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ClockworkZion wrote: So I'm just getting into the game and the more I dig into the Night Lords the more something isn't quite lining up with them. It's like an engine with a single cylinder that misfires and makes the whole thing knock. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're bad, but it just feels like they overpay for their special rules a bit to the point that taking Curze and a Terror Assault feels pretty much an automatic combo to turn the legion all the way on without spending hundreds of points on it's rules.
I originally went into specifics but honestly it felt a bit too much like complaining my sandwich was cut the wrong direction. Like it's still a good sandwhich, but it's just lacking that polish that makes it a great sandwhich.
That's 2.0 in general for me. It's moreso a side-grade from 1.0, rather than a replacement. Some changes I like, some things I dislike, and many things have simply flipped positions. World Eaters for example, it used to be Red butchers were good and Rampagers were meh at best, now it's the other way around, Rampagers are incredibly good, but Red Butchers are at best a niche choice.
Well that's gw for you. Change good and bad around to encourage sales.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I'm just getting into the game and the more I dig into the Night Lords the more something isn't quite lining up with them. It's like an engine with a single cylinder that misfires and makes the whole thing knock. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're bad, but it just feels like they overpay for their special rules a bit to the point that taking Curze and a Terror Assault feels pretty much an automatic combo to turn the legion all the way on without spending hundreds of points on it's rules.
I originally went into specifics but honestly it felt a bit too much like complaining my sandwich was cut the wrong direction. Like it's still a good sandwhich, but it's just lacking that polish that makes it a great sandwhich.
We pay a lot for our rules because they're that good. Owning the Night isn't cheap.
And bringing Curze in a Terror Assault list is the kind of thing I'd only do after warning an opponent in advance. All of the free stuff he hands out on top of his own abilities is like bolting a supercharger to an engine and then adding a 200 horse hit of nitrous, to stick with your analogy.
Really, the only complaints that I have about our rules is what they did to the Atrementar. That was just mean.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I'm just getting into the game and the more I dig into the Night Lords the more something isn't quite lining up with them. It's like an engine with a single cylinder that misfires and makes the whole thing knock. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're bad, but it just feels like they overpay for their special rules a bit to the point that taking Curze and a Terror Assault feels pretty much an automatic combo to turn the legion all the way on without spending hundreds of points on it's rules.
I originally went into specifics but honestly it felt a bit too much like complaining my sandwich was cut the wrong direction. Like it's still a good sandwhich, but it's just lacking that polish that makes it a great sandwhich.
We pay a lot for our rules because they're that good. Owning the Night isn't cheap.
And bringing Curze in a Terror Assault list is the kind of thing I'd only do after warning an opponent in advance. All of the free stuff he hands out on top of his own abilities is like bolting a supercharger to an engine and then adding a 200 horse hit of nitrous, to stick with your analogy.
Really, the only complaints that I have about our rules is what they did to the Atrementar. That was just mean.
Yeah, the more I think about it we have some insane potential to be incredibly toxic. I've been mostly mentally stuck on our melee being bad in TEQ unless we gear up with generic AP2/AP1 wargear.
I am not exactly a fan of what happened to the Atramentar but they do open up the silliest Pride of the Legion with up to 40 Line terminators, plus up to another 80 Atramentar.
Plus whatever else we fill into Elites, retinues and the like.
Would it be good? Probably not, but over 100 Terminators in a list is hilarious to me.
I just will never understand their decision to make Atramentar in tartaros armor instead of cataphracti, when we already have contekar in tartaros. And when those came out everyone (me included) was confused why they weren't cataphracti to begin with. How do they feth that up TWICE?
Like some nerd who played NL in the studio was asked to make a custom unit or something and he was like "yeah just started playing NL about a week ago, I keep hearing bout these Attameantark terminators or somethin, don' know much bout thier fluff, but can we make this cool squad I built last week into official rules?"
Automatically Appended Next Post: And on that note, why can't they just make every terminator unit have the option of armor? They got rid of Sekhmet's choice of armor and they literally have a tartaros plastic kit you could easily make 30K worthy with removing a couple bits. I have multiple friends who did just that, and got shafted for it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/13 20:26:40
Being able to sweep was the better option for a Legion who's bonus' used to only apply in melee, than being more resilient.
The issue with the Atramentar isn't their type of armor, its their cost. Also their low WS for Legion Specials and not being Chosen Warriors (though I think the Contekar get that).
Also ye classic no model no rules, same reason the Deathshroud have Tartaros in 30k, but Cataphractii in 40k. Its how they were sculpted.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/13 20:35:18
And on that note, why can't they just make every terminator unit have the option of armor? They got rid of Sekhmet's choice of armor and they literally have a tartaros plastic kit you could easily make 30K worthy with removing a couple bits. I have multiple friends who did just that, and got shafted for it.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: I just will never understand their decision to make Atramentar in tartaros armor instead of cataphracti, when we already have contekar in tartaros. And when those came out everyone (me included) was confused why they weren't cataphracti to begin with. How do they feth that up TWICE?
And on that note, why can't they just make every terminator unit have the option of armor? They got rid of Sekhmet's choice of armor and they literally have a tartaros plastic kit you could easily make 30K worthy with removing a couple bits. I have multiple friends who did just that, and got shafted for it.
Because, as we're all aware, no model = no rules. All the special terminator units were reduced to whatever forgeworld sold them as equipped with, which is what lead to the issues above. Now what's truly bizarre is why the inconsistently removed the option for jump packs from some units but not others. Like rampagers keep them but reavers and palatine blades don't? Why?
As to some units being good and others not being good, I think part of the issue is that this edition has made terminators incredibly powerful so the metric on how good a unit is, is how readily they can deal with 2+ saves. So if you look at red butchers, they look like garbage because they'll likely get pasted by other terminators, even though they'll absolutely wreck anything that has a 3+ save. Everyone just expects their special terminator unit to be as good as justaerin.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Being able to sweep was the better option for a Legion who's bonus' used to only apply in melee, than being more resilient.
The issue with the Atramentar isn't their type of armor, its their cost. Also their low WS for Legion Specials and not being Chosen Warriors (though I think the Contekar get that).
Yeah, I feel like the decision to make them troops and let them go up to 20 took them from being the rather scary elite terminators they are in lore to being a roving gang of bullies who pick on Tacticals. Add in basically pre-paying for their access to chainglaives and a premium for being non-Line troops out of the gate and they are an expensive bully horse unit in an army of already expensive bully horde units.
I don't hate them, I just think someone decided that all of our special stuff has to be some form of unit designed to bully MEQ and not much else which pigeonholes our thematic choices a lot and causes them to step on each other's toes a lot.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Being able to sweep was the better option for a Legion who's bonus' used to only apply in melee, than being more resilient.
The issue with the Atramentar isn't their type of armor, its their cost. Also their low WS for Legion Specials and not being Chosen Warriors (though I think the Contekar get that).
Yeah, I feel like the decision to make them troops and let them go up to 20 took them from being the rather scary elite terminators they are in lore to being a roving gang of bullies who pick on Tacticals. Add in basically pre-paying for their access to chainglaives and a premium for being non-Line troops out of the gate and they are an expensive bully horse unit in an army of already expensive bully horde units.
I don't hate them, I just think someone decided that all of our special stuff has to be some form of unit designed to bully MEQ and not much else which pigeonholes our thematic choices a lot and causes them to step on each other's toes a lot.
Yeah, and having Deepstrike baked in as well is nice for running Terminators with out having to have Sevatar in every list. The cost of doing what we used to be able to do last edition. But they'll be fun enough, if less effective than using standard Legion Terminators for anything with a 2+ or AV.
Other than the Land Raider Proteus, has everything else we've known about been released (or at least put on pre-order)? I ask because so far the HH waves have been pretty extensive as far as releases go, and the Proteus coming out all by its lonesome would be unusual.
Having said that, the only consistent thing about GW is their inconsistency, so there'd be no reason for surprise if they put the Proteus out and nothing else around it, but are there credible rumours of anything beyond what we've already seen?
Ahtman wrote: So has there still been no word on something as basic as assault marine parts? Still just heavy and special?
HH releases are teased on Thursdays. So we'll either see legion upgrades or something else. I'm split because I need Despoiler/Assault Marines (sorry FW, but $10USD+ per Marine isn't okay) but I also want to see Night Lords upgrades ASAP.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Other than the Land Raider Proteus, has everything else we've known about been released (or at least put on pre-order)? I ask because so far the HH waves have been pretty extensive as far as releases go, and the Proteus coming out all by its lonesome would be unusual.
Having said that, the only consistent thing about GW is their inconsistency, so there'd be no reason for surprise if they put the Proteus out and nothing else around it, but are there credible rumours of anything beyond what we've already seen?
I was tinking that myself.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Ahtman wrote: So has there still been no word on something as basic as assault marine parts? Still just heavy and special?
HH releases are teased on Thursdays. So we'll either see legion upgrades or something else. I'm split because I need Despoiler/Assault Marines (sorry FW, but $10USD+ per Marine isn't okay) but I also want to see Night Lords upgrades ASAP.
Odds are pretty good that NL upgrades will be exactly what you expect... or they're go full Flanderization and be giant bat heads and winged shoulders.
Ahtman wrote: So has there still been no word on something as basic as assault marine parts? Still just heavy and special?
HH releases are teased on Thursdays. So we'll either see legion upgrades or something else. I'm split because I need Despoiler/Assault Marines (sorry FW, but $10USD+ per Marine isn't okay) but I also want to see Night Lords upgrades ASAP.
Odds are pretty good that NL upgrades will be exactly what you expect... or they're go full Flanderization and be giant bat heads and winged shoulders.
I just want heads that look like the Night Raptor ones, even if they come as beakies I'll be happy.
Sunday's "Next week" article teased about significant HH news this week. I'd wager that means something more elaborate than just a few Legion heads getting announced..
tauist wrote: Sunday's "Next week" article teased about significant HH news this week. I'd wager that means something more elaborate than just a few Legion heads getting announced..
I'll keep my expectations low just in case. Like maybe it'll be a new set of molded bases.
tauist wrote: Sunday's "Next week" article teased about significant HH news this week. I'd wager that means something more elaborate than just a few Legion heads getting announced..
tauist wrote: Sunday's "Next week" article teased about significant HH news this week. I'd wager that means something more elaborate than just a few Legion heads getting announced..
It also teased that same for 40k, but it was just the Magic decks.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Being able to sweep was the better option for a Legion who's bonus' used to only apply in melee, than being more resilient.
The issue with the Atramentar isn't their type of armor, its their cost. Also their low WS for Legion Specials and not being Chosen Warriors (though I think the Contekar get that).
Yeah, I feel like the decision to make them troops and let them go up to 20 took them from being the rather scary elite terminators they are in lore to being a roving gang of bullies who pick on Tacticals. Add in basically pre-paying for their access to chainglaives and a premium for being non-Line troops out of the gate and they are an expensive bully horse unit in an army of already expensive bully horde units.
I don't hate them, I just think someone decided that all of our special stuff has to be some form of unit designed to bully MEQ and not much else which pigeonholes our thematic choices a lot and causes them to step on each other's toes a lot.
They can only be troops if Sevatar is your warlord. And they could do that in 1.0, as well as come in 20 man squads. And they were still WS5. And they can bully more than MEQ. They can bully other Terminators, they just have to outnumber them to do it. Including "standard" terminators, because they have a "standard" Terminator stat line. Other elite terminators can bully standard terminators without doing that. That's the problem. 5 Atrementar should be able to wreck 5 standard Tartaros terminators. They don't.
And the reason why they seem overpriced isn't because they pay for those chainglaives, deep strike, Fear, etc. That's fine. It's because they pay a higher "sergeant tax" than any other type of terminators in the game. Every other type of terminators pays +25 points per squad for their sergeant. Atrementar pay +45 points for theirs. That's , plain and simple.
Ahtman wrote: So has there still been no word on something as basic as assault marine parts? Still just heavy and special?
HH releases are teased on Thursdays. So we'll either see legion upgrades or something else. I'm split because I need Despoiler/Assault Marines (sorry FW, but $10USD+ per Marine isn't okay) but I also want to see Night Lords upgrades ASAP.
Odds are pretty good that NL upgrades will be exactly what you expect... or they're go full Flanderization and be giant bat heads and winged shoulders.
I just want heads that look like the Night Raptor ones, even if they come as beakies I'll be happy.
A set of heads that follow the design of the Night Raptors and Sevatar's would be our best hope. None of the recent stuff touches those. They just look so evil. With those and the Terror Squad heads we'd be set.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: Being able to sweep was the better option for a Legion who's bonus' used to only apply in melee, than being more resilient.
The issue with the Atramentar isn't their type of armor, its their cost. Also their low WS for Legion Specials and not being Chosen Warriors (though I think the Contekar get that).
Yeah, I feel like the decision to make them troops and let them go up to 20 took them from being the rather scary elite terminators they are in lore to being a roving gang of bullies who pick on Tacticals. Add in basically pre-paying for their access to chainglaives and a premium for being non-Line troops out of the gate and they are an expensive bully horse unit in an army of already expensive bully horde units.
I don't hate them, I just think someone decided that all of our special stuff has to be some form of unit designed to bully MEQ and not much else which pigeonholes our thematic choices a lot and causes them to step on each other's toes a lot.
They can only be troops if Sevatar is your warlord. And they could do that in 1.0, as well as come in 20 man squads. And they were still WS5. And they can bully more than MEQ. They can bully other Terminators, they just have to outnumber them to do it. Including "standard" terminators, because they have a "standard" Terminator stat line. Other elite terminators can bully standard terminators without doing that. That's the problem. 5 Atrementar should be able to wreck 5 standard Tartaros terminators. They don't.
And the reason why they seem overpriced isn't because they pay for those chainglaives, deep strike, Fear, etc. That's fine. It's because they pay a higher "sergeant tax" than any other type of terminators in the game. Every other type of terminators pays +25 points per squad for their sergeant. Atrementar pay +45 points for theirs. That's , plain and simple.
Ahtman wrote: So has there still been no word on something as basic as assault marine parts? Still just heavy and special?
HH releases are teased on Thursdays. So we'll either see legion upgrades or something else. I'm split because I need Despoiler/Assault Marines (sorry FW, but $10USD+ per Marine isn't okay) but I also want to see Night Lords upgrades ASAP.
Odds are pretty good that NL upgrades will be exactly what you expect... or they're go full Flanderization and be giant bat heads and winged shoulders.
I just want heads that look like the Night Raptor ones, even if they come as beakies I'll be happy.
A set of heads that follow the design of the Night Raptors and Sevatar's would be our best hope. None of the recent stuff touches those. They just look so evil. With those and the Terror Squad heads we'd be set.
Yeah, having the Chainglaives, Fear and DS built in is great. But that Sgt tax is stupid plain and simple. Maybe if some of that tax was instead to make the WS5.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I'm just getting into the game and the more I dig into the Night Lords the more something isn't quite lining up with them. It's like an engine with a single cylinder that misfires and makes the whole thing knock. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're bad, but it just feels like they overpay for their special rules a bit to the point that taking Curze and a Terror Assault feels pretty much an automatic combo to turn the legion all the way on without spending hundreds of points on it's rules.
I originally went into specifics but honestly it felt a bit too much like complaining my sandwich was cut the wrong direction. Like it's still a good sandwhich, but it's just lacking that polish that makes it a great sandwhich.
Not saying you're wrong, but this is not Night Lords specific, and tends to be true of several traitor legions.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I'm just getting into the game and the more I dig into the Night Lords the more something isn't quite lining up with them. It's like an engine with a single cylinder that misfires and makes the whole thing knock. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're bad, but it just feels like they overpay for their special rules a bit to the point that taking Curze and a Terror Assault feels pretty much an automatic combo to turn the legion all the way on without spending hundreds of points on it's rules.
I originally went into specifics but honestly it felt a bit too much like complaining my sandwich was cut the wrong direction. Like it's still a good sandwhich, but it's just lacking that polish that makes it a great sandwhich.
Not saying you're wrong, but this is not Night Lords specific, and tends to be true of several traitor legions.
I think I nailed what it is: Most of the traitors (maybe all of them, I haven't checked) don't unlock line when they take their ROW. So your cool specialist units? Sure you can have 4 of them instead of 3, and likely free up your elites slot a bit, but at the same time they don't gain scoring without doing something like putting a herald into their unit.
ClockworkZion wrote: So I'm just getting into the game and the more I dig into the Night Lords the more something isn't quite lining up with them. It's like an engine with a single cylinder that misfires and makes the whole thing knock. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they're bad, but it just feels like they overpay for their special rules a bit to the point that taking Curze and a Terror Assault feels pretty much an automatic combo to turn the legion all the way on without spending hundreds of points on it's rules.
I originally went into specifics but honestly it felt a bit too much like complaining my sandwich was cut the wrong direction. Like it's still a good sandwhich, but it's just lacking that polish that makes it a great sandwhich.
Not saying you're wrong, but this is not Night Lords specific, and tends to be true of several traitor legions.
I think I nailed what it is: Most of the traitors (maybe all of them, I haven't checked) don't unlock line when they take their ROW. So your cool specialist units? Sure you can have 4 of them instead of 3, and likely free up your elites slot a bit, but at the same time they don't gain scoring without doing something like putting a herald into their unit.
Looking at it now, the only RoW that hand out line for traitors, is “The Crimson Path” for WE, which gives rampagers line but doesn’t make them troops, and “The Reaving” for SoH, which makes Reaver Attack squads Troops and makes them line.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
, plain and simple.
