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 Ahtman wrote:
I enjoy gallows humor but I have to admit at being somewhat taken aback at the volume and cruelty being displayed at people in this situation.

To be clear I'm not referring to anything here. Other places on the net I've seen non-stop attacks on the passengers/crew.

I think it's mostly a combination of economics and very, very obvious foolishness.

Economically speaking, many, many people are struggling to make ends meet, and dealing with the rising price of pretty much everything alongside wage stagnation, alongside record profits for companies and their billionaire CEOs. Some billionaires have now paid 250 grand a piece, an amount that would change the lives of any struggling family out there for decades, to ride a submarine to an incredibly dangerous depth to see a wreck. There is very little sympathy or empathy for seeing someone who has profited off of impoverishing others use a tremendous amount of that money to deliberately put themselves in a very perilous situation.

Then you've got the whole concept. Who ever thought that a voyage to the bottom of the sea, not with a crew of trained professionals, was a good idea? Are you that bored that you need to engage in insanely dangerous behavior without experts? And the more you learn about their vessel, the more easily it's viewed as a bad choice. I wouldn't ride a carnival rollercoaster without seats, let alone squat in a tube headed to the floor of the sea which couldn't even find rooms for chairs or benches.

I understand they're likely dead or dying, and that's very sad... but how many of the people that work for them and are underpaid for their labor have suffered so these guys could have the funds to do this?

If this got too far into politics, I sincerely apologize, and by all means, report or ban away. But I think those are the factors driving the humor of this situation.
It is unquestionably vicious, but it's difficult to fault people considering the state of the world these billionaires help create and maintain.

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I enjoy gallows humor but I have to admit at being somewhat taken aback at the volume and cruelty being displayed at people in this situation.

To be clear I'm not referring to anything here. Other places on the net I've seen non-stop attacks on the passengers/crew.

I think it's mostly a combination of economics and very, very obvious foolishness.

Economically speaking, many, many people are struggling to make ends meet, and dealing with the rising price of pretty much everything alongside wage stagnation, alongside record profits for companies and their billionaire CEOs. Some billionaires have now paid 250 grand a piece, an amount that would change the lives of any struggling family out there for decades, to ride a submarine to an incredibly dangerous depth to see a wreck. There is very little sympathy or empathy for seeing someone who has profited off of impoverishing others use a tremendous amount of that money to deliberately put themselves in a very perilous situation.

Then you've got the whole concept. Who ever thought that a voyage to the bottom of the sea, not with a crew of trained professionals, was a good idea? Are you that bored that you need to engage in insanely dangerous behavior without experts? And the more you learn about their vessel, the more easily it's viewed as a bad choice. I wouldn't ride a carnival rollercoaster without seats, let alone squat in a tube headed to the floor of the sea which couldn't even find rooms for chairs or benches.

I understand they're likely dead or dying, and that's very sad... but how many of the people that work for them and are underpaid for their labor have suffered so these guys could have the funds to do this?

If this got too far into politics, I sincerely apologize, and by all means, report or ban away. But I think those are the factors driving the humor of this situation.
It is unquestionably vicious, but it's difficult to fault people considering the state of the world these billionaires help create and maintain.

I think you stated the reason pretty accurately.

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I enjoy gallows humor but I have to admit at being somewhat taken aback at the volume and cruelty being displayed at people in this situation.

To be clear I'm not referring to anything here. Other places on the net I've seen non-stop attacks on the passengers/crew.

I think it's mostly a combination of economics and very, very obvious foolishness.

I didn't say I didn't understand it or why people were reacting the way they were. Some of it has been very funny and insightful about those issues but some of it has just been "f**k those guys I'm glad they're dead", which is neither of those things. It also isn't even that sentiment it is sheer volume of that sentiment I'm surprised by.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I enjoy gallows humor but I have to admit at being somewhat taken aback at the volume and cruelty being displayed at people in this situation.

To be clear I'm not referring to anything here. Other places on the net I've seen non-stop attacks on the passengers/crew.

I think it's mostly a combination of economics and very, very obvious foolishness.

I didn't say I didn't understand it or why people were reacting the way they were. Some of it has been very funny and insightful about those issues but some of it has just been "f**k those guys I'm glad they're dead", which is neither of those things. It also isn't even that sentiment it is sheer volume of that sentiment I'm surprised by.

Well, people are fed up and they see this as a chance to direct some of that energy they probably have been sitting on for years.

 Gitzbitah wrote:


I understand they're likely dead or dying, and that's very sad... but how many of the people that work for them and are underpaid for their labor have suffered so these guys could have the funds to do this?

Way to assume that just because someone is rich that they abused a bunch of "poors" to get where they are and that they are. Im sure you could have donated all the money you spent on the frivolity of a miniature game to starving children somewhere. You didn't, but that doesn't make you a bad person and nor does a rich person doing rich person things make them a bad person.

Also, doesnt matter if you are rich or poor. People do stuff that others might call dumb that gets them killed all the time. Yet somehow its worse if its a rich person who did the dumb thing.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
My only thought is that it is strange that they did not have some sort of fail-safe beacon aboard. Not even a "black box," just a loud alarm clock in a pressure proof box that chimes every hour on the hour.

That's something I wondered about. I would have figured they would have been in constant contact with the ship they launched from, automatically sending back realtime location data and whatnot.

From what I know about operating at these depths that is incredibly difficult. The sheer volume of water between the surface and the subs makes wireless communication almost impossible and wire trailing out the back is unfeasible. You could keep comms reliable with a powerful enough transmitter, but space is precious in deep sea subs and its not a viable thing to do.

The comparison to space is kinda apt, but in some ways it is actually more dangerous than space. Vacuum wont immediately kill you.

Who said anything about wireless? Many submersibles (esp. unmanned) are tethered, they have several miles of communications and/or power cable linking them to a mothership. For something touristy like this where the passengers are untrained and inexperienced civilians with lots of money and liability risk, etc. I would have expected there to be a similar communications tether for safety reasons. Now, that tether might not be strong enough to pull the submersible back up by (though it would be nice if it was), but it should at the very least be able to provide some info as to what happened and where the thing is. The fact that it seems to have been a completely untethered submersible for commercial tourism purposes is just mind-boggling to me, I would never under any circumstances have got into that thing.

Tethers can also cause problems. Namely you run the risk of getting tangled in your own tether. A reasonable person might conclude that is a bigger risk than the security that a landline communications connection provides.

Plus remember that the Titanic is almost 4 km below the surface. And you need some slack in your tether. So you'd need 4+ km of tether length to operate a submarine at the Titanic. That is a lot of cable to store on the mother ship on the surface. This is why most tethered subs are short ranged, either operating in shallow water or operating from a larger submarine.

 Olthannon wrote:
I'm surprised meemon musk hasn't said he's going to suck all the water out the ocean to rescue them or something.

I'm sure he will valiantly save their companies through a cheap acquisition. I have doubts if the hyper wealthy give a damn about one another, just look at all the wars because one rich faff wanted what another rich faff owned? Then they send the rabble to go fight over it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:
I enjoy gallows humor but I have to admit at being somewhat taken aback at the volume and cruelty being displayed at people in this situation.

To be clear I'm not referring to anything here. Other places on the net I've seen non-stop attacks on the passengers/crew.

I'm assuming people don't become millionaires/billionairs by doing good things and likely more than a suffering or loss has been caused by them. Even if it's just lobbying that indirectly hurt another person or group.

As an example, if it turned out the CEO of Nestle was in that sub I'd say the world is a better place for it.

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
I enjoy gallows humor but I have to admit at being somewhat taken aback at the volume and cruelty being displayed at people in this situation.

To be clear I'm not referring to anything here. Other places on the net I've seen non-stop attacks on the passengers/crew.

I think it's mostly a combination of economics and very, very obvious foolishness.

Economically speaking, many, many people are struggling to make ends meet, and dealing with the rising price of pretty much everything alongside wage stagnation, alongside record profits for companies and their billionaire CEOs. Some billionaires have now paid 250 grand a piece, an amount that would change the lives of any struggling family out there for decades, to ride a submarine to an incredibly dangerous depth to see a wreck. There is very little sympathy or empathy for seeing someone who has profited off of impoverishing others use a tremendous amount of that money to deliberately put themselves in a very perilous situation.

Then you've got the whole concept. Who ever thought that a voyage to the bottom of the sea, not with a crew of trained professionals, was a good idea? Are you that bored that you need to engage in insanely dangerous behavior without experts? And the more you learn about their vessel, the more easily it's viewed as a bad choice. I wouldn't ride a carnival rollercoaster without seats, let alone squat in a tube headed to the floor of the sea which couldn't even find rooms for chairs or benches.

I understand they're likely dead or dying, and that's very sad... but how many of the people that work for them and are underpaid for their labor have suffered so these guys could have the funds to do this?

If this got too far into politics, I sincerely apologize, and by all means, report or ban away. But I think those are the factors driving the humor of this situation.
It is unquestionably vicious, but it's difficult to fault people considering the state of the world these billionaires help create and maintain.

Essentially you do not become a billionaire without making someone suffer

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
My only thought is that it is strange that they did not have some sort of fail-safe beacon aboard. Not even a "black box," just a loud alarm clock in a pressure proof box that chimes every hour on the hour.

That's something I wondered about. I would have figured they would have been in constant contact with the ship they launched from, automatically sending back realtime location data and whatnot.

From what I know about operating at these depths that is incredibly difficult. The sheer volume of water between the surface and the subs makes wireless communication almost impossible and wire trailing out the back is unfeasible. You could keep comms reliable with a powerful enough transmitter, but space is precious in deep sea subs and its not a viable thing to do.

The comparison to space is kinda apt, but in some ways it is actually more dangerous than space. Vacuum wont immediately kill you.

Who said anything about wireless? Many submersibles (esp. unmanned) are tethered, they have several miles of communications and/or power cable linking them to a mothership. For something touristy like this where the passengers are untrained and inexperienced civilians with lots of money and liability risk, etc. I would have expected there to be a similar communications tether for safety reasons. Now, that tether might not be strong enough to pull the submersible back up by (though it would be nice if it was), but it should at the very least be able to provide some info as to what happened and where the thing is. The fact that it seems to have been a completely untethered submersible for commercial tourism purposes is just mind-boggling to me, I would never under any circumstances have got into that thing.

Would a tether like that not act as a gigantic underwater sail due to ocean currents?

Haighus wrote:Yikes, sounds like a gakshow of an enterprise. The thing was apparently controlled using a wireless playstation controller with no hardwired back up for redundancy!

Apparently the sub will run out of O2 tomorrow morning if it hasn't suffered a catastrophic failure. It will shift to recovery then. I hope the find the sub so we can learn what went wrong.

The porthole on the hatch was reportedly rated to 1500, and the titanic rests at 4000 below the surface. I think chances are higher that the sub has imploded.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Bunch rich people cut corners and they are the ones to pay the price for once.
I'm not too bothered,
A week ago a migrant ship carring nearly 700 people sinks and its barely a blip on the new
But this gets hour to hour coverage

Is that the boat that was massively overcrowded? Not saying its not its own tragedy, and frankly that should be the bigger story rather than the sub. mainly wanting to clarify.

nels1031 wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Bunch rich people cut corners and they are the ones to pay the price for once.
I'm not too bothered,
A week ago a migrant ship carring nearly 700 people sinks and its barely a blip on the new
But this gets hour to hour coverage

With you on this.

I'd wager there are migrants who couldn't afford the smugglers prices who feel the same about those migrants who cut corners and got on a rickety boat for a dangerous voyage.

Also, media fatigue is a thing. We've been seeing migrant deaths for a long time, with an uptick in the past 11 years because of the Syrian Civil War. It doesn't move the needle for news organizations anymore. Sucks, but that's the business.

This submersible story though, is tailor made for sensational media. Rich People = Check. Historic Event(Titanic) = Check. A dramatic countdown(Oxygen) = Check. A bunch of specialized scientists willing to give their input, who'd otherwise never be on TV = Check.

Closest story to this in recent memory was the Tham Luang Cave rescue, which got a lot of press(even a movie), and involved no rich people, aside from those who inserted themselves (Elon Musk).

Its sad that news reporting and journalism has become sensationalism television instead of......the news?

Ahtman wrote:I enjoy gallows humor but I have to admit at being somewhat taken aback at the volume and cruelty being displayed at people in this situation.

To be clear I'm not referring to anything here. Other places on the net I've seen non-stop attacks on the passengers/crew.

When information came to light that proved gross negligence by the CEO and his company, one has to examine the negligence in the passengers towards their own safety. Especially with their level of resources. That they blindly trusted this company to keep them safe onboard a vessel that was to dive into extreme pressure depths is laughable in its absurdity.

Removed - please show some decency.

Laughing Man wrote:
Removed - please show some decency.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65981277

Missing Titanic submersible: Why oxygen timeline on sub may not be so fixed

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-us-canada-65967464

Live reporting

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65965665

Underwater robot vehicles are scouring the ocean floor to find a tourist submersible carrying five people that went missing during a dive to the wreck of the Titanic.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230621-titanic-sub-how-do-surveillance-planes-detect-ocean-submersibles

Titan sub: How do surveillance planes spot ocean submersibles?

The media binge isn't quite over.

----
Meanwhile, another migrant boat sank off the Canaries 3 hours ago. Already off the front page!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-65983001

Laughing Man wrote:
Removed - please show some decency.

That's just ghoulish.

cody.d. wrote:
I'm assuming people don't become millionaires/billionairs by doing good things and likely more than a suffering or loss has been caused by them. Even if it's just lobbying that indirectly hurt another person or group.

What a remarkably angry way to look at the world.

What this episode shows me is that all the 70s disaster movies were spot on. In almost every instance, there's some grand plan which is a surefire success, just ask everyone! Then that one guy says "but the safety protocols!" and everyone ignores him.

It's not a cautionary tale about wealth so much as pride.

A debris field has been found.

A debris field has been discovered within the search area by an ROV near the Titanic, the US Coast Guard has just announced.

Experts within the unified command are evaluating the information.

We will bring you more details shortly.

With the breaking news of a debris field being found in the search, US Coast Guard has announced it will hold a press conference at 15:00 local time (20:00 GMT).

A statement from the Coast Guard says the Horizon Arctic’s ROV (remotely operated vehicle) found debris on the sea floor near the Titanic wreck.

Rear Adm. John Mauger, the First Coast Guard District commander and Capt. Jamie Frederick, the First Coast Guard District response coordinator, will be speaking.

 BrookM wrote:
A debris field has been found.

A debris field has been discovered within the search area by an ROV near the Titanic, the US Coast Guard has just announced.

Experts within the unified command are evaluating the information.

We will bring you more details shortly.

With the breaking news of a debris field being found in the search, US Coast Guard has announced it will hold a press conference at 15:00 local time (20:00 GMT).

A statement from the Coast Guard says the Horizon Arctic’s ROV (remotely operated vehicle) found debris on the sea floor near the Titanic wreck.

Rear Adm. John Mauger, the First Coast Guard District commander and Capt. Jamie Frederick, the First Coast Guard District response coordinator, will be speaking.

At least they did not suffer much if their ship spontaneously lost integrity, it should have been over practically in an instant.

I am going to ask this once nicely, if you cannot contribute to this thread in a polite fashion, then don't. I am getting sick to the backteeth of these rude comments.

I really don’t want to be morbid, but as the clock runs out, and this looks ever more like a lost cause?

If that was my doom, I’d prefer a pressure related incident. Because at those depths? I wouldn’t have the time to even think “oh no”. You’re just….gone. Not in a pleasant manner by any means. But about as instantaneous as any of us could hope.

If it’s slowly running out of Oxygen? You have the worst thing available. Hope.

Whatever you may think of those aboard? They’re still human beings. Having seen my Mum, Grandparents and Uncles die lingering deaths? I can’t wish the same on anyone.

Yeah, we can hope that it was a catastrophic failure of the hull and not the slow agonizing alternative. Fortunately, it seems like that has been the case.

They found the subs landing gear and rear cover, so they are extremely dead, and likely have been for days.

Again, not wishing harm or anyone, being morbid or gloating?

I really hope it was a swift doom.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I really don’t want to be morbid, but as the clock runs out, and this looks ever more like a lost cause?

The Coast Guard will likely try to retrieve as much of the wreck as possible to analyze what went wrong.

The biggest reason travel has become so safe in the last 50 years is this constant scrutiny, study and design improvement.

One of the dangers that has emerged is a society-wide sense of complacency, a systemic underestimation of risk and therefore the steps necessary to mitigate it.

I think that is the case here. People who grew up watching "Titanic" think that going to see the wreck is like chartering a private plane. Look at what is going on with Mt. Everest, which actually has environmental degradation from all the tourists.

The world is a very dangerous place on its own, and I'm one of those people who is fine just looking at the pictures.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I really don’t want to be morbid, but as the clock runs out, and this looks ever more like a lost cause?

The Coast Guard will likely try to retrieve as much of the wreck as possible to analyze what went wrong.

The biggest reason travel has become so safe in the last 50 years is this constant scrutiny, study and design improvement.

One of the dangers that has emerged is a society-wide sense of complacency, a systemic underestimation of risk and therefore the steps necessary to mitigate it.

I think that is the case here. People who grew up watching "Titanic" think that going to see the wreck is like chartering a private plane. Look at what is going on with Mt. Everest, which actually has environmental degradation from all the tourists.

The world is a very dangerous place on its own, and I'm one of those people who is fine just looking at the pictures.

Mount Everest also has literally dozens of corpses laying about, as recovering them is not an option, and adds some almost every year - global tourism makes getting to Everest so (relatively) easy that a lot of people that have no business being there attempt it every year, with sometimes fatal consequences.

What happened here is a dude slapped a 1300m rated porthole on a sub going to 4000m to save money, refused to class the sub so nobody could inspect it, and got himself and four other people killed. This isn't a society wide problem, this is one guy doing everything he could to avoid society's regulations on nautical engineering, and finding out in spectacular fashion.

Laughing Man wrote:
What happened here is a dude slapped a 1300m rated porthole on a sub going to 4000m to save money, refused to class the sub so nobody could inspect it, and got himself and four other people killed. This isn't a society wide problem, this is one guy doing everything he could to avoid society's regulations on nautical engineering, and finding out in spectacular fashion.

I can only speculate what he was telling them before critical failure.
"It's OK, it's the sub adjusting to pressure"

Laughing Man wrote:
What happened here is a dude slapped a 1300m rated porthole on a sub going to 4000m to save money, refused to class the sub so nobody could inspect it, and got himself and four other people killed. This isn't a society wide problem, this is one guy doing everything he could to avoid society's regulations on nautical engineering, and finding out in spectacular fashion.

I mean, the profit motive undercutting long-term survival *is* a society-wide problem...

Right. OK.

As a poster? I’m renowned as a Dirty Leftie.

But, folks. People have lost their lives, or so it seems at the time of typing.

Do not celebrate that. Ever. Yes I’m that lefty. They had family. They had friends. And death always sucks.

Belt up.

Well. I can tell there's several people on thread i'm happy i don't have to meet irl. Horrible human beings.

Looks like it’s official now, the submarine’s operators are now saying the 5 onboard are believed to be dead. RIP.

At least it seems it was instantaneous.

Whether they “knew the risks” or not? I’m glad the evidence as it stands doesn’t point to drawn out trauma,

Always sad to see something like this, but frustrating as well as it does seem like it could have very easily been avoided with the application of just a little more common sense.

My thoughts are also with the guys who put their lives on the line to rescue them, I'm glad this didn't result any more fatalities.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
I'm assuming people don't become millionaires/billionairs by doing good things and likely more than a suffering or loss has been caused by them. Even if it's just lobbying that indirectly hurt another person or group.

What a remarkably angry way to look at the world.

What this episode shows me is that all the 70s disaster movies were spot on. In almost every instance, there's some grand plan which is a surefire success, just ask everyone! Then that one guy says "but the safety protocols!" and everyone ignores him.

It's not a cautionary tale about wealth so much as pride.

There is a lot of injustice in the world, things are very unfair for some out there. My life personally, is fairly comfy by comparison so it's not bitterness because i feel hard done by. But I am indeed angry about people being exploited, aaaaand usually it's the wealthy doing most of that exploitation. Meaning I have much less sympathy for the wealthy. If these people were workers employed to survey something, yeah I'd have more heart for them.

Additionally, if resources are expended assisting thrill seekers injured or lost that means that resources aren't been used or available should another emergency come up.

I live in AU, and if you read this article it talks about the cost of saving people lost in the bush. https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/bushwalkers-rescue-likely-to-come-with-10-000-price-tag-20121231-2c2q2.html That money could be used increasing the response time for the more day to day emergency assistance. Someone doing something stupid, like poorly prepared and thought out explorations at the bottom of the sea can cost more than just their own lives.

I apologize if these are ramblings, just trying to explain my feelings and thoughts on these sorts of scenarios.