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meh, I feel like there were a lot of filler books that didn't really add anything of value or substance to the narrative, and lots of inconsequential side characters, meaningless and meandering sub-plots, and dropped plot hooks/threads that never went anywhere that could have just been entirely omitted and you'd still have an incredible narrative broken out across a few dozen books - and one which would probably be more cohesive and impactful, and more focused on the elements of said narrative that actually matter to a majority of the fanbase as opposed to veering off into various side-stories and vignettes that do nothing to further the story or develop the characters.

I think the problem with the HH is the wildly variable quality of the books, that you really don't know you're walking into until you've bought the book and seen how poor it is.

I essentially only read books from 4 authors for HH (Abnett, ADB, Wraight and French) with some exceptions for stuff you either can't easily skip or is covering stuff I'm interested in (the first 4 books, and a couple of others here and there).

The prose quality is just not there with the other books I've checked out. And there's very little quality control on the books, with the tone whiplashing around a lot and some books feeling much more 40K than 30K if that makes any sense.

And finally and most damningly, in 50+ books they really didn't make much effort to introduce all the Legions and develop them, so if you're a fan of a particular Legion you might get a short story here or there but nothing else. Given the insane amount of books I find that honestly mind boggling!

I made a google doc to share with my friends about which books were worth a look from the Heresy and I recommended 10 of the books wholeheartedly and 12 I said you could read if you liked, the rest I recommended skipping. Not a great hit rate!

The Siege I think had up to this book been a lot better. Most of the books are on par with the better Heresy books, and any wobbles are just as good as the still-readable-but-weaker books. Even this book I think essentially lands what it's trying to do, but I just don't agree that it should be trying to do that, and fully agree it needed an pretty ruthless edit.

Personally I'd rather read the entire Siege from the perspective of mid level Astartes and human soldiers than anything else though, so I'm probably not typical in my tastes.

chaos0xomega wrote:
meh, I feel like there were a lot of filler books that didn't really add anything of value or substance to the narrative, and lots of inconsequential side characters, meaningless and meandering sub-plots, and dropped plot hooks/threads that never went anywhere that could have just been entirely omitted and you'd still have an incredible narrative broken out across a few dozen books - and one which would probably be more cohesive and impactful, and more focused on the elements of said narrative that actually matter to a majority of the fanbase as opposed to veering off into various side-stories and vignettes that do nothing to further the story or develop the characters.

Ok but have you considered that these one off novels or short stories are there to give people narrative hooks for their own forces?
The majority of criticism I see levelled at the novel series (which BTW is conspicuously missing from the FW series despite it actually doing the exact same thing) is all about telling too much story when that's literally what was asked for.
Not everything needs to tie in to Horus's push for Terra. Telling the small stories bring that personal touch to the Heresy IMO and gives you the wider view of how the most important conflict in Imperial history effected the people involved.

For me it's not too much story, it's that the writing quality isn't up to scratch and there are issues with focus and structure. Like some stuff gets a load of focus and then you've got entire factions that either don't get a book to themselves or get one book and then nothing else in 50+ novels.

What factions specifically do you feel didn't get enough focus?
This isn't to say you are wrong but I've read a large amount of the series and while some get more limelight that others, that is to be expect in most cases i.e. Sons of Horus.

First one that comes to mind is the Night Lords, they only get a few short stories.

Iron Hands likewise mostly get short stories and to be kinda side characters for other stories.

I'd have enjoyed a story about the Imperial Army as well, though it might have been challenging and perhaps Tallarn fits that.

Then you've got Legions who get one book, pretty much, and nothing else. Which considering how long the series is, is pretty surprising to me.

 Da Boss wrote:
First one that comes to mind is the Night Lords, they only get a few short stories.

Prince of Crows, Pharos, and Angels of Caliban come to mind plus some other short stories. Just because they aren't the main POV, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Iron Hands likewise mostly get short stories and to be kinda side characters for other stories.

I mean there was an entire anthology dedicated largely to them with Shattered Legions but I do get your point about a lack of larger stories outside of Meduson. Though I would perhaps argue that's maybe the point? The Iron Hands were kind of ruined after Istvaan and with a dead Primarch, you can't really tell stories like with Corax or Vulkan, even if the latter had some truly awful stories.

I'd have enjoyed a story about the Imperial Army as well, though it might have been challenging and perhaps Tallarn fits that.

Agree 100% with this. I think that a lack of human perspectives in the majority of the HH series has been tempered somewhat with the abundance we've seen in the Siege books but it would have been nice to see them crop up more frequently earlier.

Then you've got Legions who get one book, pretty much, and nothing else. Which considering how long the series is, is pretty surprising to me.

Such as? Each Legion got at least two by my reckoning.

I think we reckon things differently then, because I only count it if the Legion gets to be the POV in the story.

No big deal though, I just would have liked a more disciplined approach to that, but it's not the biggest issue I have or anything.

 Gert wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
meh, I feel like there were a lot of filler books that didn't really add anything of value or substance to the narrative, and lots of inconsequential side characters, meaningless and meandering sub-plots, and dropped plot hooks/threads that never went anywhere that could have just been entirely omitted and you'd still have an incredible narrative broken out across a few dozen books - and one which would probably be more cohesive and impactful, and more focused on the elements of said narrative that actually matter to a majority of the fanbase as opposed to veering off into various side-stories and vignettes that do nothing to further the story or develop the characters.

Ok but have you considered that these one off novels or short stories are there to give people narrative hooks for their own forces?

...no? I suppose thats an interesting perspective on it. But then it really is just marketing filler, basically, masquerading as literary work. Theres so many people who read and follow the HH series that have not and will not ever pick up the miniatures game. Its diminishing the overall quality of the effort to appease what is in actuality probably only a minority of the readership (you don't hit the NYT bestseller list without expanding massively beyond the games playerbase), and in turn alienate those who want the complete narrative but are put off by filler.

Also generally agreed with Da Boss. In such a massive sprawling work, it is quite silly that some of the key players in the events that occurred get relatively minimal screentime, especially with the overabundance of unnecessary sideplots following minor characters that do nothing of real consequence or are pulled from legions that already get plenty of attention, etc. A couple novel length books from the Iron Hands POV dealing with the fallout and attempts to recover following the death of their primarch and the ruining of their legion can be just as interesting and meaningful - and just as relatably human - as the lets call it a dozen or so "human perspective" stories that otherwise go nowhere. Stories like that definitely tell the "small story that brings a personal touch to the Heresy" and shows you how the unfolding events effected those involved. My experience with the HH series is that many of the novels that are primarily Astartes POV still have sections and chapters told from human POV, whether it be Imperial Army troops present for unfolding events, civilians caught in the crossfire, Remembrancers and serfs assigned to serve the Legion, etc. They are there. You don't need to tack on a dozen or so whole novels just to share those types of stories.

 Da Boss wrote:
I think we reckon things differently then, because I only count it if the Legion gets to be the POV in the story.

No big deal though, I just would have liked a more disciplined approach to that, but it's not the biggest issue I have or anything.

That's fair. To each their own and I appreciate you taking the time to explain you position.

chaos0xomega wrote:
...no? I suppose thats an interesting perspective on it. But then it really is just marketing filler, basically, masquerading as literary work. Theres so many people who read and follow the HH series that have not and will not ever pick up the miniatures game. Its diminishing the overall quality of the effort to appease what is in actuality probably only a minority of the readership (you don't hit the NYT bestseller list without expanding massively beyond the games playerbase), and in turn alienate those who want the complete narrative but are put off by filler.

I mean, it is marketing because it's stories written about a table top wargame. Like that's objectively what BL novels are for, to market to people who haven't been to a Warhammer/GW store.
BL writers stick to a brief and do what the editors/powers that be allow them to do despite what weirdos on the internet would have you believe. But it being marketing doesn't mean it can't be good.
Not sure why it needs to be explicitly one or the other chief, nothing is ever as clear cut as that.

Yeah no worries Gert, I wanted to discuss this stuff!
Oh and it occurred to me - it's also a bit sad if you like a legion but then their books are poor quality.

I like the Blood Angels, they were my first army in 2e (like a lot of people!) and I think the whole Immortal 9th stuff from the Forgeworld books sounds really cool. I'd have loved a book about the transition from Immortal 9th horde of ascended mutants to the model legion Blood Angels of the Heresy. But I got Fear to Thread instead, which in my opinion is just not very good at all and essentially presents the Blood Angels as they are in 40K, but plus Sanguinius. Later, in the Siege with Amit you get a bit more of a look at the old Blood Angels, and it's great, but I hope you see what I mean - some Legions get the whole treatment for the Heresy with a developed and distinct culture where you can see that it is different from 40K but also linked to it, and others just don't really get that.

I do agree with the varying quality but I think that's because BL was unwilling to try new things. Most of the Heresy series came out during those really bad years for GW and I believe there was this fear that trying anything new from any new blood could tank things so instead most of the Heresy is written by the same 7 or 8 people.

But hey, tis what tis and we can't go back in time now.

Yeah, for sure. It's a pretty narrow pool of people. I would have preferred fewer, higher quality books personally, but I'm reasonably happy with what we got in the end.

I don't think it would have been easy to broaden the pool at any time - it is a pretty specific thing to have to write, and the combination of good writing skills and setting comprehension along with willingness to abide by corporate guidance means the pool of people able to do it will be fairly small.

 Gert wrote:
I do agree with the varying quality but I think that's because BL was unwilling to try new things. Most of the Heresy series came out during those really bad years for GW and I believe there was this fear that trying anything new from any new blood could tank things so instead most of the Heresy is written by the same 7 or 8 people.

But hey, tis what tis and we can't go back in time now.

There's a varying quality in the books because there's a varying quality of the writers, lol.

I deeply feel for Salamanders players who on paper are spoiled and have a surprising amount of work written on them for what is one of the less popular legions. But in practice, their HH books are written by Nick Kyme and as such they are dreadfully dull with two-dimensional characterization.

 Gert wrote:
Dan Abnett needed to be told "No" with this book.

The intent was always to bloat the story out to fill three books. So in that sense the filler served it's purpose.

Remember when people were desperately claiming that the final book really needed to be split into three for narrative reasons and because there was just too much content for one or even two books? Lol.

No?

 Da Boss wrote:
First one that comes to mind is the Night Lords, they only get a few short stories.

Iron Hands likewise mostly get short stories and to be kinda side characters for other stories.

I'd have enjoyed a story about the Imperial Army as well, though it might have been challenging and perhaps Tallarn fits that.

Then you've got Legions who get one book, pretty much, and nothing else. Which considering how long the series is, is pretty surprising to me.

I personally would have liked it if they'd continued pushing Shadrak Meduson as a replacement for Ferrus as the chapter focus. They spent some time on it and gave him a half-decent characterisation, a carefully constructed logistical background for being relevants again.

And then boom. Head lopped off by a character I barely remembered, game over. Quite disappointing.

To be fair, that was the point so if you were disappointed then the stories did their job.

 Gert wrote:
To be fair, that was the point so if you were disappointed then the stories did their job.

You can say that, but for me, the attraction was in watching how he built a respectable fighting force back up again. The logistical challenge in welding together multiple legion fragments, poor supply lines, and so on. When Meduson died, that entire strand of viewing the war died with him. Meduson himself was 'ok', it was the strategical situation that I found of interest. We just ended up moving back to 'Here's the endless waves of every other legion grinding at each other with seemingly infinite manpower and resources'.

Fair enough.

Spoilers below!
Bringing this back because there's the new book out, and the other thread is from someone asking about generalities and not spoilers.

Pretty much finished the last book now, and it didn't land for me at all.

The Horus vs Emperor fight was really bad, like how many times did we have to hear this embarrassing inner monologue from Horus after he'd punched the Emperor through space and time and the Emperor is lying there "defeated" but then, WAIT, there's a little trick, AHA!

Christ, it was rough. Some cool stuff happened, of course, like the Blood Angels rampage, but overall I really felt it was very poor. And also, the Traitor POV was basically absent from the book, which I felt was a bit crappy to all the Chaos fans out there. I felt especially that the sequence with Abaddon and the rest of the Sons of Horus who were guarding whatever it was in the big desert getting floaty super powers from Chaos because Erebus was all "But guuuuuuys, it's really coooooool!" was a negation of the arc they'd been building for Abbadon throughout the previous books, where he was turning away from Warp-Magic and wanted to win the old way. What was the point of all that if he's gonna turn around and agree with Erebus, who we know he despises? And given that was one of the only parts told from the traitor POV that wasn't Horus's internal monologue (ugh) I felt bad for Chaos fans.

It just had all the problems of the previous book extended into a way too long fight scene that had way too many fake outs. Any "twists" were rendered moot by the fact that he'd done away with any sense of place or causality in the run up, so they ALWAYS felt like Deus Ex Machina because he could basically have any character end up anywhere for any reason.

I'm not saying it was a total disaster, it's a readable book and it does end the series, but I really don't like the angle they took for it and feel it is wasted potential. Also, you could have told that story in one book, easily, and it'd have been better for it.

Did anything ever happen with Ollanius Pious (or whoever they sub in instead)?

Yeah, they basically do all versions of the Ollianus Pius legend, like Horus keeps trying to drag the Emperor to a throne so he can crown him and make him an eternal puppet, and he is continually interrupted.

First by a custodian, who he obliterates with magic eye beams.

Second by John and Oll, John blasts him with enuncia and then scarpers for contrived reasons, and then Oll stands over the fallen emperor shooting at Horus when he gets up and is obliterated instantly.

Third by Loken, who comes in and talks to Horus, and then the Emperor uses that to attack one last time.

Oh and I guess finally by the light of the Astronomicon beacon finally lighting because of the sacrifice of normal humans.

No kidding, he's just dragging the Big E toward the throne that whole time, and the Emperor keeps waking up and trying to kill him and he's like "I can't believe he tried to kill me again. Well, back to dragging him this short distance to a chair- wait, who's THIS?"

The actual sequence is spread out over multiple chapters and has a lot more overwrought description and dialogue, but that is the sequence of events.

It was not good, in my opinion.

Personally I liked this one on the whole. Big improvement over part 2 and I liked the abandon vs emperor fight, it was grand and epic and full of esoteric goings-on.

I could’ve done without the blood angels stuff, it has never been interesting to me and seemed like a distrating sideshow to the main event. It would’ve been better removed completely to help shorten this into 2 volumes. All the blood angel reaction to the death of sanguinius could have been in a separate novella or short story (like the Fury of Magnus).

Constantin was well developed and his character arc and plot line were good.

As for the perpetuals, I didn’t feel like gramnaticus’s escape was forced or particularly contrived, it seems to follow logically from all the setup so far.

I’d have liked a bit more made of the end of Oll and a little more time on the internment of the emperor on the golden throne and the immediate aftermath.

Overall I enjoyed it and thought it one of the better novels in both the siege of Terra and the larger Horus Heresy. A fitting conclusion.

 Da Boss wrote:
he's just dragging the Big E toward the throne that whole time, and the Emperor keeps waking up and trying to kill him and he's like "I can't believe he tried to kill me again. Well, back to dragging him this short distance to a chair- wait, who's THIS?"

If this doesn't become the official synopsis there is no justice in this world

I was listening to Valrak's summary of it, and the same thought kept crossing my mind -

"This is what happens when you take what should have been a simple story that's been retold numerous times with only slight variations, and are forced to pad it out beyond all reasonable expectation."

For what its worth I enjoyed all the siege of terra Im glad they 'padded' it with lots of side characters etc, felt like they did it justice as the epic grand conflict it was. If they just focused on the main fight I think they would have lost that sense of scale.
I thought ADBs book was the best, followed by solar war. Got to listen to end and death 3 again I think it will be better the second time.

I was thinking about it the other day and I think I would have genuinely preferred it if the big fights had been left off camera and the story had followed some normal people and astartes through the conflict, and it had stayed more grounded in reality.

I know that there's no way they would have done that and the general crying and wailing from people who wanted to see that stuff close up would certainly drown out the small number of people who would be happier with my idea.

But I just didn't feel it landed.

OphionAU wrote:
For what its worth I enjoyed all the siege of terra Im glad they 'padded' it with lots of side characters etc, felt like they did it justice as the epic grand conflict it was. If they just focused on the main fight I think they would have lost that sense of scale.
I thought ADBs book was the best, followed by solar war. Got to listen to end and death 3 again I think it will be better the second time.

Thanks for a useful review. I might check it out now.

OphionAU wrote:
For what its worth I enjoyed all the siege of terra Im glad they 'padded' it with lots of side characters etc, felt like they did it justice as the epic grand conflict it was. If they just focused on the main fight I think they would have lost that sense of scale.
I thought ADBs book was the best, followed by solar war. Got to listen to end and death 3 again I think it will be better the second time.

Agreed. It's not like reading those books take that long once you have them in your hand.

Btw noticed some people keep calling Grammaticus perpetual/immortal despite no longer being one. Not around in 40k(well at least permanently. He technically might pop around based on 3rd book).

What I didn't like how much it altered original duel that was written and how Horus was defeated. One might say he was defeated because he was idiot. Liked original version more.