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I know Scions can operate in space but can Kasrkin? According to Lexi, they have environmentally sealed suits but can they actually go in space with it? Underwater?

I can't speak to whether or not their default gear is void-proof. However, if someone wanted them to operate in space, it seems like it would be a simple matter of giving them some voidsuits and some extra training?

According to Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd edition, second codex), yes. Standard Cadian gear can be used for short periods in airless environments. This doesn't just include Kasrkin, line infantry carry the same basic equipment and respirator.

Well, your skidlid being vacuumed sealed and not needing other stuff for space isn’t the same thing

I’d imagine some Kasrkin will have training for void warfare - but that doesn’t rule out they’d need specific gear in addition to their usual kit.

It is certainly a stop gap. Cadians can operate in airless environments for short periods, they definitely won't be the first choice for doing so. Their default equipment is not going to be void-hardened, so vulnerable to failing under the rigours of combat, and is missing useful gear for manouevring in low-gravity like mag-lock boots.

Basically, a Cadian unit caught out in a transport ship or space installation isn't immediately doomed if the atmosphere is breached. I'd assume they'd use proper void suits if expecting prolonged void fighting.

As for training, I think that all Cadians will get void warfare training as part of their training rotations (assuming they live long enough to receive such training). We even have a colour scheme for Cadian Orbital Defense forces. I suspect that they will get rotated through postings on system space stations.

That seems like a waste of time, insofar as training everyone.

Regiments or units being deployed to Orbitals? Yes. Additional EVAC training seems very sensible - but I suspect once deployed.

If cycled out to a new war zone, you’ll then end up with a mix of Veterans with the training, and fresh blood without it.

It’s also worth keeping in mind that void warfare is the preserve of the Imperial Navy, not the Imperial Guard. So there’s another reason void/EVAC training may very well be a comparatively rare specialism within the Imperial Guard itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though to cleave closer to topic? I can see Kasrkin being far more likely to receive such specialist, otherwise niche training. Not necessarily as standard, but more likely to receive it over other units.

Caveat: the following is based on lore prior to the Fall of Cadia. Surviving Cadian regiments and Cadian colonies could have different patterns of training and deployment.

So the way Cadia seemed to train and deploy its units was to rotate out individual companies out separate from the main body of the regiment. For example, prior to the 13th Black Crusade, the Cadian 8th had several companies deployed to hostile environment training on Prosan, garrison duties on fortress worlds in the system, and attached to Inquisitors. This equated to half the regiment. It may be the case that smaller formations are parcelled off.

We have this information for units garrisoning Cadian orbital defenses:


Note that the Cadian 512th is a full Imperial Guard regiment, but a portion of it is on orbital defense duties.

The implication is that every Cadian stationed in the Cadian system would be expected to rotate through an orbital deployment at some point and presumably receive relevant training prior to and/or during that deployment. I have no idea how often units rotate or how early they would start this (would whiteshield platoons rotate with the full unit they are shadowing? Is it full guardsmen only? Do cadets get some basic void training before even joining the whiteshields?). It is likely that a proportion of Cadians have not received their orbital rotation yet and die in service before they ever do, but what proportion is unknown. I'd expect that if a unit survives long enough it can be rotated to an orbital deployment more than once.

Such training would also be applicable when on transport vessels moving into new warzones, and the Imperial Guard do engage in void operations against enemy forces on airless moons or asteroids (see Elysians for a notable example), or in space stations.

Still a big assumption being assigned to an Orbital platform must include EVA training.

We also have ongoing backfilling of casualties throughout a Regiment or Company’s service. In an ideal world, you’d try to backfill with veterans from places that suffered higher casualties, creating Veteran Companies/Regiments, but this is 40K and so it seems most likely whilst that remains the ideal, you get what you’re bloody well given at the time and be happy with it.

And, being able to survive a short time in a vacuum in Hostile Environment equipment doesn’t suggest it’s something really factored into battle plans.

Training to get across smallish areas open to the void without having to go the long way round still pressurised areas? Sure. But not fighting in the void as a standard.

Again I’m very happy to concede if anyone does get “proper” void/EVA training, it’ll be Kasrkin or similar elite regimental assets.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Still a big assumption being assigned to an Orbital platform must include EVA training.

We also have ongoing backfilling of casualties throughout a Regiment or Company’s service. In an ideal world, you’d try to backfill with veterans from places that suffered higher casualties, creating Veteran Companies/Regiments, but this is 40K and so it seems most likely whilst that remains the ideal, you get what you’re bloody well given at the time and be happy with it.

And, being able to survive a short time in a vacuum in Hostile Environment equipment doesn’t suggest it’s something really factored into battle plans.

Training to get across smallish areas open to the void without having to go the long way round still pressurised areas? Sure. But not fighting in the void as a standard.

Again I’m very happy to concede if anyone does get “proper” void/EVA training, it’ll be Kasrkin or similar elite regimental assets.

That is fair, but I'd also argue it is an equally big leap that Cadians assigned to Cadian orbital defenses don't train for combat in that environment. Otherwise, they will be combat ineffective as soon as their fighting position loses atmosphere. Given this occurs very commonly as a result of most of the boarding techniques used in 40k, such as boarding torpedos and Dreadclaw assault pods, it could be expected that units defending a space station will have to negotiate a loss of atmosphere during combat. Really only teleporter attacks won't risk breaching the hull.

In terms of what such training involves, I'd expect it to at least include emergency training- how to make a fighting withdrawal from a breached compartment to a sealed compartment. However, units deployed to an orbital detail probably get proper void equipment rather than basic gear and may have significantly greater capabilities, otherwise they cannot do their role in repelling common boarding action scenarios. They are not on board a space station to look pretty! Those troops could be deployed elsewhere if they cannot fight in orbital conditions effectively. I do think any focus would be on skills for active defense of space defenses- so fighting inside breached corridors and rooms rather than true EVA outside the space station.

Generally speaking, there is little point providing equipment with a capability if there is not at least rudimentary training in that capability, or a soldier will not reliably do it during combat stress. Cadians are known to train from early childhood and are uncommonly competent. I am confident they typically train to exploit the capabilities of their equipment, where circumstances allow. I don't think this is going to compare to troops explicitly focused on void warfare, like Naval armsmen, but it is likely above the standard of most guardsmen. As mentioned, Elysians do explicitly have EVA training and frequently fight in airless environments in their home system, so there is precedence for some Guard fighting in space. We also have examples like the Arcadian 26th rifles repelling a boarding assault by Orks upon their transport vessel. This suggests basic void combat within the confines of vessels is not unheard of, although the Arcadians are noted as being unusual in successfully counter-attacking onto the Ork vessel and causing it to disengage.

Re. regimental replenishment. The Cadian example above was for units stationed in the Cadian system, so would be replenished from Cadian stock. How training and replenishment would look for Cadians moved out of Cadia is going to vary massively depending on circumstances. Even more so with the loss of Cadia (the planet not the system) and the formation of Cadian colonies.

Possibly. Maybe. They’d still need specialist kit for EVA combat.

As for replenishment? We know from general background and the Cain novels in particular that a fairly common practice is to fold depleted regiments into one more or less full, occasionally over, strength Regiment.

Even then, not all Veterans will be Veterans of the same theatres. So assuming say, the VIIIth and XVth are merged? There’s nothing to say both have the same theatre specific training. Again in an ideal world that would be preferable, but 40K gonna 40K

Overall, I am persuaded Kasrkin are the most likely candidates for EVA combat. They’re superior troops overall, and their standard sidearm seems most likely to breach enemy armour, and thus the enemy’s own void protection, making for swifter kills.

I don't like the use of the term extra vehiclar activity (EVA) in this context. Little void combat is going to be EVA, it will be inside space stations and vessels (which may be breached and airless, but still a contained environment) or on and in airless asteroids and moons. These are very different environments to open space, where there is a huge risk that the wrong move or impact sends you off into the depths of space, never to be seen again. Ship corridors are little different to tunnels or bunkers, except the atmosphere and gravity can dissappear due to enemy action.

If you look at Naval armsmen, they are poorly equipped for true EVA- they have no manouevring gear when not attached to ship decking. The mag-boots are great in corridors and probably useful on the exterior of a ship's hull, but not helpful if moving across the void. Contrast to even basic power armour, which has manouevring thrusters as standard. Elysians probably do have EVA training and equipment, because it seems grav chutes can still be used in space and include integral thrusters.

I have no idea what proportion of Cadians have been deployed to an orbital detail (it could be low), but I think it would be odd if those that have didn't know how to fight in void situations within ship/station corridors and rooms. That isn't the same as EVA and probably requires much more available equipment. Those skills would then be transferable to their basic gear for short periods of time in a pinch.

Re. equipment- void suits and training are common enough that Naval ratings will wear them for boarding actions, under the supervision of Naval armsmen of course. Ratings are essentially militia when it comes to fighting boarding actions- they have other duties usually and only get given weapons to repel boarders or for training drills. Not clear how widespread the use of void suits by ratings is within a given vessel or the Navy in general. It probably varies at the discretion of the captain. This gear will also be inferior to the armsmen armour.

Agree re. Kasrkin being most likely to be trained for void combat- supported by their use in the Kill team space hulk narrative.

I'm not really sure of the relevance of veterans to this discussion? Is it regarding dissemination of skills? Most of this lore about Cadians comes from those stationed in the Cadian system on garrison duties, so veterans and replenishment of casualties are not particularly relevant to that. They are operating as PDF troops.

You'd only need specialist kit if that's your specialization, as daft as that might sound.

They'd likely have some kind of vacuum-sealed undersuit, which the regular uniform is layered over, and void-sealed helmet & glove setups with magboots...at least if we're talking about the guys stationed on the orbitals.

That's what makes the Scions "void-capable", by the by. They have a vacuum-sealed undersuit plus kit to keep the rest of them pressurized.

Nothing stopping anyone else from wearing Naval Armsmens' voidsuits though.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You'd only need specialist kit if that's your specialization, as daft as that might sound.

They'd likely have some kind of vacuum-sealed undersuit, which the regular uniform is layered over, and void-sealed helmet & glove setups with magboots...at least if we're talking about the guys stationed on the orbitals.

That's what makes the Scions "void-capable", by the by. They have a vacuum-sealed undersuit plus kit to keep the rest of them pressurized.

Nothing stopping anyone else from wearing Naval Armsmens' voidsuits though.

Time is, as are the Naval Armsmen who would take umbrage at some smelly Mere Guardsmen pilfering their kit. And of course, the joys of Munitorum bureaucracy and the availability of such things in the first place.

 Haighus wrote:
According to Codex: Imperial Guard (3rd edition, second codex), yes. Standard Cadian gear can be used for short periods in airless environments. This doesn't just include Kasrkin, line infantry carry the same basic equipment and respirator.

There's far more to deal with in space than just a lack of air.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

There's far more to deal with in space than just a lack of air.

Little skiing robots for one thing.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Time is, as are the Naval Armsmen who would take umbrage at some smelly Mere Guardsmen pilfering their kit. And of course, the joys of Munitorum bureaucracy and the availability of such things in the first place.

The Naval Armsmen wouldn't be involved, as the orbitals are manned by Munitorum personnel.

This might be a case of maybe could but not allowed. I would think void combat would be mostly handled by marines, and allowing guardsmen the equipment and training might violate the separation of powers between the Navy and the Guard.

That said, there's probably loopholes that could possibly allow it. Like maybe reclassifying those guardsmen as PDF, who might be expected to 'man' system defenses.

There's also the possibility that there's specially trained regiments that are meant to fight in low pressure and/or toxic worlds whose equipment would be indistinguishable from those used in void combat.

Though training large amounts of guardsmen to be able to assault and capture ships seems like asking for trouble.

Altima wrote:
This might be a case of maybe could but not allowed. I would think void combat would be mostly handled by marines, and allowing guardsmen the equipment and training might violate the separation of powers between the Navy and the Guard.

That said, there's probably loopholes that could possibly allow it. Like maybe reclassifying those guardsmen as PDF, who might be expected to 'man' system defenses.

There's also the possibility that there's specially trained regiments that are meant to fight in low pressure and/or toxic worlds whose equipment would be indistinguishable from those used in void combat.

Though training large amounts of guardsmen to be able to assault and capture ships seems like asking for trouble.

Astartes can't be everywhere. And the navy cant be everywhere too, even the lore on Vigilus says the navy had to bounce and leave the ground guys alone. I was thinking maybe a specialized unit, equivalent to the US Army 10th Mountain or something. A unit specifically tailored for such a role. I guess it would be the Orbital Defense guys and Kasrkin. Just wondering if every Kasrkin had training in it and had the equipment for it in their rucks. Similiar like how guys carried MOPP in Iraq. They dont wear it all the time but had it in case it was needed.

Imperial Guard fighting in space is not an issue. The separation of Guard and Navy relates to transport vs garrison- the Guard cannot transport themselves between worlds, the Navy lacks the manpower to hold a world. They must work together.

Elysians are a notable example of Guard with a specialism in void combat:
"The Elysia system and surrounding wilderness space is notorious for its marauding Ork warbands and pirates, as a main trade route through the sector passes through Elysia, and the system's many swirling gas clouds and hundreds of asteroid fields provide perfect ambush sites. Through combating this ever-present threat, the Elysians are therefore well trained in ship-to-ship boarding actions, and fighting in concert with orbital support when attacking isolated pirate bases."

Forgeworld used to sell the hazardous environment upgrades for Cadians, that would presumably be compatible with Kasrkin equipment as well. The models just aren't detailed enough to show how the spacemagic fabric of the hazardous environment kit doubles as void sealed space armour.

 Haighus wrote:
Imperial Guard fighting in space is not an issue. The separation of Guard and Navy relates to transport vs garrison- the Guard cannot transport themselves between worlds, the Navy lacks the manpower to hold a world. They must work together.

This seems inaccurate, as per the Phantine Air Corps:

The lack of open ground on Phantine meant that, when the time came for an Imperial Guard tithe, no ordinary regiments could be mustered. Imperial High Command made a special exception for the Phantine to be allowed to operate their own atmospheric fighter craft, despite the rule that no Imperial Guard regiment may provide its own air cover. The odd role of the Phantine means that they are not welcome among either regular Imperial Guard or Imperial Navy aviators, amongst whom they are forced to operate. However the Phantine has proven to be an extremely capable regiment and has begun to earn the grudging respect of navy fliers

The separation of powers between the navy and the guard is meant to cripple any potential betrayals--the guard won't be able to move from a planet, a ship won't be able to muster the arms and armament of dedicated combat regiments.

Altima wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
Imperial Guard fighting in space is not an issue. The separation of Guard and Navy relates to transport vs garrison- the Guard cannot transport themselves between worlds, the Navy lacks the manpower to hold a world. They must work together.

This seems inaccurate, as per the Phantine Air Corps:

The lack of open ground on Phantine meant that, when the time came for an Imperial Guard tithe, no ordinary regiments could be mustered. Imperial High Command made a special exception for the Phantine to be allowed to operate their own atmospheric fighter craft, despite the rule that no Imperial Guard regiment may provide its own air cover. The odd role of the Phantine means that they are not welcome among either regular Imperial Guard or Imperial Navy aviators, amongst whom they are forced to operate. However the Phantine has proven to be an extremely capable regiment and has begun to earn the grudging respect of navy fliers

The separation of powers between the navy and the guard is meant to cripple any potential betrayals--the guard won't be able to move from a planet, a ship won't be able to muster the arms and armament of dedicated combat regiments.

That quote.. Reinforces what he's saying?

Air-cover is combat oriented. Vendettas, Valkyries, and other such "combat" craft. Things which are explicitly said to be naval assets.

In the case of orbital garrisons you'll have a differentiation between garrison roles. So the Navy with crew the bombers, fights, interceptors, and other void assets. If something's in space and needs a kicking they're on it. Guards are the boots on the station itself, so that when the boarding-craft come they're fighting in the hallways and manning the defensive assets. They've probably got their own non-combat vessels as well, to move supplies and troops onto the station. Similar to how the various branches of the U.S. military work.

Found some more interesting snippets related to Imperial Guard in void warfare.

First is the Imperial Guard regiments from the world of Arminium:

This is a barren, airless world with important mineral deposits. The gear is clearly a pressure suit.

Secondly, I came across a short story in White Dwarf of (traitor) Guardsmen defending an "orbital hive" that was the main population centra around a gas giant.

So essentially, it appears that Imperial Guard can have jurisdiction over void habitats and airless moons/asteroids. I presume it depends on whether there is an Imperial Governor controlling the colony or not.

Edit: Orbital Hive 72 above the gas giant Porphyr III, from White Dwarf 276.

In addition to the above, there is another bit of information relating to Imperial Guard fighting in void conditions with the 3rd edition codex, contained within the page about the deployment distribution of the Bruttiam 23rd. Obviously not talking about Cadians, but interesting nonetheless.

The Bruttiam 23rd is a veteran regiment, deployed to garrison duties in the Xenthorp system after active campaign service (less than 1000 troopers remain, including attached forces). This includes a garrison on Xenthorp Major, Xenthorp Minor, and Imperial Monitoring Station 89/999c on a moon of Xenthorp 10.

The latter is notable, as the troopers deployed to the station are stated as being equipped with and trained in the use of type 97 pressure suits for combat on the moon. The wording is a little ambiguous and could mean the entire regiment is thus equipped and trained, but I think the following sentence about heavy weapons alterations for low gravity and airless environments strongly suggests only the station garrison is trained for void combat. The regiment also controls a civilian system ship for transport between the garrison planets and moon, upgraded with a single gun deck. System ships are void vessels but are not warp-capable and are tied to the system they are in. Typically, they are not controlled by the Imperial Navy but by the planetary goverment(s) in the system.

The regimental history states the regiment repelled Eldar raiders whilst garrisoning the system- chances are these would be corsairs and may have involved void combat, although the Eldar attacked Xenthorp Minor.

This is presented as fairly routine, so it seems Imperial Guard forces are frequently used in void combat scenarios and can be equipped for it as appropriate. However, it would also support that they are not trained for it as standard across the Guard (although some worlds obviously do, like Elysia and Arminius).

So Space Marines can’t be everywhere I figured the guard could. It would be similar to dudes putting on their mopp gear. They have it available but dont wear it all the time.

It’s really interesting (the lore). I was mainly talking about how Scions come standard equipped with the ability, would Kasrkin come standard equipped with it. But keep ok the discussions, it’s really interesting.

Until we get the Codex: Karskins, I doubt we'll get as extensive a breakdown of the Kasrkins gear as we did the Scion's, unfortunately.