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Perhaps as a sign of how out of touch I have become, is it confirmed that the Squats, Demiurge and Legion of Voltron are in fact one and the same?







Or is it more a wink and a nod sort of thing left for us to guess?

From the five page discussion thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/807357.page

 Gert wrote:
Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

Officially, "Squats" is a slang-term sometimes used by humans to refer to members of the Leagues of Votann.

I don't think they're connected to the Legion of Voltron, though. That sounds more like a Tau-affiliated group.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Perhaps as a sign of how out of touch I have become, is it confirmed that the Squats, Demiurge and Legion of Voltron are in fact one and the same?

Or is it more a wink and a nod sort of thing left for us to guess?

no, its official they are all branches of the same race. The League of Votann is their core civilisation, which sits deep in the normally uninhabitable Galactic Core (which is why they are generally not well known). they refer to themselves as "kin" (though that term is not exclusive to their race. they refer to AI's of sufficient intelligence as Kin and treat them as full members of society). they are discribed as "straddling the line between abhuman and xenos", and make extensive use of genetic engineering to adapt to thier situation.

"squats" is a somewhat rude name given to the Kin who live in imperial space as abhumans, most notably the ones on Necromunda. The necromunda squats are explictly not in regular contact with the Leagues, though both accept the other as being of the same race.

the "Demiurge " are the Kin who dealt with the Tau, and sold them Ion technology. These appear to me almost entirely fleet based group, which gave credance to the idea that they were the last surviors of a dying race, but they are in regular contact with the main Kin leagues in the core, so its not a total offshoot.

The Kin actively exploit their ability to appear human to the xenophobic humans, and xenos to human-phobic aliens, for fun and profit.

When it comes to Demiurg, it’s also implied there’s a certain “plausible deniability” there, as should the Imperium find out the Kin are arms dealers to others, it’s likely to attract unwanted attention, such as “Stop That!” Crusade, or even refusal to trade.

But yeah. Kin, Squats, Demiurg (and some others, if I recall correctly) are one and the same in species, if not necessarily culture.

Most beings don’t know about LOV even if they are familiar with some squats or demiurge. LOV have been very secretive is what I remember from their lore.

I also think that squats living on necromunda, for example, don’t use cloning to reproduce and they do “it” the old fashioned way. So they they don’t have lots of different genetic options like members of the leagues

 solkan wrote:
From the five page discussion thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/807357.page

 Gert wrote:
Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

Thank you. Good thread.

I like the idea of the Liaison of Voltaire but not enthused by the execution. The 70s sci fi look really does nothing for me. Especially when the Steampunk Epic Squats and AoS Sky Dwarves would make a perfect marriage.

But still some interesting stuff in there, reminds of the Zentrati from Robotech, a clone race bioengineered to love their work.

form my understanding, the Leagues have been strongly isolationist for most of their history, generally sticking to their home worlds in the core, and making only a occasionally forays into the wider galaxy. The imperium has in fact had many contacts with them, its just a combination of their significant differences between kin due to genetic manipulation, careful choices by the leagues about what they say and dont say, and to who, plus the generally secretive nature of the Imperium means the Imperium never really connected the various sighting as being all the same race as opposed to assorted minor xenos or abhuman groups. it was mainly the distruptions caused by the Great Rift that has forced the Leagues to operate much more openly outside the Core and the imperium has managed to connect the dots on their actions.

also, the Leagues are not a single polity with unified goals and policy, but a collection of minor nations that share a mostly uniform cultural background and outlook, rather like the city-states of Greece or medieval Italy, or the Ork Klans.

Hey look its me.
Was quite chuffed with that explanation when I did it, nice to see someone else use it as a reference.

Remember when Leagues of Vodafone were announced and early references to them, the Demiurg, and Squats all being the same species were made on livestream and in WarCom, etc. and people kept insisting they were not and arguing against anyone who even suggested it?

Heh, good times. I hope those people feel silly.

To be fair GW spent years going:
The Demiurg are Xenos
The Demiurg are Xenos
The Demiurg are Xenos
The Squats are Abhumans
The Squats are Abhumans
The Squats are Abhumans

I think it was Jervis who said the Demiurg are based on the same dwarf *archetype* as Squats

You can't blame fans for being skeptical of GW turning around and going "actually scrap what we've been saying for 20 years, they're the same thing" on the basis of a couple of vague offhand comments in Warcom

Ah, the Squats.

Here in the States, there's a linguistic distinction between various poses. For example, a man might "hunker down" and be engaged in thought, or planning, but when a guy "squats," there's an assumption that he's attending to a call of nature.

This is why "Epic Squats" always elicited a certain amount of laughter on this side of the pond.

"How's Bob?"

"Oh, he came down with a case of epic squats."

"Wow, hope he feels better."

When I embarked on my quest to build every army of 2nd ed. 40k, the Squats gave me pause. For one thing, there were hard to find. For another, Squats didn't really feel unique. The Dwarf stat line didn't mean much. Human leg infantry was painfully slow, and the IG in that edition cornered the market on the "armored fist."

That's why I think they faded away. Squat exo-armor was a weaker version of Terminators, and their superior WS didn't matter much in a game dominated by shooting.

Nice to see GW is still strip-mining its more creative years, though.

For another, Squats didn't really feel unique. The Dwarf stat line didn't mean much. Human leg infantry was painfully slow, and the IG in that edition cornered the market on the "armored fist."

That's why I think they faded away. Squat exo-armor was a weaker version of Terminators, and their superior WS didn't matter much in a game dominated by shooting.

Bit of a detour, but do people think LoV feel sufficiently distinctive in modern 40k? When they came out, I remember thinking that they seemed really similar to admech/marines. Like, on the guardsman-to-custodes spectrum, it seemed like they were making admech scootch over next to sisters and would have been sitting on first borns' laps if firstborn didn't have a second wound.

Like, their infantry is steady-moving, better armor than a guardsman but usually worse than a marine with a bunch of special weapons squeezed into a single unit and some big chonky robots (well, exosuits) backing them up. And their HQs are basically marine HQs with some robot companions.

But I'm also hard to sell on dwarves in general. Do the people that like LoV feel they have their own niche, and if so, what is that niche?

The wiki (fan-based as it is) states that the Demiurge are am off-shoot league of Votann.

Also remember that Squats in Necromunda look more similar to the old version because they've been away from the Leagues for quite some time, and it's assumed they've had to use old tech/ weaponry and.... "Do it the old fashioned way" vs cloning.

 Wyldhunt wrote:


But I'm also hard to sell on dwarves in general. Do the people that like LoV feel they have their own niche, and if so, what is that niche?

I'm in the same boat. I think a steampunk dwarf army would be aces, but the Lasers of Vietnam are just "near future-hold the anime", shorter hairier Tau. The occasional Norse touch is just out of place.

They look great, don't get me wrong, but distinct? Not really. I'd use AoS classic Dwarves or Sky Dwarves before the Lesions of Vaporware.

They’re a “what-if” and “what-about” of 40K lore answered, without being a complete, clear answer.

They represent higher end, pre-Crusade human technological might. We see the fruits of the STC clearly.

Visually there are design links to Kastellan Automata and House Van Saar “no honest, Dave just really really understands this stuff” tech. There are of course even hints of Imperial tech being derived from similar templates.

And all without outright answering everything, and throwing up even more questions. If you read my wibbling in the thread linked earlier, I find their possible status as engineered bio-automata, ultimately lacking in true free will horrifying and fascinating.

Their war gear is also an interesting design thing (paradigm?). You can tell it has its roots in civilian equipment, but being a properly thought out re-development into military capability, rather than “weld some plating on and call it armour”.

I love ‘em.

Space dwarfs feel funny to me. Not particularly original or anything but I feel they fit space fantasy well. I do admit on the other hand that 40k is not as silly and colorful as it used to be when squats were around so they might be out of place in current 40K. GW itself at some point admitted, IIRC, that they weren't happy with old squats.
As for LoV, judging pure aesthetic I feel there more sci fi, clean look is too remeniscent of the tau. Because of it I don't feel hyped thinkng about them.

That's ultimatly a matter of tastes though.

I think LOV have a lot of potential to very unique and fill an interesting gap in 40K law. Without the cult of the imperium they are an interesting window into the past of humanity with the big ancestor AIs and possible men of iron descendant AIs. I’d like to see this part of their army expanded and get some really esoteric AI war engines. Maybe even a whole league made up of AI life forms

They’re also on the brink of their own Dark Age.

As a society, whilst they’ve clearly preserve their STC’s better than anyone else? They’re still utterly dependant on them. So as the Votann start shutting down, or has happened at least once, gone insane? Their goes their tech base, and worse, their breeding programme.

mrFickle wrote:
I think LOV have a lot of potential to very unique and fill an interesting gap in 40K law. Without the cult of the imperium they are an interesting window into the past of humanity with the big ancestor AIs and possible men of iron descendant AIs. I’d like to see this part of their army expanded and get some really esoteric AI war engines. Maybe even a whole league made up of AI life forms

I still can't help but find a tau vibe in this.

The whole IA league however could be a good idea, but could easily be given over to the tau with Abominable intelligence starting to be a thing for them too.

Personnal thoughts.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


Lasers of Vietnam
Lesions of Vaporware.

Just wanted to say that I am really enjoying the utter contempt you are expressing for the faction through all of these diss names.

No, it's not contempt, it's just called a sense of humour

I'm really glad they brought back a 'dwarf in space' archetype as really they make more sense than any other fantasy trope (orcs or elves etc) with the whole mining, engineering and being comfortable in small space-thing which works well in the space setting.

It's neither, it's an inability to remember GWs coined names like the Latrines of Venice.

Why can't they just call them Space Dwarves?

Because that can't be copyrighted. Where have you been for the last decade?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Latrines of Venice.

That's a coffee table book.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's neither, it's an inability to remember GWs coined names like the Latrines of Venice.

Why can't they just call them Space Dwarves?

Yeah, like Age of Sigismund or whatever. All chock full of Yerch (not orcs) who fight the Aeiliedarerrr (totally not elves) who roam the Windsnarf of Smuglund fighting the sinister Cashhmere Sweaterzz.

So much trademarked gibberish.

Fantasy Dwarfs work because they're a classic heavy infantry army, basically Han Chinese - gunpowder, crossbows, no cavalry to speak of, dense units stoic resistance. Yeah, I know, they got the Tolkien gloss of being Super Saxon Housecarls, but it's an interesting tactical concept.

In the 40k universe, everyone has BFGs, and (except for that odd moment in 3rd when infantry could run faster than vehicles), driving is the way everyone gets around.

At least the Squats had some humor value - pint-sized biker dudes on comically oversized sidecar choppers.

As I said, I've looked at the lore, Black Codex and such, but I just don't feel there's much going on. Maybe as allies for color, but not a standalone army.

Careful there you might cut yourself on all the edge you just posted.

I don't think Leagues of Votann is any harder to remember than Adeptus Astartes or Adeptus Mechanicus, which have both been in the lore for decades. It isn't really any weirder than Craftworld Eldar instead of (light) Space Elves either.

Leagues of Votann at least sounds like an actual civilization rather than a mere trope like Space Dwarfs. Afterall, we call the main human faction the Imperium of Mankind, not Space Humans...

I mean, the Black Codex was a get-you-by index style list made during a period when GW have already said they had no idea what to do with the squats to bring them into like with the shift the rest of the setting was going through, so it's perhaps not the best place to look to get a feel for them.

They shone in Epic, where they could deploy cannons the size of titans and superheavy airships and their background was a lot more fleshed out as being technologically progressive (the Adeptus mechanicus destroyed Ganymede trying to replicate a Squat Warp-Plasma power generator) and their society was mapped out in a way very similar to what they chose to retain of the Leagues of Votann - just not clones, obviously

Almost everyone who expresses an opinion on Squats was not around in the hobby to experience them their first time round. They were entirely setting-appropriate for the period they were in - a time before GrimDark (Literally, Grimdark takes its name from the tagline of 3rd edition 40k, when it was becoming more widespread and mainstream). The Black Codex was the start of Second edition, and at that point the lore was becoming more settled and taking itself a little more seriously, the design team had already decided they weren't going to bring Squats into 2nd edition at that point.

Taking their RT/start of 3rd Lore and going "haha, lookit the silly biker dwarves, they don't fit in 40k" is like going "haha, lookit the half-Eldar Ultramarine Chief Librarian" or "Oh look that Inquisitor is named Obiwan Sherlock Clouseau" or "haha, Chaos Genestealer Cults with possessed patriarchs" - yes, they look silly when you examine them outside their original context, but if they had gone through the same complete transformative change every other race had gotten in the transitions from RT to 2nd to 3rd, then they'd have become a more serious and integrated part of the lore rather than the weird little biker parody they started of as, but the design studio couldn't think of a direction to take them in.

Remember: all WH40k lore is "true"- it just may or not be canon. Meaning- who knows if the Ordos Redacticus got to it yet...

One of the first introductions to Squats for me was when GW put out Inquisitor range of Maxi-Minis, they republished Inquisitor, renamed Draco. While the whole novel didn't fit the 2000's background, the squats seemed really out there- I mean, sure and Inq. can have anyone in thier retinue, but when the mini- Sturges rejects showed up, I was aghast to say the least. Other things rankled me too- like the fact the Callidus assassin infiltrated purebred genestealers.. Uh, hello? Hive mind synapse?!?

I guess GW just didn't really know where to fit the stunties, and come up with a unique aesthetic for them. If you look at the old Ork range, it was... kinda derpy.

Example: Original Ghaz:


Take off the gun and you have an old WHFB orc warlord.
It was only after Gorkamorka came out that the orkks got thier ramshackle Mad Max vibe everyone loves so much that they got cool, IMHO:


But- back to stunties: To me it seems GW is trying to shoehorn/ retcon in more futuristic look to humans and the Squats are supposed to be Abhumans with dark age o' tech stuff, so it looks more tau-ish/ closer to primaris/ custodian stuff. Which means, GW had to have a reason why the Imperium's stuff looks different instead of "New edition, new look, deal with it".