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Worth keeping in mind Auto weapons are broad, catch all categories.
So any rapid firing, belt fed fully automatic gun which uses solid shot can be described as a Heavy Stubber. Anything resembling a modern day Assault Rifle would be an Autogun etc. So it’s not necessarily defined by the calibre.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I should have been more clear, my bolters everywhere comment was hyperbole.
For me, any guard officer or sergeant having anything other than a las weapon should be rare. Bolt weapons should be prized items. Plasma pistols more so.
Nowadays, see any number of threads discussing weapons load outs or points and you’ll see “no one has sergeants with las pistols” comments all over. Plasma is standard, bolt weapons minimum.
From second edition onward bolt weapons became more and more prevalent, heavy weapons, character models.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Also, I'm willing to bet that in most "artwork" it could be argued that is a "Heavy Autogun" a common term thrown about in early 40k fluff. With zero actual distinction from a Stubber, or a Heavy Stubber. Considering an Autogun is a liter full auto-.50cal, I shudder to think what a "Heavy Autogun" is. It's a Bolter.
What's the source for an autogun being .50cal? My recollection is that an autogun is akin to a standard assault rifle (2nd ed Wargear book). So like, 5.56/7.62 or similar.
I figure a Heavy Stubber is .50cal-ish.
Heavy stubber is referred to as a belt fed Heavy machine gun, essentially a .50. In Many of the gaunt books, the Blood pact wield ".point fifties" on tripods, that he then calls "Heavy Stubbers". The Autogun, is a magazine fed lighter version of that. Much like an AR in .50cal. I give you the .50 Beowulf (AMERICUHH) https://www.alexanderarms.com/product-category/50-beowulf/
.50cal ARs have existed since the 90s. Glock came out with the .50GAR, then there were a bunch of .50 pistol ARs, then someone was like, lets go full stupid and make a .50c AR round. It's not even that powerful. The 6.7 hits harder.
Eh, I think we can say there are .50cals, and then there are .50cals. Being that autogun is a generic term, and the fact that it's not hitting at the S4 of a Heavy Stubber, we can safely assume that an autogun isn't firing the .50cal that generally comes to mind. And saying that autoguns are .50cal is giving the wrong impression.
Andykp wrote: I should have been more clear, my bolters everywhere comment was hyperbole.
For me, any guard officer or sergeant having anything other than a las weapon should be rare. Bolt weapons should be prized items. Plasma pistols more so.
Nowadays, see any number of threads discussing weapons load outs or points and you’ll see “no one has sergeants with las pistols” comments all over. Plasma is standard, bolt weapons minimum.
From second edition onward bolt weapons became more and more prevalent, heavy weapons, character models.
I think it should be fairly obvious that the modern day over-prevalence of plasma pistols and boltguns on the table is a side effect of GW going down the insanely stupid route of doing away with charging points for upgrades.
They were available to purchase before, but they weren't common to see because you had to actually pay for them to be in your army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/10 16:01:47
It's funny, in all my reading, only 3 main characters I can think of off the top of my head ever used a plasma pistol as a main weapon. That being:
Victor Hark - Commissar (Table accurate)
Sister Miraya Battle Sister Celestian (Table Accurate?)
The main character in the "The Emperor's Gift", a Brother Chaplain(?) in a squad of GK, who uses a Force Rod and a Plasma Pistol. (Not really table accurate I think? But I don't know when this book was written)
I am seriously confused where the idea that ordinary non-unique characters should be able to field them came from. A Standard Captain should be given a Las Pistol, capable of being upgraded to a Bolt Pistol. Plasma is for named characters or super Elites. Not dross like ordinary Guard captains.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It's funny, in all my reading, only 3 main characters I can think of off the top of my head ever used a plasma pistol as a main weapon. That being:
Victor Hark - Commissar (Table accurate)
Sister Miraya Battle Sister Celestian (Table Accurate?)
The main character in the "The Emperor's Gift", a Brother Chaplain(?) in a squad of GK, who uses a Force Rod and a Plasma Pistol. (Not really table accurate I think? But I don't know when this book was written)
I am seriously confused where the idea that ordinary non-unique characters should be able to field them came from. A Standard Captain should be given a Las Pistol, capable of being upgraded to a Bolt Pistol. Plasma is for named characters or super Elites. Not dross like ordinary Guard captains.
Plasma pistols also find themselves in the hands of hive gangers, though. They may be rare and high mantinence compared to other weapons, but clearly attainable.
Andykp wrote: I should have been more clear, my bolters everywhere comment was hyperbole.
For me, any guard officer or sergeant having anything other than a las weapon should be rare. Bolt weapons should be prized items. Plasma pistols more so.
Nowadays, see any number of threads discussing weapons load outs or points and you’ll see “no one has sergeants with las pistols” comments all over. Plasma is standard, bolt weapons minimum.
From second edition onward bolt weapons became more and more prevalent, heavy weapons, character models.
I think it should be fairly obvious that the modern day over-prevalence of plasma pistols and boltguns on the table is a side effect of GW going down the insanely stupid route of doing away with charging points for upgrades.
They were available to purchase before, but they weren't common to see because you had to actually pay for them to be in your army.
What world did you live in? They've been absurdly common takes since the pistols became mandatory options for Guard Sergeants and Officers and any longarms removed from their wargear options.
Pretending that this was a development of the "no points upgrade" is daft.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/10 17:48:42
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Also, I'm willing to bet that in most "artwork" it could be argued that is a "Heavy Autogun" a common term thrown about in early 40k fluff. With zero actual distinction from a Stubber, or a Heavy Stubber. Considering an Autogun is a liter full auto-.50cal, I shudder to think what a "Heavy Autogun" is. It's a Bolter.
What's the source for an autogun being .50cal? My recollection is that an autogun is akin to a standard assault rifle (2nd ed Wargear book). So like, 5.56/7.62 or similar.
I figure a Heavy Stubber is .50cal-ish.
Heavy stubber is referred to as a belt fed Heavy machine gun, essentially a .50. In Many of the gaunt books, the Blood pact wield ".point fifties" on tripods, that he then calls "Heavy Stubbers". The Autogun, is a magazine fed lighter version of that. Much like an AR in .50cal. I give you the .50 Beowulf (AMERICUHH) https://www.alexanderarms.com/product-category/50-beowulf/
.50cal ARs have existed since the 90s. Glock came out with the .50GAR, then there were a bunch of .50 pistol ARs, then someone was like, lets go full stupid and make a .50c AR round. It's not even that powerful. The 6.7 hits harder.
Eh, I think we can say there are .50cals, and then there are .50cals. Being that autogun is a generic term, and the fact that it's not hitting at the S4 of a Heavy Stubber, we can safely assume that an autogun isn't firing the .50cal that generally comes to mind. And saying that autoguns are .50cal is giving the wrong impression.
Plus we have a lote example of an autogun calibre, it is not .50 cal. It is 8.25mm (~.32 cal) and the round is described as "oversized". Autoguns are probably in this ballpark and rarely larger calibre.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I don't think many novel characters use plasma pistols because they can blow up and kill the character. So they tend to be used by characters with a bit of a "gung ho" attitude, like Straken.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/10 18:25:20
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Also, I'm willing to bet that in most "artwork" it could be argued that is a "Heavy Autogun" a common term thrown about in early 40k fluff. With zero actual distinction from a Stubber, or a Heavy Stubber. Considering an Autogun is a liter full auto-.50cal, I shudder to think what a "Heavy Autogun" is. It's a Bolter.
What's the source for an autogun being .50cal? My recollection is that an autogun is akin to a standard assault rifle (2nd ed Wargear book). So like, 5.56/7.62 or similar.
I figure a Heavy Stubber is .50cal-ish.
Heavy stubber is referred to as a belt fed Heavy machine gun, essentially a .50. In Many of the gaunt books, the Blood pact wield ".point fifties" on tripods, that he then calls "Heavy Stubbers". The Autogun, is a magazine fed lighter version of that. Much like an AR in .50cal. I give you the .50 Beowulf (AMERICUHH) https://www.alexanderarms.com/product-category/50-beowulf/
.50cal ARs have existed since the 90s. Glock came out with the .50GAR, then there were a bunch of .50 pistol ARs, then someone was like, lets go full stupid and make a .50c AR round. It's not even that powerful. The 6.7 hits harder.
Eh, I think we can say there are .50cals, and then there are .50cals. Being that autogun is a generic term, and the fact that it's not hitting at the S4 of a Heavy Stubber, we can safely assume that an autogun isn't firing the .50cal that generally comes to mind. And saying that autoguns are .50cal is giving the wrong impression.
Andykp wrote: I should have been more clear, my bolters everywhere comment was hyperbole.
For me, any guard officer or sergeant having anything other than a las weapon should be rare. Bolt weapons should be prized items. Plasma pistols more so.
Nowadays, see any number of threads discussing weapons load outs or points and you’ll see “no one has sergeants with las pistols” comments all over. Plasma is standard, bolt weapons minimum.
From second edition onward bolt weapons became more and more prevalent, heavy weapons, character models.
I think it should be fairly obvious that the modern day over-prevalence of plasma pistols and boltguns on the table is a side effect of GW going down the insanely stupid route of doing away with charging points for upgrades.
They were available to purchase before, but they weren't common to see because you had to actually pay for them to be in your army.
That’s a whole different discussion, and not one I want to have again really. I have a guard army and have one plasma pistol on the whole thing. Nearly everyone else has a las pistol.
The point I was trying to make was that now bolt weapons seem relatively common, marines having super bolt weapons makes sense. Super weapons for super soldiers.
Andykp wrote: I should have been more clear, my bolters everywhere comment was hyperbole.
For me, any guard officer or sergeant having anything other than a las weapon should be rare. Bolt weapons should be prized items. Plasma pistols more so.
Nowadays, see any number of threads discussing weapons load outs or points and you’ll see “no one has sergeants with las pistols” comments all over. Plasma is standard, bolt weapons minimum.
From second edition onward bolt weapons became more and more prevalent, heavy weapons, character models.
I think it should be fairly obvious that the modern day over-prevalence of plasma pistols and boltguns on the table is a side effect of GW going down the insanely stupid route of doing away with charging points for upgrades.
They were available to purchase before, but they weren't common to see because you had to actually pay for them to be in your army.
What world did you live in? They've been absurdly common takes since the pistols became mandatory options for Guard Sergeants and Officers and any longarms removed from their wargear options.
Pretending that this was a development of the "no points upgrade" is daft.
A different world than you, because I've rarely seen them when points were needed to take them. It happened, sure, but now that they're free the frequency will have increased dramatically.
We have a record too. I'll bet you we can look at posted lists on this site from earlier editions and compare them with lists in the current edition, and we'll see a significant difference between the era when you payed for sergeant wargear upgrades and the current day.
The point I was trying to make was that now bolt weapons seem relatively common, marines having super bolt weapons makes sense. Super weapons for super soldiers.
But just like autoguns, boltguns can be a catch-all term for a class of weapons that runs a wide gamut in terms of capability and reliability, but which all are still best represented by the same profile.
Just like a115 pound woman and elite bodybuilder Aaaggghrnold are both still represented by Strength 3.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Kan:
I picked a random page to get a sample from an earlier edition. Page 900 from Army Lists. This was the first full size army I found. 6th edition.
And on reflection, background wise? It took them long enough. Surely, being the cream of the crop, extra burly and then with exo-armour-strength, Marines should’ve had superior weapons to Guardsmen all along? Think Plasma Blasters instead of Plasma Guns. Those fancy Primaris Meltaguns instead of boring basic Meltaguns?
Does it not make sense that superior troops should have superior guns, and should’ve done all along?
Sorta kinda not really. It makes sense that their gear would be better made and maintained, but ultimately still the same *kind* of weapon as what a humble guardsman uses. This reinforces the idea that they're working off of the same handful of ancient recipes rather than inventing new super special custom jobs.
Plus, it gets a little weird when you start thinking about it in reverse. It would be a bit silly for the imperium to intentionally *not* provide the IG with the best plasma guns they can (thus potentially losing more conflicts) just so the special forces warrior monks can feel more special. If there were some super rare material or component that created artificial scarcity of the better weapons, that might be more justifiable, but I'm not aware of any lore saying a hellblaster's gun is reliant on any such manufacturing bottleneck.
My preferred interpretation would have been that marines are basically using the same guns as everyone else but that they simply have the extra training, gadgets, and power armor features to use those weapons differently. Like, instead of saying that Cawl invented three separate super bolters for intercessors, we could just say that intercessors can switch to different techniques for firing fewer, better aimed shots and more, less-accurate shots as the situation demands.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Flinty wrote: The original Rogue Trader description of autoguns is below. Small calibre explicitly noted, which I wouldn’t consider a .50 cal to be.
Problems: These descriptions appear to be written by someone who knows literally zero about conventional firearms. At least in the 20th Century. There was only 1 ever Caseless ammo small arms weapon system ever to make it past planning into basic development. The H&K G11. It used a Caseless 4.7mm round. About 15 or so were ever actually made, and the ammo was never actually sent into production. For obvious reasons, this weapon was a complete flop. Caseless ammo is/was a futuristic trope that never actually made it. If it gets wet, it's useless. It's fragile. It's prone to exploding when near fire (surprisingly everywhere on a battlefield).
Auto guns have since this description, had countless examples of their wielders referring to them as "Archaic slug throwers" that do a lot more physical damage, but are also prone to jamming, running out of ammo, breaking, etc.
My description of them as .50 cals is based on a very bad detail writer, (Abnett) using loosey goosey terms interchangeably. He describes Trooper Bragg "picking up an Assault Cannon" and wielding it like a flamer. He obviously means Autocannon. He also refers to an Autogun as a belt fed "point fifty" in "Only in Death". Point is, Autogun is a term to define literally anything short of a Boltgun in 40k. Depending on the Author.
marines having super bolt weapons makes sense. Super weapons for super soldiers.
This raises a question. Do you and OP want people to engage more often in this level of thinking? It's satisfying for you, but do you think you would benefit if lots of people also used this kind of reasoning just for warhammer.
Andykp wrote: I should have been more clear, my bolters everywhere comment was hyperbole.
For me, any guard officer or sergeant having anything other than a las weapon should be rare. Bolt weapons should be prized items. Plasma pistols more so.
Nowadays, see any number of threads discussing weapons load outs or points and you’ll see “no one has sergeants with las pistols” comments all over. Plasma is standard, bolt weapons minimum.
From second edition onward bolt weapons became more and more prevalent, heavy weapons, character models.
I think it should be fairly obvious that the modern day over-prevalence of plasma pistols and boltguns on the table is a side effect of GW going down the insanely stupid route of doing away with charging points for upgrades.
They were available to purchase before, but they weren't common to see because you had to actually pay for them to be in your army.
What world did you live in? They've been absurdly common takes since the pistols became mandatory options for Guard Sergeants and Officers and any longarms removed from their wargear options.
Pretending that this was a development of the "no points upgrade" is daft.
A different world than you, because I've rarely seen them when points were needed to take them. It happened, sure, but now that they're free the frequency will have increased dramatically.
We have a record too. I'll bet you we can look at posted lists on this site from earlier editions and compare them with lists in the current edition, and we'll see a significant difference between the era when you payed for sergeant wargear upgrades and the current day.
@Kan:
I picked a random page to get a sample from an earlier edition. Page 900 from Army Lists. This was the first full size army I found. 6th edition.
Just look at all those the Plasma Pistol and Boltgun upgrades that aren't there!
But just look at what is there...
-Min/Maxed Veterans stuffed with 3x Plasma Guns and a ML heavy weapons team plus a Chimera
-A psyker as the mandatory HQ -2 squadrons of the most daft builds of LR Exterminators one could think of.
Also there's a ton of elements that should be listed or mentioned but aren't. What type of Veterans were they? What did the Veteran Sergeant have?
First IG list I found on pg.1 in Army Lists. So 10th ed. :
Oh wow. Look at all the power weapons and plasma pistols on various characters, now that they're free. Who'da thunk it!?!?
Serious question:
What else are you going to put on a Tempestor Scion or an Infantry Squad Sergeant? They get a pistol+CCW(Chainsword for the Tempestor) to start with. The Infantry Squad Sergeant can replace their Laspistol with a Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, or Plasma Pistol and their Close Combat Weapon. The Tempestor comes with a Chainsword(can replace with Power Weapon or Power Fist) and a Hotshot Laspistol(can replace with Plasma Pistol or Bolt Pistol).
Even if points were being paid, most people would probably be upgrading them.
Auto guns have since this description, had countless examples of their wielders referring to them as "Archaic slug throwers" that do a lot more physical damage, but are also prone to jamming, running out of ammo, breaking, etc.
Because when being discussed in that context, they were archaic slug throwers?
My description of them as .50 cals is based on a very bad detail writer, (Abnett) using loosey goosey terms interchangeably. He describes Trooper Bragg "picking up an Assault Cannon" and wielding it like a flamer. He obviously means Autocannon.
Dude, the events you're referring to are from a book that's positively ancient at this point. It was an assault cannon, which at the time of writing, was a thing that Sentinels could take.
He also refers to an Autogun as a belt fed "point fifty" in "Only in Death".
...you really, really, really need to get the Sabbat Worlds Crusade source books. It's a belt-fed autogun. We literally have one on the Cadian upgrade sprue that came out not long ago.
Point is, Autogun is a term to define literally anything short of a Boltgun in 40k. Depending on the Author.
lol, don't read the Horus Heresy list for auto weapons then. Vanquisher Battle Cannons are under that listing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/10 22:59:55
If a Plasma Pistol cost 5 points on a Tempestor, you wouldn’t see them very much.
If they cost 10 points, almost never.
If they cost 1 point, they’d be pretty common as points filler.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: If a Plasma Pistol cost 5 points on a Tempestor, you wouldn’t see them very much.
If they cost 10 points, almost never.
If they cost 1 point, they’d be pretty common as points filler.
And if they were free?
@Kanluwen: Go ahead and randomly sample lists and see what you come up with. I'm glancing around at old lists and I sure don't see a lot of plasma pistols and bolters around. Occasionally I see people throw power weapons on sergeants, and then remove them upon feedback, lol.
marines having super bolt weapons makes sense. Super weapons for super soldiers.
This raises a question. Do you and OP want people to engage more often in this level of thinking? It's satisfying for you, but do you think you would benefit if lots of people also used this kind of reasoning just for warhammer.
I can’t speak for mad doc but for me, he raised a point, and it did make me look at something in a new way. Personally, I think it’s always a good idea to take a fresh look at familiar things, it might make you appreciate them more. I know form experience that mad doc is like me in that he loves the old lore/fluff, and looking through the new stuff for things that connect with us like the old stuff does is a big part of the hobby experience for me.
As for “this level of thinking”, I’ll try and ignore the barbed tone as best I can. Marines are always described as super soldiers, that is their thing, they always were supposed to have the best equipment. All that happened was their weapons became more ubiquitous so it makes sense when re-inventing them to re-invent their equipment as superior again.
Nothing about this thread was supposed to be ground breaking or deeply philosophical, but it make some background stuff fit more nicely into the setting. If you don’t like it, move on, plenty of other threads out there. As for for the benefit of others, I think there are plants of people in the community who could do with relaxing a bit and looking at the good in the hobby a bit more rather than being so negative all the time. It’s nice to see a thread that’s trying to explore a positive view point.
JNAProductions wrote: If a Plasma Pistol cost 5 points on a Tempestor, you wouldn’t see them very much.
If they cost 10 points, almost never.
If they cost 1 point, they’d be pretty common as points filler.
And if they were free?
@Kanluwen: Go ahead and randomly sample lists and see what you come up with. I'm glancing around at old lists and I sure don't see a lot of plasma pistols and bolters around. Occasionally I see people throw power weapons on sergeants, and then remove them upon feedback, lol.
There are still some people who design their armies by what is represented in the lore though, points or no points. Just because you can doesn’t mean you have to.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/11 07:12:02
I maintain that the differences are mainly felt outside the scope of a single 40k engagement.
Things like reliability and long-term durability. Marine bolters seem to be exceptionally durable and passed down for generations of battle brothers- Guard bolters likely have a shorter service life. Marine bolters are probably more reliable than most comparable firearms. They will mesh with the Marine autosenses in a sophisticated way. Marine boltguns are also built to accommodate the Marine propensity for hitting their enemies, so they need to be more heavily built to avoid damage when braining an Ork.
None of the logistical things really impact a single 40k game, and they are a bit too granular for campaigns unless your campaign is very crunchy. They could factor into something like Kill Team or RPGs if the designers wanted to.
The accuracy bonuses I think are reflected in ballistic skill. Marines are never less than BS4/3+. Even Scouts fresh out of implantation are BS4, despite also being WS4. Compare to an Imperial Stormtrooper, who is also intensively trained from childhood, doesn't spend a bunch of time in surgery and adapting to new implants and rapidly-changing body parts, and still only achieves a comparable BS but not WS. They still use advanced Imperial targeting equipment.
Veterans are supposed to be the last survivors from mauled regiments- that can be the last 5-10 soldiers from a regiment of 3000+ troopers. There is a real selection pressure for the most skilled troopers in that case, I don't think they are a great comparison. Hitting on a 2+ is very rare even amongst Marines, that looks to represent incredibly precise marksmanship.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Ballistic skill does not reflect the difference adequately even at the level of abstraction of 50+ models per side.
The B in BS predates rogue trader, it comes from a preindustrial game where shooting is not as important and still sometimes called Bow Skill.
A small team of armed police or noncombatants from the territorial army could be in a firefight with a team from the special forces, both in structures they can't leave. Even with identical weaponry, the less skilled side should get absolutely massacred, in a way that the difference between bs3+ and bs4+ does not provide. One side is better at keeping its head down, better at keeping track of the enemy in order to nail them when they pop their head up, and better at fire discipline.
Then there's a difference between a guard trooper firing a 30 pound bolt gun and a big beefy templar neophyte or wolf blood claw in self- stabilizing armour firing a 30lb bolt gun. That's even though both of those marine units traditionally do have the lower bs4+. For several reasons the lasgun, bolt gun, and plasma gun all have the same rapid fire 1 type as each other and across all users. This even though they're very different in mass, anilityntonsustain fire, and easiness to reload.
These differences totally belong in a game the size of 40k. Many armies use +1 attack and Ld to mean extra experience or troop quality. Drukhari do it, marines, sisters, and guard sergeants. Its easy to say when an infantry model shoots infantry and has more attacks on its profile it causes -1 to save, and if it has fewer attacks then the target gets +1 sv. It's easy to say that under some circumstances a model can take a Ld test and when it lasses it gets precision shots and inflicts two wounds for every successful wound roll. These are very possible and desirable effects in this half-company scale game, and they make a Marine with boltgun and higher stats much more "super" than a human with the same bolt gun.
The importance of being super strong when carrying a weapon is easy to show too. 40k has usually had very little of an overwatch or reaction phase. However you can say it a models S ornT is the same.or better than a gun's S, then it can participate at full bs in whatever overwatch phase there is, and if the guns strength is higher then it can't.
All this can show that a marine, since he already has more attacks, Ld, S and T, does effectively have super powers when firing the same 30lb bolt gun as Ripper Jackson has.
*It's true there aren't base attacks since 2023. They have always effectively existed and are very under used in units like Celestians, greenwing company veterans, trueborn, flash gits, HH veteran squads, and other veteran units that people don't want to put in combat.
From second edition onward bolt weapons became more and more prevalent, heavy weapons, character models.
I was curious about when bolt weapons and plasma pistols started to appear in the model ranges, so did a bit of digging.
(Images in spoiler tag).
These first images are from models released in Rogue Trader way back in 1987. Even in this earliest wave, bolt pistols and bolters are common. There is a plasma gun but I don't see any plasma pistols.
Spoiler:
Bolt pistols and to a lesser extent bolters remain common on IG sergeants, officers, and commissars going forwards.
The first example I could find of a plasma pistol (based on Lexicanum's miniature page) was this beastman officer from 1989:
Spoiler:
I didn't see any others until the Tallarn Captain/Al'rahem in 1996:
Spoiler:
In 3rd edition, plasma pistols become more common on models with the Cadian, Catachan and Vostroyan metals all having at least one (with power sword too) and the 5th edition plastic command squads including one. The Last Chancers set had two (the Colonel and Shiv).
So Guard with bolt weapons were common from the get go. Plasma pistols did get noticeably more present in 3rd edition.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2024/04/11 12:16:46
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Insectum7 wrote: Hey man, in a universe where you can recharge your lasgun magazine by throwing it in a fire, I'm ok with caseless ammunition.
Point, set, and MATCH. I concede to your logic and mastery of fluff good sir.
Seriously, I am kicking myself I forgot you could cook ammo back into life. Third law be damned and all that. Also the first law of 40k Forums, "Thou shalt not use logic".
To be honest, caseless ammunition not being practical for military use today doesn't mean it couldn't be practical with the technology 30000-40000 thousand years in the future. We also don't have practical laser rifles or armoured exoskeletons.
From what I understand of the issues with caseless ammo today, the problem is mainly one of material science. If the right material(s) are discovered, it could become practical very quickly.
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
JNAProductions wrote: If a Plasma Pistol cost 5 points on a Tempestor, you wouldn’t see them very much.
If they cost 10 points, almost never.
If they cost 1 point, they’d be pretty common as points filler.
And if they were free?
@Kanluwen: Go ahead and randomly sample lists and see what you come up with. I'm glancing around at old lists and I sure don't see a lot of plasma pistols and bolters around. Occasionally I see people throw power weapons on sergeants, and then remove them upon feedback, lol.
There are still some people who design their armies by what is represented in the lore though, points or no points. Just because you can doesn’t mean you have to.
Of course there are/were people who will design for lore or aesthetic, and I never said this didn't happen. (And I often do so myself, to an extent) What I did say was that the options showed up a lot more when the upgrades became free, and I believe we have access to data on this very site to back that up.
Out of the 4 Guard "Infantry Squads" that exist now? Only the Infantry Squad(a legacy unit in all but classification) and Death Korps of Krieg squads have a Plasma Pistol option for their Sergeants.
-Catachans get no options for their Sergeants. Just a Laspistol + CCW
-Cadians get a Bolt Pistol to replace the Laspistol OR replacing Chainsword+Laspistol for Drum-Fed Autogun.
Death Korps & Infantry Squads both get the Power Weapon+Plasma Pistol option or the Boltgun option.
And none of those units can double up on the same special weapon, let alone triple up like the list you posted from 6E.
This is relating to something I've harped upon for I don't know how long. Guard don't get options that other factions do, even when kits allow for it. Any other faction? The unit leader gets the same weapon as the squad plus the options.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/11 15:45:24
No one is here to discuss how hard the "poor sad guard factions" have it. Considering there are literal factions that haven't seen an update in a decade, you guys got an entirely new model line essentially, but are forced to break up the Veteran murder plasma death squads, and it's all tears?
Staaaahp. Guard are fine.
Primaris Weapons are snazzy. I like to look of the new Bolt Rifles.
The topic is background and Marines now, in my opinion, feeling suitably equipped.
The tangent is of course a valid topic unto itself. Just, not for the background sub-forum.
Arguably the thread topic isn't a lore question The lore is that Marines have substantially different gear now, they didn't before. The discussion is about opinions on this being a good change or not. The "tangent" is quite relevant to that in the sense that people have expressed they did not feel Marine weapons were special after Guard toted them on characters... but Guard characters have always had access to them (from Rogue Trader onwards) and they have become particularly prevalent due to rules changes, not lore changes. So the opinions are informed by a mismatch between tabletop composition and perceptions of lore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/04/11 18:06:41
ChargerIIC wrote: If algae farm paste with a little bit of your grandfather in it isn't Grimdark I don't know what is.
Flinty wrote: The original Rogue Trader description of autoguns is below. Small calibre explicitly noted, which I wouldn’t consider a .50 cal to be.
Problems: These descriptions appear to be written by someone who knows literally zero about conventional firearms. At least in the 20th Century. There was only 1 ever Caseless ammo small arms weapon system ever to make it past planning into basic development. The H&K G11. It used a Caseless 4.7mm round. About 15 or so were ever actually made, and the ammo was never actually sent into production. For obvious reasons, this weapon was a complete flop. Caseless ammo is/was a futuristic trope that never actually made it. If it gets wet, it's useless. It's fragile. It's prone to exploding when near fire (surprisingly everywhere on a battlefield).
Auto guns have since this description, had countless examples of their wielders referring to them as "Archaic slug throwers" that do a lot more physical damage, but are also prone to jamming, running out of ammo, breaking, etc.
My description of them as .50 cals is based on a very bad detail writer, (Abnett) using loosey goosey terms interchangeably. He describes Trooper Bragg "picking up an Assault Cannon" and wielding it like a flamer. He obviously means Autocannon. He also refers to an Autogun as a belt fed "point fifty" in "Only in Death". Point is, Autogun is a term to define literally anything short of a Boltgun in 40k. Depending on the Author.
Point of order about the G-11 and caseless ammo. West Germany was fully prepared to begin production after 1000 units were made but due to the reunification with East Germany and the surplus of hundreds of thousands of Kalashnikov rifles it was no longer financially expedient. The technical issues involved were never considered to be serious enough to stop production, as the issues of cook off and fragility were subsequently addressed. Russian currently uses caseless full auto grenade launchers, for example.
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
The lore is that Marines have substantially different gear now, they didn't before. The discussion is about opinions on this being a good change or not. The "tangent" is quite relevant to that in the sense that people have expressed they did not feel Marine weapons were special after Guard toted them on characters... but Guard characters have always had access to them (from Rogue Trader onwards) and they have become particularly prevalent due to rules changes, not lore changes. So the opinions are informed by a mismatch between tabletop composition and perceptions of lore.