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Hey folks!

Watching some youtubers, they brought up a point that made me wonder.

If a character in light armour mounts a chariot with a "counts as plate" 4+ save, and then grabs s shield, what's his save? The combined save rule says that it should use the highest armour value of the character and the mount, but a shield is a modifier. Might that modifier be applied to the character alone, or applied after the "highest armour value"?

Would this character have a 5+ or a 3+?

Iver wrote:
Hey folks!

Watching some youtubers, they brought up a point that made me wonder.

If a character in light armour mounts a chariot with a "counts as plate" 4+ save, and then grabs s shield, what's his save? The combined save rule says that it should use the highest armour value of the character and the mount, but a shield is a modifier. Might that modifier be applied to the character alone, or applied after the "highest armour value"?

Would this character have a 5+ or a 3+?

4+

You modify separately then pick the best of the two, which is the 4+ of the chariot rather than the 5+ of the actual character.

Just give your mounted TK characters two handed weapons, there’s no benefit to a shield.

There's maybe no benefit but giving your character a twohanded weapon will have "strike last" beter to give him a halbert, if he may have that

 skeleton wrote:
There's maybe no benefit but giving your character a twohanded weapon will have "strike last" beter to give him a halbert, if he may have that

I meant any weapon that requires two hands, not necessarily a great weapon.

Halberds and flails both good picks.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 skeleton wrote:
There's maybe no benefit but giving your character a twohanded weapon will have "strike last" beter to give him a halbert, if he may have that

I meant any weapon that requires two hands, not necessarily a great weapon.

Halberds and flails both good picks.

Even with a great weapon, a Tomb King on a chariot should be striking at I4 on the charge. Combine that with all the impact hits he and his unit of chariots are going to do, and I4 isn't a bad place to be.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Iver wrote:
Hey folks!

Watching some youtubers, they brought up a point that made me wonder.

If a character in light armour mounts a chariot with a "counts as plate" 4+ save, and then grabs s shield, what's his save? The combined save rule says that it should use the highest armour value of the character and the mount, but a shield is a modifier. Might that modifier be applied to the character alone, or applied after the "highest armour value"?

Would this character have a 5+ or a 3+?

4+

You modify separately then pick the best of the two, which is the 4+ of the chariot rather than the 5+ of the actual character.

Just give your mounted TK characters two handed weapons, there’s no benefit to a shield.

The rules have some hiccups to prevent this from being a reliable statement.

Yes, page 96 says each model has its own characteristic profile.

But as soon as you get to cavalry, warmachines and chariots, the rules tell you a that a number of models come together to be a single model. Going into the rules for characters and mounts, they stop referring to the different profiles as models and start calling them character and mount, while also referring to the totality as the "whole model" in various spots (characters & ridden monsters/chariot mounts). It's very apparent that the chariot/ridden monsters is one model by the games terminology.

And the shield simply refers to the/a model carrying it for the purposes of improving the value. As we know, the chariot/ridden monster is a single model.

It might seem counter to the intent, but mechanically, shields apply to the mounts save value too for characters. It's strangely more mechanically consistent considering tomb guard chariots have shields, while missing any clause about save as they're normal chariots.

You also can't just...make up a sequence for determining the saves. Part of the issue is that there's no set sequence; you just apply shield improvement to the model.

IIRC just being a chariot in 8th edition/some others always gave a 4+ armor save. So you could either pick between your normal armor or the flat chariot armor because the rules said if you had multiple sources of armor you had to pick between them.

Which in practice meant that there was no point in upgrading a chariot characters armor unless you could get it better than the 4+ of the chariot itself. So Tomb Kings normally didn't bother with armor upgrades since most of their characters only had light or heavy armor. While Chaos Warriors all had plate so they could buy a shield and just ignore the chariot giving them armor completely.

It was kinda dumb honestly, but its how it worked. IMO shields should have been usable with chariot default armor but that wasn't the RAW.