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My points about marketing aren't about GW changing what they do in terms of the product, but more about what marketing and outreach strategies they can use within what they already create. So I'm not suggesting that they change what they make to market to different groups; but change how they reach out to those groups. With the understanding (as best as possible) as to why those groups might not be currently interested in wargaming or painting or hobbying.
I'd question how much marketing they do full stop. Aside from their high-street (or more commonly high-street adjacent) presence, do GW actually do anything to attract interest from new customers that aren't already involved in the hobby scene?
I'd say I can't remember the last time I saw them advertise on TV - but I can: it was the Hero Quest and Space Crusade ads that snared me, and many others of a similar age, back in the day.
Facebook groups and Twitter accounts and so on are all well and good - but they're preaching to the choir. You need to already be aware of Games Workshop to be following them.
I suppose the Hachette magazines are a start at least.
Far as I can tell GW's marketing includes
1) Being part of the Duke of Edinburgh Award scheme as a "skill". It's a school focused skills award in 3 stages and doing GW models at a club or such would count toward one of the skill requirements.
2) Outreach programs at schools to help setup clubs. Schools/teachers write to GW and get a pack and some support in setting up and running local clubs.
3) Video games. GW is fairly open with who they will licence with. If you can pay the fee you can get the GW licence. The view here is that any games that are good will rise to the top and market GW products to gamers; whilst any that are bad just fall to the side and are forgotten.
So you've games like Warhammer Total War and Dawn of War and Space Marine - big names that bring in a lot of attention.
4) Animation/TV. This is new and right now its mostly though Warhammer + which I see as a means for GW to help fund their own creations which can then be used to sound out other studios and producers who might then licence the GW licence to make shows of their own within the setting. We've already had confirmation that Amazon picked up the Inquisitor series to work on.
5) Vast numbers of youtube, twitch, twitter and other accounts all generating marketing and advertising from 3rd parties. This includes sending product to content creators earlier than the release date and soforth. Yes this is a big "preaching to the choir" but its important to maintain that too as some of that choir are going to be people invested into other games/model ranges and not GW. Plus it helps reinforce attention on those who are already customers.
6) Investing in opening up local stores.
Basically some of the above are broad appeal (eg video games) whilst others, like the school and award scheme, are more UK focused (though I'd imagine GW has some outreach in other nations for schools). A big focus is clearly that GW looks to market cheaply, they aren't spending insane amounts to appear on TV or billboards or vast amounts of marketing online through things like google. Indeed several of those outreach systems basically can't fail for GW because even if they fail to bring in a single customer, they've already generated income from the licence agreement.
Basically some of the above are broad appeal (eg video games) whilst others, like the school and award scheme, are more UK focused (though I'd imagine GW has some outreach in other nations for schools). A big focus is clearly that GW looks to market cheaply, they aren't spending insane amounts to appear on TV or billboards or vast amounts of marketing online through things like google. Indeed several of those outreach systems basically can't fail for GW because even if they fail to bring in a single customer, they've already generated income from the licence agreement.
I don't think linear TV advertising would cut it with anyone under 30 today anyway, it's more or less an avenue for advertising that is quickly going extinct already. I can't speak for countries other than Germany, but our TV commercials are about evenly split between products aimed at the elderly (like medical stuff or various end-of-life insurance/finance schemes), stuff you'd rather do than watch TV (like Podcasts and Streaming) and trailers for movies or games. At night it's like 100% pornography and ads for pornography.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/17 13:20:34
I still don't see how this can be construed as a problem. You have absolute freedom in the hobby to paint your models how you like, create a diverse background, do whatever the hell you want with them. It seems like a lot more freedom to do as you wish than other hobbies and games.
I would agree that there's a substantial financial obstacle to getting into the hobby but that would be more of a class issue than a race/sex/sexuality issue surely? I've heard other people state similar claims elsewhere "we need more black/women/gay people in the hobby" but I haven't heard a reason as to why. If said people want to get involved, then great, as long as you're not an arsehole then I have no qualms. But this push for diversity? I just don't get it. So what if it's mostly white people?
I would agree that there's a substantial financial obstacle to getting into the hobby but that would be more of a class issue than a race/sex/sexuality issue surely? I've heard other people state similar claims elsewhere "we need more black/women/gay people in the hobby" but I haven't heard a reason as to why. If said people want to get involved, then great, as long as you're not an arsehole then I have no qualms. But this push for diversity? I just don't get it. So what if it's mostly white people?
In many cases i suspect it's 'Agree and Amplify' out of a fear of getting 'cancelled', coupled with a belief that you can easily profess as conviction online what will probably never be tested in real-life. What happens online, and the makeup of the respective communities, is oftentimes really really different from the makeup of actually existing groups in physical spaces.
But consider it’s a business, and the Quest for Cash is eternal.
A little introspection on why your demographic is heavily in one direction can (and seemingly has) highlight relatively cheap and easy fixes.
Putting people of colour in art and book covers. Having a wider variety of characters in your books. Ensuring your own stores have an Open Door Policy, and your own staff aren’t, especially subconsciously, treating folk differently.
It’s like trying to get a fuss off a Cat. Learn your kitty body language, and what might work, but accept at the end of the day, Cat is gonna Cat, and if it doesn’t want to know, there’s not a damned thing you can do about it. But there’s no harm in learning those things.
Encourage a welcoming culture, and anyone not your usual demographic (note not target demographic) at least isn’t going to be avoidably put off.
And for GW Stores? That’s….kind of nothing new. We’re all nerds and geeks. For many younger nerds and geeks, a gaming group might be their first brush with social acceptance. A safe space if you like where you can be just as nerdy and geeky as you wish. If you’re getting out of hand? It’s on the staff to manage that behaviour. In my days as a Till Monkey, I had to send smelly kids home (one seriously effing ronked. Of poo), I had to ban racist/sexist kids, whether or not they were just being sad little edgelords. But none before being given a chance to Buck Up and play nice.
Because on various “isms”, it’s not just the target of vileness that the vileness affects. Consider. Parent brings their wide eyed and enthusiastic kid in for the first time, and hear offensive language (of any stripe). That’s….not at all desirable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/17 14:00:46
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Putting people of colour in art and book covers. Having a wider variety of characters in your books. Ensuring your own stores have an Open Door Policy, and your own staff aren’t, especially subconsciously, treating folk differently.
It’s like trying to get a fuss off a Cat. Learn your kitty body language, and what might work, but accept at the end of the day, Cat is gonna Cat, and if it doesn’t want to know, there’s not a damned thing you can do about it. But there’s no harm in learning those things.
Encourage a welcoming culture, and anyone not your usual demographic (note not target demographic) at least isn’t going to be avoidably put off.
That's exactly this: what you enumerated are all acts of actually being welcoming and providing an accommodating atmosphere. That's the hard(ish) part with actual (not that high) costs. It may not be exactly expensive, but it still takes more effort than cheap (free) corporate statements about how accommodating and welcoming you are. In my opinion, especially online communities tend to go in the direction of formulaic statements and high-vis lip service instead of actually fostering an open community, mostly because the high-vis stuff is more important to staving of shitstorms etc. than the softer, harder to prove actual 'spirit' of the community.
Valkyrie wrote: I would agree that there's a substantial financial obstacle to getting into the hobby but that would be more of a class issue than a race/sex/sexuality issue surely? I've heard other people state similar claims elsewhere "we need more black/women/gay people in the hobby" but I haven't heard a reason as to why. If said people want to get involved, then great, as long as you're not an arsehole then I have no qualms. But this push for diversity? I just don't get it. So what if it's mostly white people?
I think stated purely that way, sure, I mean, what does it matter what the demographics are? But that's not what the statement really means. In an increasingly diverse consumer market, selling only to middle class white dudes limits your ability to grow.
I think a lot of people handwave away that "well, women just aren't interested in 40k" despite every other hobby game making inroads with women. TTRPGs, Magic, board games, and miniature painting in general all have made at least some progress in marketing to women. Why not Warhammer?
I think that some people have the insight to realize that warhammer is a community game (you need people to play with) and those communities aren't always welcoming, even to other white guys. Myself and others in this thread have certainly seen behavior that would be alienating to women, people of color, and LGBT folks, and we know that unconscious bias is a thing. So, yeah, we could probably do a much better job of being inclusive.
I mean, if I'm playing a game of 40k and the other guy happens to be gay... like what the hell difference does that make?
Diversity has no inherent value. People have value. Who they are is significantly more important than what they are, and people are far more complex than just their race, sex or sexual orientation.
For those of you who might remember the old, old days of Dakka, mauleed used to have a saying: "Shut up about your fluff and roll your damned armour saves."
I think some of that can apply here.
I think you are looking at this from the wrong angle, people do have value, and they don't interact with these types of games because the community is incredibly hostile to them, a lot of groups are being purposefully excluded. So while, don't talk about politics and roll some dice sounds nice in theory, in reality a lot of people's existences are heavily politicized. We can't escape who we are because we aren't that default, that normal, we are the Other. So to us, statements like this come across like a dog whistle for "you shouldn't be here", so we're not.
After the previous thread I actually did exactly that. I asked on my go-to boardgaming forum (with a fair representation of women) and there were some answers there - for those of you who can be bothered to use Google Translate from Polish to English here's the link: https://www.gry-planszowe.pl/viewtopic.php?p=1517544#p1517544
Female users there are for example ponika, esspresso, walkingdead. KamradziejTomal asked his wife.
A supporting question from this thread, that may counter the arguments about barriers of entry in games/communities being the issue - how many women, compared to men, are into reading books about military history? There's no income barrier, no gatekeeping so if these make the difference in wargames, there should be a close to equal number of female and male readers of books about historical battles and tank types.
I think it's important to not just look at cost, but how things are marketed, who they are created for, and societal pressure. I know a ton of women in their 30s and 40s who love graphic descriptions of their characters cutting through monsters when they play DnD, who love first person shooter video games, who like the total warhammer series, who are avid real life gun owners and who are just in general into a lot of macabe and gorey things in board games and ttrpgs. It's not like this is a women are from venus sort of thing, military history is exclusively marketed to men, often written as a propaganda about the power of masculinity, and the general marketed demographic can have very radical leanings.
So while the women I know don't read about historical battles or tank types, they tend to know a lot about firearms, the role of women in historical warfare (especially individual women), love reading about medieval weapons and armor, etc. (like seriously, women being into swords and axes is a trope at this point. ) We just hide it 99% of the time because it's shamed in normal environments for them to be into it and they really don't want to be associated with the guy who's bookshelf is just a bunch of gothic fonts and iron crosses.
I guess this is a roundabout way of saying women are into it, but we often have to hide it, and we're not into historical wargaming because of the barriers, biases, and community.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/17 15:03:09
Hell, I've played 40K, WHFB, T:WH, and some other video game adaptations I don't recall perfectly. I think the setting is great. I think the figurines are great. It's obviously not top-tier writing, but it's fun.
I mean you basically said it yourself.
It's Fun
People naturally want to share fun with others; to draw them in, especially when the fun relies upon others. The more people we draw into our hobby the better. More people means more customers, which means more money for the creators who make stuff we like; it means more people for us to chat and interact with; it means more games being played at more varied skill and style levels.
Growth is a good thing, even better if that growth comes from fresh people new to the whole hobby rather than simply leaching new Warhammer fans from the Privateer Press club.
JNAProductions wrote:If it’s just “Diverse folk in my area aren’t interested in 40k” then it’s not an issue.
If it’s “Diverse folk are interested, but there’s barriers stopping them from joining” then that’s an issue.
It's also an issue if "diverse folk in my area aren't being marketed too/reached out too".
Again we come to the barrier and the carrot situation. It's not enough to just have no barriers to entry, you also have to have a reason to draw people in. You also have to understand why people are not being drawn in - perhaps the marketing is wrong; perhaps you're just not reaching out ot them the right way; perhaps cultural or social elements mean that your marketing has to change and adapt or perhaps you've got to wait for social elements to make more major changes (if they will) etc....
Understanding the reasons for things can be important and can help toward then changing a situation for the better.
aphyon wrote:Anecdotal evidence is just that. The FLGS i have been attending for close to 20 years now has had more players come through the area than i can count thanks to 2 nearby military bases. currently the group of hardcore regulars include people who are old, young, male, female, asian, black, native tribes, jewish, gay, religious, atheists, pagans etc...
Very true and already we've had a few mention that the local scene where they are is different.
However you also can't deny that at major events (eg regional and national) we also see a similar patterning of stereotypes present. So we can conclude that there's a likely chance that your situation is perhaps a touch more in the minority than the general scene.
This is neither bad nor good it simply is and understanding why it is can be a big step in improving diversity in other areas.
In the end improving diversity is all about taking down barriers and making something more welcoming at the same time to a broader spectrum of people.
It's also about understanding subtle barriers that you can't really "take down" such as those I identified in my earlier post. You don't "take down" the fact that the club is all 50 year olds; but perhaps you run some organised events with youth groups every so often where you've a few old-guard to run demo games and such; whilst having a lot of younger people all gathered and encouraged to come on the same day. With a view that you'll encourage a group to join up and become regulars all at once (or at least around the same time)
Just wanted to say I appreciate you. Your responses are very well thought out and you make great points.
ForgedSteel wrote: I love 40k, I love the feeling that comes with pouring hours and hours into an army an be able to see a finished result. Thats why I am concerned about this.
The lack of Diversity in this Hobby.
Whenever I go to play a game with others -at a local hobby store etc.- it seems like the only demographic I see are white men in there 30s-50s. There is nothing wrong with this; however, I am wondering why there is a lack of diversity in the hobby. It seems like there are very little people of Color, or the LGBTQ+ community. Much less women.
It sucks because this hobby feels like it should be applicable to all people regardless of race, religion, etc. I wonder why there is such a lack of diversity and what can we do as the community to encourage more people -of all walks of life- to join?
I won't argue that the demographic is primarily white men, especially age 30-50. However, the past fifteen to twenty years I've seen other demographics enter the hobby. They're still quite a small segment of the hobby, but they are present and growing. And on my part, the more, the merrier.
As far as LGBTQ+ goes, I've never asked because frankly I don't care. I'm there to play WFB, not have an intimate discussion about sexual preference and/or identity. If they present ambiguously I'll ask their pronouns, otherwise I'll assume what they present as is how they want to be identified. There is a time and a place to discuss such VASTLY private and personal issues, and over a pickup game of Warhammer in a game store is generally neither the time nor the place. I really don't care if any, all, or none of the people I meet across the table are LGBTQ. I'm not planning on having.... ahem, 'intimate relations' with them, I'm playing Warhammer with them. Their intimate details are frankly none of my business.
TLDR; I'll play anyone who shows up to play, and I don't care who they are so long as they're not jerks.
Hell, I've played 40K, WHFB, T:WH, and some other video game adaptations I don't recall perfectly. I think the setting is great. I think the figurines are great. It's obviously not top-tier writing, but it's fun.
I wouldn't encourage anyone to play the tabletop versions ever. The cost sink is fething obscene. The tabletop games are honestly grifts.
I'll grant you it's not a cheap hobby to get into, but try comparing it to quality sports gear sometime. My army is not ever going to wear out no matter how often I play; pads and uniforms and balls most definitely will if used regularly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: If it’s just “Diverse folk in my area aren’t interested in 40k” then it’s not an issue.
If it’s “Diverse folk are interested, but there’s barriers stopping them from joining” then that’s an issue.
The biggie is economics. We can hate it all we want, but fact is white men earn more money on average. It's unfair, but the complex economic, societal, and political issues that have caused that particular problem go well beyond the scope of this forum. All we can do is welcome the people who DO want to start the hobby, and start slow-grow escalation leagues so people can play while they build up their forces.
You are like the perfect person who I would want to play a game with. I just want someone to chill with and forget about all the real world issues in my life while playing with some plastic soliders.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
insaniak wrote: I have removed a bunch of inappropriate content from the thread. This is not the place for pushing conspiracy theories about how being inclusive is going to destroy 'western society'.
Thank you mod <3
Everyone gives hugs to the mod
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/04/17 15:20:12
REGULAR SHOW, FULL METAL ALCHEMIST AND ONE PIECE TROUNCES ANY LIVE ACTION. PEAK FICTION
We protect other species because humans themselves are lonely creatures. We protect the environment because humans themselves don’t want to go extinct. What drives us is simply self-gratification. But I think that’s fine, and that it’s really all there is to it. There’s no point in despising humans by human standards. That’s right. So in the end, it’s hypocritical for us to love Earth without loving ourselves.
I would agree that there's a substantial financial obstacle to getting into the hobby but that would be more of a class issue than a race/sex/sexuality issue surely? I've heard other people state similar claims elsewhere "we need more black/women/gay people in the hobby" but I haven't heard a reason as to why. If said people want to get involved, then great, as long as you're not an arsehole then I have no qualms. But this push for diversity? I just don't get it. So what if it's mostly white people?
In many cases i suspect it's 'Agree and Amplify' out of a fear of getting 'cancelled', coupled with a belief that you can easily profess as conviction online what will probably never be tested in real-life. What happens online, and the makeup of the respective communities, is oftentimes really really different from the makeup of actually existing groups in physical spaces.
I personally just like the idea of all different walks of life engaging in a uniting hobby. I also just like to see people who live differently then me and hear how there lives affect the hobby
Valkyrie wrote: I would agree that there's a substantial financial obstacle to getting into the hobby but that would be more of a class issue than a race/sex/sexuality issue surely? I've heard other people state similar claims elsewhere "we need more black/women/gay people in the hobby" but I haven't heard a reason as to why. If said people want to get involved, then great, as long as you're not an arsehole then I have no qualms. But this push for diversity? I just don't get it. So what if it's mostly white people?
I think stated purely that way, sure, I mean, what does it matter what the demographics are? But that's not what the statement really means. In an increasingly diverse consumer market, selling only to middle class white dudes limits your ability to grow.
I think a lot of people handwave away that "well, women just aren't interested in 40k" despite every other hobby game making inroads with women. TTRPGs, Magic, board games, and miniature painting in general all have made at least some progress in marketing to women. Why not Warhammer?
I think that some people have the insight to realize that warhammer is a community game (you need people to play with) and those communities aren't always welcoming, even to other white guys. Myself and others in this thread have certainly seen behavior that would be alienating to women, people of color, and LGBT folks, and we know that unconscious bias is a thing. So, yeah, we could probably do a much better job of being inclusive.
I totally agree with this, even as a white male I feel uncomfortable in certain groups. Im pretty feminine and amplified so alot of groups who are hardcore masculine tend to scoff at my love for painting and the arts of the hobby.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/17 15:43:52
REGULAR SHOW, FULL METAL ALCHEMIST AND ONE PIECE TROUNCES ANY LIVE ACTION. PEAK FICTION
We protect other species because humans themselves are lonely creatures. We protect the environment because humans themselves don’t want to go extinct. What drives us is simply self-gratification. But I think that’s fine, and that it’s really all there is to it. There’s no point in despising humans by human standards. That’s right. So in the end, it’s hypocritical for us to love Earth without loving ourselves.
Girls don't want to play wargames in stores against strangers.
90% of my female friends were just completely not interested in my pitch to spend a few hundred dollars to paint and command an army.
I had a tight circle of six families that played WFB.
Two families the girls had zero interest.
One family the sister got an army but only played it when her family hosted at her own house. She was the first in the larger group to give it up.
One family had a girl who painted but did not participate in any other way.
Two families had no girls.
Girls don't want to play wargames in stores against strangers.
So yeah.
I can agree with this, Hell even I dont want to play in a store, it smells bad and some people there are creepy. Plus its a drive, I cant imagine how women would feel with some lonely old men perving on them
REGULAR SHOW, FULL METAL ALCHEMIST AND ONE PIECE TROUNCES ANY LIVE ACTION. PEAK FICTION
We protect other species because humans themselves are lonely creatures. We protect the environment because humans themselves don’t want to go extinct. What drives us is simply self-gratification. But I think that’s fine, and that it’s really all there is to it. There’s no point in despising humans by human standards. That’s right. So in the end, it’s hypocritical for us to love Earth without loving ourselves.
My wife loves painting miniatures and playing games like Space Hulk (as the Genestealers) and Shadows of Brimstone. She will not go into the FLGS at all, not due to smell or lack of interest but because too many guys were creeping on her. So she only games and hobbies at home.
I tend to prefer going to the FLGS when there is a larger, diverse crowd so I don’t hear so many slurs and Qonspiracy theories while browsing. I also prefer to hobby and game at home.
The people we take with also tend to hobby and game at home, for various reasons. Perhaps we would spend more money in the hobby if we felt more comfortable at game stores?
I did not read the thread, as I knew it would make my blood boil.....
The bottom line to me is, if you want more diversity in your game group; you need to not just be open, or outright welcoming to these groups. You need to go out and target these folks for recruitment.
The $65K question is, how are you recruiting and is it effective? I can not answer how effective it is because I am not your target market. There is marketing resources for the target market, you just need to tap into it and find out from them what would be effective.
I have always wanted to do Napoleonics, but I have not for one major reason. On the outside looking in, it all seems very impenetrable and daunting. Lots of details, lots of history, and lots of things I do not know about and would need to learn; and lots of people who are more interested in telling me what I am doing wrong than what I am doing right online.
Wargaming looks insular and conservative when you are looking at it from the outside. You need some one to guide you in and hold your hand.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/17 16:55:04
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Easy E wrote: I did not read the thread, as I knew it would make my blood boil.....
The bottom line to me is, if you want more diversity in your game group; you need to not just be open, or outright welcoming to these groups. You need to go out and target these folks for recruitment.
The $65K question is, how are you recruiting and is it effective? I can not answer how effective it is because I am not your target market. There is marketing resources for the target market, you just need to tap into it and find out from them what would be effective.
I have always wanted to do Napoleonics, but I have not for one major reason. On the outside looking in, it all seems very impenetrable and daunting. Lots of details, lots of history, and lots of things I do not know about and would need to learn; and lots of people who are more interested in telling me what I am doing wrong than what I am doing right online.
Wargaming looks insular and conservative when you are looking at it from the outside. You need some one to guide you in and hold your hand.
I agree with this 100% I feel it is our job to bring or atleast encourage minorities to join the hobby and to provide a safe space for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everyone thank you so much for all your different insights!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/17 19:25:29
REGULAR SHOW, FULL METAL ALCHEMIST AND ONE PIECE TROUNCES ANY LIVE ACTION. PEAK FICTION
We protect other species because humans themselves are lonely creatures. We protect the environment because humans themselves don’t want to go extinct. What drives us is simply self-gratification. But I think that’s fine, and that it’s really all there is to it. There’s no point in despising humans by human standards. That’s right. So in the end, it’s hypocritical for us to love Earth without loving ourselves.
I have a general dislike of people as in I just want noting to do with extra people any more. I don't look for pickup games and play exclusively with my friends group. I don't even go to tournaments anymore.
My friends group checks several different demographics blocks but what is important about that is that we enjoy playing games with each other and are fairly likeminded. we can agree or disagree and compromise and that's fine, we're all different people.
So while the hobby should be and very largely is open to everyone I don't feel diversity is as important as making a good connection with other people while enjoying the same hobby.
The only demographics I was ever looking at are, did that person bath, were they cool, were the power gamer, did they paint their models.
Outside of that the "other" demographics could be regional. Taking note of the other anecdotal posts, mine would be similar to a few already posted in this thread. I lived near military bases or collage locations so the gamer crowd was all kinds of people. I liked some of them and dislikes others. This was based on my interactions with them and their personalities and behavior.
I think, again, that your own connections inform who you want to play with more than other factors.
Be you, do your thing and who knows.
Now days I just have no time or interest in meeting new people with out them having a connection to someone I already know. And usually a team game is the best format for that for me.
Most of the younger gamers I have met are just not my kind of people or in their own clicks, usually very competitive or just some weird mutation of cool kid. I just don't dig it.
Some others have ben a bit older and had more in common, anime, comics, movie, different games that no longer exists what have you. I just don't see why people care about the more superficial aspect of other people. and lastly I should add that I don't go to a game shop to talk about to fixate on other people demographics and sex lives. I'm usually only stopping in to buy a model, se if a friend happens to be in or buy some paint now days. There's nothing wrong with not playing in a shop if you can be more comfortable at home or in someone's basement or where ever. Game shops need you more than you need them these days.
Have people forgotten the golden rule? Sometimes it seems like that's the case.
The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.
Have people forgotten the golden rule? Sometimes it seems like that's the case.
As someone once put it: "Everybody wants to have a community, but nobody wants to do the community-building"
An actual community is not something you can buy or get ready-made of the rack: a community is made chiefly by doing community activities, in our case modelling, painting and playing. The way people engage with (chiefly) online communities has distorted their perception: since 'Community' in the current marketing sense is fundamentally a consumer relationship oriented towards one or several 'content creators', they imagine themselves as 'people that are part of the e.g. Warhammer community', but not necessary as 'people that do Warhammer things'. As a result of this they wait for 'content' to come as the result of the actions of some outside entity, and that is not going to happen anytime soon. Imho that leads, at least in some cases, to a feeling of 'not being welcomed' because nobody is enabling their passive consumption of commercialized and commodified 'ersatz-community' like their favourite creators do. People have to realize that communities are what you make of them, and the sooner you get to making your own thing the better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/17 21:30:53
Have people forgotten the golden rule? Sometimes it seems like that's the case.
As someone once put it: "Everybody wants to have a community, but nobody wants to do the community-building"
An actual community is not something you can buy or get ready-made of the rack: a community is made chiefly by doing community activities, in our case modelling, painting and playing. The way people engage with (chiefly) online communities has distorted their perception: since 'Community' in the current marketing sense is fundamentally a consumer relationship oriented towards one or several 'content creators', they imagine themselves as 'people that are part of the e.g. Warhammer community', but not necessary as 'people that do Warhammer things'. As a result of this they wait for 'content' to come as the result of the actions of some outside entity, and that is not going to happen anytime soon. Imho that leads, at least in some cases, to a feeling of 'not being welcomed' because nobody is enabling their passive consumption of commercialized and commodified 'ersatz-community' like their favourite creators do. People have to realize that communities are what you make of them, and the sooner you get to making your own thing the better.
I think its more that many people do not have the time/energy/skills/drive to create and be the cornerstone of a community. To bind it together and make it work.
Such a thing often requires a certain personality, skill set and often money to get things going (even if you're not buying terrain and such you might well need to rent a room/place for the games). IT also requires long term dedication and the ability to draw others in.
Some people have the skills required to keep a group running, but not grow it. Or they tried and they burn out because they don't meet success to a level and at a rate they are content with. Or they burn out because life gets complicated for them. Many a group has fallen apart because the cornerstone organisers had kids/got a new job/ a new partner and such.
Heck sometimes they also need outside motivation. Look how fast a lot of the Privateer Press Gangers steadily gave up when the PG program was shut down. That bit of motivation, support, organising, networking and such helped keep itself running and helped individuals working alone at the local level; connect with others at regional and national levels for support and ideas.
Once you leave the education system, organising and running clubs/groups gets complicated. Education systems are easy as they ensure a diverse group of people operating to almost the same daily schedule at the same place and offer provision of cheap/free rooms and space to hold events in
Diversity is not important and should not be strived for. Quality and enjoyment should be the priority. If diversity happens naturally then so be it, if it doesnt then so be it.
More to come, ive to be in work at 8.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
The idea of mandated diversity being pushed in so many hobbies seems both pointless and often a goal that is never fully fleshed out, since it's just something people say and want to aim for since it's in vogue and popular to say that you want it, but often these people never actually delve into what they actually mean by diversity.
Where do you draw the line of what is considered "diverse" enough for a community or group? Does it have to reach a certain percentage for you to be satisfied? Well great, now you're heading towards arbitrary diversity quotas and tokenism. Does reaching that percentage in of itself make the hobby more fun or engaging? I guarantee that 9 times out of 10, it doesn't, and usually when people talk about a gaming community they're very proud to be of, it usually has more to do with the personalities of the individuals that put the effort and time to foster connections between people rather than some vague notion of "Wow, because my gaming group has X amount of Asians, Blacks, Indians and LBGT people, I now feel like I belong." You could easily have a super diverse group and still have it be incredibly toxic for newcomers and hard for people to either join or engage with, so the idea that just changing around the skin colours and sexuality/disability somehow magically solves this problem doesn't address the core part of different personalities and people.
Another big part is that you fundamentally can't force specific people to join the hobby, you can try to make it as open and accessible as reasonably possible, but if certain demographics just aren't into it, you can't do much about it. Just like trying to force more young boys into playing with exclusively Barbies or Baby toys versus playing CoD, Power Rangers, or Roblox, you're fighting a losing battle and you should just let people have fun with what they want rather than obsessing over how "diverse" a game's consumer base is.
Plus, as other people have said, the makeup of the gaming community you're in is largely based on your regional area, I'm in the GTA in Canada, so it's a pretty metropolitan place and we get a pretty wide range of people in my gaming store, so anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much and I don't get how people get surprised when a predominantly white country has mainly white guys playing it? Would you complain that the Games Workshop store in Japan is primarily Japanese and White people in it?
It also feels like a really weird question because I wouldn't go into the game store to explicitly look for other Chinese people to play with, or any other specific minority, I'm there to play warhammer and have fun, anything else is basically window dressing. Even at home when I game with my buds I'm the only Chinese guy and I don't care, because it's not like I live my life being constantly insecure about not having a unimportant facet of my identity being validated by strangers.
I also find it interesting that this diversity push is almost always biased towards Western based games. One example would be communities playing mahjong, it originates from China and it largely played by people in the East, and definitely dominated by the East Asian diaspora in the West. Would you approach one of these communities and say, this hobby isn't diverse enough! We need more black, indigenous and white people in here? I really doubt it and just like you wouldn't do it for them, I wouldn't do it for Warhammer or frankly the vast majority of hobbies.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/04/18 00:50:10
I am rather busy nowadays. I used to frequent these forums all the time, and now, I visit about once a month just to catch up on whats happening in 40K (if I even remember to).
Similarly, on the hobby side of things, now that I have a family, and many of my friends have also grown families; my hours invested into 40K have now migrated over to hours invested in board games, card games, and ttrpgs.
I still deeply love 40K, even if I'm not able to sit for 4 or 5 hours a day painting, testing different strategies and tactics, and points crunching my army lists.
That being said, my experience is that the wider tabletop gaming community is VERY MUCH more friendly, kind, and understanding towards everyone than the Games Workshop communities are. There ARE individuals; many individuals in the 40K hobby, who are just as kind and understanding as the rest of the tabletop gaming community. But the ones who are not so nice DO leave a strong impression.
I really do wish 40K could grow. Its still got such incredible potential as a franchise, and i'd love to see new idea's new stories, and new games come out of it.
I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
master of ordinance wrote: Diversity is not important and should not be strived for. Quality and enjoyment should be the priority. If diversity happens naturally then so be it, if it doesnt then so be it.
More to come, ive to be in work at 8.
Agreed.
If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.
If you are going to participate in a hobby, participate in the hobby. Don't complain or try to force external issues into it that aren't related to the hobby itself. Certainly don't do what WOTC is doing with DnD right now.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
master of ordinance wrote: Diversity is not important and should not be strived for. Quality and enjoyment should be the priority. If diversity happens naturally then so be it, if it doesnt then so be it.
More to come, ive to be in work at 8.
Agreed.
If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.
If you are going to participate in a hobby, participate in the hobby. Don't complain or try to force external issues into it that aren't related to the hobby itself. Certainly don't do what WOTC is doing with DnD right now.
Is anyone doing that though? Are you thinking about this from other angles?
For instance, music wise I’m a lover of everything rock from 70’s Glam to 90’s Indie. I have no taste or appreciation for hip hop, disposable pop music or dance music (very specifically barring the KLF). If I’m on a night out, and visit a bar or club that’s playing music not my bag? I’m not likely to stick around.
If you walk into any place, and feel uncomfortable, you’re not going to stick around. Because a person is far more than just their cultural background or orientation etc. They’re also the sun of their life experiences, which are not necessarily all going to be positive life experiences. For some, perhaps walking into a shop where all the customers are young white or middle aged white men, a bit of a red flag. A sign that perhaps they’re not going to find that a welcoming environment.
Hence the standard need only be “ensure your venue and product is as inviting as possible”. That’s it. That’s how you encourage, step by step, a wider demographic being involved in the hobby. Contrary to certain folk’s bizarre claims (not in this thread to be clear) that doesn’t mean “we am be the replaced”. Just casting your net as wide as possible.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
master of ordinance wrote: Diversity is not important and should not be strived for. Quality and enjoyment should be the priority. If diversity happens naturally then so be it, if it doesnt then so be it.
More to come, ive to be in work at 8.
Agreed.
If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.
If you are going to participate in a hobby, participate in the hobby. Don't complain or try to force external issues into it that aren't related to the hobby itself. Certainly don't do what WOTC is doing with DnD right now.
Is anyone doing that though? Are you thinking about this from other angles?
For instance, music wise I’m a lover of everything rock from 70’s Glam to 90’s Indie. I have no taste or appreciation for hip hop, disposable pop music or dance music (very specifically barring the KLF). If I’m on a night out, and visit a bar or club that’s playing music not my bag? I’m not likely to stick around..
That's more like saying 'If I go into a Warhammer store and have no interest in Warhammer, I'm not likely to stick around '.
If you were to go into a bar and say 'Everyone in here is black. I'm out', that's a you problem.
As I’ve maintained all along, you can’t force or trick people into this Hobby. I mean, you could probably try, but it’s just not gonna work.
So if someone visits your store, checks out what’s on offer and declines? There’s nothing you can do about that decision.
But what you [i]can[i] control is whether your store is an inviting, pleasant environment in the first place. So no existing customer using foul or offensive language. The shop is clean and tidy. Staff are friendly and welcoming
This…isn’t a difficult concept. Nobody is saying “make extra special super effort for Other”. Just….remove as many barriers as you reasonably can, so nobody is being put off by the environment.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
master of ordinance wrote: Diversity is not important and should not be strived for. Quality and enjoyment should be the priority. If diversity happens naturally then so be it, if it doesnt then so be it.
More to come, ive to be in work at 8.
Agreed.
If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.
If you are going to participate in a hobby, participate in the hobby. Don't complain or try to force external issues into it that aren't related to the hobby itself. Certainly don't do what WOTC is doing with DnD right now.
My view is that its not about changing the product, its about understanding why you attract the market you do and why you don't attract markets that you don't. Then taking that understanding and seeing what can be done to broaden the range of people who are attracted to walk in the door and join the hobby.
This is a net gain for pretty much everyone in the hobby - more people means more customers and thus more income for companies. More customers and income means a bigger market and that means more room for more brands, more companies and more product diversity. It means more people of a wider range of skill levels to play with and a wider range of potential play styles as well.
Diversity is simply looking at the issue from the view of different groups of people and improving the diversity of that group.
And yes there will be variation in that, regional, national, international and more. Even at the local level you might get one shop that's all kind kind and another that's very different.
Go back 20-30 years and women in wargaming was exceptionally rare. Fast forward to today and we've way more to the point where its basically considered quite normal in a general sense. Yes many clubs can still be male dominated, but we are seeing that change and we are seeing more women in hobby areas. Perhaps painting or converting or playing or whatever. The point is the diversity in terms of gender disparity is changing and the overall result is a net gain for all.
That's all it means by increasing diversity. You can draw lines along whatever dividing points you like, the point is about understanding different groupings of people and working out why some groups join up and others are not.
Are there firm barriers that stop them and which of those barriers can be taken down.
A barrier might be economies, one social group might simply have less disposable income on average in a certain country/region and thus it might be a barrier that simply is and can't be easily removed. Though it might prompt the idea of developing or supporting cheaper games to get into. Warcry, Underworlds, Killteam.
Another might be gender. Perhaps having more women in the marketing; painters, gamers on youtube videos; writers in White Dwarf even staff in the shops. Perhaps that will steadily encourage other women to join into the hobby and have confidence to join the local groups.
Another might be increasing the importance of painting. Having more competing events; more tutorials; more display events; perhaps having a larger and more overt display of painted models in every store. These might all draw in more custom and attention from those who have no interest in the game, but who can be encouraged to socialise, buy and display what they've painted.
etc.....
It's not about changing the product as groups like Marvel and such have tried; its about trying to broaden how the hobby is presented, advertised and also how different ways to welcome and include people can be added to what's on offer.
As fans of the hobby we too can look at ourselves; how we act, respond to people of different backgrounds; behave in our groups and such to make them more widely welcoming.
Growing the interest has a net gain
And sure not everyone wants more friends or more gamers; sometimes you just want 6 friends who play games and such. That is perfectly fine and good too. However just because you've a friend group that's settled and working, doesn't mean others can't talk about increasing group sizes, broadening the playerbase and expanding in other groups and in the hobby at large.
master of ordinance wrote: Diversity is not important and should not be strived for. Quality and enjoyment should be the priority. If diversity happens naturally then so be it, if it doesnt then so be it.
More to come, ive to be in work at 8.
Agreed.
If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.
If you are going to participate in a hobby, participate in the hobby. Don't complain or try to force external issues into it that aren't related to the hobby itself. Certainly don't do what WOTC is doing with DnD right now.
If you walk into any place, and feel uncomfortable, you’re not going to stick around.
Oh I will/have and I will make my own fun within it if need be.
Grimskul wrote:The idea of mandated diversity being pushed in so many hobbies seems both pointless and often a goal that is never fully fleshed out, since it's just something people say and want to aim for since it's in vogue and popular to say that you want it, but often these people never actually delve into what they actually mean by diversity.
I'm not sure who or what is "mandating" diversity, but it's a nebulous goal. I don't think it's vague, because by simple definition it means not homogenous. Diversity means something different in different contexts, but in GW hobbies I think it pretty clearly means broadening beyond white guys.
Where do you draw the line of what is considered "diverse" enough for a community or group? Does it have to reach a certain percentage for you to be satisfied? Well great, now you're heading towards arbitrary diversity quotas and tokenism. Does reaching that percentage in of itself make the hobby more fun or engaging? I guarantee that 9 times out of 10, it doesn't, and usually when people talk about a gaming community they're very proud to be of, it usually has more to do with the personalities of the individuals that put the effort and time to foster connections between people rather than some vague notion of "Wow, because my gaming group has X amount of Asians, Blacks, Indians and LBGT people, I now feel like I belong." You could easily have a super diverse group and still have it be incredibly toxic for newcomers and hard for people to either join or engage with, so the idea that just changing around the skin colours and sexuality/disability somehow magically solves this problem doesn't address the core part of different personalities and people.
Congratulations on beating the stuffing out of that strawman. Just top notch work. You're conflating quotas, which are used when slots (such as hiring, college admissions, etc) are limited with community growth, which has no limits. We want the community to grow, and one way to do so is to reach out to people not represented in the community. How is that idea in any way offensive?
Another big part is that you fundamentally can't force specific people to join the hobby, you can try to make it as open and accessible as reasonably possible, but if certain demographics just aren't into it, you can't do much about it. Just like trying to force more young boys into playing with exclusively Barbies or Baby toys versus playing CoD, Power Rangers, or Roblox, you're fighting a losing battle and you should just let people have fun with what they want rather than obsessing over how "diverse" a game's consumer base is.
Do you even remotely think that the 40k community is making it as open and accessible as possible for women and people of color? I don't think that's the case. You seem very concerned about something happening that nobody is remotely considering.
Plus, as other people have said, the makeup of the gaming community you're in is largely based on your regional area, I'm in the GTA in Canada, so it's a pretty metropolitan place and we get a pretty wide range of people in my gaming store, so anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much and I don't get how people get surprised when a predominantly white country has mainly white guys playing it? Would you complain that the Games Workshop store in Japan is primarily Japanese and White people in it?
I'm not sure I've ever seen a GW community come close to reflecting the metro area it was in, if only because very few cities are 99% dudes. The number of times you can visit a shop where large numbers of people of color are playing CCGs, but none are playing warhammer, is pretty high.
It also feels like a really weird question because I wouldn't go into the game store to explicitly look for other Chinese people to play with, or any other specific minority, I'm there to play warhammer and have fun, anything else is basically window dressing. Even at home when I game with my buds I'm the only Chinese guy and I don't care, because it's not like I live my life being constantly insecure about not having a unimportant facet of my identity being validated by strangers.
I think the fact that different people have different comfort levels being a racial minority isn't controversial. It's great that you feel comfortable. I know a lot of white people that wouldn't be comfortable being the only person in a store, so I can imagine that some people just dont' have the energy for it for a hobby.
also find it interesting that this diversity push is almost always biased towards Western based games. One example would be communities playing mahjong, it originates from China and it largely played by people in the East, and definitely dominated by the East Asian diaspora in the West. Would you approach one of these communities and say, this hobby isn't diverse enough! We need more black, indigenous and white people in here? I really doubt it and just like you wouldn't do it for them, I wouldn't do it for Warhammer or frankly the vast majority of hobbies.
I, um, don't really know how to respond to that. I'm part of the 40k community, so when I say diversity is something I think could be improved, that reflects my values and preferences, as a member of the community. I wouldn't tell Mahjong what to do because I don't really care about Mahjong. I care about Warhammer. I'm not some random Tumblr liberal scolding wahrhammer from outside. I'm a person that likes the hobby, and thinks we could do more to expand it beyond a narrow demographic.
Grey Templar wrote:If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.
I would start by saying that part of the problem is the emotional labor required of minorities, and how it's perfectly reasonable that a person who spends their work or school life as a minority might not want that in their free time.
If you are going to participate in a hobby, participate in the hobby. Don't complain or try to force external issues into it that aren't related to the hobby itself. Certainly don't do what WOTC is doing with DnD right now.
I dont' know what WOTC is doing, but I've never been a fan of "don't' try to force external issues" which is virtually always code for "don't ask me to make even the most modest changes."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/04/18 15:00:22
Grimskul wrote:The idea of mandated diversity being pushed in so many hobbies seems both pointless and often a goal that is never fully fleshed out, since it's just something people say and want to aim for since it's in vogue and popular to say that you want it, but often these people never actually delve into what they actually mean by diversity.
I'm not sure who or what is "mandating" diversity, but it's a nebulous goal. I don't think it's vague, because by simple definition it means not homogenous. Diversity means something different in different contexts, but in GW hobbies I think it pretty clearly means broadening beyond white guys.
Where do you draw the line of what is considered "diverse" enough for a community or group? Does it have to reach a certain percentage for you to be satisfied? Well great, now you're heading towards arbitrary diversity quotas and tokenism. Does reaching that percentage in of itself make the hobby more fun or engaging? I guarantee that 9 times out of 10, it doesn't, and usually when people talk about a gaming community they're very proud to be of, it usually has more to do with the personalities of the individuals that put the effort and time to foster connections between people rather than some vague notion of "Wow, because my gaming group has X amount of Asians, Blacks, Indians and LBGT people, I now feel like I belong." You could easily have a super diverse group and still have it be incredibly toxic for newcomers and hard for people to either join or engage with, so the idea that just changing around the skin colours and sexuality/disability somehow magically solves this problem doesn't address the core part of different personalities and people.
Congratulations on beating the stuffing out of that strawman. Just top notch work. You're conflating quotas, which are used when slots (such as hiring, college admissions, etc) are limited with community growth, which has no limits. We want the community to grow, and one way to do so is to reach out to people not represented in the community. How is that idea in any way offensive?
Another big part is that you fundamentally can't force specific people to join the hobby, you can try to make it as open and accessible as reasonably possible, but if certain demographics just aren't into it, you can't do much about it. Just like trying to force more young boys into playing with exclusively Barbies or Baby toys versus playing CoD, Power Rangers, or Roblox, you're fighting a losing battle and you should just let people have fun with what they want rather than obsessing over how "diverse" a game's consumer base is.
Do you even remotely think that the 40k community is making it as open and accessible as possible for women and people of color? I don't think that's the case. You seem very concerned about something happening that nobody is remotely considering.
Plus, as other people have said, the makeup of the gaming community you're in is largely based on your regional area, I'm in the GTA in Canada, so it's a pretty metropolitan place and we get a pretty wide range of people in my gaming store, so anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much and I don't get how people get surprised when a predominantly white country has mainly white guys playing it? Would you complain that the Games Workshop store in Japan is primarily Japanese and White people in it?
I'm not sure I've ever seen a GW community come close to reflecting the metro area it was in, if only because very few cities are 99% dudes. The number of times you can visit a shop where large numbers of people of color are playing CCGs, but none are playing warhammer, is pretty high.
It also feels like a really weird question because I wouldn't go into the game store to explicitly look for other Chinese people to play with, or any other specific minority, I'm there to play warhammer and have fun, anything else is basically window dressing. Even at home when I game with my buds I'm the only Chinese guy and I don't care, because it's not like I live my life being constantly insecure about not having a unimportant facet of my identity being validated by strangers.
I think the fact that different people have different comfort levels being a racial minority isn't controversial. It's great that you feel comfortable. I know a lot of white people that wouldn't be comfortable being the only person in a store, so I can imagine that some people just dont' have the energy for it for a hobby.
also find it interesting that this diversity push is almost always biased towards Western based games. One example would be communities playing mahjong, it originates from China and it largely played by people in the East, and definitely dominated by the East Asian diaspora in the West. Would you approach one of these communities and say, this hobby isn't diverse enough! We need more black, indigenous and white people in here? I really doubt it and just like you wouldn't do it for them, I wouldn't do it for Warhammer or frankly the vast majority of hobbies.
I, um, don't really know how to respond to that. I'm part of the 40k community, so when I say diversity is something I think could be improved, that reflects my values and preferences, as a member of the community. I wouldn't tell Mahjong what to do because I don't really care about Mahjong. I care about Warhammer. I'm not some random Tumblr liberal scolding wahrhammer from outside. I'm a person that likes the hobby, and thinks we could do more to expand it beyond a narrow demographic.
Grey Templar wrote:If you walk into a place and say "I don't see anybody that looks like me/X demographic here. I don't like that!" then you are the one with the problem, not the people who are there.
I would start by saying that part of the problem is the emotional labor required of minorities, and how it's perfectly reasonable that a person who spends their work or school life as a minority might not want that in their free time.
If you are going to participate in a hobby, participate in the hobby. Don't complain or try to force external issues into it that aren't related to the hobby itself. Certainly don't do what WOTC is doing with DnD right now.
I dont' know what WOTC is doing, but I've never been a fan of "don't' try to force external issues" which is virtually always code for "don't ask me to make even the most modest changes."
HOLY. My man wrote the most eloquent and convincing argument I have seen in a while. I really do enjoy seeing all these different perspectives.
Thanks everyone for posting
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/04/18 18:40:54
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We protect other species because humans themselves are lonely creatures. We protect the environment because humans themselves don’t want to go extinct. What drives us is simply self-gratification. But I think that’s fine, and that it’s really all there is to it. There’s no point in despising humans by human standards. That’s right. So in the end, it’s hypocritical for us to love Earth without loving ourselves.
