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As a follow up to the thread about non-Chaos/xenos uprisings, it's my personal belief that there needs to be to an organized human rebellion against the Imperium of Mankind large enough to be its own faction that isn't the product of another Chaos or Genestealer cult. Before anyone says that it would be crushed immediately, remember that even in the best of times, it would take years, sometimes decades, to respond to a threat. With the Imperium as broken as it is now with the Great Rift, and with the Imperium's best forces focusing on the most existential of threats, I think that a large uprising has a much greater chance of gaining traction. This is especially true in the Imperium Nihilus, where Imperial central control is almost non-existent.

Here's my take on what a rebellion could look like. A group of systems in the Dark Imperium, close enough together so as to not need the warp to travel between them, take it upon themselves to liberate themselves from whatever Imperial forces are left on their worlds, and then decide to start their own crusade to liberate the galaxy from the Imperium's tyranny. They don't want to actually destroy the Imperium and depose the Emperor like Chaos does, but instead overturn what they see as a cruel and corrupt system that has perverted the Emperor's original vision. Maybe some of the rebellion's leaders got their hands on some ancient documents with information about the Imperial truth and the Webway Project. For the rebels, their ideal system would be one where the Emperor technically remains in charge, but where the day to day ruling of the Imperium would fall on an elected legislature and executive rather than just the High Lords. The High Lords would remain but have significantly less authority than they do currently.

When dealing with the problem of expanding in a region where warp travel is almost impossible, I had the idea that part of the rebellion's ideology is that technological innovation, including a limited adoption of alien technology, is actually a good thing as it could help humanity's standard of living and better allow the Imperium to defeat its enemies. This could lead to them adopting stuff like the Tau's space travel technology that only skims the warp, as well as some of the simpler weapons of the Tau and maybe Eldar. Expansion into Imperium Sanctus could be done through secret agents who cross the Nachmund Gauntlet and who spread the rebellion's message to semi-isolated worlds. By the time the Imperium responded to all of this, due to having to fight against threats like Leviathan and Abaddon, the rebellion could already be entrenched and difficult to root out. Things could be complicated further with Guilliman and his supporters torn about how much of the Imperium's military should be used to crush the rebellion when there are much more dangerous, immediate threats. Also, it's entirely possible that Guilliman and some members of his faction agreeing with a few of the rebellion's ideas, given his hatred of how corrupt and backward the Imperium has become.

What do you guys all think? I personally think that this could be a cool idea that could allow for there to be an anti-Imperium faction that isn't just the way they are because of daemons whispering their ear or alien parasites in their brain.

Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

Honestly with the whole "cut the imperium in half" act they were going for I was thinking that one direction they might be taking the lore is to have the Imperium fragment into two parts.

One part the traditional bit we know and love; the other part perhaps fragmenting into more warring factions or reliant on Imperial Guard with less call for Marines.


But my view was it was less of a system to promote another group of Imperial models, and more one that would allow for a weakening of AntiXenos elements. Thus allowing a few more "Tau" scale races to get their heads up and establish themselves.


So instead of another human imperial force; allowing for another fully alien force to help build diversity into the game.

We wont get this because a lot of 40k fandom is jerking yourself raw to the idea of space marines crushing and murdering "soft" governments and structures of the sort that historically end up beating the asses of or running technological circles around high control regimes.


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 Overread wrote:
Honestly with the whole "cut the imperium in half" act they were going for I was thinking that one direction they might be taking the lore is to have the Imperium fragment into two parts.

One part the traditional bit we know and love; the other part perhaps fragmenting into more warring factions or reliant on Imperial Guard with less call for Marines.


But my view was it was less of a system to promote another group of Imperial models, and more one that would allow for a weakening of AntiXenos elements. Thus allowing a few more "Tau" scale races to get their heads up and establish themselves.


So instead of another human imperial force; allowing for another fully alien force to help build diversity into the game.

You could very much make the argument that Votann is designed at least in part to appeal to this kind of a person that wants a more 'sci-fi' non imperial but still human styled race.

chaos0xomega wrote:Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

Agreed, Nurgle just wants to spread his love.

the_scotsman wrote:We wont get this because a lot of 40k fandom is jerking yourself raw to the idea of space marines crushing and murdering "soft" governments and structures of the sort that historically end up beating the asses of or running technological circles around high control regimes.

Those same people complained about the T'au and Warhammer Kids and GW did them anyway. If GW want to do something, they will do it.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Chaos *is* the rebel alliance. All the stuff about them being evil and corrupt, etc. is just imperial propaganda and/or grimdark styling.

Agreed, Nurgle just wants to spread his love.

the_scotsman wrote:We wont get this because a lot of 40k fandom is jerking yourself raw to the idea of space marines crushing and murdering "soft" governments and structures of the sort that historically end up beating the asses of or running technological circles around high control regimes.

Those same people complained about the T'au and Warhammer Kids and GW did them anyway. If GW want to do something, they will do it.

Well, yeah. Everyone talking about what GW should do with Warhammer who is someone who plays one or more of the games isn't GW's primary market. Highly encourage checking out some of the interviews on 'the painting phase' on youtube for some perspective if you haven't already. I include myself here.

For just one little tidbit to let you know how irrelevant your wants are: In the not too distant past GW identified that the largest share of their income came from 35-50 year old women.

So, moms. You, reader, with your 2000+ point model collection and your existing collection of paints and knowledge of hobby brands? You are not the primary Games Workshop market.

I don’t entirely disagree. But. The Imperium has Inquisitors for exactly this reason.

Not just sniffing out and squelching Chaos and Genestealer Cults, but also more mundane ‘our life sucks and we demand better’ type rebellions.

The latter just lack the organisational and esoteric natures of the former.

Yes, a given Sector could rise up. But to do so, there’s going to be warfare before they can spread from their planet. Which means overthrowing or corrupting the Governor. The latter of that means promising the Governor something more than they already have (absolute power, vast wealth, a life of abject luxury).

I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters fighting against tyranny and all that with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

You know, just how Imperial characters can convince themselves that the IoM isn't horrible and a narrative that is willing to follow the joke.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly with the whole "cut the imperium in half" act they were going for I was thinking that one direction they might be taking the lore is to have the Imperium fragment into two parts.

One part the traditional bit we know and love; the other part perhaps fragmenting into more warring factions or reliant on Imperial Guard with less call for Marines.


But my view was it was less of a system to promote another group of Imperial models, and more one that would allow for a weakening of AntiXenos elements. Thus allowing a few more "Tau" scale races to get their heads up and establish themselves.


So instead of another human imperial force; allowing for another fully alien force to help build diversity into the game.

That's what I would do, along with a split jn the Imperial Creed where Imperium Nihilus focuses on a more Sanguinius-focused version of the faith that actually values compassion etc whereas Imperium Sanctus remains the soul-crushing evil that there already is.

When it comes to The Imperium, consider very very few inhabitants leave their home world, let alone work station/assigned job/what have you.

And even when they do, they’re incredibly, beyond our comprehension, sheltered and indoctrinated. And most still won’t see anything in the wide galaxy to challenge that view, because they’re set about defending hearth and home.

 Tyran wrote:
I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters fighting against tyranny and all that with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

You know, just how Imperial characters can convince themselves that the IoM isn't horrible and a narrative that is willing to follow the joke.

Right, the problem is too many of the narratives, and too much of the fanbase, think that the Imperium not being horrible isn't a joke.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t entirely disagree. But. The Imperium has Inquisitors for exactly this reason.

Not just sniffing out and squelching Chaos and Genestealer Cults, but also more mundane ‘our life sucks and we demand better’ type rebellions.

The latter just lack the organisational and esoteric natures of the former.

Yes, a given Sector could rise up. But to do so, there’s going to be warfare before they can spread from their planet. Which means overthrowing or corrupting the Governor. The latter of that means promising the Governor something more than they already have (absolute power, vast wealth, a life of abject luxury).

The Inquisition can't be everywhere all at once. Also, in a region where Imperial authority has broken down, they would be a lot less effective in putting down rebellions. As for governors, again, this is why it would be an armed rebellion, to overthrow the old order.

And how exactly are those rebels going to protect themselves from Chaos' influence and corruption without the Imperium, its faith, its inquisition and its never ending workdays ? That's...the whole point of the setting.
That's diminishing the whole story and can't work in 40k, I understand the appeal, but 40k isn't this kind of setting

Hecaton wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters fighting against tyranny and all that with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

You know, just how Imperial characters can convince themselves that the IoM isn't horrible and a narrative that is willing to follow the joke.

Right, the problem is too many of the narratives, and too much of the fanbase, think that the Imperium not being horrible isn't a joke.

You can still have your own narrative. Narratives don't need to be consistent with each other.

I mean, look at Day of Ascension. It presents a Genestealer Cult as an heroic resistance group, the protagonist has a honest to Hive Mind hero journey and her faith on the "Many Handed Emperor" (aka the Great Devourer) while shaken is framed as a good thing that helps her overcome the blatantly oppressive and villainous Admech. It is an entire narrative build around "what if the Genestealer Hybrids were the good guys?" and commits to it.

Obviously it doesn't mean the Genestealer Cult are actually the good guys, but it is a superb example of how to frame an usually villainous portrayed faction.

 godardc wrote:
And how exactly are those rebels going to protect themselves from Chaos' influence and corruption without the Imperium, its faith, its inquisition and its never ending workdays ? That's...the whole point of the setting.
That's diminishing the whole story and can't work in 40k, I understand the appeal, but 40k isn't this kind of setting

Except it's been shown that much of the Imperium's behavior feeds Chaos as much as it hurts it. A faction dedicated to genuinely making things better for everyone and not committing atrocities every five minutes would be far more antithetical to Chaos than much of what the Imperium does. Also, this group does not necessarily have to ditch Emperor worship, which is a potent tool against Chaos, just make use of a version that isn't so reactionary and bloodthirsty.

I do like the idea above of a split Imperium with one side working to have a more idealistic, Sanguinius-style of rule and the other being ruled with the traditional style.

I like that idea as well.

How to fight Chaos without the Imperium? With aggression and adequate firepower, isn't this how other non-imperial factions deal with them?

I'm actually gonna go ahead and think this sort of rebel factions already exist in the setting, they are just too "miniscule" in scope to register in the Grim epicness of the Black Library, where there are only Memes..

I think an army like that would be a really cool project, but one that could be easily fit into one or more current armies. IG, or course, but also the non-MEQ parts of CSM, or even cults, votann, or admech.

There's an old joke about 40k, that if tournaments mimicked the lore, by far the most common matchup would be Orks on Orks, followed by IG on IG....

And in the 40k universe, such a faction would be corrupted quickly and fall from within. Either by agents of chaos, or by instability fomented by the Imperial Inquisition. It’s a fundamental part of the background that nobody is allowed nice things

Also, the freedom of the background is that anyone could make up such a force with their own plot armour as to why it doesn’t get scotched toot sweet. Pick a codex and model up some noblebright space warriors of awesomeness!


D’oh - ninja’d

 godardc wrote:
And how exactly are those rebels going to protect themselves from Chaos' influence and corruption without the Imperium, its faith, its inquisition and its never ending workdays ? That's...the whole point of the setting.
That's diminishing the whole story and can't work in 40k, I understand the appeal, but 40k isn't this kind of setting

Just by not being donkey-caves. The issue is that in the Imperium, everything sucks so bad that Chaos looks like a good alternative. That isn't the case for other regimes.

 Tyran wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
I have come to believe we just need "good" Chaos viewpoints. Not as they actually being good but Chaos characters that genuinely believe they are freedom fighters with a narrative that is sympathetic to them.

Right, too many of the narratives think that the Imperium not being horrible isn't a joke.

You can still have your own narrative. Narratives don't need to be consistent with each other.

I mean, look at Day of Ascension. It presents a Genestealer Cult as an heroic resistance group, the protagonist has a honest to Hive Mind hero journey and her faith on the "Many Handed Emperor" (aka the Great Devourer) while shaken is framed as a good thing that helps her

Obviously it doesn't mean the Genestealer Cult are actually the good guys, but it is a superb example of how to frame an usually villainous portrayed faction.

This idea about characters having actual agency or self interest is one of the best takes. The characters can have their own points of view, their own welfar, the welfare of their units and Allie’s they’ve met in the story, and they have to advance those. Those probably aren’t the same as whatever mission they’ve been given by their faction. Even Imperial characters are usually either colonial levies if they’re guard, or kidnapped kids marines. The rest of the faction doesn’t want the best for them, so it’s possible to write a story where what the character wants is glory for themselves, safety for their friends, whatever their personal goals are. In the case of Day of Ascension, that includes the character’s POV of supporting her cult.

It’s not a coincidence that the author of Day of Ascension is the BL author who is most successful outside of BL, setting aside Mr Starlord

The Badab war was basically the maelstrom wardens getting tired of the Imperium’s nonsense and seceding.

Huron didn’t fall to chaos until the end/after the war.

There will never be a good Rebel Alliance in 40K because 40K is a tragic setting where the good guys are bad and the bad guys are even worst.

Hecaton wrote:
Just by not being donkey-caves. The issue is that in the Imperium, everything sucks so bad that Chaos looks like a good alternative. That isn't the case for other regimes.

Chaos is far more subtle than that. For example, if your child was dying and the doctors couldn't do anything wouldn't you be tempted to accept a favor from Nurgle, even if it meant sacrificing yourself? Can you really say you'd be able to tell the exact line where "party and do some fun drugs" goes from harmless entertainment to accepting the temptations of Slaanesh?

Don't know about the rest of ya guys, but when a party reaches that point where they take out the knives, skull-fething apparatus and PVC laced tentacles, That's usually my cue for GTFO

It's a fundamental part of Warhammer 40'000 that every faction is depraved, and there is basically no sensible alternative in sight. The main rebel factions are Chaos and Genestealer Cults. It's a great setup together with the counter-productive tyranny of the Imperium. It's part of the comic tragedy, and the satire kicking on all sides.

But I agree. Non-Chaos and non-Xenos uprisings are a dime a dozen. It would be sweet to have them represented with rules and even models in some fashion, however minor. It would also give more internal beef for Inquisitors to hunt down on tabletop. Such rebels could work especially well if background and art played up their resentment and often cruel methods and ruthless leadership. Throw in mentions of many (temporarily?) successful rebellions ending in reigns of terror or bloody dictatorships of their own á la reality, and you're good to go. Grimdark.

In the meanwhile, playing Imperial Guard as local rebels is the closest we have.

The rebel alliance were such a bunch of intolerable dogooders, there is no place for that in 40K.

Don’t forget the wider Imperium is organised to severely limit the impact of such rebellion, regardless of the driving factor.

A single world or system declaring secession? Enjoy being blockaded, and you better hope you’ve your own Agriworld to feed your population because you’re not gonna be importing much of anything.

You also have a fleet designed to be little march for an Imperial Navy Battlegroup.

Guard Regiments don’t have their own fleet assets either, with transport being arranged by the Munitorum when moving forces around,

So any such rebellion is typically easily contained, even if eradicating it takes rather more time and effort.




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Though, for anyone interested? 2000AD ran a Dan Abnett and Colin MacNeil collaboration called “Insurrection”.

It’s about a frontier world where in order to help see off an alien invasion, the resident Judges granted full citizenship to Muties, Droids and Uplifts, who break away from Mega City One’s rule in the aftermath.

It has serious 40K stylings to it as one might expect given the creative pairing. So if you’re looking for narrative hooks, not to mention a damned fine slice of comic book? You could do worse than giving it a read

And it’s a pretty fair £9.99 for the digital edition

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
It's a fundamental part of Warhammer 40'000 that every faction is depraved, and there is basically no sensible alternative in sight. The main rebel factions are Chaos and Genestealer Cults. It's a great setup together with the counter-productive tyranny of the Imperium. It's part of the comic tragedy, and the satire kicking on all sides.

But I agree. Non-Chaos and non-Xenos uprisings are a dime a dozen. It would be sweet to have them represented with rules and even models in some fashion, however minor. It would also give more internal beef for Inquisitors to hunt down on tabletop. Such rebels could work especially well if background and art played up their resentment and often cruel methods and ruthless leadership. Throw in mentions of many (temporarily?) successful rebellions ending in reigns of terror or bloody dictatorships of their own á la reality, and you're good to go. Grimdark.

In the meanwhile, playing Imperial Guard as local rebels is the closest we have.

Imperial Guard as more militaristic rebels or where they have successfully infiltrated the PDF or any local Guard regiments.

Genestealer Cult armies can still work as "counts as" even for non-Genestealer Cult rebellions. The Neophytes are your rebellious underclass/miners. Others might be mutants, rogue psykers, demagogues. The kelermorph can be a local gunslinger hero.

Chaos cultists can represent any local religious cults or rogue psykers, even if not necessarily Chaos.


Successful rebellions find themselves in the awkward position then of having to deal with the same problems the Imperium did. What to do with rogue psykers? How to juggle all the varied demands of the population? The oppressed working class will want better living conditions, more or better rations etc... The wealthy will want to maintain their wealth or expand their wealth and power. The threat of Imperial retribution hangs over everything. The rebels find that when they are suddenly in charge, actually ruling turns out to be harder than rebelling in the first place.

If they are very lucky and everything succeeds, then they may be written off by the Imperium reclassifying their area as "wilderness space" to scrub the history of them ever succeeding in rebelling, and they may then just become another small pocket empire of their own.

Rick Priestley originally intended a wider variety of human societies spread across the galaxy but the company pivoted to "moar marines" and he scuttled those ideas.

If they continue to evolve the storyline, it would be interesting to see independent micro-empires of different humans pop up. Im not going to hold my breath, mind you, but it would be interesting.

It could even be lightly supported with an Independent Worlds Upgrade Pack with head swaps, icons, and transfer sheets or something. Or maybe Mundus Independicus for IP reasons. Heck, they could repurpose one of their GravBricks and call it the 42nd Millennium Falcon.

Either way, once you crack open the book, the universe is yours to play with.

Edit: typos

Yes, at this point I feel something like this is needed.

GW is unable to the subtlety of storytelling that is required to portray "no one is good" universe properly, so we usually end up as fascist, totalitarian imperium as "the good guys" in the narrative.

To avoid this we need honestly decent human faction for contrast, and scrappy underdog freedom fighter faction is perfect for that.