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So, I know this will result in much gnashing of teeth, wailing, and pulling of hair, but can we just delete the non-founding chapters? If you aren't one of the original chapters, get fracked. With special place I GUESS for the Black Templars, grey knight, and Death Watch, because they are all basically founding legions. But it would seriously cut down on 90% of all this crap. Too much bloat, well 50% just got cut over night.

Too many supplements? Now there are literally only the original ones. And half of those are spikey. I'm not saying destroy the lore, but I am saying for the table top, kill any model like for Astartes that isn't one of the founding chapters.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I know this will result in much gnashing of teeth, wailing, and pulling of hair, but can we just delete the non-founding chapters? If you aren't one of the original chapters, get fracked. With special place I GUESS for the Black Templars, grey knight, and Death Watch, because they are all basically founding legions. But it would seriously cut down on 90% of all this crap. Too much bloat, well 50% just got cut over night.

Too many supplements? Now there are literally only the original ones. And half of those are spikey. I'm not saying destroy the lore, but I am saying for the table top, kill any model like for Astartes that isn't one of the founding chapters.

Not sure how this would improve things as all the flanderised unit bloat being churned out year on year are from the First Founding Chapters which all also apparently need to be the best in class or people scream and wail that Chapter X are no longer the best of the best of the best but still want all the other stuff too - its a no win situation as GW also want to sell NEW models.

People want their own army to be OP...lore is far far too often an excuse to leverage super special rules

Again all the Supplements are First Founding....or at least those who you consider should be listed under.

How many 2nd-onwards founding Chapters have actually had significant, unique rules in recent times?

I can only think of Black Templars, Grey Knights, and Death Watch. Emperor's Spears had a sniff of rules in... 8th? and I think a couple of others, but the vast majority of rules have been for first founding Chapters. There are 18 of them across loyalist and traitors!

 Haighus wrote:
How many 2nd-onwards founding Chapters have actually had significant, unique rules in recent times?

I can only think of Black Templars, Grey Knights, and Death Watch. Emperor's Spears had a sniff of rules in... 8th? and I think a couple of others, but the vast majority of rules have been for first founding Chapters. There are 18 of them across loyalist and traitors!

Exactly - which is the ongoing issue - constant rules and model upgrades for the chosen few - which also distort and flanderise their lore to the point where every single unit type and title has to have Blood or Wolf or Dark shoved in front of it and each then has to have its own rules and all have to have new stuff each edition - and even then some First Founding Chapters get very very little in comparison - not that thats a bad thing in terms of actual lore - imagine sticking White in front of every unit type

in the last decade (so going back to 2014), there have only been codex supplements for:
- all the original chapters (ultras, salamanders, blood angels, etc)
- Crimson Slaughter (2014, 7th edition)
- Flesh Tearers (2016, 7th edition)
- Black Templars (2021, 9th edition)
- Deathwatch (2016, 2018, 2020, 7th, 8th, and 9th edition)
- Grey Knights (2014, 2017, 2021, 7th, 8th, and 9th edition)

there was a Silver Templars book in 2019 (8th edition), but i'm pretty sure that was just a sourcebook, without unique rules

GW used to have a lot of extra supplements for space marines, but as 7th edition begins fading into the past, it's clear that they don't really handle the game that way anymore. any rules that specific chapters have gotten over the last decade have been in the main codex itself or in WD, at which point it's more of a bonus thing— and even the codex is more light on that than ever, since we've moved to generic detachments rather than rules for specific chapters. the three factions you mentioned have bespoke indexes, but two of them have been a part of the game for a full decade now, with only BT being a recent addition (and that came with a lot more than just rules). the era of too many supplements is well in the past

Black Templars had unique rules from 3rd edition- they aren't a recent addition, but were folded back into the main Marine codex for a few editions.

Okay, one solution (which will never happen) is for GW to lean into the 3D printing aspect of the hobby. They could have a setup similar to eldritch foundry/ hero forge where you have a set number options, with ability to upload a vector graphic if you just want it on a shoulderpad. Then they could charge for individual prints or stl's.. BuuUUUt: GW being themselves, they'll want to make a proprietary software that you can only use the file a few times, then it's destroyed/ encrypted. This would suck, as print failures happen, even with the best of settings/ supports/ etc. Can't eliminate human error. More likely, they could send printers to affiliated stores and have THEM print out orders.. This could be a slower process, as the store owner won't wait hours for one marine, so they'd want to fill the plate (which, honestly- for the horde swarm armies, wouldn't be an issue) and they'd sit on it until they had enough people to make it worth your while.
But all this is how dependent on how much of a lorehound/ rules lawyer you and/ or opponent are. In a casual game you could be like "This big chonky primaris with a cannon actually has a plasma gun, oh and they're all blue, but I'm playing Dark Angels." (Minus specfic models and such).

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
in the last decade (so going back to 2014), there have only been codex supplements for:
- all the original chapters (ultras, salamanders, blood angels, etc)
- Crimson Slaughter (2014, 7th edition)
- Flesh Tearers (2016, 7th edition)
- Black Templars (2021, 9th edition)
- Deathwatch (2016, 2018, 2020, 7th, 8th, and 9th edition)
- Grey Knights (2014, 2017, 2021, 7th, 8th, and 9th edition)

there was a Silver Templars book in 2019 (8th edition), but i'm pretty sure that was just a sourcebook, without unique rules

GW used to have a lot of extra supplements for space marines, but as 7th edition begins fading into the past, it's clear that they don't really handle the game that way anymore. any rules that specific chapters have gotten over the last decade have been in the main codex itself or in WD, at which point it's more of a bonus thing— and even the codex is more light on that than ever, since we've moved to generic detachments rather than rules for specific chapters. the three factions you mentioned have bespoke indexes, but two of them have been a part of the game for a full decade now, with only BT being a recent addition (and that came with a lot more than just rules). the era of too many supplements is well in the past

Laughs at the word only as a list of what 30-40 books is listed?

Personally I think the current edition is an improvement on the previous

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, I know this will result in much gnashing of teeth, wailing, and pulling of hair, but can we just delete the non-founding chapters? If you aren't one of the original chapters, get fracked. With special place I GUESS for the Black Templars, grey knight, and Death Watch, because they are all basically founding legions. But it would seriously cut down on 90% of all this crap. Too much bloat, well 50% just got cut over night.

Too many supplements? Now there are literally only the original ones. And half of those are spikey. I'm not saying destroy the lore, but I am saying for the table top, kill any model like for Astartes that isn't one of the founding chapters.

Hard disagree. The better solution imo is to return to the Chapter Traits system where known Chapters are given prescribed traits, but players are free to make their own.

Just don't go crazy like the 8.5 Supplements did.

Be careful what you wish for.

Space Marines are ridiculously popular. Near unfathomably so. With reports that the Tactical Squad alone once outsold the whole of WHFB. Not reports I’ve ever seen corroborated, but reports all the same.

Whether casual play or organised play, you can be pretty confident a solid percentage of your games are likely to be against Space Marines of one flavour or another.

Stop and think if you really want those games to be against cookie cutter lists, just with different coloured sprinkles.

Chapter Variants (when done right!) allow the Marine player to skew their list toward a certain type of warfare and its associated strategies and tactics. This in turn brings variety of opponents. A Deathwing army plays very differently to a Ravenwing army. Space Wolves bring different challenges to Blood Angels.

Perhaps the key is a greater variation between them? But don’t wish it away entirely.

I would say the goal is to give Space Marines (and other factions) a wide variety of play-styles and lists without making that variety depend on subfactions or paint colors.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Chapter Variants (when done right!) allow the Marine player to skew their list toward a certain type of warfare and its associated strategies and tactics. This in turn brings variety of opponents. A Deathwing army plays very differently to a Ravenwing army. Space Wolves bring different challenges to Blood Angels.

Given that Vanilla Marines can make Terminator or bike spam lists too, I'm not sure that you're making the point very well...

If you're seeing a lack of melee space marine variety, its entirely because GW has failed to create a compelling framework for melee space marine armies. Demanding players provide the variety that GW has failed to simply because of how they painted their models is like being mad that you never get to face off against an Ork gunline.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
in the last decade (so going back to 2014), there have only been codex supplements for:
- all the original chapters (ultras, salamanders, blood angels, etc)
- Crimson Slaughter (2014, 6th edition)
- Flesh Tearers (2016, 7th edition)
- Black Templars (2021, 9th edition)
- Deathwatch (2016, 2018, 2020, 7th, 8th, and 9th edition)
- Grey Knights (2014, 2017, 2021, 7th, 8th, and 9th edition)

there was a Silver Templars book in 2019 (8th edition), but i'm pretty sure that was just a sourcebook, without unique rules

GW used to have a lot of extra supplements for space marines, but as 7th edition begins fading into the past, it's clear that they don't really handle the game that way anymore. any rules that specific chapters have gotten over the last decade have been in the main codex itself or in WD, at which point it's more of a bonus thing— and even the codex is more light on that than ever, since we've moved to generic detachments rather than rules for specific chapters. the three factions you mentioned have bespoke indexes, but two of them have been a part of the game for a full decade now, with only BT being a recent addition (and that came with a lot more than just rules). the era of too many supplements is well in the past

Laughs at the word only as a list of what 30-40 books is listed?

Personally I think the current edition is an improvement on the previous

nine, unless we're counting all the original space marines (and the point i was responding to was specifically talking about the ones outside of those). even if we count all of those, it's 18 across the three editions, for a total of 27 chapter-specific books across the span of a decade. generally speaking, GW just goes with BA, DA, SW, DW, and GK. BT are an old thing made new again, and main book chapters got their only mini -books in 8th edition

point i was trying to make is, GW is pretty reasonable about space marine releases these days. as a xenos player, i naturally think it's too much and all of these resources should be put into making new tyranids, but all things considered, it feels like an alright place for the faction to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also i like the new book making rules generic so you can apply them to your own personal OC chapter, and also, given the popularity of space marines, their numerous releases are fair. space marines are what keep GW in business

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
as a xenos player, i naturally think it's too much and all of these resources should be put into making new tyranids, but all things considered, it feels like an alright place for the faction to be.

All biomass becomes Tyranids eventually. Marines are just nids with extra steps!

 Tyran wrote:
I would say the goal is to give Space Marines (and other factions) a wide variety of play-styles and lists without making that variety depend on subfactions or paint colors.

I heartily agree.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Chapter Variants (when done right!) allow the Marine player to skew their list toward a certain type of warfare and its associated strategies and tactics. This in turn brings variety of opponents. A Deathwing army plays very differently to a Ravenwing army. Space Wolves bring different challenges to Blood Angels.

Given that Vanilla Marines can make Terminator or bike spam lists too, I'm not sure that you're making the point very well...

To be fair they can't really spam bikes the way they used to be able to, and the new bikes lack many of the options that made that more interesting.

 LunarSol wrote:

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
as a xenos player, i naturally think it's too much and all of these resources should be put into making new tyranids, but all things considered, it feels like an alright place for the faction to be.

All biomass becomes Tyranids eventually. Marines are just nids with extra steps!

I endorse this comment.

So I've read through the entire thread, and I'm still not entirely clear on what exactly we're discussing/what the OP is getting at. Can someone clarify for me?

Is it just that the OP wants every chapter to have their own bespoke version of a bunch of generic units? Because if so, I'd really rather we went the other direction. Grey hunters could just be represented by tactical marines, sanguinary guard could just be a wargear option for vanguard vets, all chapters could have the ability to stick a librarian in a dreadnaught, etc.

I'm pretty sure most of the "unique" units are available to or have an equivalent in at least a few chapters. That is, BA aren't the only ones who thought of giving inferno pistols, power swords, and fancy armor to their vanguard vets. SW aren't the only chapter that has some animal pals. BA aren't the only chapter to have a psyker in a dreadnaught or a group of extra angry boys wearing power armor. So with that in mind, it makes sense to me that you'd err on the side of giving most chapters access to most toys rather than not.

Like, WS favor putting everyone on a bike or in a tank whenever they can. Presumably, someone who opts to paint their army up like WS will field bikes and/or rhinos more often than not, and they'll probably use the detachment that supports that best. But if someone *does* decide to paint their bikers green or paint their dreadnaught army in WS colors, the only harm in it is that it might offend our personal fluff sensibilities. Which is fine.

Basically, I like when the rules support a variety of playstyles for a given army. I don't like when those playstyles are locked behind a paint scheme. And furthermore, I kind of feel like we don't really see an expectation for that level of special distinction among non-marine players. Like, Iyanden players don't seem to get annoyed when someone fields a wraith army painted up in Biel-Tan colors.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Be careful what you wish for.

Space Marines are ridiculously popular. Near unfathomably so. With reports that the Tactical Squad alone once outsold the whole of WHFB. Not reports I’ve ever seen corroborated, but reports all the same.

Whether casual play or organised play, you can be pretty confident a solid percentage of your games are likely to be against Space Marines of one flavour or another.

Stop and think if you really want those games to be against cookie cutter lists, just with different coloured sprinkles.

Chapter Variants (when done right!) allow the Marine player to skew their list toward a certain type of warfare and its associated strategies and tactics. This in turn brings variety of opponents. A Deathwing army plays very differently to a Ravenwing army. Space Wolves bring different challenges to Blood Angels.

Perhaps the key is a greater variation between them? But don’t wish it away entirely.

You're preaching to my choir. Variety is incredibly underestimated in value, especially when it comes to replay. I think we took a huge step forwards with the Dets (even though squatting so many HQ's that make them work is a step back too, Hey it's GW.) every theme should be available to every chapter, but the chapter should influence how the theme plays. To the point that a Deathwing army plays differently that a Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminator Armor even though they're all terminators.

Breton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Be careful what you wish for.

Space Marines are ridiculously popular. Near unfathomably so. With reports that the Tactical Squad alone once outsold the whole of WHFB. Not reports I’ve ever seen corroborated, but reports all the same.

Whether casual play or organised play, you can be pretty confident a solid percentage of your games are likely to be against Space Marines of one flavour or another.

Stop and think if you really want those games to be against cookie cutter lists, just with different coloured sprinkles.

Chapter Variants (when done right!) allow the Marine player to skew their list toward a certain type of warfare and its associated strategies and tactics. This in turn brings variety of opponents. A Deathwing army plays very differently to a Ravenwing army. Space Wolves bring different challenges to Blood Angels.

Perhaps the key is a greater variation between them? But don’t wish it away entirely.

You're preaching to my choir. Variety is incredibly underestimated in value, especially when it comes to replay. I think we took a huge step forwards with the Dets (even though squatting so many HQ's that make them work is a step back too, Hey it's GW.) every theme should be available to every chapter, but the chapter should influence how the theme plays. To the point that a Deathwing army plays differently that a Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminator Armor even though they're all terminators.

Would you trust GW to do it in an even-handed way?
I certainly wouldn't.

We already had this, and it was done the GW way, everyone could have a full Terminator or Bike army, but one did it straight up better, resulting in the so called Codex hopping that GW wanted to forbid by making colours prt of the rules

But it does not really matter as whatever it is now, in 2 years it will be changed anyway
So just wait and see

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Be careful what you wish for.

Space Marines are ridiculously popular. Near unfathomably so. With reports that the Tactical Squad alone once outsold the whole of WHFB. Not reports I’ve ever seen corroborated, but reports all the same.

Whether casual play or organised play, you can be pretty confident a solid percentage of your games are likely to be against Space Marines of one flavour or another.

Stop and think if you really want those games to be against cookie cutter lists, just with different coloured sprinkles.

Chapter Variants (when done right!) allow the Marine player to skew their list toward a certain type of warfare and its associated strategies and tactics. This in turn brings variety of opponents. A Deathwing army plays very differently to a Ravenwing army. Space Wolves bring different challenges to Blood Angels.

Perhaps the key is a greater variation between them? But don’t wish it away entirely.

You're preaching to my choir. Variety is incredibly underestimated in value, especially when it comes to replay. I think we took a huge step forwards with the Dets (even though squatting so many HQ's that make them work is a step back too, Hey it's GW.) every theme should be available to every chapter, but the chapter should influence how the theme plays. To the point that a Deathwing army plays differently that a Space Wolves Wolf Guard Terminator Armor even though they're all terminators.

Would you trust GW to do it in an even-handed way?
I certainly wouldn't.

I'd hope for it. Its certainly better than everybody's armies being cookie cutter pre-built lists as the Combat Patrol system expands to 2,000 point battles.

Honestly, one of the more unfortunate decisions GW made was to tie doctrinal bonuses to Named Entities. I can understand why; it's a quick and convenient shorthand and ties it into the background material, but you could see the crying coming a mile off.
As to why (eg) Eldar don't seem to have the same problem, maybe that's a side benefit of being slightly sidelined. Not every aspect of that culture has been modelled and described down to the bowel movements, so there's a lot less ackshullying to deal with.

It is also a problem with focusing on such a small number of what are tiny entities.

A standard Marine Chapter is a little over 1000 Marines at full strength. That is less than a single typical Imperial Guard regiment. There are probably more Eldar on a single major Cratfworld than there are Marines in the entire Imperium.

It isn't surprising that lore for a mere 1000 soldiers become extremely detailed and at risk of flanderisation in a way that other, larger factions are less prone to. A major Imperial Guard recruiting world, Eldar Craftworld, Ork Waaagh! etc. can all easily encompass more-or-less the full range of their faction's common variants and still have a predilection towards a certain variant. Marines much less so.

Pilum wrote:
Honestly, one of the more unfortunate decisions GW made was to tie doctrinal bonuses to Named Entities. I can understand why; it's a quick and convenient shorthand and ties it into the background material, but you could see the crying coming a mile off.
As to why (eg) Eldar don't seem to have the same problem, maybe that's a side benefit of being slightly sidelined. Not every aspect of that culture has been modelled and described down to the bowel movements, so there's a lot less ackshullying to deal with.

In some cases its good, in some cases it's bad. While technically not a "black sheep" Sammael and Belial used to do some FOC choice shenanigans making Bikes/Terminators TROOPS. Putting that option on all Bike and Terminator Captains would have been better but messier.

So Robute Gulliman shouldn't be the source of UM doctrinal bonuses, but Sammael of the Ravenwing changing things up for his non-standard or what I call "black sheep" list should enable his non-standard force structure. Likewise a generic bike captain from the Imperial Fists (or wherever). Or the Captain of the Raven Guard First Company (who should likely be named because their First Company Det is going to look different than most).

With that said, the Dets are a good first step but they still need some work. Generic HQ's in alternate armors (include Bikes as an "armor") are often ridiculously lacking. Dets that lean into a non-standard structure (i.e. using Terminators or Big Bugs etc as Troops) need to provide an adjustment. Bikes are already OC2, Terminators are OC1. The First Company Dets should probably bump the Veteran Units from OC1 to OC2 or better.

Its like the keyword system. Keywords could be so powerful in this game, but they're only scratching the surface. Every unit having either/or/and Biological and Mechanical to Keyword limit/enable Poison and EMP/Haywire is a no-brainer. If they stick with the Dets and refine them they could be a great system. If they kick them down the road anytime nobody's looking they're going to be meh for a couple editions when they chuck it all and start over with Indexes.

Breton wrote:

Its like the keyword system. Keywords could be so powerful in this game, but they're only scratching the surface. Every unit having either/or/and Biological and Mechanical to Keyword limit/enable Poison and EMP/Haywire is a no-brainer. If they stick with the Dets and refine them they could be a great system. If they kick them down the road anytime nobody's looking they're going to be meh for a couple editions when they chuck it all and start over with Indexes.

i think that's getting more in the weeds than GW would really like these days. you could have an extensive list of keywords for each unit and model, but that would be very complicated. i think this kind of thing is deserving of its own game system, for how extensive it could be. the way GW handle it now (ie, some things can't effect monsters or vehicles) do the job fine. like if you want something that can poison other units, saying "except monsters or vehicles" is enough. vehicles are made of metal, and monsters are too big for the poison to affect them

i agree this would be cool, but it would also be incredibly difficult to pull off. as i said, it should be its own game system

And here I was expecting this to be an ignored thread lol

 Wyldhunt wrote:
So I've read through the entire thread, and I'm still not entirely clear on what exactly we're discussing/what the OP is getting at. Can someone clarify for me?

Uniformity, sameness across the various chapters is boring. That's why someone posted a link to the 60+ page thread about lack of flavor. And like that thread, the discussion revolves around how to evoke the distinctions between the chapters present in the fluff on the tabletop without, um, "flanderizing" everything and creating clear winners and losers in the process.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:

Breton wrote:

Its like the keyword system. Keywords could be so powerful in this game, but they're only scratching the surface. Every unit having either/or/and Biological and Mechanical to Keyword limit/enable Poison and EMP/Haywire is a no-brainer. If they stick with the Dets and refine them they could be a great system. If they kick them down the road anytime nobody's looking they're going to be meh for a couple editions when they chuck it all and start over with Indexes.

i think that's getting more in the weeds than GW would really like these days. you could have an extensive list of keywords for each unit and model, but that would be very complicated. i think this kind of thing is deserving of its own game system, for how extensive it could be. the way GW handle it now (ie, some things can't effect monsters or vehicles) do the job fine. like if you want something that can poison other units, saying "except monsters or vehicles" is enough. vehicles are made of metal, and monsters are too big for the poison to affect them

i agree this would be cool, but it would also be incredibly difficult to pull off. as i said, it should be its own game system

There's a happy medium, and the more the same keyword shows up, the less "in the weeds" things get. Take the example - if everything is Biological or Mechanical (with a few - like Space Marine Dreadnaughts potentially - even being both) its going to be as reflex in nature as that's a 3+ save, that's a 4+ save. Even doing this a handful of times to each model with general category keywords BIOLOGICAL, INFANTRY, SMALL/BIG/BIGGER/BIGGEST (think Transports), and a few other basic concepts you'd see in the CORE rules and the common USRs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arschbombe wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
So I've read through the entire thread, and I'm still not entirely clear on what exactly we're discussing/what the OP is getting at. Can someone clarify for me?

Uniformity, sameness across the various chapters is boring. That's why someone posted a link to the 60+ page thread about lack of flavor. And like that thread, the discussion revolves around how to evoke the distinctions between the chapters present in the fluff on the tabletop without, um, "flanderizing" everything and creating clear winners and losers in the process.

I'm actually fairly worried we're going to see Combat Patrol turn into the mechanics for 2,000 point armies as well. You'll be given pre-generated 2,000 point armies that have this HQ with this load out, these units with these loadouts, and those other characters with those other loadouts, and each 2,000 point army will have bespoke datasheets just for that army box.

Breton wrote:
I'm actually fairly worried we're going to see Combat Patrol turn into the mechanics for 2,000 point armies as well. You'll be given pre-generated 2,000 point armies that have this HQ with this load out, these units with these loadouts, and those other characters with those other loadouts, and each 2,000 point army will have bespoke datasheets just for that army box.

I would be more than happy to see that happen - for tournament play only.

Want to prove you've actually got some skill? Win events using a list GW built for you... and let everyone else enjoy the game without the limitations that the actions of the tryhards end up causing GW to inflict on the rest of the playerbase.

 Dysartes wrote:

Breton wrote:
I'm actually fairly worried we're going to see Combat Patrol turn into the mechanics for 2,000 point armies as well. You'll be given pre-generated 2,000 point armies that have this HQ with this load out, these units with these loadouts, and those other characters with those other loadouts, and each 2,000 point army will have bespoke datasheets just for that army box.

I would be more than happy to see that happen - for tournament play only.

Want to prove you've actually got some skill? Win events using a list GW built for you... and let everyone else enjoy the game without the limitations that the actions of the tryhards end up causing GW to inflict on the rest of the playerbase.

As tournaments go so does the rest of the pickup games. So you'll lose support for DIY Armies.