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Crispy78 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

That I understand, but honestly that is the gakky thing, if your job has technical skills that it is about, then that I why you should get promoted.
I get that isnt how it works, and will never work, it does make me wonder, why bother sometimes.
God.......is this what being an adult in the workforce is about? I have a long road ahead of me.

Depends on the job obviously, but it's often the case that as you progress, even a technical role becomes less about the actual technical stuff and more about managing the people that do the technical stuff, prioritising workload and so on.

That's kind of where I am now. I can either progress by moving into a more specialised field and learning a pretty much completely new skillset, or I can progress by going more into management and getting less technical.

It definitely depends on the job, but generally speaking there are way more people qualified to do the job than there are people who would be great fits for your culture. It's not only about how many widgets you can make in an hour because how well you get along with your coworkers impacts their productivity. Id rather have someone who makes 80 widgets an hour and everyone likes than someone who can make 100 but nobody wants to work with.

I’d say that’s factually accurate.

All work should be a team effort. When everyone is pulling in roughly the same direction, the better the results.

Hence my own distaste for ineffective management. Even if it’s a colleague that’s a clear problem (sitting around not contributing etc), it’s on the manager to sort that, one way or the other.

Hmmm. I disagree that everything is a team effort or should be, though usually some level of collaboration is required. Though my employment history probably influences that (I was a specialist researcher before I became a Physics teacher and I am usually the only Physics teacher in my school, so I generally have to get on with things by myself. I prefer that, I always hated group work )

I don't mind group work, as long as it's tbe right group. I'm a technical person, and by nature fairly direct - I'm a Dutchman through and through. I don't tolerate bs, although I do appreciate people who can talk the talk to get me what I need to get the job done.
So some people others find hard to work with, I get along with swimningly, and others everybody likes I get along with like a house on fire.

 Da Boss wrote:
Hmmm. I disagree that everything is a team effort or should be, though usually some level of collaboration is required. Though my employment history probably influences that (I was a specialist researcher before I became a Physics teacher and I am usually the only Physics teacher in my school, so I generally have to get on with things by myself. I prefer that, I always hated group work )

For me, it’s a matter of less productive team members being open to mentoring.

It’s not always possible, horse and water for example. But when you can have some one on one chats with someone and you see that lightbulb above their head fizz into life? That’s totally worth the initial frustration.

For example (and I’m painfully aware I’m being egotistical here) I’m known and respected at work for just ‘getting to the point’. It’s something I’ve always had a knack for, and during my mentoring years I’ve learned how to show others in different ways exactly how my thought process goes.

Drilling past the drivel and looking for the heart of the matter is important. Showing someone different ways of parsing the information pays dividends.

For me, the trick is never to present oneself as an absolute authority (lord knows I’m not!) but to show things in a different light.

It's not just teamwork and collaboration. It's about the work environment. The interactions you have with coworkers you think you don't impact matter.

Aye. We have recently had turnover of staff and the dynamic has shifted in a way that makes everyday interactions a bit more tense. There is also a difficulty with different cultures in my workplace, as our boss is romanian, I am Irish, and the rest are British. The British staff are all really conscientious and hard working but they tend to communicate indirectly, which can leave my romanian boss (who is a lovely man) at a bit of a loss at times!

I work as a software developer for a medium sized company. I really enjoy it.
Programming enterprise software may not sound fun, but it pays well. I don't have to work crazy hours, I get interesting logic problems to solve, and I get to create things which are used by people around the world.
Also I have a team I get along well with.

 Polonius wrote:
Here's the thing with technical skills: they are, on the whole, easier to teach than soft skills, especially since people try harder to learn technical skills.

Well put. As someone who has worked in IT for my entire adult career, the refrain has always been "We can teach you how to do a process, we can't teach you how not to be an donkey-cave".

Hmmm. I have good soft skills for sure, I know that. But I have never seen it as something that is easy to teach, that is true. Just something you kind of have, or don't have.
Teachers who have poor soft skills are likely to struggle. But at the upper levels, poor technical skills will also bite you in the backside.

The further you up the ladder, the more soft skills are essential to get anything done. You see, as the "Boss" my success is not based at all on what I personally do. It is based on what my team can do. My role on that team is to provide some direction, guidance, and support to build the results to drive us through the roadblocks to get something done.

Therefore, soft skills are the name of the game. What does X, Y, and Z need to see and hear to support the effort. What does A, B, and C need to hear to get their part done? What does 1,2 and 3 need to build and do they have the right skills and motivation to do it?

As an efficiency expert I can show you some amazing technical skills, but that is only as useful if I am telling a story you are willing to hear.

 Polonius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
While im still new to work culture i like to think this job is a lot more honest and open then others. It helps that our job is one where we work with alot of kids and it ends up being better.
As too feedback, I get it all the time, its part of the job, like a big part of our evaluations the happen every month is "did they accept the feedback properly throuout the month" and such.
But as too not feeling honest with the culkturally sometimes i feel that. Like it stings when someone got the job who has been there only 6 months and has less of an education than you. they then tell you are not creative enough and they want to work on you with it, when your pretty sure that the person who got it because they are always chipper and happy.
Im not gonna lie and say i wasnt bitter for quite a bit, never let it show though.

Well, a positive attitude will get you promoted faster.

In my experience, promotions tend to be far more about soft skills than about technical skills, at least in any job where you are working with people.

In my experience, it goes to the person who says they can deliver the stars, the sun, and the moon even if they can't deliver s...ewage. But management eats that sort of attitude up with a spoon, and they buy it every. single. time.

I've given up on promotions. I have too much pride in doing the job RIGHT to do a halfway job just to have time leftover to schmooze with.

I work in sales for a large US insurance company, every aspect of my job is based off numbers. Big change from my former job working as a prison guard. Pay is great and I’m good at my job became a senior rep in a 1.5 yrs, dealing with customers is a lot easier then dealing with inmates. Honestly I hate my job, never had a job I liked as an adult. My favorite job I ever had was mowing grass on a big tractor on 50 acres as a kid, Fresh air, birds flying by picking off the insects, nobody bothered me, maintenance on my tractor on rainy days...plan on doing it again someday after retirement

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But for hotsauceman1? It does take time and experience to not only develop certain skills, but to know which skills will be desirable.

You’re young dude, there’s plenty time left. The best advice I can give you is not to merely hear feedback, but to listen.

That was my weakness for a decade and a half. Mostly because nobody gave useful feedback, just ‘you no do good’, without ever defining what ‘good’ was.

Even if it’s negative, so long as it’s constructive, take it on the chin, take it on board. It’s far from easy at first, and can leave you feeling pretty beat down when delivered poorly.

But it’s one path on the road to self improvement.

Oh yeah I listen to feedback, infact I seek it out quite a bit from supervisors.
I know I'm young and I still have alot of my life ahead of me. But I can't help but feel alot that I got to get gong or else I'm going to screw myself over.
But as to my job, I'm inclined to believe them and trust them. My job has a 70% turnover rate and they know it's tough. The the reason they told me I didn't get it the first time made sense, I needed to be more creative with my job and I do not do arts and crafts with clients which is what this job would need and they would work on it with me. And when I had a check in a week later(a former supervisor who was bad at their job made a list of all the bad things we all did and sent it to HR before she got laid off. I got in trouble for my crack showing and my feet stinking lol) they said they really want me to stay and not to take this badly and continue to improve.
But I'm dragging on, I have been sitting on this for while and while it was nice to talk to real adults about this, it's turning a bit bloggy lol

You guys who are never getting promotions and are blaming it on being "too technically focused" and losing out to people who can't deliver anything other than smooth talk... I think you should maybe look inward a little and reflect. I'm saying this, hand to heart, trying to be helpful and not crappy.

Either you actually have some unacknowledged problems with your soft skills - which are required to some degree just to function will with other human beings, and increasingly so as your job gets increasingly skilled - or you work at highly dysfunctional organizations, in which case you are wasting your time and should be seeking employment elsewhere (taking whatever steps necessary to make yourself more employable, as needed).

Either way, the next steps belong to you.

Unless, of course, you are happy where you are! In that case, no worries.

 Ouze wrote:
You guys who are never getting promotions and are blaming it on being "too technically focused" and losing out to people who can't deliver anything other than smooth talk... I think you should maybe look inward a little and reflect. I'm saying this, hand to heart, trying to be helpful and not crappy.

Either you actually have some unacknowledged problems with your soft skills - which are required to some degree just to function will with other human beings, and increasingly so as your job gets increasingly skilled - or you work at highly dysfunctional organizations, in which case you are wasting your time and should be seeking employment elsewhere (taking whatever steps necessary to make yourself more employable, as needed).

Either way, the next steps belong to you.

Unless, of course, you are happy where you are! In that case, no worries.

\

This is spot on. The world is full of frustrated guys who can't get over the hump in their careers, but in five minutes, they'll reveal a poor attitude, or lousy communication, or a complete lack of understanding of the context for their job, or some other glaring red flag for advancement.

The best career advice I ever got was from a second line manager about four years ago. She didn't like me very much, but she knew I was looking to promote out of her office. I'd been there about 4-5 months when she just told me that I was intimidating/annoying my coworkers (other supervisors) with my attitude and efforts to get my way through force of will. She couldn't give me specifics, and at first I was pissed at this vague, kind of petty advice. But.. then I made an attempt to tone myself down, be more conciliatory and diplomatic. I supported other people's ideas, and stopped trying to do things my way. Flash forward just over three years, and I eventually get picked up for a promotion to a new office as the director. Suddenly I'm running my own management team, and getting their input and promoting their ideas is key to my success. If I had laughed off what she said, and focused instead on how I had the best ideas on the team, sure, I might have nudged things my way a bit, but I'd also be stuck there doing that job instead of running my own (admittedly much smaller) office.

The thing is, the soft skills that we're talking about are taught, we just forget them. it's about playing nice, letting people take turns. It's about basic leadership skills. If you read your Dale Carnegie (How to win friends and influence people) you're about 60% of the way there.

I'm working on #2 currently - the organisation I work for has actually become dysfunctional.
I work in the field with clients directly, and they're noticing it too, to the point we're losing projects because of it.

 Polonius wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
You guys who are never getting promotions and are blaming it on being "too technically focused" and losing out to people who can't deliver anything other than smooth talk... I think you should maybe look inward a little and reflect. I'm saying this, hand to heart, trying to be helpful and not crappy.

Either you actually have some unacknowledged problems with your soft skills - which are required to some degree just to function will with other human beings, and increasingly so as your job gets increasingly skilled - or you work at highly dysfunctional organizations, in which case you are wasting your time and should be seeking employment elsewhere (taking whatever steps necessary to make yourself more employable, as needed).

Either way, the next steps belong to you.

Unless, of course, you are happy where you are! In that case, no worries.

\

This is spot on. The world is full of frustrated guys who can't get over the hump in their careers, but in five minutes, they'll reveal a poor attitude, or lousy communication, or a complete lack of understanding of the context for their job, or some other glaring red flag for advancement.

The best career advice I ever got was from a second line manager about four years ago. She didn't like me very much, but she knew I was looking to promote out of her office. I'd been there about 4-5 months when she just told me that I was intimidating/annoying my coworkers (other supervisors) with my attitude and efforts to get my way through force of will. She couldn't give me specifics, and at first I was pissed at this vague, kind of petty advice. But.. then I made an attempt to tone myself down, be more conciliatory and diplomatic. I supported other people's ideas, and stopped trying to do things my way. Flash forward just over three years, and I eventually get picked up for a promotion to a new office as the director. Suddenly I'm running my own management team, and getting their input and promoting their ideas is key to my success. If I had laughed off what she said, and focused instead on how I had the best ideas on the team, sure, I might have nudged things my way a bit, but I'd also be stuck there doing that job instead of running my own (admittedly much smaller) office.

The thing is, the soft skills that we're talking about are taught, we just forget them. it's about playing nice, letting people take turns. It's about basic leadership skills. If you read your Dale Carnegie (How to win friends and influence people) you're about 60% of the way there.

This is a great example of how you adjusted your mindset and experienced success after receiving a hard to hear message. Kudos to your supervisor for being direct and honest with you, and even more kudos to you for being self reflective enough to actually accept her feedback. A lot of people fall short on both delivering and receiving this stuff.

Carnegie's book is a solid recommendation. I'm also a big fan of Everybody Matters by Bob Chapman. My management philosophy is heavily influenced by this book. It's all about how treating people really well results in better functioning and productive organizations. As a manager, I find the book useful for stories on management successes. But for anyone who's struggling to understand how a work environment can be more important than just focusing on production numbers, I'd recommend it.

I’m making preparations to leave my current line of work ASAP, once I handle a few loose ends. Got enough stashed away to live for about a year, during which I hope my little business takes off. Can’t come soon enough too.

 lifeafter wrote:
Carnegie's book is a solid recommendation. I'm also a big fan of Everybody Matters by Bob Chapman. My management philosophy is heavily influenced by this book. It's all about how treating people really well results in better functioning and productive organizations. As a manager, I find the book useful for stories on management successes. But for anyone who's struggling to understand how a work environment can be more important than just focusing on production numbers, I'd recommend it. [/size]

I'll have to check that out. My Agency (I work for the federal government) doesn't put a lot of emphasis on management training, to its detriment. I end up learning a lot of stuff on the side. I recommend Dale Carnegie not because it's the best (it's not), but because it's the most generally applicable book on soft skills I've seen. While it's focused on sales and management, it's useful for anybody that works with others.

The other book I got a lot out of was given out by the old director I mentioned above: Crucial Conversations. It's a really great book on how to have tough, productive conversations about sensitive topics. ironically, I ended up using what I learned from that book to confront my director about something she did. It's so valuable, that when somebody asked me why the government was paying to move from Maryland to Georgia for this job, I replied with "because I'm comfortable having tough conversations with tough employees."

Oh my organisation is definitely dysfunctional. But I am also not complaining about not getting a promotion, I don't want one, I would be worse as a manager than I am as a teacher so I don't quite see the point.

It's not necessarily a promotion to manager I'm looking for, but some bloody recognition and less corporate bs would be nice.

 Ouze wrote:
You guys who are never getting promotions and are blaming it on being "too technically focused" and losing out to people who can't deliver anything other than smooth talk... I think you should maybe look inward a little and reflect. I'm saying this, hand to heart, trying to be helpful and not crappy.

Either you actually have some unacknowledged problems with your soft skills - which are required to some degree just to function will with other human beings, and increasingly so as your job gets increasingly skilled - or you work at highly dysfunctional organizations, in which case you are wasting your time and should be seeking employment elsewhere (taking whatever steps necessary to make yourself more employable, as needed).

Either way, the next steps belong to you.

Unless, of course, you are happy where you are! In that case, no worries.

Soft skills are great and all, but if the people getting promotions are doing it because I'm carrying half OR MORE of their workload just so I can get MY job done on time, because they're too busy schmoozing the boss to DO their work in a timely manner...

Well, you can imagine how that might impact one's workplace attitude. Sure, they have GREAT attitudes, they're only doing half their own work! And my attitude sucks, sure, because I'm doing THREE TIMES THE WORK THEY ARE!

I mean I don't really have to worry about carrying others workload, you have your caselaod and that is it at my job.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
You guys who are never getting promotions and are blaming it on being "too technically focused" and losing out to people who can't deliver anything other than smooth talk... I think you should maybe look inward a little and reflect. I'm saying this, hand to heart, trying to be helpful and not crappy.

Either you actually have some unacknowledged problems with your soft skills - which are required to some degree just to function will with other human beings, and increasingly so as your job gets increasingly skilled - or you work at highly dysfunctional organizations, in which case you are wasting your time and should be seeking employment elsewhere (taking whatever steps necessary to make yourself more employable, as needed).

Either way, the next steps belong to you.

Unless, of course, you are happy where you are! In that case, no worries.

Soft skills are great and all, but if the people getting promotions are doing it because I'm carrying half OR MORE of their workload just so I can get MY job done on time, because they're too busy schmoozing the boss to DO their work in a timely manner...

Well, you can imagine how that might impact one's workplace attitude. Sure, they have GREAT attitudes, they're only doing half their own work! And my attitude sucks, sure, because I'm doing THREE TIMES THE WORK THEY ARE!

I have bad news for you. If you want to read it..... keep going. If you don;t want to know, just skip the rest of this post. Keep in mind, it is coming from a place of love.




No one cares about the worker bees that put their head down and get things done. That is the BASELINE for getting promoted. It is all the stuff beyond the core work that matters. No one wants to interview a prospect and hear about "This one time I did what I was supposed to do." They want to hear about all the times you went above and beyond your core role in a way that made life better for the customer, the business, and for your team.

As an executive, my job is to move work down the chain, so I can free up my time to work up the chain. Why are you doing their workload? If you are the one that the work is moving down to.... you need to think about how you do your work so that you can start spending time working up the chain too. It is not about working hard.... it is about working in a way that makes you visible.

If you are not doing the job of the person above you before the position is even available, you aren't going to be moving into that job. As you do more of the person above you's job, that frees up their time to do the job of the person above them. Then, when they move guess who the natural successor is. You. You need to position yourself as the person to do the job before the job is even available.

I find getting a mentor to take me under their wing at least two steps above my current role is very helpful in understanding the promotion process and track within your company. However, to get a mentor you need to take initiative and find one.

Just how it has worked for me. Your mileage may vary.

This all assumes a steep and multi layered hierarchy. Something I see as more common in Anglo-American organisations.

I prefer a flatter hierarchy personally where people are more task focused and less focused on being visible and climbing.

 Vulcan wrote:
Soft skills are great and all, but if the people getting promotions are doing it because I'm carrying half OR MORE of their workload just so I can get MY job done on time, because they're too busy schmoozing the boss to DO their work in a timely manner...

Well, you can imagine how that might impact one's workplace attitude. Sure, they have GREAT attitudes, they're only doing half their own work! And my attitude sucks, sure, because I'm doing THREE TIMES THE WORK THEY ARE!

First, my general philosophy is to take stories like this with a grain of salt. In most organizations I've worked in, the truly exceptional/promotable people do both far more than their share of work, and also have time to schmoozing. My top employees in my office certainly do both, and when I was a production employee I regularly completed 120% or more of my work while spending tons of time BSing with others.

Second... if what you're saying really is true, then who is the chump?

Hmmm. That was a highly dismissive and condescending reply.

 Da Boss wrote:
This all assumes a steep and multi layered hierarchy. Something I see as more common in Anglo-American organisations.

I prefer a flatter hierarchy personally where people are more task focused and less focused on being visible and climbing.

As do I. In fact, one of the first things I typically do in an organization is flatten the hierarchy and democratize the workplace as much as I can. Some organizations cultures can handle it better than others.


I prefer a lot of things, but I also have to deal with what the reality I am living in is.

 Da Boss wrote:
Hmmm. That was a highly dismissive and condescending reply.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree at all.

To cycle back to what I said earlier: If you're constantly not getting promoted, and you want to be, it's a problem with you. Either you lack some skill - technical, organizational, or personal - or you have a highly dysfunctional org. If it's the latter, then you should leave, and do whatever you need to do to make yourself more hireable someplace that will give you what you want. In either situation, ultimately it's up to you. If you're doing the work of 3 people and they're advancing and you aren't, but you continue to work there... then that's a choice you are making.

Yes, it can be hard - I'm not handwaving that away at all. Going to school, or retraining, or relocating - those are all very tough life changing things. But deciding they're too hard is also a choice, usually, and people should own that instead if blaming others for their lack of advancement.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or talk down to anyone (I swear). Much like with love, people accept the employment they feel they deserve. You generally can change your situation if you really want to badly enough. Sure, some people are really really stuck - one-horse town, sick parents, only big employer.... but those are edge cases, generally.