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So i normally watch Forgotten Weapons (it's mostly a channel of obsolete guns) and haven't for some time. Normally they test old weapons, crappy weapons and various types of weapons but today we got a really interesting treat.




So what do you guys think? I thought it was pretty cool even if it seems a bit heavy. Considering the Magnetic energy needed and how it effects electronic equipment i can't imagine it'd bode well for a smart phone or tablet. Ofc i'm no expert in the sciences so much as an amateur. There was a warning about not using it near pacemakers however.

The same company made one 3 years ago and called that the first commercially available coilgun.

It was quite interesting for sure. The next 10 years will probably see this become a lot more viable. But even as it is, you could make some easy improvements.

First I think would be the ammunition. Instead of just using steel pins I think some purpose built ammo would make it much better. Something like a steel dart encased in a plastic sabot with some stabilizing fins would probably amp up its velocity and penetrative power. Especially since it is perfectly capable of firing sub caliber projectiles and the projectile isn't suppose to touch the barrel. 600 grain projectiles are definitely sizable, but you'd need to get them much faster than 70 meters per second.

a 600 grain projectile at 70 meters/second(roughly 229 ft/s) has about 70 ft pounds of energy. For comparison, a 62 grain 5.56 projectile traveling at 3000 ft/s has 1239 ft pounds of energy.

If they dropped the projectile mass down to 300ish grains, made it a fin stabilized dart of some kind, and tripled it's velocity up to 690 ft/s then we'd have something with a much more respectable 317 ft pounds. Which would put it slightly less power than a .45 ACP, but depending on projectile shape and design it would be very respectable.

There is of course something to be said for being able to fire simple steel pins, but I think for it to really shine you would want purpose built projectiles.

I mean, that said, if you could somehow get those 600 grain projectiles going at higher velocities it could be quite nasty. It would only take 500 ft/s to roughly equal .45 ACP's energy with a 600 grain projectile, which due to its size would behave in very interesting ways on a target. 1000 ft/s and that is 5.56 levels of energy in a very large projectile.

Kind of neat. But more in a science experiment kind of way.

Unfortunately adding a power requirement to ammunition requirements makes it... impractical. Even if the obvious problems are solved, there isn't much getting around that. And probably weight problems as well.

It seems more like a cheesy assassination weapon for a Bond movie than anything real, by virtue of being naturally quiet, no gunpowder residue for sniffers, and not needing to be 'gun shaped' (pop into a briefcase or something)

Ehh, it kinda does need to be gun shaped. You gotta have a barrel with those accelerators in a line.

I think it’s interesting; the company are very clear that this is effectively a “teaser” product to get people thinking about how electromagnetic weapons could work. You only really start to see useful developments when people start using a device.

I thought of a few improvements off the bat; one is the shape and weight distribution in the projectiles. I think the plain rods are aerodynamically unstable, which is why they have a tendency to tumble. Something shaped more like a conventional bullet / missile would be better, even without fin/spin stabilisation (which is also a good idea).

The second is the “barrel”; I understand and agree with the logic of having a containment for the projectile, to stop it accidentally hitting the magnets, etc., but it doesn’t need to be a solid tube. The projectile effectively has to act like a piston, which will be interfering with its acceleration. I’d replace the solid barrel with a perforated or mesh version that allows the air out.

As far as utility goes, there are a number of possibilities. The ability to vary projectile energy is interesting; that could make a very effective “non-lethal”, that adjusts muzzle velocity based on range to target automatically. Use as a kind of grenade launcher also has potential, particularly as the acceleration in this is probably a lot smoother than a conventional propellant, so could fire more “fragile” projectiles. The ability to basically fire anything that fits in the bore also raises the possibility of a Judge Dredd style weapon with selective ammunition. A support weapon for infantry that could fire frag, AP, flares, smoke, etc. could be very useful. Like a high tech mortar with much smaller, lighter ammunition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also worth watching another FW video from a few days ago where he had an original laser aiming device AR-15. The laser is bigger than the actual firearm! Similar with the original active infrared night sights, so you have to think of this product in that context. Yes, it’s ridiculous, bulky, heavy and unwieldy, with limited capabilities, but give it twenty years development and it will be a very different story.

From memory it was described as floating the projectile down the middle of the barrel, so you might not even need a sabot. I wonder if the current tech would give much benefit to a lighter slug anyway. It looked like it was maxing out at 75m/s regardless of the size. I suppose in energy balance terms, a lighter slug would draw less power and reduce heating, but a dart would be more reliant on velocity for damage, and it’s not there yet with velocity.

It doesn’t go pew or dakka.

I am intrigued, but disappointed it doesn’t go pew or dakka.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It doesn’t go pew or dakka.

I am intrigued, but disappointed it doesn’t go pew or dakka.

It does not spark joy in da boyz.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It was quite interesting for sure. The next 10 years will probably see this become a lot more viable. But even as it is, you could make some easy improvements.

First I think would be the ammunition. Instead of just using steel pins I think some purpose built ammo would make it much better. Something like a steel dart encased in a plastic sabot with some stabilizing fins would probably amp up its velocity and penetrative power. Especially since it is perfectly capable of firing sub caliber projectiles and the projectile isn't suppose to touch the barrel. 600 grain projectiles are definitely sizable, but you'd need to get them much faster than 70 meters per second.

a 600 grain projectile at 70 meters/second(roughly 229 ft/s) has about 70 ft pounds of energy. For comparison, a 62 grain 5.56 projectile traveling at 3000 ft/s has 1239 ft pounds of energy.

If they dropped the projectile mass down to 300ish grains, made it a fin stabilized dart of some kind, and tripled it's velocity up to 690 ft/s then we'd have something with a much more respectable 317 ft pounds. Which would put it slightly less power than a .45 ACP, but depending on projectile shape and design it would be very respectable.

There is of course something to be said for being able to fire simple steel pins, but I think for it to really shine you would want purpose built projectiles.

I mean, that said, if you could somehow get those 600 grain projectiles going at higher velocities it could be quite nasty. It would only take 500 ft/s to roughly equal .45 ACP's energy with a 600 grain projectile, which due to its size would behave in very interesting ways on a target. 1000 ft/s and that is 5.56 levels of energy in a very large projectile.

I think there's a lot of technical issues with this type of technology that may or may not be overcome to the point where it becomes practical for a hand held weapon, let alone a better option than buying a traditional firearm.

Possibly where they're going to create issues in future is that it might make home-made guns practical, maybe they won't be good guns but still deadly and able to made from items that are hard to track and/or regulate.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It doesn’t go pew or dakka.

I am intrigued, but disappointed it doesn’t go pew or dakka.

It does not spark joy in da boyz.

Indeed it does not! It does however, rather disconcertingly considering it’s a deadly weapon, sound like a Nerf gun.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ehh, it kinda does need to be gun shaped. You gotta have a barrel with those accelerators in a line.

Needs to be in a line, sure. But you could do that in a shoebox or a briefcase- keep in mind this was in the context of a Bond movie assassin's toy. So a fancy aiming camera that has servos to adjust the barrel, a pop open hatch to fire out of and everything.

For practical battlefield or hunting use, adding power-packs to your kit alongside magazines just doesn't seem worthwhile.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It was quite interesting for sure. The next 10 years will probably see this become a lot more viable. But even as it is, you could make some easy improvements.

First I think would be the ammunition. Instead of just using steel pins I think some purpose built ammo would make it much better. Something like a steel dart encased in a plastic sabot with some stabilizing fins would probably amp up its velocity and penetrative power. Especially since it is perfectly capable of firing sub caliber projectiles and the projectile isn't suppose to touch the barrel. 600 grain projectiles are definitely sizable, but you'd need to get them much faster than 70 meters per second.

a 600 grain projectile at 70 meters/second(roughly 229 ft/s) has about 70 ft pounds of energy. For comparison, a 62 grain 5.56 projectile traveling at 3000 ft/s has 1239 ft pounds of energy.

If they dropped the projectile mass down to 300ish grains, made it a fin stabilized dart of some kind, and tripled it's velocity up to 690 ft/s then we'd have something with a much more respectable 317 ft pounds. Which would put it slightly less power than a .45 ACP, but depending on projectile shape and design it would be very respectable.

There is of course something to be said for being able to fire simple steel pins, but I think for it to really shine you would want purpose built projectiles.

I mean, that said, if you could somehow get those 600 grain projectiles going at higher velocities it could be quite nasty. It would only take 500 ft/s to roughly equal .45 ACP's energy with a 600 grain projectile, which due to its size would behave in very interesting ways on a target. 1000 ft/s and that is 5.56 levels of energy in a very large projectile.

I think there's a lot of technical issues with this type of technology that may or may not be overcome to the point where it becomes practical for a hand held weapon, let alone a better option than buying a traditional firearm.

Possibly where they're going to create issues in future is that it might make home-made guns practical, maybe they won't be good guns but still deadly and able to made from items that are hard to track and/or regulate.

Home made firearms are already a possibility though - it only takes some (admittedly fairly big) tools to fold the receiver for an AK-47. Since that's the only part that counts as a gun the rest of the parts are purchasable without any regulation.

And it would be similar for any number of other firearms, down to the simple pipe shotgun.

All of which are way more practical than home building gigantic magnets and capacitors, especially since there'd be far less personal risk. If you mess up a sheet metal fold you're far less likely to die than messing up the wiring on a high voltage railgun.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It doesn’t go pew or dakka.

I am intrigued, but disappointed it doesn’t go pew or dakka.

It does not spark joy in da boyz.

Indeed it does not! It does however, rather disconcertingly considering it’s a deadly weapon, sound like a Nerf gun.

That would be because it's laughably subsonic. You could probably get a faster dart out of a souped up nerf gun.

 ScarletRose wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
It was quite interesting for sure. The next 10 years will probably see this become a lot more viable. But even as it is, you could make some easy improvements.

First I think would be the ammunition. Instead of just using steel pins I think some purpose built ammo would make it much better. Something like a steel dart encased in a plastic sabot with some stabilizing fins would probably amp up its velocity and penetrative power. Especially since it is perfectly capable of firing sub caliber projectiles and the projectile isn't suppose to touch the barrel. 600 grain projectiles are definitely sizable, but you'd need to get them much faster than 70 meters per second.

a 600 grain projectile at 70 meters/second(roughly 229 ft/s) has about 70 ft pounds of energy. For comparison, a 62 grain 5.56 projectile traveling at 3000 ft/s has 1239 ft pounds of energy.

If they dropped the projectile mass down to 300ish grains, made it a fin stabilized dart of some kind, and tripled it's velocity up to 690 ft/s then we'd have something with a much more respectable 317 ft pounds. Which would put it slightly less power than a .45 ACP, but depending on projectile shape and design it would be very respectable.

There is of course something to be said for being able to fire simple steel pins, but I think for it to really shine you would want purpose built projectiles.

I mean, that said, if you could somehow get those 600 grain projectiles going at higher velocities it could be quite nasty. It would only take 500 ft/s to roughly equal .45 ACP's energy with a 600 grain projectile, which due to its size would behave in very interesting ways on a target. 1000 ft/s and that is 5.56 levels of energy in a very large projectile.

I think there's a lot of technical issues with this type of technology that may or may not be overcome to the point where it becomes practical for a hand held weapon, let alone a better option than buying a traditional firearm.

Possibly where they're going to create issues in future is that it might make home-made guns practical, maybe they won't be good guns but still deadly and able to made from items that are hard to track and/or regulate.

Home made firearms are already a possibility though - it only takes some (admittedly fairly big) tools to fold the receiver for an AK-47. Since that's the only part that counts as a gun the rest of the parts are purchasable without any regulation.

And it would be similar for any number of other firearms, down to the simple pipe shotgun.

All of which are way more practical than home building gigantic magnets and capacitors, especially since there'd be far less personal risk. If you mess up a sheet metal fold you're far less likely to die than messing up the wiring on a high voltage railgun.

I wasn't really thinking about US law specifically, I was talking more generally. It's my understanding that in many places even buying ammunition requires a licence, so even if you can build a gun unless you also plan on making the ammunition at home it's not going to do you much good. Over here I don't even believe you can buy a barrel, and while yeah, you can technically make one yourself, the level of machining capability and skill is well above that to build a coil gun. You could build something like a Luty, but again if you can't buy the ammo for it then it's not going to be much use.

Coil guns I've seen can be built with parts from an electronics and hardware store, often assembled with 3D printed parts but also often not even that. They'd have to start regulating basic hobby level electronics and controllers. Maybe as technology improves it'll no longer be possible to build them from hardware store parts, but currently that's the case.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It doesn’t go pew or dakka.

I am intrigued, but disappointed it doesn’t go pew or dakka.

It does not spark joy in da boyz.

Indeed it does not! It does however, rather disconcertingly considering it’s a deadly weapon, sound like a Nerf gun.

That would be because it's laughably subsonic. You could probably get a faster dart out of a souped up nerf gun.

Because I’m all well clever and smart and totally understand all guns in all ways?

I’ll settle for a “wom wom wom womwomwomwomwomwowmowom” as it’s charging up!

I prefer "ominous hum".

Voss wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ehh, it kinda does need to be gun shaped. You gotta have a barrel with those accelerators in a line.

Needs to be in a line, sure. But you could do that in a shoebox or a briefcase- keep in mind this was in the context of a Bond movie assassin's toy. So a fancy aiming camera that has servos to adjust the barrel, a pop open hatch to fire out of and everything.

For practical battlefield or hunting use, adding power-packs to your kit alongside magazines just doesn't seem worthwhile.

You might be adding power packs, but you are removing propellant and casings. There is some trade off.

Also not needing a specially fitted feed, chamber and barrel for a specific type of ammo makes logistics a whole lot easier.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It doesn’t go pew or dakka.

I am intrigued, but disappointed it doesn’t go pew or dakka.

It does not spark joy in da boyz.

Indeed it does not! It does however, rather disconcertingly considering it’s a deadly weapon, sound like a Nerf gun.

That would be because it's laughably subsonic. You could probably get a faster dart out of a souped up nerf gun.

Because I’m all well clever and smart and totally understand all guns in all ways?

I’ll settle for a “wom wom wom womwomwomwomwomwowmowom” as it’s charging up!

The short version is that part of the sound of a gun (not most, part) is the bullet breaking the sound barrier. This one's rather far short of hitting that, so you're stuck with the sound of the magnets (which is nothing) and maybe the capacitors discharging (which shouldn't be anything most of the time, and is a whistle and a pop when they screw up).

konst80hummel wrote:
I prefer "ominous hum".

As long as it sounds at least a bit Killy!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I wasn't really thinking about US law specifically, I was talking more generally. It's my understanding that in many places even buying ammunition requires a licence, so even if you can build a gun unless you also plan on making the ammunition at home it's not going to do you much good. Over here I don't even believe you can buy a barrel, and while yeah, you can technically make one yourself, the level of machining capability and skill is well above that to build a coil gun. You could build something like a Luty, but again if you can't buy the ammo for it then it's not going to be much use.

Coil guns I've seen can be built with parts from an electronics and hardware store, often assembled with 3D printed parts but also often not even that. They'd have to start regulating basic hobby level electronics and controllers. Maybe as technology improves it'll no longer be possible to build them from hardware store parts, but currently that's the case.

Ammunition is the limiting factor with a Luty yes, but that can be worked around too. If you're willing to go down to black powder levels, you could make a firearm that uses that instead of smokeless powder. Machine up some primitive metallic cartridges and you can have a black powder repeating firearm. Simple black powder is silly easy to make. Charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate. It'll be unreliable and jam alot since black powder is messy, but it would be much easier and more accessible than a coilgun.

But as far as barrels are concerned, you don't NEED to have a high quality high hardness strong barrel for pistol calibers. A simple pipe like the Luty has is more than strong enough for a pistol cartridge. And pipes can be found everywhere.

Homemade firearms are much much easier to make than a homemade coilgun or railgun and would require a much lower threshold of necessary parts, both for ammo and the gun itself.

Have there been any test on how stuff like smart phones or other electronic devices react to those magnetic fields?

Given how much the military depends on electronics nowadays, that could be a significant obstical to more general use.

And on the 'quiet' front, that's going to translate to 'silenced' or 'silencer' to the uninformed, which means it will almost certainly be subject to similar restrictions in civilian use.

 Grey Templar wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

I wasn't really thinking about US law specifically, I was talking more generally. It's my understanding that in many places even buying ammunition requires a licence, so even if you can build a gun unless you also plan on making the ammunition at home it's not going to do you much good. Over here I don't even believe you can buy a barrel, and while yeah, you can technically make one yourself, the level of machining capability and skill is well above that to build a coil gun. You could build something like a Luty, but again if you can't buy the ammo for it then it's not going to be much use.

Coil guns I've seen can be built with parts from an electronics and hardware store, often assembled with 3D printed parts but also often not even that. They'd have to start regulating basic hobby level electronics and controllers. Maybe as technology improves it'll no longer be possible to build them from hardware store parts, but currently that's the case.

Ammunition is the limiting factor with a Luty yes, but that can be worked around too. If you're willing to go down to black powder levels, you could make a firearm that uses that instead of smokeless powder. Machine up some primitive metallic cartridges and you can have a black powder repeating firearm. Simple black powder is silly easy to make. Charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate.

What you're talking about though still really requires someone with tools, knowledge and skill to produce items that are illegal and then distribute them.

Even if you can make black powder, it's still controlled in many places because it's an explosive so (at least in my mind) it's going to be much easier for authorities to shut down such an operation that is making reasonable quantities of ammo and put the builder away for a long time.

Homemade firearms are much much easier to make than a homemade coilgun or railgun and would require a much lower threshold of necessary parts, both for ammo and the gun itself.

I think you're overestimating how difficult it is to build a coil gun. Conceptually maybe they're complicated and beyond the electronics knowledge of most, but they can be built by someone who isn't tooled up and from items that aren't inherently illegal by themselves with only a bit of instruction. The challenge is more in the design rather than the building, so if someone comes up with a good enough design they can release the plans and damned near anyone can build it so long as it's not using any exotic electronics, and at least the ones I've seen are made from pretty accessible components.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Conceptually maybe they're complicated and beyond the electronics knowledge of most, but they can be built by someone who isn't tooled up and from items that aren't inherently illegal by themselves with only a bit of instruction.

That literally applies to normal guns just the same.

And I would say that a homemade bubba gun is probably less likely to kill you on accident than a theoretical garage coilgun which would be putting out a frightening amount of electrical energy. Both are potentially dangerous, but the coilgun is inherently more so.

Not sure whether people would count it as a "garage" coilgun, but the Hacksmith did make a coilgun in 2019, and a railgun in 2018.

 Grey Templar wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Conceptually maybe they're complicated and beyond the electronics knowledge of most, but they can be built by someone who isn't tooled up and from items that aren't inherently illegal by themselves with only a bit of instruction.

That literally applies to normal guns just the same.

The distinction is that the gun including its ammo actually takes equipment most people don't have on hand, aren't going to be able to buy easily and take some level of competency to use. A coil gun requires very little equipment to make and what you do need is not specialised, not expensive, and can be taught in a few minutes.

Unless I'm massively overestimating what is required to make ammo.

Then if the popo decides to raid you and finds a bunch of home made gunpowder and guns/gun components, you're going to jail, while owning the final coil gun might be illegal it can be broken down and stored as individual components that aren't illegal.

And I would say that a homemade bubba gun is probably less likely to kill you on accident than a theoretical garage coilgun which would be putting out a frightening amount of electrical energy. Both are potentially dangerous, but the coilgun is inherently more so.

I disagree somewhat, yeah, there's dangerous amounts of electricity, but if you've got to the point that you know what components to buy I'd hope you'd understand some basic electrical safety. Kinda like if you've got to the point of buying a lathe you hopefully know not to use it with loose hair / clothing.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:
Not sure whether people would count it as a "garage" coilgun, but the Hacksmith did make a coilgun in 2019, and a railgun in 2018.

There's a few people who have built them and have videos up on YT, I've seen a couple that can break through a few mm of plywood at a few yards, dunno if they still have useful energy at any sort of range. Similar to the one in the OP I don't know if people have built them with more aerodynamic bullets or figured out how to get a spin on the bullet so that it doesn't almost immediately start tumbling.

There's challenges in a coil gun beyond a certain speed in getting energy into a round that is already moving somewhat fast (and rail guns have their own issues too).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Possibly where they're going to create issues in future is that it might make home-made guns practical, maybe they won't be good guns but still deadly and able to made from items that are hard to track and/or regulate.

I'm sure the *powers that be* have already taken that into consideration and I think why this has become *public* is so that *the powers that be* is to get the people to do all the leg work in developing this as a viable weapon so they save time money and resources so that when this weapons becomes a viable weapon *the powers that be* will snap up the viable weapon and ban everyone else from posising them by making it hard or impossible to get/build the critical components needed to create/build a viable weapon.

Kargan3033 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Possibly where they're going to create issues in future is that it might make home-made guns practical, maybe they won't be good guns but still deadly and able to made from items that are hard to track and/or regulate.

I'm sure the *powers that be* have already taken that into consideration and I think why this has become *public* is so that *the powers that be* is to get the people to do all the leg work in developing this as a viable weapon so they save time money and resources so that when this weapons becomes a viable weapon *the powers that be* will snap up the viable weapon and ban everyone else from posising them by making it hard or impossible to get/build the critical components needed to create/build a viable weapon.

Or it just weighs like 30 pounds for what's basically a .22 rifle, and there's not really a reason for folks to want that.

There's an interview with the designer on the same channel which is interesting as well. This is really just a proof of concept to show what's possible now. They're talking about adding "rifling" by creating a spiral magnetic field to help stabilise the projectile and many of the limitations are due to technology not being advanced enough yet.

I can see a lot of advantages if they can make this more practical. Variable energy output is something that has a lot of uses in different scenarios and you can also easily swap different ammunition calibres and types in and out because there's no need to change the bolt, chamber and barrel when doing so. I think it depends just how quickly the technology advances, which may well not be fast enough.

Slipspace wrote:
They're talking about adding "rifling" by creating a spiral magnetic field to help stabilise the projectile and many of the limitations are due to technology not being advanced enough yet.

That is an overly complicated solution. Just make ammo with stabilizing fins. Spinning magnetic fields is way way too complicated. Treat the problem like modern smoothbore tank cannons. If you can't have rifling, make the projectile have fins.