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The Rules Commentary defines destroyed for three different purposes. They are single definitions

 alextroy wrote:
The Rules Commentary defines destroyed for three different purposes. They are single definitions

I greatly disagree with that point, bullet points are used to explain general concepts, when multiple definitions sharing a common prefix are included in the rules compendium, such as "Single Target (unit)" and "Single Target (model)" they are still given their own, non bullet pointed entry.

If it were as you suggested, and it was an ironclad definition, the units would some how deadly demise, Fight on death, and force disembark when they were not on the battlefield.

 Trickstick wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"■ Destroyed Model: When a model is reduced to 0 wounds, it is destroyed and removed from play"

Which makes destroyed and removed into two seperate things.

irrelevant when we're comparing model and unit

There is no point where "unit destroyed" exists while any model from that unit is still on the table.

I just realized this, but "Just After" is actually a defined keyword in the commentaries, and is likely the key to achieving greater clarity in this discussion.

Just After: If a rule is triggered ‘just after’ something has happened,
it is resolved before anything else happens. For example, if a rule
is triggered ‘just after’ a unit selects targets for its attacks, that
rule is resolved before those attacks are resolved. The triggering of
such rules can therefore interrupt normal sequences such as the
attack sequence or the charge sequence. See Eligible Target (no
longer eligible).

It seems pretty clear cut, it is resolved before anything else happens and that it can interrupt normal sequences...

However the cross reference rule must also be brought up for discussion for fairness, even though I do not believe it alters my conclusion.

That is "Eligible Target (no longer eligible) which reads as such

Eligible Target (no longer eligible): If a unit that was an eligible target
of an attack or charge when it was selected stops being an eligible
target for that attack or charge (for example, because a rule enables
it to make an out-of-phase move that takes it out of range), the
attacking or charging unit can select new targets for those attacks or
that charge. See Just After

I do not think anything here prevents the eligibility of Ursulas ability, since as I have said earlier, it is a static ability that can be taken advantage of by units within 12" of it, but only once per turn. Since Ursula's static is what is in question here, and not the function of the reinforcement stratagem itself. I would like to reiterate my assertions as claims.

Just After, expressly must happen before anything else, Just After actions can interrupt normal sequences , Ursula Creed can target fallen sentinels with Reinforcements!

Furthermore I believe this once again gives credence to allowing for Reinforcements to be used on any regiment unit, including infantry.

Reinforcements is just after the unit is destroyed. Which is after the last model is removed. There is no point in time where "unit destroyed?" Resolves to true while a model from that unit remains on the table.

I don’t even know what any of this was attempting to do. So much word salad in the OP I tuned out expecting a bad faith exploit.

Be concise people, else YAWN trumps RAW.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don’t even know what any of this was attempting to do. So much word salad in the OP I tuned out expecting a bad faith exploit.

Be concise people, else YAWN trumps RAW.

Yes I do go on quite a bit. To put it simply a sentinel is destroyed and it goes to do its deadly demise, so you target it since it was just after it was destroyed. Because of how "Just After" is worded, the reinforcements stratagem must be dealt with before anything else happens, this includes removing the model from play or conducting the deadly demise roll. So yeah, that how normal reinforcements! happens. It is just that if Ursula Creed is within 12" you may have the choice of doing it for 0cp.

If gw notice, expect that not to stick around. To many edge cases that won't feel consistent

nosferatu1001 wrote:
To many edge cases that won't feel consistent

At this point, I half expect that to have been part of the main design ethos for 10th.

I will just tell people they can't fight on death and their vehicles don't explode.

"Sorry, you aren't destroyed until your model is removed, and once it's removed it's not in range to attack or explode on anything. Them's the rules."

Of course, they could say it's possible to be destroyed without being removed, but that's the point of this thread...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I will just tell people they can't fight on death and their vehicles don't explode.

"Sorry, you aren't destroyed until your model is removed, and once it's removed it's not in range to attack or explode on anything. Them's the rules."

Of course, they could say it's possible to be destroyed without being removed, but that's the point of this thread...

Explicit exceptions to the rules are explicit exceptions. The reinforcements stratagem makes no such exception.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I will just tell people they can't fight on death and their vehicles don't explode.

"Sorry, you aren't destroyed until your model is removed, and once it's removed it's not in range to attack or explode on anything. Them's the rules."

Of course, they could say it's possible to be destroyed without being removed, but that's the point of this thread...

Explicit exceptions to the rules are explicit exceptions. The reinforcements stratagem makes no such exception.

To make it even more clear: e.g. Fight-on-dead gives an explicit instruction to leave the model on the table when it would otherwise be removed, and use it for measurement. Reinforcements does not. Nobody is saying Reinforcements can't target a unit that was destroyed (that is literally the defined case of what it should do), we're argueing that, because this Stratagem does not instruct you to leave anything on the table, you can't measure a distance to this unit for Creed's ability and thus can't have this specific Stratagem be free and useable twice by using that specific ability, because that would require you to make a measurement which is impossible to make.

The exercise of finding out if you could use that combo after all if you exploited a unit with Fight-on-Dead or Deadly Demise with a cunningly timed use of Reinforcements is left to the reader

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I will just tell people they can't fight on death and their vehicles don't explode.

"Sorry, you aren't destroyed until your model is removed, and once it's removed it's not in range to attack or explode on anything. Them's the rules."

Of course, they could say it's possible to be destroyed without being removed, but that's the point of this thread...

Except that's not the conclusion of this thread. It's almost like those rules have explicit allowances to do so,etching. That Ursula creeds rule doesn't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I will just tell people they can't fight on death and their vehicles don't explode.

"Sorry, you aren't destroyed until your model is removed, and once it's removed it's not in range to attack or explode on anything. Them's the rules."

Of course, they could say it's possible to be destroyed without being removed, but that's the point of this thread...

Except that's not the conclusion of this thread. It's almost like those rules have explicit allowances to do so,etching. That Ursula creeds rule doesn't.

Thats because you use this frame of time in the Reinforcement rule. If Ursula is within 12" as this is going on, you can pay 0cp otherwise you pay 2cp. However in both instances Reinforcements! inherently allows you to interrupt the normal sequence of actions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:

Spoiler:

The answer is no, because DD is a 'just after' abilitiy that needs to be handled before anything else and needs to be concluded before the next thing can happen, and as DD ends with removing the model after you resolved the attacks, you're back to square one after it resolves.

Deadly Demise is not a 'just after' ability.

There is no time period you can get Ursula measured as within 12".

nosferatu1001 wrote:
There is no time period you can get Ursula measured as within 12".

The core rule book says

MEASURING DISTANCES
Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches ("). You
can measure distances whenever you wish.

In this instance I would wish to measure the distance between Ursula and the destoyed unit, before I dealt with the measuring and rolling of deadly demise.

Kindly stay on topic, get to the point or I'm locking this one.

For non vehicle units there is no time period you can fulfil the requirement for the strat and measure. it's impossible.

For vehicle units it's inconsistent and I expect it will be faq away.

Can the period of time Ursula is within 12" for her thing be the same period of time when she is within 6" to take wounds from Deadly Demise?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can the period of time Ursula is within 12" for her thing be the same period of time when she is within 6" to take wounds from Deadly Demise?

No, because Deadly Demise explicitly occurs before the model is removed from play.

Yep
A unit being destroyed requires all models to be removed. DD has an interrupt that Ursula doesn't get to "see"

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep
A unit being destroyed requires all models to be removed. DD has an interrupt that Ursula doesn't get to "see"

Except when it hurts her right? She 'sees' it then?

I mean if all the models are removed I guess she doesn't take damage because she isn't in range, so that's good at least.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
No, because Deadly Demise explicitly occurs before the model is removed from play.

"Just destroyed" would take place after destroyed, but before removed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
A unit being destroyed requires all models to be removed.

Can you cite where it says that? I can only find where a unit counts as destroyed after all models are destroyed, which would be before final removal if destroyed and removed are 2 seperate events.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep
A unit being destroyed requires all models to be removed. DD has an interrupt that Ursula doesn't get to "see"

Except when it hurts her right? She 'sees' it then?

I mean if all the models are removed I guess she doesn't take damage because she isn't in range, so that's good at least.

You're misunderstanding

Dad gets to see the model being destroyed as it explicitly says it does

Ursula has to wait you til after the unit is destroyed to use reinforcements. That only occurs after the last model is Model Destroyed. This removed the model from play, and as such Ursula cannot possibly be within 12".

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yep
A unit being destroyed requires all models to be removed. DD has an interrupt that Ursula doesn't get to "see"

Except when it hurts her right? She 'sees' it then?

I mean if all the models are removed I guess she doesn't take damage because she isn't in range, so that's good at least.

You're misunderstanding

Dad gets to see the model being destroyed as it explicitly says it does

Ursula has to wait you til after the unit is destroyed to use reinforcements. That only occurs after the last model is Model Destroyed. This removed the model from play, and as such Ursula cannot possibly be within 12".

What if I play reinforcements just after the model is destroyed, before rolling the D6 to see for Deadly Demise? If I am the active player (e.g., it died from a Hazardous weapon in my own phase), I get to pick the order...

Presumably the unit is destroyed when the last model is destroyed - which is when both DD and Reinforcements happen.

The unit is destroyed after the final model is removed
Deadly demise occurs before the model is removed

Two different times. The UNIT is destroyed after its final model is removed.

I suppose I will lay out the series of actions that occur as I theorize them.

1. The last sentinel model in a unit is destroyed
1a. the unit is destroyed
1b. as the last model in the unit is destroyed, the unit is considered destroyed.

2. Deadly demise is proc'd
2a. The sentinel unit regiment was just destroyed, triggering the ability to issue Reinforcements targeting the destroyed unit.
2b. The player uses their free ability to measure distances at any time to ascertain if it is within 12" of Ursula Creed.
2c. This is the case, so reinforcements is procced on the destroyed unit, and the player is able to do so for 0cp.
2d. Reinforcements! procs.
2e. Reinforcements! resolves and a new copy of the destroyed unit is placed into reserves.

3. Deadly demise is played out and resolves, as there are no more actions allowing for the interruption of normal sequences remaining.
3a. The player rolls the deadly demise roll
3b. If there is no deadly demise trigger, remove the destroyed sentinel unit as instructed to by the deadly demise ability.
3c. On a deadly demise trigger, the player must measure out a 6" radius around the unit (the reason why the destroyed model needs to remain on the battlefield.)
3d. Play out the deadly demise damage and remove the destroyed unit as instructed by the deadly demise ability.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The unit is destroyed after the final model is removed

Where are you finding this rule? I can only find the following:

"When every model in a unit has been destroyed, that unit is destroyed."

Core rules, page 12.

Destroyed Unit: When the last model in a unit has been destroyed, that unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Commentaries, page 4.

Nothing about removal being needed for a unit to count as destroyed. We know that destroyed and removed are two different steps in order for deadly demise, and other rules, to function. So you can use the "just destroyed" wording to interupt between the two moments, and be able to measure to a destroyed unit.