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The trouble is whilst they still have an easier time negotiating difficult terrain? The denser it is, the slower they’re going to be.

And in any environment of dense terrain, you’re going to get ambushers. And the slower you go? The more effective those ambushes are going to be. Especially against any specialised infantry.

Battlesuits however are probably a thorny problem, because they have all the advantages you want that make Sentinels so useful in a jungle fight, with added jump jets for further verticality.

The real problem with Tau isn't the battlesuits it's the seeker missiles. You're out on patrol in the jungle and suddenly your whole squad is obliterated by a pinpoint missile strike fired from miles away and guided by a stealth unit you have no hope of seeing. Guard can sometimes win an attrition war in relatively open terrain against Tau, where everyone is exposed and raw offensive and defensive stats matter more than tactics, but the denser the terrain gets the more the environment favors the advanced networking and coordination the Tau have. And a jungle is the ultimate example of dense terrain.

Stealth suits would be good in some jungle terrains and not others. They are invisible after all, but can't stop environmental sounds, and also have unpredictable interactions with local fauna. Most jungle forces have animal assistance of some kind (the Brits love our jungle mutts) so you have more problems than just being spotted - and spotting ranges aren't far in jungle environments.

Pathfinders would be more of a worry to me than Stealth Suits.

ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Basically we still see land wars in the setting for various reasons. A dedicated jungle force could bring to the table:
a) attacking trough parts of the frontline the enemy thought were unpassible (WWII japanese attack on Singapore, chindits campaign)
b) secure installations/airfields that should not just be nuked from orbit in jungle terrain (a bit like the WWII islandhopping. And the Navy fighters seem to still need some kind of facilities to work)
c) Fight back insurgents in your own jungle terrain, where you also don't want to just nuke everything to the ground (here I see the brown water Navy part of the Vietnam war and also all the sides involved in the french indochina to Vietnam war area and region)

A and B make sense in the real world but are much less relevant in 40k. The concept of a front line matters much less when you can deploy a whole army via dropship anywhere on the planet. And securing airfields isn't very relevant when your aircraft all have enough range to operate from bases thousands of miles from the fight or from carriers in orbit. It's not like WWII where 500 miles was considered extreme range for aircraft and you needed bases close to the action.

C runs into the problem of 40k's (lack of) ethics. A jungle is by definition undeveloped land where you don't really have anything of value and there's no reason not to bomb it all flat to kill the enemy. It's not like you're concerned about civilian casualties, dead enemy civilians are a bonus because you don't have to kill them the hard way later. So in this case you'd be in the scenario of fortified bases protecting anything of value in the jungle and a whole bunch of empty terrain that is mostly ignored until it's time to call in an air or artillery strike.

The dropships are vulnerable to anti-air fire and much more valuable than the Guardsmen. Most commanders would choose to expend guardsmen over dropships, especially as they are the only option to retreat off world (if authorised).

Range is still relevant for aircraft too- this was apparent even in WWII. Closer aircraft can respond quicker, perform sorties at a higher rate, and spend more time loitering in the combat zone. If half the time is spent entering and leaving the atmosphere, that is less time for air cover to do its job. Imperial forces routinely establish ground airfields for attached Navy wings if possible.

C is fine if you have enough artillery, but you probably still want to send forces out to disrupt enemy build ups to prevent them gaining the initiative and doing something unexpected to your defense. A static defense without active counterattacks and raids is a weak defense.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
These are all good options, if your forces are in a dominant position. They are basically the US in Vietnam (with more genocide), but often Imperial forces are the Vietcong or are in more of a peer-to-peer fight.

If guard are forced into an insurgency against anything other than low-end PDF they're just plain dead. Hiding in the jungle is fine against 1960s era gear, it's not very useful against something like Tau automated surveillance drones that can instantly spot an approaching threat and call in a missile strike before the guardsmen even know they've been spotted or demons that literally don't exist in our world until they pop out of nowhere and start slaughtering. Guard need a dominant position because their entire approach to winning a war relies on attrition warfare backed by immense logistical capability. If there is no orbital support the supply of manpower and equipment rapidly ends and that's it for the war.

This doesn't follow from many lore examples. Guard regiments frequently garrison worlds against raids and insurgencies without significant local Navy support, relying on local stockpiles.

Firstly, there are lots of local threats for Guard to fight- feral Orks, Chaos cultusts, Genestealer cultists, other rebels. The Navy is not normally bothered with these, they will deposit a regiment and leave- a sector typically has 50-75 warp-capable warships, it has to prioritise their use. Forces in this position cede initiative to the enemy if they simply sit back in forts and wait, this allows an enemy to build strength for an attack.

Secondly, Guard can fight with low supply- their basic equipment is very durable and lasguns can be recharged in field conditions. They are undoubtedly more effective with the weight of the Departmento Munitorum behind them, but regiments with good fieldcraft are frequently displayed engaging in guerilla campaigns with success.

Thirdly, I think you are underestimating Imperial equipment- clearly they have at least somewhat effective countermeasures to enemy electronic warfare because they are able to mount guerilla warfare against advanced foes (see below). Daemons are obviously a special case, and daemons popping up randomly all over a world is typically an apocalypse event anyway for almost any faction in 40k.

ThePaintingOwl wrote:The real problem with Tau isn't the battlesuits it's the seeker missiles. You're out on patrol in the jungle and suddenly your whole squad is obliterated by a pinpoint missile strike fired from miles away and guided by a stealth unit you have no hope of seeing. Guard can sometimes win an attrition war in relatively open terrain against Tau, where everyone is exposed and raw offensive and defensive stats matter more than tactics, but the denser the terrain gets the more the environment favors the advanced networking and coordination the Tau have. And a jungle is the ultimate example of dense terrain.

This is counter to Tau lore, in which they typically struggle with fighting in dense terrain, and perform much better in open areas like the desert on Taros. Tau benefit from long sightlines (markerlights are line of sight devices) and unrestricted mobility. Tau keep developing specialised forces to overcome this weakness (breachers, hazard suits) but they still rely on auxiliaries like the Kroot. Tau forces are also small, so they feel losses keenly.

A good example is Cytheria, where Catachan regiments are roundly defeated in open combat, but wage a protected guerilla campaign in the jungle:




Clearly Imperial forces, at least those experienced in jungle guerilla operations, have countermeasures to Tau surveillance and intelligence. Logically, drones and stealth suits will be easier to avoid in dense terrain, where they have to be closer to detect you and may have to push through terrain and risk noise or the absence of noise if the local wildlife goes quiet. Stealth suits are also possible to spot for experienced soldiers- Lieutenant Kage detects a waiting ambush of stealth suits in a Tau training jungle because he knows something isn't right about that area.

In addition, the Imperial Guard uses advanced scanners (also called surveyors or auspex) and jammers (also called stummers) of its own, which seem to have efficacy against Tau equipment to some extent. Sure, even the regimental techpriest probably has no idea how they actually work, but they do and they are rugged.