Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
He felt the most human of reactions to his situation, bitter and passed over despite performing the same, not every human psyche can weather it gracefully. People snap.
Heh, I'm dealing with that at work right now. Suddenly I find him entirely relatable.
I'm not sure I'd agree with the characterisation, to be honest.
Perty's first problem is that he was petty and immature. He had to be the best at everything, or he didn't want to play. On his homeworld, there was one master craftsman who he used to call out to a competition once a year, and win. But then one year, that craftsman put his whole artistic soul into his sculpture - and actually created a superior end piece to Perturabo. Perturabo nodded, gave a shark smile, and conceded defeat....then came round with a hammer to trash it the next week.
He never really moved on from being that man. He was outraged that Fulgrim got the nice shiny eagle, and the Lion got to be the 'First', and Horus was the Warmaster, and so on. He considered himself to be hard done by and ill-recognised - but he never really did much that was worthy of recognition. Mortarion was the poor fecker that got slung into the really dirty combat zones, Perturabo was no worse treated than Dorn was. But he never realised that because -
Perturabo's second problem was that he wasn't actually very well equipped to be an war leader - he was just an artist playing the role. At a core level, he wanted to create. He wanted to make magnificent buildings and fine sculpture and great cities. His rages and his volatility were part of that artistic temperament. He wanted people to marvel at his creations and bask in the limelight - not to spend his time grubbing around warzones. Perturabo's deployment into such an environment where his other brothers were better suited to it (Dorn was better at sieges, Roboute better at admin, Sanguinius better at fighting, etc) left him feeling unfulfilled - which in turn left him feeling that his personal sacrifice in knuckling down to fight wars was being unrecognised. He was ultimately a tool that was put to the incorrect usage, and his resentment brewed from that bad application of his person and talents.
I... find this bizarre. To me the Iron Warriors and not the Imperial fists are the siege masters, the Imperial fists are the stalwart defenders and the fortress builders, not Perturabo. Its noted in several places in the HH books that the Iron Warriors are the finest Siege troops in the Imperium and the legion best suited to breaking static defenses, while the Imperial Fists are the legion best suited to building them.
I know Perty *wanted* to be the fortress builder, and thats why he and Rogal were like oil and water, but at his core he was a destroyer through and through. Thats part of his tragedy, is that he wanted to be the artisan and creator and builder, and under different circumstances may have been, but he was not. He was an artist, but his paintbrush was warfare, his canvas the battlefield. He made an artform of destruction, his great works were weapons and implements of death, not defenses and walls. His greatest work after all was the - which was not a defensive structure intended to protect anything, but rather a trap intended to destroy the Imperial Fists. And his legion were likewise the grim hard-nosed workhorses of the legion astartes soldiering on in the most thankless of tasks - yeah the Death Guard may have fought through toxic battlefields (which they often created themselves) - but they were often celebrated for their successes, whereas the Iron Warriors were the ones doing all the basic work that largely went unnoticed and resulted in the legion slowly being worn away through attrition over time (ironically in large part because the Iron Warriors were so successful at what they did and more reliable than other legions in their willingness to follow orders).
F.E.A.R. wrote: The Dusk Raiders were the WS before the WS if I'm not mistaken, just attacking at Dusk. Until Mortarion came and screwed everything up, making them immovable objects and with their fall to Nurgle, even bigger and harder immovable objects.
Did you read the quote I put in my post? Cos it seems like you didn't.
They weren't rapid strike manoeuvre warriors, they were just Death Guard Lite. Reunification with Mortarion and the absorption of Barbaran intake just upped the ante.
What I'm trying to say here is that Fulgrim and the EC were always better than Ferrus and the IH, even though Ferrus and the IH also sought perfection (just not the same way as Fulgrim and the EC), Fulgrim and the EC did it better. The EC remained the most powerful traitor legion in the Eye of Terror until Abaddon summoned a ship from orbit to destroy their base.
Complete tosh. The 3rd Legion was miniscule during most of the Crusade and even after Fulgrim was found it took years before they were set on independent missions away from the Luna Wolves.
By the Heresy they had grown to a capable size of around 100,000 Astartes but then a third were killed on Istvaan III.
The reason the 3rd grew to massive sizes is because of Fabius Bile and his endless experiments on Astartes geneseed. He created thousands of Astartes for the 3rd when he stopped having to stick to rules and regulations.
You are also completely taking that passage from Saturnine out of context. The Loyalist defenders at Terra were always outnumbered and outmatched but could count on the disjointed and frankly mad plans of much of the Traitor host to keep things at least a little simple.
When almost an entire Legion with their Daemon Primarch was aimed at one specific point in the defences while the forces arrayed against them were defending multiple underground insertions and a full scale assault on Lions Gate Spaceport, of course they had a good chance at success. They had the defenders outnumber and outgunned.
Dorn wasn't saying that they would have lost because the 3rd were so amazing, they would have lost because the focussed force of almost an entire Legion is a massive deal. If it had been any other Legion, Bhab would have been lost.
TheChrispyOne wrote: Peter Turbo is down there as primarchs go because of his attitude- he's a petulant, obstinate man-child... but, he's a genius/capable petulant, obstinate man-child! He also resented being used as a tool of war and wanted to make cultural things like theaters and whatnot- but he never TOLD Big E he resented this. If Emps would've let him play with the golden Legos and help build the palace, the HH would've been a lot different, as he carried the other primarchs and was the chief tactician.
I know people who will insist Perty is their favorite primarch because he's the one who had to get things done. That just does not click for me. He was more on-task during the Heresy than most of the other traitors, but that's kind of just a symptom of him... not having more interesting hooks to deal with? Like, the EC and WE going off to be all Slaaneshi and Khorney isn't helpful, but it is the result of them having clear quirks that a player might sink their teeth into. Perty and his legion's most interesting trait is literally that they're basically Dorn and his Fists, but slightly worse and way more petulant.
Maybe there's an HH noel I need to read to change my mind? I tried reading the Iron Warriors Omnibus and gave up because the Iron Warriors were just so childish and generic.
Worst primarch for me (Formerly) was Angron because of the one-note characterization of him: "I burn with Generic Rage!" But after Slave of Nuceria, I have a bit more sympathy for him being abused, tortured, forced to have the nails and killing his Mentor/Father figure, only to have Emperor swoop in and scoop him up. And then he goes back and takes the skulls of his gladiator slave "Family" and ads them to his wargear. Sheesh.
In a previous Angron thread, someone summed him up with a sentiment to the effect of, "As a story he's interesting, but as an ongoing character, he's not." That is, his background and the tough hand he was dealt are all neat enough when you first learn about them, but he doesn't really have anything interesting going on now. Like, there are interesting and tragic reasons he is the way he is, but nothing he does going forward is ever going to surprise you or offer an interesting point of view or make you root for him.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
TheChrispyOne wrote: Peter Turbo is down there as primarchs go because of his attitude- he's a petulant, obstinate man-child... but, he's a genius/capable petulant, obstinate man-child! He also resented being used as a tool of war and wanted to make cultural things like theaters and whatnot- but he never TOLD Big E he resented this. If Emps would've let him play with the golden Legos and help build the palace, the HH would've been a lot different, as he carried the other primarchs and was the chief tactician.
I know people who will insist Perty is their favorite primarch because he's the one who had to get things done. That just does not click for me. He was more on-task during the Heresy than most of the other traitors, but that's kind of just a symptom of him... not having more interesting hooks to deal with? Like, the EC and WE going off to be all Slaaneshi and Khorney isn't helpful, but it is the result of them having clear quirks that a player might sink their teeth into. Perty and his legion's most interesting trait is literally that they're basically Dorn and his Fists, but slightly worse and way more petulant.
Maybe there's an HH noel I need to read to change my mind? I tried reading the Iron Warriors Omnibus and gave up because the Iron Warriors were just so childish and generic.
Worst primarch for me (Formerly) was Angron because of the one-note characterization of him: "I burn with Generic Rage!" But after Slave of Nuceria, I have a bit more sympathy for him being abused, tortured, forced to have the nails and killing his Mentor/Father figure, only to have Emperor swoop in and scoop him up. And then he goes back and takes the skulls of his gladiator slave "Family" and ads them to his wargear. Sheesh.
In a previous Angron thread, someone summed him up with a sentiment to the effect of, "As a story he's interesting, but as an ongoing character, he's not." That is, his background and the tough hand he was dealt are all neat enough when you first learn about them, but he doesn't really have anything interesting going on now. Like, there are interesting and tragic reasons he is the way he is, but nothing he does going forward is ever going to surprise you or offer an interesting point of view or make you root for him.
As far as Perty is concerned (and Im not really read up on Siege of Terra, so I could be wrong), doesn't he basically finish breaching the walls of the Imperial Palace and go "my work here is done" and quit the field with his legion? Hard to say hes on-task...
Also, the IW are better than the Fists, lets not kid ourselves. If the IW are the best at besieging fortifications, and the Fists are the best at building and defending fortifiations, and the best siegers manage to break the defense of the best defenders, then the siegers are better than the defenders, i.e. the IW are better than the IF.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Honestly, Fists and IW are probably the two most boring legions. They can have their wall building/breaking rivalry, and they'll both still be blandest of their brothers.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Smurfs and BL are pretty boring too, but at least you have the whole "we're sort of running some relatively nice worlds," and, "We're the biggest hodge-podge of individually interesting warbands in the galaxy," angles to work with. Fists and IW are really just, "We fort good."
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
As someone who has always found forts, sieges, and trench warfare absolutely fascinating from an early age, I'm having trouble understanding how that makes them bland or uninteresting lol
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
I just love the Animatic of the IW/ Fists rivalry- "Oh, is the Iron baby gone crwy? Does he need a diaper?" "No! NO! YOU are being childish- you.."
Well, Perty's moment for me was actually feeling remorse at his sister's strangling. She basically told him to his face what we all think of him and his momentary rage outdid his loyalty and fondness for the only one who probably ever cared for him.
Anyhoo- OT, but sideways: Ferrus didn't get a lot of "Show Time" in the HH books, but teeeeechnically, neither did Horus. Book #2 he's on Davin, drinking the Kaos Koolaid so all of his actions after can't really be considered his "norm". We also lack a lot of info on Cthonia and it's culture other than the loyalty of the gang members- which is more like Yakuza vs Mafia.
I find it ironic we know more about Alpharius than Ferrus or Horus..
Wyldhunt wrote: Regarding the Iron Hands themselves, is there meant to be a thematic irony to them that I'm not picking up on? I've only read a few short stories about them (some from the Heresy, some form modern 40k), but they kind of don't live up to the cool image of them I built up in my mind.
Like, on paper, they're all about making themselves marines+ via cybernetics, and the implication, I thought, was that they're robotically logical to match. So compared to other marines, I'd expect them to be pulling off augmetically-enabled trick shots, swinging their swords a bit harder, and moving with computer-precise coordination.
In practice, it seems like their augmentations are drawbacks as often as assets (haywire effects, scrap code, etc. with minimal emphasis on actually being more capable thanks to the augments.) Plus they're kind of bull-headed. Like, there's a story where they basically insist on using the battle plan with the best statistical success rate for their situation rather than looking at the details of their situation and adapting accordingly. To the point that the main character has to fight his way through the short story just to go, "Guys. Look. Use your brains. We have to do things slightly differently or the orks will win." And it's played up as a huge revalation.
They aren't automatons and don't wish to become them, at least not during the Crusade/Heresy era that is.
In the 40k universe, the mantra of "The Flesh is Weak" originates from a conversation between Ferrus and Vulkan that is recalled by a Salamander after the Dropsite Massacre:
Spoiler:
'I have heard you say that phrase on several occasions since our first encounter. I am not sure that you really understand what it means.’
‘You may have spoken with the Gorgon but do not think to school me in the teachings on my own primarch!’
‘Perhaps I must if the lesson was not learned properly,’ Ari’i snapped back. ‘What you say, the flesh is weak, is only part of the saying. In forgetting the end you have lost the meaning. Vulkan said it in praise of Ferrus Manus, after the One Hundred and Eighty-Fourth Expedition when our Legions jointly liberated the ork-dominated worlds of the Shoxua Cluster. The fighting had been fiercer than anything we had expected. Your primarch said in jest that his arm was tired from killing so many orks, and Vulkan retorted with “the flesh is weak, but deeds endure”. It was a celebration of what they had achieved, and a remark that even primarchs can die but what they do will last beyond their lifespan. It was a message of humility, not condemnation. Flesh is weak because it knows it must come to an end, and so we must rise about the concerns of flesh and leave a legacy that others will be proud to inherit. Ferrus Manus understood that. He was a harsh master, an unforgiving ally, but he was also a maker of things – a builder, not a destroyer.’
When they lost their Primarch, the Iron Hands suffered a huge psychological blow. It preyed on their worst fears and prejudices, taking what was once praise and twisting it into hatred of humanity as a whole.
This philosophy drove the Iron Hands down a dark path all the way into the 41st Millenium where much of the Chapter, including some of it's senior Iron Fathers and captains truly believed that if they were to be pure and perfect then they had to remove their flesh and become fully machine.
They suffered the same flaws as their greatest enemies, the Emperors Children. They sought a perverted and debased form of perfection that was only prevented at great cost to the Chapter down the line.
The trauma of Istvaan led the Iron Hands to attempt to purge any emotion so they wouldn't follow the "weakness" of their Primarch who lost his discipline and logic when he charged into the Urgall Depression to take the head of Fulgrim for his betrayal. Ferrus made an error but he did so because the betrayal of Fulgrim was far more important and devastating to him than any other Primarch turning Traitor. Yes, he hated Horus, Angron and Mortarion but Fulgrim was his closest friend, ally and companion amongst their brotherhood and his betrayal broke Ferrus.
I believe that entire part of the story is probably one of my favourites and the duel between the two in Fulgrim is exceptional.
Basically, I want IH to be smart marines with cool gadgets and/or marine+ bodies. They don't seem to really deliver on either of those in practice. Maybe I need to read a different short story?
That's because they aren't that. The Iron Hands don't embrace technology in a positive manner, they do it out of disgust and revilement of their human form.
They don't see technology as an asset to enhance themselves, they see it as a cure for the perceived weakness of the flesh and the emotions that come with that.
Their very creed and culture is actually entirely opposed to the that of their Primarch who practiced and employed a balance of rage, discipline and logic that made the Xth Legion one of the most effective Legions during the Crusade.
I think this sums up what makes IH interesting. Super soldiers dealing with trauma in the worst possible way, like a reverse tin man from Wizard of Oz. Because, remember, the main function of the HH novels should be to explore exactly how we arrived at the grimdark future. These primarchs should be failures, loyal and traitor.
Also, Gert's description, I think, is best shown in the book Shattered Legions and makes it one of my favorites.
Ask yourself: have you rated a gallery image today?
This is me spit-balling here, buuuut it seems the unliked Primarchs all suffer from "Anti-Shojo" syndrome as I'm calling it. Y'know, the major theme in Japanese Boy's Manga is that of "I have to help/ protect X for other's sake." Even if there is a more self-serving goal, like in Air Gear where MC wants to be the best skater, the MC will still reach out to others and get their help. Even if it's along the lines of "I lost to you now, but wait until I'm at my full potential."
Well; Angron, Perturabo, and Kurze all either don't care or hate their legion. Mr. Angry wallows in scorn because his legion is not his gladiator family, Perty just has that mentality of using others as tools, and Space Batman saw his legion were the same gangers and criminal from Nostromo. Ferrus, on the other hand, had some comradeship with the sons of Medusa. It was mostly the human regiments that he screwed over, using them like pawns for the hammer and anvil tactics he loved. I'm pretty sure that the various stages of grief the Iron hands shttered forces went through shows that they cared for their primarch. It wasn't the psyker-infused shockwave that persists in Blood Angels today, but y'know.. I'm also sure once Kurze was dead more than a few of the Night Lords went "Good riddance!"
moment for me was actually feeling remorse at his sister's strangling. She basically told him to his face what we all think of him and his momentary rage outdid his loyalty and fondness for the only one who probably ever cared for him.
