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That'd be a scene for TTS, if it ever comes back

 Haighus wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.

Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.

The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.

I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.

It would be hilarious if those Primarchs came back and were like "What? I never wore those! Where did you find these bits of shoddy workmanship?"

In 10000 years, can easily imagine such items were misattributed to Primarchs.

I can believe it when Imperial World Gryphonne XXLVII says they have Sanguinius's Tightey Whiteys. But especially the Primogenitor Chapters will have been with their Primarchs and will have some sort of historical service for their own artifacts be it Gulliman's library, or Bjorn's stories around the campfire etc.

Breton wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.

Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.

The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.

I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.

It would be hilarious if those Primarchs came back and were like "What? I never wore those! Where did you find these bits of shoddy workmanship?"

In 10000 years, can easily imagine such items were misattributed to Primarchs.

I can believe it when Imperial World Gryphonne XXLVII says they have Sanguinius's Tightey Whiteys. But especially the Primogenitor Chapters will have been with their Primarchs and will have some sort of historical service for their own artifacts be it Gulliman's library, or Bjorn's stories around the campfire etc.

Eh, 10,000 years is a really long time and the Imperium has been in a state of technological regression. It is extremely possible for records to have been corrupted and legends to have drifted over that kind of time period. There is a very real chance that the High/Low Gothic spoken in the Horus Heresy is substantially different by the time of 40k, so interpreting old records could be rife for all kinds of mistakes in that regard too.

Imagine a record that said something like "Guilliman decreed that he wore these fists.". Says he wore the fists, right? But the previous line could have been lost, where it said something like "Guilliman honoured chapter master Decimus,". All together it clearly says something else:
"Guilliman honoured chapter master Decimus, Guilliman decreed that he wore these fists."

I think it would be very easy for such errors to creep in over 10k years. 10k years is hard to imagine- 10k years ago humanity hadn't invented writing yet and was creating the very first stone structures we are aware of.

Breton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.

Anyway, among loyalists Guilliman is the only Primarch who isn't functionally ideologically interchangeable with the rest of them. In any way that matters you could swap the personalities of all of them and it'd be the same. I expect this is also true of the Khan but I've not read much about him so can't really comment.

The traitors are much more interesting because they're actually allowed to be ideologically different from one another. Among them Magnus has historically been my favorite but I also like Lorgar and Perturabo.

I don't hate that they're larger, but I do enjoy the RetCon problems created by the change - one of the most famous being Calgar weilding the Gauntlets of Ultramar previous worn by Gulliman or Azrael being able to also wear the helmet of a 10 foot tall demi-god.

I demand FunkoPop Azrael

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I've always found the hatred for the Primarchs being taller than Space Marines so charming and goofy. You can really tell who would rather be playing historicals but can't find a player group large enough to do so with opinions like that.

Uh huh. Maybe those who like the big Primarchs hold significant insecurities about their own anatomy.

What a weird assumption. I've never really wanted to play historicals.


Edit: The Primarch being larger also kills some of the mystique around the Emperor recognizing them upon first encounter. In the stories I recall it seemed like an aura or something subtle that maybe others couldn't see directly. But now it's kinda just "The Emperor wisely spotted the 10 foot tall roid-man."

 Insectum7 wrote:

Uh huh. Maybe those who like the big Primarchs hold significant insecurities about their own anatomy.

What a weird assumption. I've never really wanted to play historicals.


Edit: The Primarch being larger also kills some of the mystique around the Emperor recognizing them upon first encounter. In the stories I recall it seemed like an aura or something subtle that maybe others couldn't see directly. But now it's kinda just "The Emperor wisely spotted the 10 foot tall roid-man."

Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?

Way back in 2nd edition when I first read the fluff? I imagined they were normal to slightly larger sized infants and grew to Space Marine (or Andre the Giant/The Bigshow) sized so they still looked human not mutant. Well Sanguinius still looked Mutated, I guess but not based on size in my early imaginings. And some would have looked slightly different. Mortarian might have looked more like an NBA Center than a gigantic professional wrestler. The Khan maybe like an MLB first baseman, tall but lankier/leaner but not so much as an NBA center. Certainly small enough to ride a large horse. Same with the Lion and his Knightly Orders that rode on horseback.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?

I imagined Primarchs as roughly Space Marine sized, in a world where Space Marines weren't huge either. Big sure, but not huge.

The old Leman Russ model was the size of a Space Marine, neither of whom were notably bigger than a human model.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?

I imagined Primarchs as roughly Space Marine sized, in a world where Space Marines weren't huge either. Big sure, but not huge.

The old Leman Russ model was the size of a Space Marine, neither of whom were notably bigger than a human model.

For the clarity of those reading, Leman Russ the Primarch, not the considerably larger Leman Russ the tank released around the same era

 Haighus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?

I imagined Primarchs as roughly Space Marine sized, in a world where Space Marines weren't huge either. Big sure, but not huge.

The old Leman Russ model was the size of a Space Marine, neither of whom were notably bigger than a human model.

For the clarity of those reading, Leman Russ the Primarch, not the considerably larger Leman Russ the tank released around the same era

Are we sure Leman Russ the Tank is larger than Leman Russ the Primarch? If you read the stories now, the Primarchs are playing soccer with Land Raiders... Oh Oh, I get it...

 Haighus wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Did you used to believe the Primarchs were smaller than Space Marines?

I imagined Primarchs as roughly Space Marine sized, in a world where Space Marines weren't huge either. Big sure, but not huge.

The old Leman Russ model was the size of a Space Marine, neither of whom were notably bigger than a human model.

For the clarity of those reading, Leman Russ the Primarch, not the considerably larger Leman Russ the tank released around the same era

Haha, yes.

Hmm. At the risk of hijacking the thread, does anyone else feel that it might have been better to *not* make the primarchs literal giants?

Like, if the primarchs were each just the size of a human, it would:
* Help make them feel like "exemplars" or possible futures of humanity rather than being a totally different species.

* Arguably make them even more eerie. Instead of being scary in the way a bear or T-rex is scary, they trip your uncanny valley by being almost human. Especially when they then perform feats of superhuman strength and speed right in front of you. It's like suddenly realizing that the guy you were talking to has been General Zod the whole time.

* Be better able to blend in with their adoptive communities. This also means we'd be less confused about Corax, Alpharius, and Kurze successfully sneaking around unnoticed. And then there's that discussion of where the Khan found a horse that was big enough to ride...

* Space marines would be much more obviously killing machines. Right now, giant primarchs creates this weird... pokemon evolution/Invader Zim (the tallest) thing, where your height is a direct indiator of how strong and highly-ranked you are. Which in addition to being a bit goofy also means that marines feel more like actual children. They're literally smaller than their dads. If you have marines walking around head and shoulders above their gene daddies, it marks them out as living weapons, designed for war; not as creatures meant to "fit in" under their primarchs.

Agreed.

Yup, totally.

The Armies of the Imperium basically turned into Orks, where size is indicative of power level/rank. Primarchs are bigger than Custodes are bigger than Primaris are bigger than TrueMarines are bigger than humans.

Not to mention the fact that I don't think they (Primarchs) can ride in the transports their troops ride in.

But this can't work as they are pink instead of green

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Hmm. At the risk of hijacking the thread, does anyone else feel that it might have been better to *not* make the primarchs literal giants?

Like, if the primarchs were each just the size of a human, it would:
* Help make them feel like "exemplars" or possible futures of humanity rather than being a totally different species.

* Arguably make them even more eerie. Instead of being scary in the way a bear or T-rex is scary, they trip your uncanny valley by being almost human. Especially when they then perform feats of superhuman strength and speed right in front of you. It's like suddenly realizing that the guy you were talking to has been General Zod the whole time.

* Be better able to blend in with their adoptive communities. This also means we'd be less confused about Corax, Alpharius, and Kurze successfully sneaking around unnoticed. And then there's that discussion of where the Khan found a horse that was big enough to ride...

* Space marines would be much more obviously killing machines. Right now, giant primarchs creates this weird... pokemon evolution/Invader Zim (the tallest) thing, where your height is a direct indiator of how strong and highly-ranked you are. Which in addition to being a bit goofy also means that marines feel more like actual children. They're literally smaller than their dads. If you have marines walking around head and shoulders above their gene daddies, it marks them out as living weapons, designed for war; not as creatures meant to "fit in" under their primarchs.

There are arguments for both sides. I think the Primarchs are generally supposed to be tragic figures. Their supernatural size is just another mechanic to set them apart and make them "lonely" - only really belonging among the other 17. I also think you're halfway there. Primarchs were supersized because MMO bosses are supersized. When's the last time you saw a man-sized raid boss without a target switch mechanic to giant pets/creations? Game Designers did not learn the Yoda lesson. Not the "Judge me by my size do you" lesson, but the actual visual lesson about it when he starts jumping 20 feet in all directions while fighting Dooku. Some of that is understandable because nobody wants to see an entire raid rage quit after trying to track down a superfast Yoda sized thing among all the sparkly flashy particle effects you're paying for the game in order to see. But the tabletop definitely doesn't have particle effects.

Plus its the next level ret-con that almost nobody ever gets to: The Primarchs are 10 feet tall. The Emperor standing next to Horus is about the same height. So the Emperor is 10 feet tall. Without the genetic manipulation. Unless he was his own test subject and grew 10 feet tall while he was working on them.

The emperor is stated, IIRC, to have taken up the role of several historical figures to guide mankind so he may just as well have grown himself rather than always having been that tall

The Emperor is canonically a psyker of such immense power that he can change how he appears to others at will, and very few individuals can see his true form. Magnus is similar.

On the Lion Helm? Worth keeping in mind that Primarchs are described as having regular human proportions. But their sons are described as being almost grotesque of proportion, like Gigantism.

So it is entirely possible the size difference for helmets just isn’t especially significant, as a Space Marine’s bonce is disproportionately large.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the Lion Helm? Worth keeping in mind that Primarchs are described as having regular human proportions. But their sons are described as being almost grotesque of proportion, like Gigantism.

So it is entirely possible the size difference for helmets just isn’t especially significant, as a Space Marine’s bonce is disproportionately large.

I could buy it on the circumference Hat Size, but overall head height, I'm still not convinced. Plus, at a certain point fluff that's been retconned this often is bound to fail, and in this case it's funny.

Just to point out, the Lion Helm Azrael wears is only rumoured to have been worn by the Primarch.

Alpharius and omegon were the same size as astartes weren’t they? But then they were never to be know. I think primarchs should have been made the same size as astartes.

Astartes were only made in a response to the primarchs going missing. I think having 20 warriors of astartes proportions would have made them standout amongst humanity. But GW made them standout against space marines which I don’t like I don’t think.

Alpharius and Omegon were smaller but then their Legion was also slightly taller than the average Astartes in general.

Add in the penchant for theatre where commanders would take the name "Alpharius" and often even wore the face of their Primarch, and it gets even more difficult to tell what is true.
Which is exactly how the Legion liked it.

 Gert wrote:
Just to point out, the Lion Helm Azrael wears is only rumoured to have been worn by the Primarch.

If it has been rumoured to, then logic says it can fit both his head and Azrael's, so either they're both roughly the same proportions, or one of them has got a head of bad proportions.

Doesn't make a lot of sense if primarchs are actually giants compared too the average marine, although I suppose 40k being what it is it doesn't always need to make sense.

Or you're taking things literally rather than as Chapter legend.

We as outside viewers can go "Yeah that's not going to be a helm that the Lion wore because it's too small" but until now, the Primarchs had been missing for ten thousand years and the only "living" Astartes that can even remember his Primarch was Bjorn and he's barely lucid as it is.

How many stories are there of people of massive or monstrous size in the various mythologies and legends in current human history? How about the various items said to have been held, wielded, or worn by people throughout the ages? How many of those stories are real and how many are made up? Did Robert the Bruce actually see the spider try to spin its web? Probably not but it makes a damn good story.

 Gert wrote:
Or you're taking things literally rather than as Chapter legend.

We as outside viewers can go "Yeah that's not going to be a helm that the Lion wore because it's too small" but until now, the Primarchs had been missing for ten thousand years and the only "living" Astartes that can even remember his Primarch was Bjorn and he's barely lucid as it is.

How many stories are there of people of massive or monstrous size in the various mythologies and legends in current human history? How about the various items said to have been held, wielded, or worn by people throughout the ages? How many of those stories are real and how many are made up? Did Robert the Bruce actually see the spider try to spin its web? Probably not but it makes a damn good story.

Gulliman was sitting in stasis on Macragge.

Yeah, I guess that counts.

Plus I mean, the dark freakin angels of all people, the ones hellbend on living in the past and pursuing the same quest for all that time, and where information is filtered at a fair few levels, the upper echelon may well have some documentation about their gene daddy.

Yes dealing with a fictional universe the reader is supposed to voluntarily surrender his common sense to go along with the story, but sometimes it's a tad too much and it comes scratching back.

 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Yeah, I guess that counts.

Plus I mean, the dark freakin angels of all people, the ones hellbend on living in the past and pursuing the same quest for all that time, and where information is filtered at a fair few levels, the upper echelon may well have some documentation about their gene daddy.

Yes dealing with a fictional universe the reader is supposed to voluntarily surrender his common sense to go along with the story, but sometimes it's a tad too much and it comes scratching back.

Meh. I'm pretty sure none of it was intentional. I'm pretty sure they didn't figure this stuff out first, and release it second, so they're kinda stuck in a couple places where they made some throw-away fluff like "this helmet once belonged to the Lion" before they figured out The Lion was 9'6" tall. So I take a minute to feel bad for them, and then snicker at the holes.

To be fair, I agree. Which is what results in that silly plot hole.

How many people got to see RG in stasis outside of the denizens of the planet and some pilgrims. Information doesn't flow freely through the galaxy like we have with the internet so people can’t freely educate themselves against the dogma drilled into them.

Also the lion helm could have been re forged. But I’ll be honest I always thought that he didn’t wear it and the watcher in the dark just carried it around close to him for the force field.