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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Gal Custodes are nice (if so few people can become super warriors why cut your recruitment pool in half?) but I really want the Misters of Silence. I mean if pariahs are one in a billion then why only use women? And unlike Marines and Custodes there's no geneseed/whatever issue that requires them to be one gender.

Cool, I'm on board with that.

Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Sisters of Silence are almost certainly going to suffer as a result.

Because they were doing so well before?

For somebody who supposedly wants to see more female representation, it is curious that you (in common with seemingly everybody else) are seemingly unconcerned with actually supporting female (sub-)factions in terms of background and/or models.

Having fem Custodes doesn't change me wanting more of everything else. I'd love some more SoS. Not sure why you'd think that I wouldn't want that.

I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to suspect that having a new fluff option for Custodes means that Sisters of Silence are suddenly going to miss out on new stuff, implying that GW was going to be giving them new stuff in the the first place which they won't get because... of a new fluff extract.

Or, to put it another way - I see some people claiming that "Sister of Battle are just like female Space Marines!!!" If we entertain that notion, then wouldn't that imply that the release of Primaris Marines should've shot dead any chance of plastic Sisters?

Clearly, something doesn't add up with that logic, so perhaps it's best to leave that by the wayside, and rejoice in our new Custodes options.

Almost as if the desire isn't really for good female 'representation'...

Keep making assumptions - I'm happy with my Custodes.

I appreciate your ability to stay level-headed in fhese conversations

Selfcontrol wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1c3993d/adeptus_custodes_codex_confirms_the_existence_of/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvD5s_iiEU

gakky picture comes from the new Codex.

Personally, I like it. Not only it was never stated that Custodes were only male (even in old lore, unlike SM), but it further cements the fact that Space Marines are "only" mass produced soldiers (even though they are pretty formidable soldiers), a brutal tool, while the Custodes are considered the pinnacle of humanity (and now all humanity).

I'm disappointed by Twitter's reaction to the news, but I'm happy with it.

lol, let's not pretend that the poor reaction is confined to twitter.

Also, at least on twitter I can mute the term to not have it showing up everywhere to take all the oxygen out of discussions.

 Kanluwen wrote:
lol, let's not pretend that the poor reaction is confined to twitter.

Also, at least on twitter I can mute the term to not have it showing up everywhere to take all the oxygen out of discussions.

Fair point, well made.

On the topic of femstodes, this one made my day

 tauist wrote:
On the topic of femstodes, this one made my day

with how long-lived custodians can be, it's only right

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Sisters of Silence are almost certainly going to suffer as a result.

Because they were doing so well before?

For somebody who supposedly wants to see more female representation, it is curious that you (in common with seemingly everybody else) are seemingly unconcerned with actually supporting female (sub-)factions in terms of background and/or models.

Almost as if the desire isn't really for good female 'representation'...

Sisters of Silence have received a grand total of one kit (plus two Hersey-locked Foregworld models), and never even got models for most of their Heresy era units. Their background for 40K amounts to '...something something they're back, I guess?' But rather than advocate for them to get better support, a mention of a single femstodian is considered a win instead.

If Talons of the Emperor weren't still an afterthought that just exist because of the plastic models that were made for 30K I'd say these things are not exclusive. GW treats Custodes and SoS as one faction, so a single wave of models would help both. Bring that strange SoS Transport to plastic and into 40K, give us the Custodes jetpack guys (and gals), some SoS chars and at least a 2nd unit, the shooty upgrades for both and you got a proper faction.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If Talons of the Emperor weren't still an afterthought that just exist because of the plastic models that were made for 30K I'd say these things are not exclusive. GW treats Custodes and SoS as one faction, so a single wave of models would help both. Bring that strange SoS Transport to plastic and into 40K, give us the Custodes jetpack guys (and gals), some SoS chars and at least a 2nd unit, the shooty upgrades for both and you got a proper faction.

I'd love a SoS unit that doesn't feel chaff-y, you know? Like, a unit that doesn't just feel like a way to cheaply make up bodies for a Talons list? Something almost a bit like Grey Knight Interceptors, for Silent Sisters - a unit that has short-range teleporters, and uses their "Blank"-ness as a way to protect themselves from the warp as they pass through it. Keep the Custodes as the anvil/durable tanks, and have the SoS as these debuffing monsters that blink around the battlefield and spread terror where they go.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
If Talons of the Emperor weren't still an afterthought that just exist because of the plastic models that were made for 30K I'd say these things are not exclusive. GW treats Custodes and SoS as one faction, so a single wave of models would help both. Bring that strange SoS Transport to plastic and into 40K, give us the Custodes jetpack guys (and gals), some SoS chars and at least a 2nd unit, the shooty upgrades for both and you got a proper faction.

I'd love a SoS unit that doesn't feel chaff-y, you know? Like, a unit that doesn't just feel like a way to cheaply make up bodies for a Talons list? Something almost a bit like Grey Knight Interceptors, for Silent Sisters - a unit that has short-range teleporters, and uses their "Blank"-ness as a way to protect themselves from the warp as they pass through it. Keep the Custodes as the anvil/durable tanks, and have the SoS as these debuffing monsters that blink around the battlefield and spread terror where they go.

the SoS unit i'd most love to see in plastic is the beastmaster unit. it's just a really weird unit that isn't like anything else in the imperium's roster at the moment, let alone in custodians. even if it's just the same sisters kit but with animal companions, it succeeds in being something with a completely different board presence

I have other lore issues with this story. How are they fitting a cyclonic torpedo into a teleportarium? And how is the teleportarium able to teleport something as large as a cyclonic torpedo?

It's compact

 Crimson wrote:

Charax wrote:

Wonder if the change is referenced anywhere else or if they just quietly removed the restriction and didn't hang a lampshade on it.

I think it would be for the best if they just pretended it was always so and not make a big deal about it. Same way they handled the same issue with the imperial knights.

That seems to be the approach...

My thoughts (that nobody asked for) on this.
1) the news itself (female Custodes are now cannon) : I don't mind. While there is some minor contradiction with existing lore (notably the Emperor referring to his Custodes as "Men", as well as recruiting being done among the sons of Earth's nobility), the process of making Custodes is so custom and scantily described in the lore that it could be made believable (unlike Female Space Marines, for which I think they missed the boat with the Primaris introduction if this is something they wanted to do).

2) The delivery. This is where I have an issue, which is two-fold. First, AFAIK the only mention is done in a single 2-pages story in the new Codex, whereas this is a major topic that should get better exposure and an explanation, especially as GW has been trying to have in-universe explanation for new concepts for some time now (Primaris, Leagues of Votann, new Tyranids, Warmaster Titans...) instead of the handwaving of previous editions. This is really "Somehow Palpatine returned" level of storytelling here. Secondly, GW has been in retcon/gaslighting mode on social medias, and I don't appreciate that at all.

3) The reaction of the community has been absolutely atrocious on both sides of the issue. On the one hand you get displays of pure unaltered misogyny, and on the other hand you see people who do not seem happy with what they are getting, but rather happy with scoring Internet points and with rubbing the other side's nose in the dirt.

My idea for what could have been an in-universe explanation: the first generations of Custodes, the ones in which the Emperor himself took a personal part in the selection & transformation, were all males. Not because the process didn't work on females (it did) but because the Emperor was/is a misogynistic donkey-cave (there is a fun part in the End & the Death Part 3 where Horus is daydreaming while kicking the Emperor around, and thinking that he will be a much better Emperor once the current one is done for, and he will have better sons, and of course daughters).
After the Heresy, the Custodes were nearly spent as a Combat Force (because of the War in the Webway and the Siege of Terra), and also add to adapt to their new task of protecting not just an Emperor who used to be much more than able to protect himself and suddenly was a sitting (eh) duck, but also the whole Golden Throne. They needed reinforcements fast (without lowering their standards, of course), but their usual recruiting stock (Earth nobility) had also been mostly depleted because of the Siege of Terra. That's where they started to recruit/make female Custodes (which were always possible, just not done out of custom). Since they mostly kept to themselves in the 10 000 years before Guilliman's return, that could explain why there was no mention of female Custodes during the Heresy (there were none) or until now.

 Gert wrote:
It's compact

Getting a weapon the size of an office building down to a package less than twice the height of a man is a pretty neat trick. Makes you wonder why they don't just do this all the time.

The full snippet a page back gives you the idea that its one of those super rare things that needs to be kept safe and the only reason its there is because of the authority of the Custodian in question.

CorwinB wrote:
The delivery. This is where I have an issue, which is two-fold. First, AFAIK the only mention is done in a single 2-pages story in the new Codex, whereas this is a major topic that should get better exposure and an explanation, especially as GW has been trying to have in-universe explanation for new concepts for some time now (Primaris, Leagues of Votann, new Tyranids, Warmaster Titans...) instead of the handwaving of previous editions. This is really "Somehow Palpatine returned" level of storytelling here. Secondly, GW has been in retcon/gaslighting mode on social medias, and I don't appreciate that at all.

I don't see it as gaslighting, but perhaps that's just my view on it.

I don't think they need to explicitly state that it's a retcon - it wouldn't hurt if they chose to, but I don't think they *need* to. I'm also personally pretty fond of the understated "yeah, this is a thing, it's normal" - I think if they HAD done a big song and dance about it, it might have seemed more performative, potentially. I don't mind it being a retcon, but honestly, given ADB's initial comments (and the lore writeups in, I think book 7 of HH1), Custodes weren't ever confirmed male-only until the 8th and 9th edition Codexes (if I'm not wrong) - in which case, would ALSO be a retcon. Ultimately, I'm used to GW retconning things. This is no different, and it's clear that they want us to carry on as if fem Custodes were always present - and I'm quite okay with that.

If they had acknowledged "hey, so, we wrote stuff in a way that wasn't inclusive, our bad, we're retconning to be more inclusive", I think we'd be seeing even more of a meltdown from certain folks.

 insaniak wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Charax wrote:

Wonder if the change is referenced anywhere else or if they just quietly removed the restriction and didn't hang a lampshade on it.

I think it would be for the best if they just pretended it was always so and not make a big deal about it. Same way they handled the same issue with the imperial knights.

That seems to be the approach...

Huh, neat. A good example of gaslighting.

that's not what gaslighting means. this is just a retcon

CorwinB has pretty much covered my thoughts. I am very happy that that have made this canon…but the blunt-force retcon is annoyingl.

I would much prefer them have written in that girls were now being accepted due to both the high casualties and expanded role of the Custodes in the current fluff.

It wasted an opportunity to weave a cool bit of narrative into the story.

Greyknight7777 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
It's compact

Getting a weapon the size of an office building down to a package less than twice the height of a man is a pretty neat trick. Makes you wonder why they don't just do this all the time.

Depends entirely on the scale of the required detonation.

Those for torpedoes are intended for Exterminatus, the most deliberately widespread and indiscriminate applications, which presumably requires a hefty payload/worky bit for whatever it is a Cyclonic Warhead actually does.

Think of it like Nukes. We tend to think of stuff like ICBMs and the bombs dropped on Japan. Yet, the Fatman of Fallout is based (quite loosely if memory serves) on real world attempts to make short ranged, infantry support Nuclear artillery. All are pretty devastating, and all different sizes. Indeed I’m fairly sure it’s possible to make a Nuclear hand grenade using the same technology - just with the inherent problem of throwing it far enough away its blast doesn’t also get the squad deploying it.

The keywords at play here are compact, and warhead. The torpedo shown in the drawing is, well, a torpedo. Warhead, casing, propulsion system, fuel and no doubt some level of armour, and perhaps the two-stage example, where we’d need to add in a Melta charge intended it allow the Cylconic Warhead to detonate within the crust or core of a planet for maximum deff. The cyclonic warhead itself therefore remains of completely uncertain size - and but one application of the underlying principles. One I think we can fairly safely assume to be very large scale on a ship to planet torpedo.

I don't think it's gas lighting, so much as GW having a very different view of how their books work to that of many fans.

People seem to see each codex as an extension of the previous one, a continuing story.

GW don't, as far as I can see. This Custodes codex isn't a continuation of the previous one. It replaces it. This book, as of time of printing, is what Custodes are and, so far as the 40k universe is concerned always have been, and anything written in a previous book is largely irrelevant. As of now, there have always been female Custodians.

Edit - this same logic is how Marines periodically get new units that they've 'always' had.

 StudentOfEtherium wrote:
that's not what gaslighting means. this is just a retcon

It is, but they way they're approaching this in the way of "There has always been female Custodes" is gaslighting.

Worth keeping in mind Marines weren’t originally genhanced, and Primarch was just an honorific/rank. And that the entirety of the Horus Heresy sprang forth from a side panel which was Just Filler.

In 40K, canon is fluid. Always has been, always will be.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Worth keeping in mind Marines weren’t originally genhanced, and Primarch was just an honorific/rank. And that the entirety of the Horus Heresy sprang forth from a side panel which was Just Filler.

In 40K, canon is fluid. Always has been, always will be.

Ineed. In the N&R thread, someone mentioned the Custodes existing in a bunch of novels with no mention of women in the ranks. Thing is, over the course of the three thousand or so Horus Heresy novels, all of the Marine Legions also wound up with a bunch of signature units, equipment and organisational structures that were 'always' the way that Legion had been, but that weren't mentioned at all until they suddenly appeared in book #346... around the time the studio had added that option to the model range.

The 40K universe is constantly evolving... but when the primary faction in that setting is written to be largely stagnant, there's only so much that the setting can actually evolve. The rest has to be accomplished by re-writing it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Those for torpedoes are intended for Exterminatus

Is there another kind of cyclonic weapon that isn't meant for planetary destruction mentioned in lore?

I’m fairly sure it’s possible to make a Nuclear hand grenade using the same technology

I am certain that it's not. The conventional explosives required for an implosion device alone would preclude a hand grenade, to say nothing of the weight of the minimum amount of fissile material to achieve a successful chain reaction.

The cyclonic warhead itself therefore remains of completely uncertain size

I'm fairly certain that what is depicted is an enormous device. If there is a depiction of a cyclonic weapon that isn't bigger than a house, then by all means illuminate me.

Also also?

In a game known for changing its background more often than some teenagers change their undies?

What does it matter? What does it matter really? What possible tangible impact can “oh hey, Custards are dudes and ladies now” have on your life, or your army?

Other changes? Squigs being Tyranid organisms made from Orks, rescued and adopted by Orky boarding parties (itself a retcon then retconned). Genestealer Cults used to be quite willing to be consumed, now not so much at all, with their Purestrains eventually turning on the rest of the brood and Cult once the Hive Fleet has its napkin on for dindins. C’Tan were once just an extinct, highly advanced Xenos species. Old One were Old Slaan. The Chimera was an adaptation of the Basilisk chassis, not the other way around.

Heck, when flyers (Lightning and Thunderbolt) were first introduced to Epic Space Marine, around 1994 or so? It was said The Imperium had only recently rediscovered powered flight.

It’s 40k. Its fluid. And from a background perspective? That’s where the fun lies. Because there are many, many nooks and crannies of conflicting background for sad acts like me to obsess over and try to rationalise through conversation.

Like the two versions of the Necron background not being mutually exclusive, just the same story from differing perspectives and “truths”. We may well be down to just four whole C’Tan, with The Deceiver having given the Necrons the means to shatter and enclave the others, barring the Void Dragon, Deceiver, Nightbringer and that other one I think is just called The Other but I honestly can’t remember. Because when you’ve provided shiny new bodies, and given one of them complete control over the rest? It’s absolutely no bother to just….Write Yourself Out Of That History Because If Nobody Remembers You Exist Nobody Is Going To Bother Coming After You.

Greyknight7777 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Those for torpedoes are intended for Exterminatus

Is there another kind of cyclonic weapon that isn't meant for planetary destruction mentioned in lore?

I’m fairly sure it’s possible to make a Nuclear hand grenade using the same technology

I am certain that it's not. The conventional explosives required for an implosion device alone would preclude a hand grenade, to say nothing of the weight of the minimum amount of fissile material to achieve a successful chain reaction.

The cyclonic warhead itself therefore remains of completely uncertain size

I'm fairly certain that what is depicted is an enormous device. If there is a depiction of a cyclonic weapon that isn't bigger than a house, then by all means illuminate me.

Right there. In that quote. Look, here it is again!

The Inferno Pistol was once singular. The signature weapon of Commander Dante. Until it wasn’t.

Super Heavy Grade Plasma weapons could only be mounted on large fortification or bunkers due to the requirement of a plasma reactor to power it. Until they weren’t with the advent of the Plasma Blastgun toting Stormblade.

Sentinels used to carry Assault Cannons, until they didn’t anymore.

And so on and so forth.

Citing a questionable passage as evidence for why the passage isn't questionable is what's called a circular argument.

So I think people are stretching the definition of a retcon in this context.

Marines were 'canonically' only male because of actual supposed incompatibilities. If you started saying they were always compatible with women, then that's a retcon.

If you said 'belisarius cawl invented a new geneseed that makes it work for women', that's 'lore development'.

A retcon is an explicit retroactive continuity change (that's what it's short for).

Custodians were never described as being restricted to men, that the process only worked on men like marines. What we have is text that says 'the sons of nobility were given'. There is nothing in that that creates an actual in-universe barrier.

That's the equivalent of the 'men under arms' sisters exception.

It is a flimsy argument to say that women being custodes is retconning this - in the same way that 'mankind' describes all of humanity. Our language is inherently patriarchal, so using that to claim it was a truth that custodes must all be male is a bit rich.



The whataboutisms concerning male sisters of battle are also irrelevant. And unlike marines, this was designed in-universe to be an exception - the army was originally full of men until the decree passive. The decree passive can also be legislated away just as easily.



There is a fundamentally bigger exclusionary principle at play with 'anti girl geneseed' than enacting laws, or cultural norms. It's saying that on a fundamental level men and women are so different that girls can't be this thing BECAUSE they are a girl, not because some old rich people decreed it as such.

I'd have far less issue with the only male marines if it was due to the 'decree testicles' (pronounce like heracles.... :p) because like the sisters, it's cultural thing that can be changed easily. By making it a genetic thing it's far more prenicious.

 Hellebore wrote:
A retcon is an explicit retroactive continuity change (that's what it's short for).

Custodians were never described as being restricted to men, that the process only worked on men like marines. What we have is text that says 'the sons of nobility were given'. There is nothing in that that creates an actual in-universe barrier.

Not really seeing any wiggle room in the statement "All Custodes begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra".

All. Custodes.

Not "some" Custodes
Not "many" Custodes
Not "a lot of" Custodes
All Custodes

"All Custodes begin their lives as the infant sons of the noble houses of Terra" and "There have always been female custodes" are mutually exclusive statements, which does indeed make this retroactive - if they had said "There are now female custodes, then perhaps not, but you can't get a statement much more explicitly retroactive that stating something "has always been" a way.

And no it's not the same as new units getting introduced, no previous lore said "Space marines definitely only have access to the currently available units and nothing else", so introducing things like centurions doesn't directly contradict what came before, this does.