the overall number of staff, but increasing what you pay? Surely it'll leave everyone with a bigger workload, but if nothing else, if your available employees are truly as no-hoper as you describe them, you can at least be a bit choosier. Some of them are probably actually alright, and are just in a bit of a mess with their lives. A bit of extra cash, married to a bit more responsibility, a more significant financial loss if they screw up, might actually go a long way, rather than some measly min-wage job they can get at any restaurant in town.

Since I quit smoking, I've had 3 jobs that were extremely tight on how much you could smoke, and the last 2 were completely 0-tolerance. If I tried to take a smoke break, I'd be out. Being a non-smoker has helped me in all sorts of ways, and I'm glad I have the job that I do, and don't miss smoking (much (most days(sometimes))). In my line of work in Japan or Korea, if you tried to take a ciggy break like people did in restaurants in the UK when I worked in them, they'd be told to not come back in after. Don't get mugged off. You're the leadership in this situation.

I just don't see at all why smokers should get more breaks than non-smokers. Everyone should have the same reasonable entitlement to a break.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Odd question here, but how long does it take the "average" person to poop? In general I poop once per day, half the time that's at work. It takes about 8 to 10 minutes.

One Hearthstone Game / Phone Game length of time

 cuda1179 wrote:

nareik wrote:
You say you are unhappy with these smokers behaviour, and they say they'll walk if made to do the work their actually paid for. Seems them walking out would be an absolute win for you? ... assuming none of them are irreplaceable. Just make sure you go about it legitimately.

Also make sure you show sympathy to the smokers who indulge their habbit in an uninterruptive way. I tell you now, some of the 'responsible' smokers will have disdain for the 'irresponsible' ones.

The problem with replacing my smokers is that I'm all ready having problems getting employees, and so is everyone else in the community. The percentage of high school kids that want to be employed has dropped like a rock in the last 10 years. The average applicant is some combination of half-stupid, functional drug abuser, felon, been fired from 6 jobs in the last year, or 60 year-old trying to put in enough working ours to collect full Social Security. Now, don't get me wrong, I think felons SHOULD have a second chance and I'm not going to discriminate against the elderly, but I do have to consider if they can physically handle the job and the safety of my employees. My crew is currently in a state where I need to schedule half the crew (good employees) to basically babysit the sub-par ones during any given shift. Smokers almost have me over a barrel right now.


AND to add another wrinkle to this debacle, the legal smoking/vaping age was just raised to 21. By law I can not allow anyone under the legal smoking age to have a smoke break, smoke on my property, or smoke while on the clock. This means that a few of my 18-19 year old employees will be banned from smoking during any part of their shift, and I'll have to enforce it.

Welcome to ten years of (granted, slow) economic growth. You're paying at or near minimum wage, I assume? Wal-Mart pays more. Good people follow the money, leaving you with the dregs who can't cut it at Wal-Mart... which is a LESS difficult job than working restaurants.

You may have to bite the bullet and raise wages to get some of those people back from Wal-Mart. Either that or start budgeting money to pay fines on having underage smokers and people smoking around food...

 Vulcan wrote:
[
Welcome to ten years of (granted, slow) economic growth. You're paying at or near minimum wage, I assume? Wal-Mart pays more. Good people follow the money, leaving you with the dregs who can't cut it at Wal-Mart... which is a LESS difficult job than working restaurants.

You may have to bite the bullet and raise wages to get some of those people back from Wal-Mart. Either that or start budgeting money to pay fines on having underage smokers and people smoking around food...

Minimum wage here is $7.35 per hour for non-tipped employees and $4.35 for tipped employees. Our average kitchen staff is paid $11, and our waitresses (if unexperienced) start at $7.50, but also average about $6 per hour in tips.

BrianDavion wrote:
.. they're smoking in a returant? ewwwwwww that's disgusting.

Yeah this alone is a hot nope.

should be an immediate termination if found smoking or vaping in the restaurant.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:
[
Welcome to ten years of (granted, slow) economic growth. You're paying at or near minimum wage, I assume? Wal-Mart pays more. Good people follow the money, leaving you with the dregs who can't cut it at Wal-Mart... which is a LESS difficult job than working restaurants.

You may have to bite the bullet and raise wages to get some of those people back from Wal-Mart. Either that or start budgeting money to pay fines on having underage smokers and people smoking around food...

Minimum wage here is $7.35 per hour for non-tipped employees and $4.35 for tipped employees. Our average kitchen staff is paid $11, and our waitresses (if unexperienced) start at $7.50, but also average about $6 per hour in tips.

Well, you're going to have to do SOMETHING. You can't let these kids break the law in your restaurant; it really is that simple. If it means shutting down for a month while you clean out the dross and hire new people, better that than having the HEALTH DEPARTMENT shut you down.

Seriously, hire a lawyer.

You're asking a legal question and almost every response you've gotten is in fact legal advice - whether it looks like it or not - and I too would wager that not a single person here is qualified to give it.

I have a LL.B Law and more than ten years experience in the industry and I am nowhere near qualified to answer it.

Vaping is better for your employees than smoking.... institute a policy on where they cant vape and where they cant (ie around customers ...front of house).

Be reasonable regardless of law and they will reciprocate.

 Necro wrote:
Vaping is better for your employees than smoking.... institute a policy on where they cant vape and where they cant (ie around customers ...front of house).

Be reasonable regardless of law and they will reciprocate.

That is massively debatable, especially given the rash of deaths tied to vaping. People are trading one bad way of killing yourself for another bad way of killing yourself.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Necro wrote:
Vaping is better for your employees than smoking.... institute a policy on where they cant vape and where they cant (ie around customers ...front of house).

Be reasonable regardless of law and they will reciprocate.

That is massively debatable, especially given the rash of deaths tied to vaping. People are trading one bad way of killing yourself for another bad way of killing yourself.

Aye. Nobody has ever died from smoking cigarettes for just a couple years, unlike Vaping. That stuff at least takes decades to kill you. And so does vaping, with the bonus danger that it might kill you much much quicker.

Vaping is at least as dangerous as cigarettes. Possibly moreso given the amount of unexpected deaths that have been resulting. Huffing boiling smoke and other chemicals into your lungs is NEVER going to be a positive thing for your lungs. It might not be as offensive to consume as a cigarette, but that doesn't mean its better.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Seriously, hire a lawyer.

You're asking a legal question and almost every response you've gotten is in fact legal advice - whether it looks like it or not - and I too would wager that not a single person here is qualified to give it.

I have a LL.B Law and more than ten years experience in the industry and I am nowhere near qualified to answer it.

At this stage of the discussion this is absolutely correct. You've got opinions about what people would find acceptable and how people feel about smoke breaks but what you now need is a qualified employment lawyer to turn any conclusions you may have come to into enforceable contracts.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Necro wrote:
Vaping is better for your employees than smoking.... institute a policy on where they cant vape and where they cant (ie around customers ...front of house).

Be reasonable regardless of law and they will reciprocate.

That is massively debatable, especially given the rash of deaths tied to vaping. People are trading one bad way of killing yourself for another bad way of killing yourself.

Aye. Nobody has ever died from smoking cigarettes for just a couple years, unlike Vaping. That stuff at least takes decades to kill you. And so does vaping, with the bonus danger that it might kill you much much quicker.

Vaping is at least as dangerous as cigarettes. Possibly moreso given the amount of unexpected deaths that have been resulting. Huffing boiling smoke and other chemicals into your lungs is NEVER going to be a positive thing for your lungs. It might not be as offensive to consume as a cigarette, but that doesn't mean its better.

I'm not a vaper, but let's also address that "normal" vaping isn't killing people rapidly. It's black-market "home made" chemicals in cheap vaping products which is killing people. Because, perhaps you should research what chemicals you're incinerating before pumping them into your lungs...at least that's what I've seen from the news reports. Apparently it's relatively easy to "create" a vaping liquid, but it's so easy that there is a large market of dirt cheap under-the-table vaping supplies which is not regulated, tested, etc. Hey, as long as it saves a buck, right!

I'm a smoker and i don't expect any special treatment, but then again i don't take smoke breaks. If you can't go a few hours without smoking you probably can't do the same at a tournament.

It's a disgusting habit, and i totally understand not smoking around others - especially children or in a work environment. Thankfully i'm down to a pack a week now.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Seriously, hire a lawyer.

You're asking a legal question and almost every response you've gotten is in fact legal advice - whether it looks like it or not - and I too would wager that not a single person here is qualified to give it.

I have a LL.B Law and more than ten years experience in the industry and I am nowhere near qualified to answer it.

Excellent point. In the end, we're all amateurs here. You really need the advice of a professional.

Like everyone has already said, if you want to do it right you will find out what the actual laws are and determine how to proceed from there.

That being said I have worked in the food industry for 10ish years and in all that time, break time was also smoke time, you can either eat or smoke, your choice. If a smoker asked me to hop outside for 5 minutes after a rush I would be happy to let them go as it can be an amazingly stressful job. Anything longer than that however would tend to piss off the non smokers for good reason.

Given that you seem to dole out a lot of 5 hour shifts and your problems stem from that I would just institute 1 smoke break for that period. Once you have some firm rules in place, the smokers will learn to take their smokes before and after the shift like most places. Don't know about the US but in Canada that's not a long enough shift to entitle a break at all, though our minimum wage just went up to $12/h so no one seems to mind. Were I getting $4/h in the case of some of your employees even I would probably take up smoking and take a couple of 15 minute breaks, that sounds like hell.

And finally, cut out that vaping in a restaurant immediately, that is just disgusting and probably going to get you sued the moment a customer finds out.

Cuda, I feel for you. This is a sticky wicket and is one of the reasons I am glad I am out of the retail/food industry small-business game for now.

If your handbook/manual/Rules Doc has clear and consistent guidelines then it is only a matter of enforcing them. Of course, that is the rub now isn't it.

I would limit them to regular break times like everyone else, have a designated "smoking" section outside of the building (preferably out back), and absolutely no Tobacco use of any kind on premises outside of this area.

Violations would lead to corrective action including and up to Termination. I would probably follow this approach, verbal warning, write-up, suspension, and then Termination.

 Elbows wrote:

I'm not a vaper, but let's also address that "normal" vaping isn't killing people rapidly. It's black-market "home made" chemicals in cheap vaping products which is killing people.

All the reports I've seen trace it to vitamin E being added to the vaping formula as a filler. Harmless if ingested, not harmless if inhaled. Nobody knew because huffing vitamin E isn't something people have been doing.

 Easy E wrote:
Cuda, I feel for you. This is a sticky wicket and is one of the reasons I am glad I am out of the retail/food industry small-business game for now.

If your handbook/manual/Rules Doc has clear and consistent guidelines then it is only a matter of enforcing them. Of course, that is the rub now isn't it.

I would limit them to regular break times like everyone else, have a designated "smoking" section outside of the building (preferably out back), and absolutely no Tobacco use of any kind on premises outside of this area.

Violations would lead to corrective action including and up to Termination. I would probably follow this approach, verbal warning, write-up, suspension, and then Termination.

It might be cool to have something like an addiction support pathway in place too (not necessarily limited to smoking either).

nareik wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
Cuda, I feel for you. This is a sticky wicket and is one of the reasons I am glad I am out of the retail/food industry small-business game for now.

If your handbook/manual/Rules Doc has clear and consistent guidelines then it is only a matter of enforcing them. Of course, that is the rub now isn't it.

I would limit them to regular break times like everyone else, have a designated "smoking" section outside of the building (preferably out back), and absolutely no Tobacco use of any kind on premises outside of this area.

Violations would lead to corrective action including and up to Termination. I would probably follow this approach, verbal warning, write-up, suspension, and then Termination.

It might be cool to have something like an addiction support pathway in place too (not necessarily limited to smoking either).

It would be cool, but most small businesses in the US can not provide medical benefits much less additional pathways for support.

However, IF you do have Health Insurance coverage through a group plan they may have some support plans available and built into the coverage.

A really creative alternative is to negotiate or swap services with a local provider for your employee base. However, most business in the health industry do not do that for various good reasons.

Good luck.