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Lets not get into backed goods because that gets bonkers as soon as the USA are involved.


Such as calling all biscuits cookies, scones are something else and I don't know what the heck they call an actual cookie.

Its a serious issue.

As of 2014, a petition was put up to criminalise the mis-labelling of pies:
https://www.vice.com/en/article/d75b7v/the-uk-is-extremely-criminally-serious-about-the-definition-of-pie

The UK Meat Pie and Sausage Roll Regulations 1967 define "meat pie" as follows:
"meat pie" means any product containing meat which is wholly or partly encased in pastry and is intended for sale for human consumption and includes pastry and meat pudding but does not include sausage roll or vol-au-vent

As far as I can tell these regulations are still in force. There is also a definition for "Scottish Pie" and the Regulations make clear that, where appropriate, the words "meat and vegetable pie" may be substituted for "Cornish pasty" or "Forfar bridie".

Sainsbury's has also weighed in on this topic
https://www.sainsburysmagazine.co.uk/lifestyle/food/when-is-a-pie-not-a-pie

This... is this the british Bündnerfleisch incident?

 Overread wrote:
Lets not get into backed goods because that gets bonkers as soon as the USA are involved.


Such as calling all biscuits cookies, scones are something else and I don't know what the heck they call an actual cookie.

The biscuit thing is baffling to me, because it is quite a recent change.

For example, the manufacturer of oreos is called NaBisCo... which is short for National Biscuit Company. So during the 20th century biscuit got supplanted by cookie somehow.

Legal ruling on lovely biccies and tasty cakes?

When stale, a Biscuit goes soft.

When stale, a Cake goes hard.

This is why Jaffa Cakes are legally cakes, and thus not subject to Value Added Tax (VAT), a UK product tax applied to luxury goods.

Cakes do not attract VAT, biccies do. Therefore biccies are luxury products.

Yes there was legitimately a court case which ruled Jaffa Cakes are genuine Cakes, and not Biccies.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Legal ruling on lovely biccies and tasty cakes?

When stale, a Biscuit goes soft.

When stale, a Cake goes hard.

This is why Jaffa Cakes are legally cakes, and thus not subject to Value Added Tax (VAT), a UK product tax applied to luxury goods.

Cakes do not attract VAT, biccies do. Therefore biccies are luxury products.

Yes there was legitimately a court case which ruled Jaffa Cakes are genuine Cakes, and not Biccies.

Yeah I recall that one! Or at least all the hype around it at the time and the ruling! One of the few bits of news worth watching for 5 seconds

Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I still want to note that Mad Doc is Mad and I think should be invalidated from the fight owing to him considering Cottage Pie/Shepherds Pie terrible - whilst trying to pretend that he's from England!





Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)

Live. I live in England. I was born in Scotland.

Which means you may have expected Scotch Pie to be my favourite, with its amazing hot water pastry crust. And it is up there in my esteem, but is not my favourite.

How about Scotch Eggs?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Pizza is never a "pie".

 Overread wrote:
Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)

Some would say that's the best part!

It is in New York/New Jersey/the broader northeastern US. If you want a whole pizza, you order a whole pie. Go down south or to the west coast and say that and they'll have no idea what you're asking for. You're not referring to a pizza as being a pie in the technical sense by saying that, you're using the term pie to describe the size/shape of the pizza, vs a slice which is used for a triangular slice of approximately 1/8th of the pies whole.

Now, tomato pie (specifically of the Trenton variety), which is a pizza but with a slightly different sauce and the order of sauce & cheese reversed (pizza = sauce then cheese, tomato pie = cheese then sauce), is a real debate - technically speaking, its not a "pastry" crust/shell/top, but its still a form of bread, etc. so does it count? According to some of you it might technically be a tart, rather than a pie.

Chicago Deep Dish though... thats a casserole, regardless of the presence of bread.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Listen, it's not the issue of the rest of the world that you lot can't cook. Or even get your culinary vocabulary straight.
Its also not our fault that you decided to colonise everything for spices and then decided that you didn't like a single one either.


Obviously i am joking you do some mean steaks and indeed beef based pies are awesone.

Thats not fair, I've heard that the English are particularly fond of a good Vindaloo.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.

Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.

In all honesty, it sounds American

 Haighus wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.

Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.

In all honesty, it sounds American

I've also never heard of it, but looking on google it's some Cornish thing so that's the complete opposite end of the country to me. I don't think it really counts because yon Southerners can't do pies properly I'm afraid.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.

Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.

In all honesty, it sounds American

I've also never heard of it, but looking on google it's some Cornish thing so that's the complete opposite end of the country to me. I don't think it really counts because yon Southerners can't do pies properly I'm afraid.

Heh. Different strokes for different countries. Southern cooking in the USA is some real good stuff.

Of course, there is plenty of regional bias, but that’s normal anywhere.

I honestly would not know where to stick a pin in the map if someone asked me where the best pies in the US were…

Pies should be called by what you put in them. Best pies are rhubarb, apple and blueberry.

I have not eaten any weird pies with shepards or cottages -sounds crazy, to be honest.

Scotch Eggs aren’t Scottish. Though they are quite tasty, I prefer them with Black Pudding instead of the Sosig Meat.

Stargazey Pie is a genuine, if rare, dish.

It’s origins are said to be in a small Cornish fishing village which due to a sustained period of awful weather, was facing starvation as none of the boats would brace the tempestuous seas. All but on, who came home safe with a haul of Pilchards, staving off the famine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargazy_pie


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And who can forget the Shrewsbury Pie Pie. The true reason for the UK leaving the EU!

Here’s genuine archival footage of events as they actually unfurled.

I prefer a good cream pie over a baked pie myself.

Huh, never come across Shrewsbury pie pie before,and I'm a Salopian!

I like a good cherry pie, which has crust on the top and bottom and therefore should count as a pie by all definitions. I also like pecan pie, but that's a tart, according to some of you.

 Olthannon wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Whats dakkas opinion on Stargazey pie? I'm not convinced its a real item of food that anyone in England eats. I think its something you came up with to trick tourists into embarassing themselves.

Well. It's a sample size of one... but I've never heard of it.

In all honesty, it sounds American

I've also never heard of it, but looking on google it's some Cornish thing so that's the complete opposite end of the country to me. I don't think it really counts because yon Southerners can't do pies properly I'm afraid.

My understanding was that Pasty's (Pasties?) originated in Cornwall, so... is a pasty not a pie?

As per the 1967 Regulations I posted earlier, Cornish pasties are very much legal pies

Oh man. I just remembered Breakfast Pies.

Sold by a bakers in Craigentinny, Edinburgh.

Hot Water Pastry Crust, filled with egg, sausage, bacon and beans. They were absolute heaven.

If you need more carbs you can always go for a macaroni pie with chips.

I’m pretty sure you can also get that in butty format.

Well, since I had a hand in starting this, I figured I should come back and first, maintain my argument that pies need a pastry crust, and ideally, all encasing, not just the top. To which I'm pleased to see there is precedent.

However, I accept that is common to call shepherd / cottage pie, pie, despite it being a casserole. In the same way various fruits get called vegetables.

However, that does lead me onto:...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Scotch Eggs aren’t Scottish. Though they are quite tasty, I prefer them with Black Pudding instead of the Sosig Meat.

Pudding. There are way too many things called pudding here.

 Flinty wrote:
As per the 1967 Regulations I posted earlier, Cornish pasties are very much legal pies

So then southerners CAN make good pies?

Wait until you lot get into
the subject of cheeseCake and Boston cream PIE.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Live. I live in England. I was born in Scotland.

So, per Evelyn Waugh, do you still eat porridge with your fingers?

Pasties are a prized specialty in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, a staple of the copper and iron miners and typically made in small batches.

"Pot pies" (chicken, beef, sometimes turkey) are part of the American industrialized frozen food complex.

I get a sense that a lot of British cuisine is based on the risk of starving to death on an overcast rock, especially when the U-boats returned from their spawning grounds. Here in the States (where we grow so much grain that we run our cars on it), pies are a dessert. There's an apple/blueberry/cherry variant popular in these parts that is superbly tasty.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

Spinning off from the Rumour Engine Thread. No. Really.

I declare The Great Dakka Pie Fight Of 2023 officially started!

Opening shots?

Whether pie or casserole, Cottage and Shepher’s pie are both vile concoctions. You want Mince and Tatties, just eat mince and tatties like a big boy. And trust me, at 6’2” eating Mince and Tatties clearly does make you a Big Boy.

Besides, everyone knows a Steak and Kidney pie in shortcrust is the One True King Of Pies. Savoury, unctuous and just melt in the mouth delicious.

I do believe you are familiar with the concept of "stovies" aye?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chicago Deep Dish though... thats a casserole, regardless of the presence of bread.

Given the way people are describing tarts, I almost want to call a Deep Dish pizza a tart.

Since it's that time of year:

pumpkin pie with freshly whipped cream.

Some people swear by sweet potato pie, which is very good, although I prefer pumpkin.

For any Discworld appreciators out there, the winner is of course CMOT Dibbler's meat pies. Case closed.

Catulle wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do!

Spinning off from the Rumour Engine Thread. No. Really.

I declare The Great Dakka Pie Fight Of 2023 officially started!

Opening shots?

Whether pie or casserole, Cottage and Shepher’s pie are both vile concoctions. You want Mince and Tatties, just eat mince and tatties like a big boy. And trust me, at 6’2” eating Mince and Tatties clearly does make you a Big Boy.

Besides, everyone knows a Steak and Kidney pie in shortcrust is the One True King Of Pies. Savoury, unctuous and just melt in the mouth delicious.

I do believe you are familiar with the concept of "stovies" aye?

Of course. And everyone’s Mum makes the best Stovies, despite everyone’s Mum making their own unique version


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Chicago Deep Dish though... thats a casserole, regardless of the presence of bread.

Given the way people are describing tarts, I almost want to call a Deep Dish pizza a tart.

I don’t think it qualifies, as it’s a dough not a pastry crust.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I may be a dirty pie boy tonight.

Got a Fray Bento’s tinned pie in the kitchen. Whilst cheap and indisputably nasty? They’re a genuine occasional treat.

 Overread wrote:


Also I'd hasten to point out that shepherds pie can have a crispy top. You just layer it meat-potato-cheese and then leave the cheese in just enough to brown a touch (carefully so it doesn't burn)

Another way to get a crispy topping is to leave the cheese out altogether, make a buttery mash and pipe it onto the meat. The butter crisps up the potato beautifully, whilst keeping the inside nice and soft. Now I am going to have to make a cottage pie...

Pastry all around is nice, but then you have the confusion of pasties. By that measure, a pasty is a pie? Is a sausage roll a pie, as it's meat surrounded by pastry? Clearly not. Therefore the idea of a pie being meat and pastry doesn't hold, and meat and potato pies should be back in the running.

Well, hopefully this can put the matter to a close.

3. All Pies in all Classes of the British Pie Awards must comply with being ‘a filling wholly encased in pastry and baked’. Entries which do not comply e.g. lattice topped, fruit topped, potato topped, samosas or any fried products etc will not be submitted for judging. For clarity, a single hole in the lid of the pie must be no more than 25mm diameter (for steam exit or jellying etc).

https://www.britishpieawards.co.uk/rules-of-entry/

Well those might the the rules for competitive British pies, but there are other pies being eaten across the world! And more casual pies!

Most of that definition I can get behind, but no lattice tops? I get that you can’t just slap a strip of dough on a tart and call it a pie, but a good latice is a work of art.