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Tyranid weaponry basically gets a pass because its truly outside of the normal scope of firearms. You squirt a bug filled with acid and whose sole purpose is to chomp on something, and no one disputes that bad things will happen.

The issue with "guns" is things like no ejector ports, or ejecting casings that are 1/10 the diameter of the bore (and rimmed!) that strains credulity.

Though borrowing heavily from "Aliens," GW actually brought something interesting and new to the table when it came to the Nids.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
I think I was thinking of devourers. When I read the 3rd(?) edition codex, iirc the Living Ammunition rule was rerolls to-wound. Which made sense to me as the little gribblies basically eating their way towards a second (hopefully more lethal) location if their initial impact/early burrowing didn't kill the target.

See: Any moment in television where a character survives because the bullet was a smidge to the left. Well, these bullets eat their way a smidge to the right.

But I suppose that could just be burrowing in a random direction rather than landing in a flakk jacket and actively pointing yourself towards flesh.

Canonically I think they follow the nervous system and burrow to the brain. But someone should double check me on that.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Canonically I think they follow the nervous system and burrow to the brain. But someone should double check me on that.

Of course they do. Devouring your viscera is bad, but eating your brain - that's horrific!

The “modern” boltguns we see in the video games and the tabletop do have barrels. They just aren’t very long to real world standards. With that being said, there are absolutely short barreled rifles in real life depending on the caliber. Marching cartridge, velocity, powder burn rate and barrel length is a science in the real world. Theres a lot more to it but I don’t feel like typing a book on my phone.

The bolt has an initial charge to get the gun to fire the projectile out of the barrel, then the gyro kicks in mid-flight so it doesn’t need a 20 inch barrel to gain velocity and accuracy since the bolt’s own rocket fuel does it and stabilizes it in flight. Theres also lore that the gyro activates in the Boltgun and the bolt doesn’t have an initial cartridge but nonetheless, same explanation as to why a long barrel wouldn’t be needed.

Tyranid bug ammo is definitely unpleasant. But I think that assuming the bug can't find some squishy bit to bite within a second or two you are safe as it dies. So its very RNG, better hope it didn't hit close to a joint or catch up in your clothing.

 Hellebore wrote:
The scale has always been given as 0.75 calibre.

There have been a few instances where 0.98 has been given (I think the space marine game has that).

A common misunderstanding a lot of people get when reading. The Heavy Bolter is .98/1 Inch. Regular bolters are .75cal.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tyranid bug ammo is definitely unpleasant. But I think that assuming the bug can't find some squishy bit to bite within a second or two you are safe as it dies. So its very RNG, better hope it didn't hit close to a joint or catch up in your clothing.

 Hellebore wrote:
The scale has always been given as 0.75 calibre.

There have been a few instances where 0.98 has been given (I think the space marine game has that).

A common misunderstanding a lot of people get when reading. The Heavy Bolter is .98/1 Inch. Regular bolters are .75cal.

Have you got an actual quote for a heavy bolter calibre because I only see that claimed as conventional wisdom, no one bothers to actually put a picture up of it.


On the other hand, as I said, the space marine game lists the bolter as .998. now I think that's a mistake and the more consistent size for all bolters including human ones, is 0.75.

But they did in fact, do that.

I think the .998 is the model number (year number) not the calibre.

Tygre wrote:
I think the .998 is the model number (year number) not the calibre.

I checked around, and the internets doesn't say when the Godwyn pattern was found/ became standard. But there are .75 and .998 varieties, .998 being "the latest"- Buuuut really it's the Cawl pattern bolter, which I assume is bigger due to Primaris model size.

Certainly in the dim and distant past bolts were caseless (no description given of spent cartridges and the like), but the artists clearly struggled with the concept, and rule of cool won the day. Bolt guns were initially pretty much recoil-free, but that got retconned out too.

From Ian Watson's 'Harlequin' -

"Jaq sniffed the sharp nitric aftermath of propellant which had ignited after each bolt flew from the muzzle.
'Noisy,' said Meh'lindi.
Yes, noisy. Yet with hardly any recoil. RAARK,the gun would utter with each squeeze of the trigger. Ithardly bucked at all in one's hand. With a plosive pop it would ejaculate a bolt. With a flaring swish, that bolt would ignite and accelerate away. Then there would come the thud of impact, followed by the blast of detonation.
RAARK-pop-SWOOSH-thud-CRUMP: this was the lino of a bolt gun."

 farmersboy wrote:
Certainly in the dim and distant past bolts were caseless (no description given of spent cartridges and the like), but the artists clearly struggled with the concept, and rule of cool won the day. Bolt guns were initially pretty much recoil-free, but that got retconned out too.

From Ian Watson's 'Harlequin' -

"Jaq sniffed the sharp nitric aftermath of propellant which had ignited after each bolt flew from the muzzle.
'Noisy,' said Meh'lindi.
Yes, noisy. Yet with hardly any recoil. RAARK,the gun would utter with each squeeze of the trigger. Ithardly bucked at all in one's hand. With a plosive pop it would ejaculate a bolt. With a flaring swish, that bolt would ignite and accelerate away. Then there would come the thud of impact, followed by the blast of detonation.
RAARK-pop-SWOOSH-thud-CRUMP: this was the lino of a bolt gun."

They were never described as caseless - using the argument that they were never NOT described as caseless is ridiculous.

In 2nd ed they specifically described autoguns as caseless yet did not for bolters. If you're going to the trouble of doing that for some weapons it's a stretch to say others were when you aren't saying it. The bolter still had its initial propellant then the rocket igniting, which is exactly how the cased version works.

Hellebore has the right of it.

I commented in the early posts, having checked my Rogue Trader era books that there’s no mention of Bolters using caseless ammo.

Somewhere in my dusty pile of now historical sources I’ve even got some, maybe all, the rules for Confrontation, a WD serialised precursor to Necromunda.

I’ll pick through them tomorrow when I’m not brain drained from work and my Friday beers. See, whilst the same era as Rogue Trader, it contained extra crunchy details. For instance, Lasweapons all using the same power packs, with the yield of the weapon dictating how many shots you’d get from a single power pack - or indeed multiple power packs (for instance, a Lascannon took six power packs for a single shot, if memory serves.

I’ll also check my 2nd Ed Wargear Book.

No, not for a WeLl AcTuAlLy flex. But to help try to track and trace where the idea of Bolters being caseless might’ve first arose.

For the previous thread that I posted a link to I skimmed through RT, the Compendium and the 3 2nd edition books, rules. Background and wargear and didn’t find anything.

Keen to see if you turn something up

It's funny how accurate the OCIW is as a real world boltgun, especially since the OCIW was a knowingly created warcrime.

"Specifically, by deliberately designing the 20 mm grenade with the intent of shooting enemy personnel wearing body armor using an explosive projectile, the 20 mm HEDP round is thus an "exploding bullet", which are illegal for military use under the Law of War."

Seeing as how 100% of 40k is a warcrime, it's a funny comparison

Its illegal for bullets under 20mm to deform or explode to cause extra damage. The idea is you do not have kill your opponent, being able to prevent them fighting back is enough. It is illegal in the Geneva Convention to cause unnecessary suffering.

If 20mm and above is illegal against infantry then how come artillery still exists. 155mm is bigger than 20mm after all.

According to my negligible time googling, it's because artillery shells are exempt

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule78

Exploding Bullets are illegal. They made the semantic mistake of calling the 20mm attachment a "Rifle" instead of a Grenade Launcher. If they'd called it a grenade launcher, it would have been legal in war. But it was concieved, greenlit, and built into production, under extremely illegal/ignorant pretenses.

And everybody still uses them because they're only "illegal" for the losing side.

#rulesofwarRdumb

The reason I saw for the OICW to be illegal is that exploding bullets are classified as weighting 400 grams or less, if memory serves, if it's over that, it's considered a grenade and so on, the OICW munition was under that 400g threshold.

My source for that is a Youtube vid that I can't find again, admittedly, so take with a grain of salt.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


The relatively simple Fleshborer of course launches a voracious beetle, which expends its brief life chewing through whatever it impacts. Against exposed body parts, that’s horrific damage. But, you’re probably safe if if the first volley hits a flak jacket. Again, it’s the weak points you need to worry about.

You are thinking about the devourer. The fleshborer usually had some degree of armor penetration, it used to be AP5 in classic 40k and it had AP-1 in 9th.

The downsides of the fleshborer is being short ranged and a low firing rate. But if it hits you are likely dead unless you have carapace or better armor.

They were never described as caseless - using the argument that they were never NOT described as caseless is ridiculous.

In 2nd ed they specifically described autoguns as caseless yet did not for bolters. If you're going to the trouble of doing that for some weapons it's a stretch to say others were when you aren't saying it. The bolter still had its initial propellant then the rocket igniting, which is exactly how the cased version works.

I do remember that all the early artwork never showed cartridges being ejected, and the bolters didn't have ejection ports. Unfortunately I haven't kept all my old issues of WD from back in the day (36+ years ago). Bolt rounds don't need a cartridge, as they are miniature rockets (initially based on the real world Gyrojet round).

However, like everything else in W40K, it all depends on the author/artist, and I guess most artists assumed there needed to be empty cases spewing forth.

Bolters nowadays also have an initial propellant charge to get around the inherent issues with the gyrojet rounds (they are basically crap because very low muzzle velocities).

 Tyran wrote:
Bolters nowadays also have an initial propellant charge to get around the inherent issues with the gyrojet rounds (they are basically crap because very low muzzle velocities).

Always have done, going back to Rogue Trader.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


The relatively simple Fleshborer of course launches a voracious beetle, which expends its brief life chewing through whatever it impacts. Against exposed body parts, that’s horrific damage. But, you’re probably safe if if the first volley hits a flak jacket. Again, it’s the weak points you need to worry about.

You are thinking about the devourer. The fleshborer usually had some degree of armor penetration, it used to be AP5 in classic 40k and it had AP-1 in 9th.

The downsides of the fleshborer is being short ranged and a low firing rate. But if it hits you are likely dead unless you have carapace or better armor.

I guess I’m thinking in a different way. Which isn’t to say “therefore you am the wrongs”. Instead, I look at AP values as how adept a given shot is at punching through the weakspots. Because on stuff like Power Armour? Even the joints are armoured, just to a necessarily lesser degree. And the Strength I see as its chance of causing a grievous or crippling wound.

And so in my head canon, a flak jacket can stop pretty much any anti-infantry round (or at least reduce an impact to non-lethal). But. Stuff like Bolters, Fleshborers etc just don’t do flesh wounds, by their very nature should they find a way past your armour? You’re getting gibbed.

 farmersboy wrote:
However, like everything else in W40K, it all depends on the author/artist, and I guess most artists assumed there needed to be empty cases spewing forth.

On the earlier thread it was noted that boltguns from 2nd ed. did not have ejection ports but that subsequent artwork had rimmed casings being ejected that were also completely out of scale.

The core aesthetic was one of cartoonishly large compact SMGs.

Interesting to note that the guns in Chronicles of Riddick look right out of 40k. The whole Chaos Marine vs IG thing was in play, even down to the lasguns. Fun, underrated film.

Smg762 wrote:
Hi all, I had some questions about 40k lore.. specifically the workings of guns.

1) many bolt pistols appear to have no barrel or chamber - just a muzzle brake or flash hider. How to they expect to stabilise or even propel the rounds?

2) even with AP ammo, how can bolts penetrate anything....being rocket propelled and huge caliber surely they have almost no velocity

3) how can some of the larger marines change or carry magazines, and surely once they've expended the 15 or so rounds, the gun is useless....especially for terminators or chainsword weilders

4) how does power armour hold up against bolt guns, and what about lasguns or shuriken guns

1) Magic!

2) They are not rocket propelled, they are shot out like normal bullets. I always assumed that the "rocket" is really a type of base bleed to prevent velocity loss at greater distances.

3) Magic! Or alternatively, those giant pauldrons act as ammunition storage.

4) Depends on the writer.

 AldarionTelcontar wrote:


2) They are not rocket propelled, they are shot out like normal bullets. I always assumed that the "rocket" is really a type of base bleed to prevent velocity loss at greater distances.

They most definitely are rocket propelled.

They also shoot out like normal bullets. Basically, they are two stage rockets. An initial charge like a normal gun, then a rocket booster to continue acceleration.

Bipropellant ahoy! Pop raaark bang!

 Grey Templar wrote:

 AldarionTelcontar wrote:


2) They are not rocket propelled, they are shot out like normal bullets. I always assumed that the "rocket" is really a type of base bleed to prevent velocity loss at greater distances.

They most definitely are rocket propelled.

They also shoot out like normal bullets. Basically, they are two stage rockets. An initial charge like a normal gun, then a rocket booster to continue acceleration.

OK, thanks.

 Hellebore wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tyranid bug ammo is definitely unpleasant. But I think that assuming the bug can't find some squishy bit to bite within a second or two you are safe as it dies. So its very RNG, better hope it didn't hit close to a joint or catch up in your clothing.

 Hellebore wrote:
The scale has always been given as 0.75 calibre.

There have been a few instances where 0.98 has been given (I think the space marine game has that).

A common misunderstanding a lot of people get when reading. The Heavy Bolter is .98/1 Inch. Regular bolters are .75cal.

Have you got an actual quote for a heavy bolter calibre because I only see that claimed as conventional wisdom, no one bothers to actually put a picture up of it.


On the other hand, as I said, the space marine game lists the bolter as .998. now I think that's a mistake and the more consistent size for all bolters including human ones, is 0.75.

But they did in fact, do that.

The only stated example I can think of for a heavy bolter is the pre-Heresy pattern that is carried on the shoulder. HH book 1: Betrayal states it is 0.75 calibre, so same as the standard bolter calibre in the 41st Millennium.


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Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 farmersboy wrote:
However, like everything else in W40K, it all depends on the author/artist, and I guess most artists assumed there needed to be empty cases spewing forth.

The core aesthetic was one of cartoonishly large compact SMGs.

Not really sure why this is surprising? Cartoonishly large SMGs used by cartoonishly large super-soldier special forces makes a lot of sense.

Space Marines are close-range shock troops, so scaled-up SMGs are perfect. The fact that they use SMGs in a musket calibre is funny but shouldn't be too much of an issue for super soldiers wearing powered exoskeletons with autostabilisers. Thinking about it, the line-trooper equivalent would be to give every Marine a heavy stubber (basically a LMG), but they would loose mobility.

Automatic weapons using rimmed cartridges is funny, but real-life automatic, magazine-fed firearms have been made that successfully fired rimmed cartridges reliably (like the Bren). It isn't ideal, but not an insurmountable engineering challenge.

The reason long(er) barrels are needed now on firearms is so that all of the powder can burn and the projectile can reach velocity while the gun remains intact. If we imagine super-science powder that can burn faster and super-science barrels that can take far greater pressures, and super-science projectiles that can stay intact at those pressures, then velocity is not the problem. Twist rate is also not a problem, look at the new 6.8 BLK cartridge from Q, much much faster twist rates to stabalize bullets, but the bullet has to be of a certain construction to not fly apart at those rotational speeds.

Yeah, you can reduce the length needed to stablize the bullet. And since bolters seem to have 5 inch-ish barrels, if you adjust for distortion in the scale, that is well within what could be done with even modern powders.