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Question from a game earlier, in the shooting phase a vehicle can, with some weapon restrictions, fire at an enemy within engagement range aka "Big Guns Never Tire", with the -1 to hit.

This seems reasonably clear, in this case a T'au Hammerhead found itself in engagement range of some nasty nasty marines who didn't have its best intentions at heart.

So it decided to shoot them, all ok so far, checking the weapons, nothing its armed with has 'BLAST' so good to go.

Thought occurs, and this is the question.

Can another unit be an observer and use "For the greater good" to guide the shot? not seeing anything in FTGG that puts a "not in engagement range" restriction on the shooting unit, the "is eligible to shoot" bit I'd say stops a unit within engagement range acting as the observer, but not seeing anything that prevents this.

Thinking of it as someone radioing the vehicle crew about where things are.

am I reading this right?

Don’t see why not.

Yep. But this is Tau we're talking about so you will never have a unit alive in melee with something in the Tau shooting phase.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Yep. But this is Tau we're talking about so you will never have a unit alive in melee with something in the Tau shooting phase.

You do realize the OP was asking because that happened in a game they played, right?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Yep. But this is Tau we're talking about so you will never have a unit alive in melee with something in the Tau shooting phase.

You do realize the OP was asking because that happened in a game they played, right?

I refuse to believe that a unit successfully charged Tau and the Tau were still alive in their own shooting phase. Was the Tau player using loaded dice?

There are plenty of things that can charge a Hammerhead Gunship (T10, Sv3+, W14) and not kill it in one round of fighting. In those cases there is no reason, per the rules For the Greater Good and Big Guns Never Tire, that the Hammerhead cannot be selected to be either an Observer or Guided unit of the FTGG Faction ability.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Yep. But this is Tau we're talking about so you will never have a unit alive in melee with something in the Tau shooting phase.

You do realize the OP was asking because that happened in a game they played, right?

I refuse to believe that a unit successfully charged Tau and the Tau were still alive in their own shooting phase. Was the Tau player using loaded dice?

well actually... the hammerhead charged them (Grey Knight Terminators), did a couple or mortal wounds with tank shock and then survived two turns of combat (doing about as much as you expect with its melee attacks), but managing a decent shooting round. the Terminators robbed it of 12 of its 14 wounds though before the final terminator (Librarian) blew himself up


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
There are plenty of things that can charge a Hammerhead Gunship (T10, Sv3+, W14) and not kill it in one round of fighting. In those cases there is no reason, per the rules For the Greater Good and Big Guns Never Tire, that the Hammerhead cannot be selected to be either an Observer or Guided unit of the FTGG Faction ability.

not entirely sure if the unit in melee could be an observer, I mean in theory its eligible to shoot but that just seems seriously gamey.

That said if facing someone who was "rules to the letter because I can" I'd hold it in reserve but this was quite a casual game, indeed I only charged the hammerhead for a bit of a laugh to see what would happen with the tank shock, that it would pin down a melee unit for several turns (he didn't want to fall back knowing I could tank shock again as he had nothing else at that point to finish the hammerhead off with, and he was on an objective marker and initially claiming it).

was surprised it worked, now I did get lucky with an 11 damage devastating wounds hit which helped

Yes, that is how it works.

You can select a unit to be an observer, and the Hammerhead to be the guided unit.
.
You could then select the hammerhead to be an observer for a third unit since you can a select a unit in engagement range to be an observer unit

cheers, just wondered if there was "aha nope" elsewhere, it appears not

madtankbloke wrote:
Yes, that is how it works.

You can select a unit to be an observer, and the Hammerhead to be the guided unit.
.
You could then select the hammerhead to be an observer for a third unit since you can a select a unit in engagement range to be an observer unit

While the Hammerhead can be either a Observer or Guided unit, it cannot be both because you cannot select an Observer unit or one that has already fired to be an Observer unit.

 alextroy wrote:

madtankbloke wrote:
Yes, that is how it works.

You can select a unit to be an observer, and the Hammerhead to be the guided unit.
.
You could then select the hammerhead to be an observer for a third unit since you can a select a unit in engagement range to be an observer unit

While the Hammerhead can be either a Observer or Guided unit, it cannot be both because you cannot select an Observer unit or one that has already fired to be an Observer unit.

Shooting phase, 1st paragraph

In your Shooting phase, if you have one or more eligible units
from your army on the battlefield, you can select those units,
one at a time, and shoot with them. Each unit can only be
selected to shoot once per phase. Once all of the units you
selected have shot, progress to your Charge phase.
A unit is eligible to shoot unless any of the following apply:
■ That unit Advanced this turn.
■ That unit Fell Back this turn.

RAW, a unit that has shot is still eligible to shoot. It can only be selected to shoot once, but it is still eligible to shoot after doing so.

The only criteria for being an observer are that it has to be eligible to shoot, and is not battleshocked, a fortification, or an observer.

Weapon abilities like Pistol (making you eligible to shoot if you are in engagement range) or assault (making you eligible to shoot if you advanced) also mean the unit so equipped can act as an observer unit.

By George, you are right. That makes For the Greater Good much easier to use. Kinda feels like an oversight on GW's part.

 alextroy wrote:
By George, you are right. That makes For the Greater Good much easier to use. Kinda feels like an oversight on GW's part.

It is. RAI FTGG is meant to give half your units +1 BS, but RAW is a mess and lets you do stuff that isn't intended. If Tau weren't in their familiar place at the bottom of the win rate list people would care more about it.

given the way GW write its essentially impossible to know what is and is not "intended", given they have set an army that is meant to be all about shooting and using technology to help to have the same BS as a guardsman who knows what they intended

but yes that bit is the ability to have only a single unit in the army unguided (the first observer) as each unit after can be guided itself, and then observe for another but you have to get the order right

leopard wrote:
given the way GW write its essentially impossible to know what is and is not "intended", given they have set an army that is meant to be all about shooting and using technology to help to have the same BS as a guardsman who knows what they intended

Which do you honestly think is more likely: GW made an army rule which gives the entire army an automatic +1 BS as long as you execute a convoluted and counter-intuitive sequence of actions based on carefully studying the precise wording of RAW instead of just giving Tau +1 BS base, or the ability is intended to work as it seems at first glance and have half your army spotting for the other half to give it +1 BS? If FTGG is intended to give the entire army +1 BS why bother making it a special faction ability with all the associated rules?

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

leopard wrote:
given the way GW write its essentially impossible to know what is and is not "intended", given they have set an army that is meant to be all about shooting and using technology to help to have the same BS as a guardsman who knows what they intended

Which do you honestly think is more likely: GW made an army rule which gives the entire army an automatic +1 BS as long as you execute a convoluted and counter-intuitive sequence of actions based on carefully studying the precise wording of RAW instead of just giving Tau +1 BS base, or the ability is intended to work as it seems at first glance and have half your army spotting for the other half to give it +1 BS? If FTGG is intended to give the entire army +1 BS why bother making it a special faction ability with all the associated rules?

its GW they may well have intended it to give the enemy shooting at the T'au a bonus

also note its not, even with the current as written daisy chain, going to give all but one unit a +1 BS, firstly that would require every enemy unit to be in sight of at least two T'au units, and for there not to be a case where the only spotter has already spotted so cannot repeat - a situation which is at best unlikely, but that also then requires very careful sequencing which will likely deny the ability to fire in the order you actually want.

that aside though my point is quite simple, we know what they wrote, its in front of us (we also know how bad GW rule writing is, thats in front of us as well), we do not know what they were thinking/drinking/smoking when they wrote it - or if it was actually written by the one who came up with it and not simply described to someone else who wrote it down wrong

so all you have is "this is what was written", tryping to go into "but what did they intend?" is usually a fools errand

I do expect this will, eventually, be changed, however as noted it is quite clear that a unit which has actually fired is eligibile to fire again, just unable to actually do so, as having already fired is not on the list of reasons you are not eligible to fire

also for the record I can quite easily see GW going with some needlessly complicated way of managing T'au shooting, they have managed to do that for several editions now and manage equally convoluted methods for other armies when simply giving an army wide BS boost or similar would have a generally similar result


Automatically Appended Next Post:
two further points, again for the record

1. this daisy chaining isn't what I was initially asking about, just being guided against a unit within engagement range, which I guess would also apply to pistols on infantry, if they ever live long enough to use them, which they probably won't

2. I don't use daisy chaining, its too hard to keep track of without tokens and I'm too lazy to use them, its something I'd use against someone who is using the location of a comma or similar against me however but in a more casual game generally not as units are generally not positioned to get the sequencing right

It is not that hard to read their intent then the first paragraph of the rule is:

If your Army Faction is T’au Empire, then in your Shooting phase units from your army can work in pairs to help each other target specific enemy units. When they do this, one unit is the Observer unit and the other is their Guided unit. The enemy they are targeting is called their Spotted unit.

The problem is they seem to have overlooked that a unit that has shot is still eligible to shoot so that means it can be selected as on Observer unit. You can have one unit be the Observer for another unit and then turn around and have that unit be the Observer for it because being a Guided unit doesn't prevent you from being an Observer.

What torturous logic are we using to arrive at that language-straining conclusion? A unit that has shot is not eligible to shoot because you can only shoot once. Once it has shot it can’t shoot again so is no longer eligible to shoot. Plain English says nope, for one.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
What torturous logic are we using to arrive at that language-straining conclusion? A unit that has shot is not eligible to shoot because you can only shoot once. Once it has shot it can’t shoot again so is no longer eligible to shoot. Plain English says nope, for one.

The torturous logic, as you put it, is reading the rules as written

Shooting phase, 1st paragraph

In your Shooting phase, if you have one or more eligible units
from your army on the battlefield, you can select those units,
one at a time, and shoot with them. Each unit can only be
selected to shoot once per phase. Once all of the units you
selected have shot, progress to your Charge phase.
A unit is eligible to shoot unless any of the following apply:
■ That unit Advanced this turn.
■ That unit Fell Back this turn.

You are still eligible to shoot after you have shot, you are just in the situation you can do so only once. If they added a third bullet point 'That unit has shot this phase/turn' then you would indeed have a point. However, RAW, you can daisy chain markerlights

yup, thats clear as daylight, now you could argue until the cows come home about what was intended and if this is a result of cutting to fit a page count or whatever.

however elsewhere it is noted that units without guns are also eligible to shoot, and also noted, again elsewhere, that units with 'Assault' weapons can ignore the first bullet point, and some units can ignore the second. And then a T'au unit with a marker drone can also observe if it advanced

note that also adding a third bullet of "must have not already fired this turn" can then itself interact with other stuff that requires a unit to be eligible to shoot, e.g. some of the objectives.

essentially if this gets an FAQ I would hope its errata to "For The Greater Good" itself, and not more generally

also note how being eligible to shoot, and actually shooting, are separate things from the rules above

you can only be selected to shoot once, but observing is not shooting


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
It is not that hard to read their intent then the first paragraph of the rule is:

If your Army Faction is T’au Empire, then in your Shooting phase units from your army can work in pairs to help each other target specific enemy units. When they do this, one unit is the Observer unit and the other is their Guided unit. The enemy they are targeting is called their Spotted unit.

The problem is they seem to have overlooked that a unit that has shot is still eligible to shoot so that means it can be selected as on Observer unit. You can have one unit be the Observer for another unit and then turn around and have that unit be the Observer for it because being a Guided unit doesn't prevent you from being an Observer.

they cannot quite turn around and guide each other as units which have observed already are specifically excluded from being guided - which is why you have to get the order of this right to make it work

For those following through this thread, please note that the newly released rules commentary has added the following statement: (the version 1.3 rules commentary)

Eligible to Shoot (when equipped with ranged weapons): Unless a rule specifically states otherwise, units that have shot are no longer eligible to shoot until the start of the next phase.

Who could have foreseen this conclusion!

It was such a shock.

especially since its buried in a "rules commentary", not in an actual FAQ or errata to the actual rules

its like GW set a fixed page count for the "rules" and then decided to double the length with an additional document with stuff not in the printed book but which you also need

plus side though, nicely clarified, but can still guide and be guided within engagement range

which is nice

even if the hammerhead cannot now get lucky and spat a squad in a single shot

which to be honest, is also nice