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 Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...

Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.

Well, for me part of the reason...

lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.

... is summed up right here. The other part...

Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules

... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.

I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.

Yes, that might be something they have to find a way to solve for this, but the complaint seems to be about the idea of demoigrpy knights in general rather than a specific detail on them.

solving it by changing the story/background is the most likely option

Mozzamanx wrote:
Anything with a reference to Karl Franz, who won't be born for a few centuries yet. Admittedly this didn't stop them from using the models in AoS...

as if there is anyone left at studio who knows what the KF on the models means /s

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.

Yes, that might be something they have to find a way to solve for this, but the complaint seems to be about the idea of demoigrpy knights in general rather than a specific detail on them.

That assumes that the whole spiel about the Imperial Civil War being the focal point and the Empire being where much of the action happens is still their current design brief, and not just something they marketed in the early concept stage that has fallen to the wayside by now. Since the early articles, we have seen almost nothing relating to the civil war, and much more for Bretonnians and Khemri, the focus might have shifted or the Imperium stuff might have been relegated to later releases. Who knows what happens with the Demigryph riders when they get around to it.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...

Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.

Well, for me part of the reason...

lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.

... is summed up right here. The other part...

Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules

... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

Well...

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.

I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.

... this cat already covered it.

So basically all the Empire State Troops who got retired will be re-packaged or re-boxed, marked up 30% and made available on Old World launch.

Reboxed yes but if TOW goes the HH route then they might get put in larger unit boxes at a discount on the previous price. Would be the only way I'd play Empire in TOW.

 Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...

Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.

Well, for me part of the reason...

lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.

... is summed up right here. The other part...

Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules

... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

Well...

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.

I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.

... this cat already covered it.

"They fit AoS more than TOW because they fit AoS more than TOW" doesn't explain anything. The Karl Franz specific stuff is understandably an issue, but there's nothing about them having decorated armour that makes their overall design more AoS than TOW/WHFB..

If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

But if you look at the models, the 'Karl Franz' stuff is everywhere - the swords are engraved with it, the coats have 'KF' monograms, their barding has it on them, and where it's not Karl Franz it's the Sigmarite comet which is also problematic for background reasons in the specific setting of TOW. Everything taken together, the kit does not fit. And they did say that 'many' of the demissioned kits would see use in TOW, they did not promise that all of them would - imho it's just that the Demigryphs sit in a niche that's too crowded now - with the various Stormcast cavalry units on the one hand and the upcoming COS cavalry on the other, and will probably just be retired entirely.

Doesn't seem like all that bad a cut to me. Especially since we know at least some (artillery) is getting replaced.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Doesn't seem like all that bad a cut to me. Especially since we know at least some (artillery) is getting replaced.

We do? Where was that mentioned?

The article said there are new artillery pieces to come for the cities.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

I didn't say they don't fit TOW, I just said they aeathetically fit well within AoS. The two are not mutually exclusive, my post is being misconstrued.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

I didn't say they don't fit TOW, I just said they aeathetically fit well within AoS. The two are not mutually exclusive, my post is being misconstrued.

Apparently so. I got that you were saying they fit BETTER in AOS as that fantastical aesthetic is more prevalent, but I was apparently off-base.

Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

Hopefully they will do just that with all factions - the human ones in particular should be different - will also help them sell models if they actually have new models.

I was a bit worried this might not happen when they just reused the Free Company mini with fintlock pistol

Mozzamanx wrote:

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. .

Isn't it more that Ottilia 1st, 800 years before the modern period of TOW banned the cult of sigmar (nevermind that she also moved the cult of Ulric to her domain), during her reign commencing in 1360.

But the empire(s) of 2250-2300, and indeed Ottilian culture, might be very different, with who knows how many ecumenical, reformist and counterreformist developments in those eight (!) intervening centuries. (And indeed the emergence of wolf emperors and the return of the cult of Ulric to Middenheim prior to 1547 tells us some of the many many changes that may have occurred).

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

I feel like the existence of Cogforts trumps the 'tech level' of any units we've seen so far.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

I feel like the existence of Cogforts trumps the 'tech level' of any units we've seen so far.

With the possible exception of Slaanesh

 PetitionersCity wrote:

Isn't it more that Ottilia 1st, 800 years before the modern period of TOW banned the cult of sigmar (nevermind that she also moved the cult of Ulric to her domain), during her reign commencing in 1360.

But the empire(s) of 2250-2300, and indeed Ottilian culture, might be very different, with who knows how many ecumenical, reformist and counterreformist developments in those eight (!) intervening centuries. (And indeed the emergence of wolf emperors and the return of the cult of Ulric to Middenheim prior to 1547 tells us some of the many many changes that may have occurred).

Of course, it's to be expected that the setting will change a little in 800 years, but that also goes in reverse; you wouldn't expect Magnus' Empire to look much like Franz'. I'd say it would be a very strange decision to set the game in a period of division without trying to make that division visible. I suppose an equivalent would be Age of Darkness where both Loyalists and Traitors are covered in aquilas.

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

I believe the Hurricanum is explicitly a post-College invention, meaning that it shouldn't be in TOW. On the other hand the Steam Tanks are a few hundred years old and if anything, there should be more of them because they are in decline in WFB.

If the split of the Empire is made visible depends on how much GW want to invest here

But I don't expect anything but Resin parts to exchange the KF stuff

New plastic would likely also.

Obviously old models won't.

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW.* Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

As for the "Karl Franz" thing: one could easily handwave it as the name of some local nobility, it is not that unusual a name for the Empire after all.


* ... this may or may not be actually true, see a few posts down.

The casual optimist would say TOW has been put on wait for cities of sigmar to get the new range, and once the new AoS models replace the empire stuff, TOW cant be far away, right

 Darnok wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!

It is not impossible I might be reading too much into things.

But...

In the "The Main Factions Revealed" article on May 23rd, after the confirmation of PDF rules for the "minor" factions they also stated: "We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles." If this applies to everything from the main factions as well... good question actually. I think it can be read both ways, and I have to paddle back on my "in no uncertain terms" statement.