Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Old Man Grotsnik and Underread, you both give the energy of "guy who hasn't kept up with the background since 3rd edition, and refuses to update the headcanon they crafted in 2001"
If you want a direct homework assignment, that's easy: read the novel The Devastation of Baal.
I've lost count of the questionable assertions/suggestions you've each introduced in this thread, but they include:
- that the Hivemind is not a singular intelligence
- that the Imperium evacuates planets (lol)
- that Tyranid evolution is random
- that hive beasts always have some level of independence and cannot be directly "puppeted" by the Hivemind
- that the Hivemind "loses DNA"
I realize that's it's extremely easy to just go, "if you disagree show me a quotation," but that reminds me of someone who'd say something like, "I personally don't believe that vaccines work, but if you disagree you can show me a source." You've apparently missed two decades of background development -- it's going to be hard for anyone to fill you in with a single quotation, and it's your responsibility to catch up if you desire accuracy.
I will post one section from the aforementioned novel, partly because it indirectly addresses some of the ideas in the thread, but mostly because it's one of the coolest parts in the book (which is unfortunately three quarters bolter porn, as it goes).
The lictor looked like a creature unto itself. It moved as a solitary organism. It had operated on its own for years, far away from the hive fleet. But it was not apart from the hive mind. That was the mistake the prey always made. Even at this corpuscular level, it was a mistake to see the lictor as a lictor, one of millions; there were not many, there was one. The lictor was the lictor. Every iteration was a copy, better than perfect for aeons of improvement, party to the actions, mistakes and successes of every other lictor that had come before. Welded to the very genes of its being were untold millions of years of experience. And it was on Baal just as it was simultaneously on a thousand other worlds throughout the galaxy.
It put ancient lessons into action. Sight was the easiest sense to fool. The lictor moved at night, when it was harder to see. Chromatic microscales lent it near perfect chameleonic ability even in the full light of day. Deformable organ clusters embedded in its skin allowed it to change its shape somewhat, enabling it to take on the rough texture of stone, or mimic fronds of vegetation. Smell was a more primal sense, harder to deceive because of it. The lictor managed that too. It had virtually no scent. Only when it flooded the air with pheromone trails to guide its kin beasts did its emissions become noticeable. By then it was too late. Most prey could hear, so it made no sound when it moved. Special arrangements of hairs baffled the whisper of its limbs moving over one another.
More esoteric senses were equally well accounted for. Its electromagnetic profile was minimal. Its brain case was shielded by internal bone structures against energy leakage. The nerves in its body were similarly cloaked. Its hooves were shaped to make the minimum of vibration, and although it could not entirely stop the perturbation of the air made by its movements, its chitinous plates were fluted in precise molecular, fractal patterns to minimise its wake. It gave off no heat. It shed no cells unless damaged. Its psychic link with the hive mind was like spider silk, gossamer thin, strong, and almost impossible to detect.
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor’s advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the others. Its genetic structure was incredibly complex. Within every cell was billions of years’ worth of adaptation, culled from every lictor, coiled up one over the other. Anything useful to its role, no matter how inconsequential seeming, it retained forever.
Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child’s play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talent
bonus:
In the [Swarm Lord's] eyes glimmered an ancient and powerful intellect. As old as he was, Dante felt like a newborn babe compared to the intelligence staring at him through that unblinking gaze. He sensed that there were two beings looking at him. The monster, and the being that controlled it. They were separate, yet one. A sense of crushing psychic might emanated from it, so great its grasp encompassed galaxies. There was sophistication there, and terrifying intelligence, but all were outweighed by its bottomless, eternal hunger.
For the moment that the man and the monster stared into one another’s souls, Dante pitied it. The hunger of the hive mind made the Red Thirst trivial by comparison.
Bringing up devastation of Baal is interesting, but this offensive tone hasn't got its place here, may I remind you.
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
BlaxicanX wrote: Starving them out worked as a tactic but the problem is that it was a half-measure. Kryptman destroyed all those planets to deny the Tyranids biomass, but the fleet was still allowed to travel relatively unmolested from system to system.
The fleet may have travelled unmolested, but resources still had to be expended to create the forces that landed. That's not free. Tyranids can form endless numbers of huge swarms because the material lost in creating the swarms will be recovered by the harvesting operations. If huge swarms are created, but nothing is recovered to replace the material used to create the swarms, the fleet gets starved. It's like an investor investing money in various projects. If none of those projects produce a return, he'll run out of money. What Kryptmann was doing was essentially the same thing to the Hive Fleet. If this went on for long enough, the fleet would eventually need to start cannibalizing itself in order to create landing forces
BlaxicanX wrote: Starving them out worked as a tactic but the problem is that it was a half-measure. Kryptman destroyed all those planets to deny the Tyranids biomass, but the fleet was still allowed to travel relatively unmolested from system to system. In theory, the trick would be to not only deprive them of biomass through scorched earth tactics, but to also harry them the entire way. Both the Tau and the Eldar have been able to go toe-to-toe with the Tyranids in fleet battles- in fact one of the things that kept Tau in the game against Gorgon is that their fleet despite being outnumbered was able to consisently destroy Narvhals and slow down the Hive Fleet's advance to the point that the Tau could maneuver reinforcements and evacuations around contested systems.Since the win condition for Tyranids is getting to a planet to harness its resources, it stands to reason that strategically, hit and run attacks on a traveling Hive Fleet would be devstating. If you don't allow your forces to engage in a pitched battle with the Tyranids (and you have literally infinite space to maneuver) then the Hive Fleet's decisions are to either break off from pushing toward a planet and commit to chasing down your harrying fleet, or ignore them and let itself get whittled down.
Almost all of the advantages that Tyranids have in terrestial combat don't really apply in void warfare. The only hiccup is Shadow making long-range coordination difficult, but I don't really buy that it makes hive fleets undetecable. To the contrary, I imagine that the shadow is probably fairly easy to distinguish by astropaths who are outside of it. When gazing at the warp how do you not notice the utterly massive, moving black hole?
imo the biggest reason that the Imperium struggles against the Tyranids is because of their military doctrine. The Imperium always wants to form either an unstoppable hammer or an unbreakable wall- both strategies play right into the Tyranids' hands.
I definitely agree with the idea that harassing the hive fleet while it's in transit seems like the ideal way to go. Make it expend energy during the whole flight.
I don't know how easy it is to find and get to the fleet itself though. Seeing the Shadow should be easy. But locating the actual fleet might still be tricky because the Shadow itself is so vast. My understanding is that it extends thousands of light years out from the fleet. Using this was one of the strategies of the Leviathan invasion. It split into two branches and the Shadow in the Warp stretched between them, "cutting off an enourmous section of Imperial space" as well as "making it impossible to navigate through the Warp toward the beleagured systems." If the Shadow is measured in interstellar distances, and it also makes Imperial interstellar travel hazardous or impossible, that's a hefty problem to overcome.
But we do know that finding and boarding vessels in hibernation has happened too. Maybe in hibernation the Shadow isn't as active? Or maybe these are small splinter fleets where the Shadow isn't as potent in the first place, and the boarding parties have been patiently slow-intercepting them under non-Warp travel after dangerous Warp navigation into the outskirts of fainter Shadow? Reconciling the various descriptions of the seems to take a lot of guesswork.
Could a give fleet escape a black hole? Lure them into a heavily populated system that can put up some resistance and once the hive fleet is dug into the conflict collapse the star
40K does have ways and means of sending stars Nova, which is gonna be a bad time for anyone in that solar system.
But, the heavens are a pretty precise dance because of how gravity works. Remove an element, or replace it with a black hole? And you’re going to have consequences. Really pretty major ones.
Yes, that would likely wreck a Hive Fleet as readily as any other fleet. But like just blowing up planets they’re trying to feed on (Kryptmaaaaaaaaaaannn!), you need to consider the impact of doing so on your own supply web.
And here’s another thought. The Imperium isn’t a cohesive area. It has worlds and system scattered across the galaxy, usually the result of known, stable warp routes. Yet there may be, and almost certainly are, entirely unknown and unexplored systems out there.
As Tyranids do not need to prey on advanced worlds? If there’s a system the Imperium can’t get to, how do you stop the Hive Fleet stopping there for its picnic? If it had a populated world, that’s fresh biomass to replace at least some losses in relative peace and quiet,
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Interesting how lictors have gone from excellent stealth operatives that are difficult but possible to detect at short range (even having rules where psykers and auspexes could detect them within 6" on the tabletop) to whatever is in that passage.
Also, this made me laugh:
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor’s advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the others. Its genetic structure was incredibly complex. Within every cell was billions of years’ worth of adaptation, culled from every lictor, coiled up one over the other. Anything useful to its role, no matter how inconsequential seeming, it retained forever.
Lictors are not like natural creatures, instead they *describes natural evolution*
Traits that are kept because they are useful to the niche occupied by an organism is entirely consistent with evolution. Clearly the lictor doesn't keep traits that are otherwise known to the Hive Mind that are not useful to its role like wings or being the size of a biotitan... The only artificial aspect is that the lictor's niche is a role defined by the Hive Mind rather than in a naturally occurring ecosystem. It is essentially selective breeding.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Necrons could he the ones to actually harass the hive fleet if they choose so. After all, they don't rely at all on warp drive, so they could use teleporting techs and dolmen gates to get in the way of hive fleets and snap away in time, repeating the processe all over the course the fleet travels along. Tau don't need the warp either but not having access to the necron's teleporting drives makes them simply too slow to redeploy quickly enough I suppose.
As stated above the crowns are pretty much THE Tyranid counter anyway.
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
The Shadow is usually described as being difficult to detect up until the point it is over you. Arguably it is simply too big for a mortal navigator or psyker to make sense of it, with Hive Fleets usually being detected only until someone high enough in the command chain realizes there are entire sectors missing.
Seems the most you can hope for is to keep track as best you can of systems going silent. From there, you can get some idea of where they’ve been, and make an educated guess as to where they’re going.
Of course….a super high risk solution might be to allow a Genestealer Cult to get its uprising out the way, getting a Hive Fleet there, then knacking the planet.
It’s still sacrificing a planet though, so not exactly a good plan.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
The worst part in my opinion is that considering the area becomes hard to navigate as a whole, even if you know approximately where you need to go, the part where you're supposed to head there will be catastrophicly difficult for any warp travelling fleet such as that of the imperium. And if the covered area is that big - approximating and then continuing onwards sunlight speed isn't really an option to truly catch the fleet I suppose.
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
mrFickle wrote: Could a give fleet escape a black hole? Lure them into a heavily populated system that can put up some resistance and once the hive fleet is dug into the conflict collapse the star
I'm no expert, but my understanding is that suddenly collapsing a star into a black hole wouldn't change anything about the magnitude of gravity exerted on an object or fleet already in orbit around said star, because the amount of mass in the star/black hole stays the same.
If you somehow magically collapsed the sun into a black hole, the amount of gravity experienced by the earth wouldn't change. But there would be no sunlight, so any ecosystem would collapse. The only effect on the earths orbit would be from the sudden lack of the solar wind and photon bombardment gently pushing outward under normal circumstances.
Now if the method of turning the sun into a black hole was to somehow multiply its mass by orders of magnitude, then yeah, then you have something. But just converting the existing mass into a black hole means any fleet could fly away normally.*
*unless it's a "solar sail" powered fleet in which case it's trapped in orbit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haighus wrote: Interesting how lictors have gone from excellent stealth operatives that are difficult but possible to detect at short range (even having rules where psykers and auspexes could detect them within 6" on the tabletop) to whatever is in that passage.
Take with grain of salt imo. Marines in lore are running at 80 kph or whatever, despite being no faster than a human on the tabletop. (And slower than Eldar, who must be running around at 140 kph then?) The written BL lore often hyperbolizes to ridiculous levels.
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor’s advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the others. Its genetic structure was incredibly complex. Within every cell was billions of years’ worth of adaptation, culled from every lictor, coiled up one over the other. Anything useful to its role, no matter how inconsequential seeming, it retained forever.
Lictors are not like natural creatures, instead they *describes natural evolution*
Traits that are kept because they are useful to the niche occupied by an organism is entirely consistent with evolution. Clearly the lictor doesn't keep traits that are otherwise known to the Hive Mind that are not useful to its role like wings or being the size of a biotitan... The only artificial aspect is that the lictor's niche is a role defined by the Hive Mind rather than in a naturally occurring ecosystem. It is essentially selective breeding.
Yeah I chuckled a bit too. But there is something to be said for a directed evolution across far more environments than any natural species would adapt and survive in, while purposefully retaining all the useful bits of each evolutionary success. So it's still slightly different than naturally occuring evolution in a notably important way. A tyranid creature is simultaneously adapting to a thousand biomes againt a million opponents and sharing all of that infofmation accross every entity in real time, rather than just locally over generational time spans.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2024/02/26 15:54:23
The big difference bewteen Tyranid evolution and natural evolution is that natural evolution cannot make leaps in capabilities. Pretty much every change needs to both gradual but also useful, which is why there is stuff natural evolution cannot do, like laser zebras.
All the mass of a collapsed black star goes into the singularity, I believe, but the event horizon can span a much greater distance. There is a point around a black hole where the pull is so strong that even light can’t escape.
Also I think a collapsing star would do a fair bit of damage on its own.
It may have negative consequences for other parts of the galaxy but that’s exactly the kind of ingorance that the imperium of man has about it’s science and tech
mrFickle wrote: All the mass of a collapsed black star goes into the singularity, I believe, but the event horizon can span a much greater distance. There is a point around a black hole where the pull is so strong that even light can’t escape.
Also I think a collapsing star would do a fair bit of damage on its own.
It may have negative consequences for other parts of the galaxy but that’s exactly the kind of ingorance that the imperium of man has about it’s science and tech
If no mass is added when collapsing the star into a black hole, the event horizon will be very close to the black hole and the solar system will have the exact same gravity it had before. As mentioned, the only effect on the wider system will be the loss of solar light. Well, and the effects of whatever stupendous process was used to collapse the star
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Tyran wrote: Actually because a black hole rips and distorts space time (and everything in it), actually it would be longer within a black hole.
Not that anyone outside would notice.
Oh is that the infinite-stretch thing? I thought things would crumple up before that happens, in the same way that a neutron star is not a black hole, but the atomic bonds have already been smashed.
Tyran wrote: The big difference bewteen Tyranid evolution and natural evolution is that natural evolution cannot make leaps in capabilities. Pretty much every change needs to both gradual but also useful, which is why there is stuff natural evolution cannot do, like laser zebras.
Tyranids meanwhile can go into space brrrrr.
You refer to what are called local fitness peaks. If an organism reaches a peak, as a species it can find itself unable to go down since that decreases fitness, even though there might be a higher fitness peak elsewhere. That is why a laser zebra cannot naturally evolve. A laser zebra might have increased fitness in surviving predators but anything short of a functioning laser would be a fitness decrease as it is additional weight and metabolic energy expended on growing something non-functional.
Tyranids however are anything but naturally evolved. Most Tyranids do not reproduce and many cannot even eat anything that is not already pre-digested. The Hive Mind is free to stack on as many adaptations as desired onto a design without having to pay attention to considerations of reproductive fitness or long term survival, so long as it fits the role envisaged for it and at a reasonable cost. At some level cost does seem to be a factor considered as the Hive Mind seems to still run standard Termagants despite being able to make them better, but this calculus is done at a far higher level and scale than on the level of individual organisms.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/02/26 23:52:54
Tyran wrote: The big difference bewteen Tyranid evolution and natural evolution is that natural evolution cannot make leaps in capabilities. Pretty much every change needs to both gradual but also useful, which is why there is stuff natural evolution cannot do, like laser zebras.
Tyranids meanwhile can go into space brrrrr.
You refer to what are called local fitness peaks. If an organism reaches a peak, as a species it can find itself unable to go down since that decreases fitness, even though there might be a higher fitness peak elsewhere. That is why a laser zebra cannot naturally evolve. A laser zebra might have increased fitness in surviving predators but anything short of a functioning laser would be a fitness decrease as it is additional weight and metabolic energy expended on growing something non-functional.
Tyranids however are anything but naturally evolved. Most Tyranids do not reproduce and many cannot even eat anything that is not already pre-digested. The Hive Mind is free to stack on as many adaptations as desired onto a design without having to pay attention to considerations of reproductive fitness or long term survival, so long as it fits the role envisaged for it and at a reasonable cost. At some level cost does seem to be a factor considered as the Hive Mind seems to still run standard Termagants despite being able to make them better, but this calculus is done at a far higher level and scale than on the level of individual organisms.
Plus, not all Tyranid adaptations are necessarily that creatures genetics. Bioplasma for instance could be achieved via a parasite organism added to the main creature. Whilst we might immediately think Pyrovore, any gun wielding Tyranid is a similar amalgam of creatures, the Fleshborer or what have you not being a “natural” part of its bearer, rather a separate beastie implanted, grafted or grown on the host.
It’s all about the minimum expenditure of resources. There’s little to gain by churning out top spec Termagants, with the best guns, chitin resistant to Pulse weapons and extra stabby hooves until that combination seems the appropriate response. So you send in the first wave of relatively basic bugs to see what the enemy is packing, and then specialise from there. In short, the more specialised the bug, the more resource intensive it is to spawn. If you can overwhelm the prey without specialisation? Do that first.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Does the Shadow in the Warp affect warp-rift-based weapons? Imperial Vortex weapons and Eldar Wraith and Distortion weapons also provide a route to destroy stuff with no residue by dropping it into the warp. That is equivalent to the Necron disintegration route.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
Flinty wrote: Does the Shadow in the Warp affect warp-rift-based weapons? Imperial Vortex weapons and Eldar Wraith and Distortion weapons also provide a route to destroy stuff with no residue by dropping it into the warp. That is equivalent to the Necron disintegration route.
I've never seen anything to suggest they don't work.
Tyran wrote: The big difference bewteen Tyranid evolution and natural evolution is that natural evolution cannot make leaps in capabilities. Pretty much every change needs to both gradual but also useful, which is why there is stuff natural evolution cannot do, like laser zebras.
Tyranids meanwhile can go into space brrrrr.
You refer to what are called local fitness peaks. If an organism reaches a peak, as a species it can find itself unable to go down since that decreases fitness, even though there might be a higher fitness peak elsewhere. That is why a laser zebra cannot naturally evolve. A laser zebra might have increased fitness in surviving predators but anything short of a functioning laser would be a fitness decrease as it is additional weight and metabolic energy expended on growing something non-functional.
Tyranids however are anything but naturally evolved. Most Tyranids do not reproduce and many cannot even eat anything that is not already pre-digested. The Hive Mind is free to stack on as many adaptations as desired onto a design without having to pay attention to considerations of reproductive fitness or long term survival, so long as it fits the role envisaged for it and at a reasonable cost. At some level cost does seem to be a factor considered as the Hive Mind seems to still run standard Termagants despite being able to make them better, but this calculus is done at a far higher level and scale than on the level of individual organisms.
Well, if you consider Tyranids to be one giant organism and individual Tyranids to be akin to cells, suddenly it looks a whole lot more natural again, with natural selection being felt across the entire Tyranid species and specific traits being selected in specific circumstances through something more akin to epigenetic triggers. A red blood cell also cannot reproduce, is monotasked, and dependent on other cells for survival (red blood cells can only use glucose for energy). It is short lived and recycled, typically at ~120 days. I don't think that is so different to a gaunt.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/02/27 16:06:31
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Although recent Tyranid codexes have noted that Tyranid stuff can survive being dropped into the warp just fine, so warp-rift-based weapons don't destroy nids, just make it someone's else problem (which can get hilarius if you subscribe to the multiversal teories regarding the warp).
There's nothing in a Tyranid for a Warp Demon to feed on. Warp Demons want your emotions and so forth - Tyranids have nothing. Or rather what they have is so utterly alien and bound to the Hive Mind that there's nothing to eat.
Meanwhile get enough Tyranids together and the Shadow in the Warp effect means the demons wouldn't even get near them within the warp anyway.
Overread wrote: There's nothing in a Tyranid for a Warp Demon to feed on. Warp Demons want your emotions and so forth - Tyranids have nothing. Or rather what they have is so utterly alien and bound to the Hive Mind that there's nothing to eat.
Meanwhile get enough Tyranids together and the Shadow in the Warp effect means the demons wouldn't even get near them within the warp anyway.
Ok, probable re. daemons, although daemons do fight Tyranids in realspace so probably would in Warp space too.They aren't the only Warp predators though and we don't know if others only eat tasty souls.
The Shadow in the Warp might protect a fleet, but I doubt that would protect a handful of gaunts or a carnifex sucked into the Warp by a D-cannon. In addition, the currents of the Warp are shown to be enough to tear apart mighty warships alone- the failure of gellar fields doesn't just risk daemons, but imminent destruction by the Warp itself. The Shadow in the Warp does calm the Warp, but would that be enough to protect any frontline organisms sucked into the Warp by weaponry?
As a caveat, obviously this applies to creatures sucked in whole. A partially-hit creature is going to be sawed in two and probably killed by that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2024/02/27 16:29:10
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Yes, but are the mutating effects of the warp somehow physical or at ethey the symptoms of a plague of the mind only? If they were physical, then the hive fleet could very much suffer severely from it nonetheless. Also, considering the warp doesn't offer food to the hive either, and with time being distorted, isn't it possible that it could in a way super starve in what would be a short period of time in real space?
40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.
"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.
But there is something to be said for a directed evolution across far more environments than any natural species would adapt and survive in, while purposefully retaining all the useful bits of each evolutionary success. So it's still slightly different than naturally occuring evolution in a notably important way. A tyranid creature is simultaneously adapting to a thousand biomes againt a million opponents and sharing all of that infofmation accross every entity in real time, rather than just locally over generational time spans.
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
