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chaos0xomega wrote:
The luminark and hurricanum were explicitly inventions of the Imperial Colleges of Magic, so absent a retcon they wouldn't be present.

I think the fans care a lot more about that kind of stuff than GW does. I would not be surprised if they just ignore that kind of thing and put it all in.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The luminark and hurricanum were explicitly inventions of the Imperial Colleges of Magic, so absent a retcon they wouldn't be present.

I think the fans care a lot more about that kind of stuff than GW does. I would not be surprised if they just ignore that kind of thing and put it all in.

It also depends on which fans. Don't forget a lot of people only see an army in a visual sense rather than a lore accurate one and even if they do follow the lore; its Battletome level lore rather than digging into all the surrounding books.

It's also possible that GW can take the concept of latter generation inventions and back-engineer an earlier version that perhaps fits the same game role and some style elements, but is more primitive/different in style. Something that perhaps was the forerunner that became things like the Hurricanum

 Overread wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The luminark and hurricanum were explicitly inventions of the Imperial Colleges of Magic, so absent a retcon they wouldn't be present.

I think the fans care a lot more about that kind of stuff than GW does. I would not be surprised if they just ignore that kind of thing and put it all in.

It also depends on which fans. Don't forget a lot of people only see an army in a visual sense rather than a lore accurate one and even if they do follow the lore; its Battletome level lore rather than digging into all the surrounding books.

It's also possible that GW can take the concept of latter generation inventions and back-engineer an earlier version that perhaps fits the same game role and some style elements, but is more primitive/different in style. Something that perhaps was the forerunner that became things like the Hurricanum

Worth noting they’re still being sold for AoS, so potentially that’s an indication they may not transfer across.

On a similar note though, I wonder how the indices will handle special characters? GW said there’d be rules for all the old armies but many special characters really don’t fit into the timeframe.

I wonder if the initial get you bys will have rules for stuff that doesn’t fit the era? (Possibly sectioned off?)

IIRC the Age of Sigmar release pdfs made many of the special characters into alternate sculpts for generic heroes, that might be the approach they take with TOW as well.

That or they might reclassify some as new hero's of old or make them generic heroes.

Eg We might not get Franz and his Twin headed Griffin but we might get Bob and his twin headed Griffin.


Old Stuff still in AoS might still port over. At least I'd say anything in Cities of Sigmar that is old-World could be ripe for plucking and moving into the old game. It still has lots of parts that don't quite "fit" AoS or haven't been fleshed out properly/fully or are just hangons. So I'd still put a question mark over everything that wasn't part of the new refresh.


Everything else should be fine; though we might see Demon models do triple duty and move over same as how they work in AoS and 40K (and historically in 40K and Old world)

Many months ago I made a point that most of the current Empire range is inappropriate because of all the Sigmar imagery. My understanding of the setting is that worship was heavily diversified between Empire factions and worship of Sigmar was considered second-rate to outright heresy among the Ulricans/Taalites. Thus, anything with a reference to Sigmar or the twin-tailed comer might as well be a Chaos star for at least half of the Empire factions.

 Overread wrote:
That or they might reclassify some as new hero's of old or make them generic heroes.

Eg We might not get Franz and his Twin headed Griffin but we might get Bob and his twin headed Griffin.


Old Stuff still in AoS might still port over. At least I'd say anything in Cities of Sigmar that is old-World could be ripe for plucking and moving into the old game. It still has lots of parts that don't quite "fit" AoS or haven't been fleshed out properly/fully or are just hangons. So I'd still put a question mark over everything that wasn't part of the new refresh.


Everything else should be fine; though we might see Demon models do triple duty and move over same as how they work in AoS and 40K (and historically in 40K and Old world)

AoS did a big purge of a lot of old WFB stuff a couple of months ago (mostly from CoS). That stuff I *would* expect to reappear rebadged as TOW, especially as it contained all the HE (who are a core TOW race) and all the old WFB artillery.

But IMO that puts the stuff which survived the purge in a dicier position.

I'd expect the Dark Elf and Dwarf stuff to still shift over. Can't imagine longbeards/ironbreakers/hammerers not making the jump back.

And doesn't AoS still have almost the entire DE range for Cities?

Mozzamanx wrote:
Many months ago I made a point that most of the current Empire range is inappropriate because of all the Sigmar imagery. My understanding of the setting is that worship was heavily diversified between Empire factions and worship of Sigmar was considered second-rate to outright heresy among the Ulricans/Taalites. Thus, anything with a reference to Sigmar or the twin-tailed comer might as well be a Chaos star for at least half of the Empire factions.

Yes and no. Religion is of course used for political reasons - both by rulers and the cults themselves.

Sigmar is the patron god of the Empire but often other gods outside the Reikland are as important or even more so. Talabheim is probably the most prominent as under its first (self proclaimed) Empress it denounced the Cult of Sigmar as a heresy with Ar-Ulric moving to her city to support her and her claim. However alot of people are not going to be anti-Sigmar as such.

Alot depends I feel on how many new models they want to do - as priests and warriors priests of the various sects seem an easy win - help distinguish factions and provide different forms of magic for thre Empire whilst providing sexy new models for us to buy.

Overread wrote:That or they might reclassify some as new hero's of old or make them generic heroes.

Eg We might not get Franz and his Twin headed Griffin but we might get Bob and his twin headed Griffin.


Old Stuff still in AoS might still port over. At least I'd say anything in Cities of Sigmar that is old-World could be ripe for plucking and moving into the old game. It still has lots of parts that don't quite "fit" AoS or haven't been fleshed out properly/fully or are just hangons. So I'd still put a question mark over everything that wasn't part of the new refresh.


Everything else should be fine; though we might see Demon models do triple duty and move over same as how they work in AoS and 40K (and historically in 40K and Old world)

Pretty sure a handy rename will be the answer. Look at the new Unicorn Prophetess they showed. It's literally Morgana Le Fay. Not named that, but it's the exact same loadout.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd expect the Dark Elf and Dwarf stuff to still shift over. Can't imagine longbeards/ironbreakers/hammerers not making the jump back.

And doesn't AoS still have almost the entire DE range for Cities?

Dark Elves are not a core race so they’re not jumping back at all (get-you-by list aside), imo probably part of why all the HE got purged but none of the DE did.

The Dwarfs stuff is more weird unless they’re bringing back the old metals like with the WE Treeman (though the last set of basic plastics did technically make longbeards).

Pointedly, post purge, other than BoC and WoC all the Core armies no longer have a substantial AoS presence. Most of the remaining Empire stuff is not in the right timeframe.
All the AoS armies that kept a substantial amount of the WFB range are not Core so won’t be supported beyond the initial lists.

If you see what they’re doing with 40k and Heresy atm, trying to keep the lines separate seems to be their plan.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Many months ago I made a point that most of the current Empire range is inappropriate because of all the Sigmar imagery. My understanding of the setting is that worship was heavily diversified between Empire factions and worship of Sigmar was considered second-rate to outright heresy among the Ulricans/Taalites. Thus, anything with a reference to Sigmar or the twin-tailed comer might as well be a Chaos star for at least half of the Empire factions.

I would think all the old Empire kits with the name "Karl Franz" decoratively sculpted into armor and heraldry (like the Demigryph Knights) might be a bigger issue.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd expect the Dark Elf and Dwarf stuff to still shift over. Can't imagine longbeards/ironbreakers/hammerers not making the jump back.

And doesn't AoS still have almost the entire DE range for Cities?

Dark Elves are a non-supported pdf faction for TOW. The dark elf kits are going to remain in AoS, they are split between Cities and Daughters of Khaine.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd expect the Dark Elf and Dwarf stuff to still shift over. Can't imagine longbeards/ironbreakers/hammerers not making the jump back.

And doesn't AoS still have almost the entire DE range for Cities?

Dark Elves are not a core race so they’re not jumping back at all (get-you-by list aside), imo probably part of why all the HE got purged but none of the DE did.

The Dwarfs stuff is more weird unless they’re bringing back the old metals like with the WE Treeman (though the last set of basic plastics did technically make longbeards).

Pointedly, post purge, other than BoC and WoC all the Core armies no longer have a substantial AoS presence. Most of the remaining Empire stuff is not in the right timeframe.
All the AoS armies that kept a substantial amount of the WFB range are not Core so won’t be supported beyond the initial lists.

If you see what they’re doing with 40k and Heresy atm, trying to keep the lines separate seems to be their plan.

We already have seen reference to iron drakes in tow so will be in both games.

Dark elves are in a really strange spot.

The entire army is still in AoS Cities of Sigmar, barring their two big named heroes, Morathi and Malarion. Both of which are now gods leading their own armies, of which only Morathi's Daughter's of Khaine have models.

GW could make DE into an entire army in AoS in a single throw of a battletome and 2 or 3 hero leader models - boom done whole army and honestly not really any super-old plastics in there either. All very serviceable and functional.

It's very strange - more so because GW did kind of soft-reboot DE as an army in an expansion book for AoS with the Daughters of Khaine. That said I feel that many DE fans are just kind of on the fence as to if GW is going to kill them or not - because barring that 1 bit of lore they've done nothing with them.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd expect the Dark Elf and Dwarf stuff to still shift over. Can't imagine longbeards/ironbreakers/hammerers not making the jump back.

And doesn't AoS still have almost the entire DE range for Cities?

Dark Elves are not a core race so they’re not jumping back at all (get-you-by list aside), imo probably part of why all the HE got purged but none of the DE did.

The Dwarfs stuff is more weird unless they’re bringing back the old metals like with the WE Treeman (though the last set of basic plastics did technically make longbeards).

Pointedly, post purge, other than BoC and WoC all the Core armies no longer have a substantial AoS presence. Most of the remaining Empire stuff is not in the right timeframe.
All the AoS armies that kept a substantial amount of the WFB range are not Core so won’t be supported beyond the initial lists.

If you see what they’re doing with 40k and Heresy atm, trying to keep the lines separate seems to be their plan.

This.

It does leave BoC, WoC, and to a lesser extent Dwarves in a weird position. Also Gloomspite Gitz as their main battleline unit was once the nightgoblin kit for Orcs & Goblins. I'm curious to see how all that ends up shaking out, whether those kits end up splitting time between both games or if they have a plan to divide/separate out the model ranges.

As far as WOC are concerned I've been theorizing that the TOW WoC won't have proper chaos warriors as we knew them (what with this being the pre-Kul era) and will be more like norscan marauders, so they'll pull the Chaos Marauders and Marauder Horsemen back from AoS (which lets be real, nobody uses) and maybe a couple other of the other older kits (warshrine? chariots?), put the forsaken and warhound kits back into production, season with chaos ogres/trolls/giant, dragon ogres, and hellcannon to taste. Add a chaos war mammoth in as the new big plastic centerpiece kit, a few new chaos shaman/priest/sorceror types and marauder lords and you're golden.

I'm not sure why they didn't remove the Dwarf units from Cities of Sigmar, unless they intend for that style of Dwarf to find a home in AoS and intend to go a different direction in ToW? I think (if I recall) that the units that remain in the CoS book were just a small minority of the range, so its possible for them to fully reconstitute WHFB style Dwarves in a workable army without them, yes?

In terms of O&G, most of AoS is non-WHFB at this point except maybe savage orcs? Do they go back to WHFB and form the core of a new O&G army? Do they take spider grots with them from the Gloomspite list (Im thinking no)? Does GW cut the moonclan grots from the AoS range (theyve mostly been pushing squigs instead of infantry as the way to play the list anyway)?

I have no idea what they are going to do with Beasts of Chaos short of basically excising them fully from Age of Sigmar. Would be a double-slap in the face to BoC fans that stuck with their faction through the End Times into the AoS era, but 90% of the range is legacy WHFB anyway. With Ogroids and the like being StD units despite their obvious similarities to BoC units, I kinda feel the writing is on the wall that they will go this direction, and then maybe they rebuild the AoS BoC faction with Tzaan/Slaan/Pest/Khorngors and Ogroids, etc. to differentiate it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
That said I feel that many DE fans are just kind of on the fence as to if GW is going to kill them or not

Thats how I feel. I've wanted to go out and buy an Order Serpentis/Scourge Privateers or whatever they call em themed AoS army for a while... but I won't because of the uncertainty behind what will become of the faction.

Well, I have some, tiny, very tiny, hope that Tomb Kings get new regular Skeleton Spearmen/Archers/Riders/Chariots. Those are so old that I would find it weird that those would be reproduced.

Yet TOW is (as far I understood) is more akin to Specialist game so it probaply does not get that much love.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'd expect the Dark Elf and Dwarf stuff to still shift over. Can't imagine longbeards/ironbreakers/hammerers not making the jump back.

And doesn't AoS still have almost the entire DE range for Cities?

Dark Elves are a non-supported pdf faction for TOW. The dark elf kits are going to remain in AoS, they are split between Cities and Daughters of Khaine.

Meh, all the armies are pdf's when they drop. The direction of ToW has changed more than once since the idea was presented a few years ago. Then the focus was going to be the empire in civil war. Now the focus has turned into Brets vs. TK. I can't imagine we won't see DE as a real faction once they get around to releasing books since the entire range is still available outside of their bolt throwers currently in one form or another. It's similar to the Dwarf models. But maybe a fantasy staple will be non-supported as well.

"Dark Elves in TOW" is going to become the "Xenos in Horus Heresy" of fantasy gaming.

chaos0xomega wrote:
"Dark Elves in TOW" is going to become the "Xenos in Horus Heresy" of fantasy gaming.

Aren't we already ahead of that given that they are getting actual rules off the bat and I've never seen Eldar or Ork rules in HH? But you keep on keeping on.

guess a lot of TOW is in flux until GW sees if it actually sells

I'm hoping it does

 Overread wrote:
Dark elves are in a really strange spot.

The entire army is still in AoS Cities of Sigmar, barring their two big named heroes, Morathi and Malarion.

"Entire army" seems extremely generous, given how much stuff was outright deleted.

You can't even have a regular Dark Elf Lord unless he's got an entire dragon glued to his backside.

 Hulksmash wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
"Dark Elves in TOW" is going to become the "Xenos in Horus Heresy" of fantasy gaming.

Aren't we already ahead of that given that they are getting actual rules off the bat and I've never seen Eldar or Ork rules in HH? But you keep on keeping on.

I don't consider "here's some half-assed free rules we are putting online and will never look at, touch, rebalance, update, or mention again" to be "actual rules".

 vipoid wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Dark elves are in a really strange spot.

The entire army is still in AoS Cities of Sigmar, barring their two big named heroes, Morathi and Malarion.

"Entire army" seems extremely generous, given how much stuff was outright deleted.

You can't even have a regular Dark Elf Lord unless he's got an entire dragon glued to his backside.

As I said the only models missing are the 2 named leaders - oh and the reaper bolt thrower now I remember it.

But in general everything else is there, its just spread out into a few of those "subfaction groups" and such.

Basically if you wanted to rebuild DE all GW needs to do is give them a Battletome and a few token hero models and the army would be ready to go. Ergo if they got the same model support that Fyreslayers or Flesheaters have had to date (excluding the very recent update to the FE range); then the Dark Elf army could have been a thing in AoS as a fully functional army. But because its in Cities no one knows what's going to happen to it; esp after we saw HI and WE elements get whittled down steadily to almost nothing.

Heck if GW did an Elf Cities of Sigmar focused force i'd just expect them to roll those last few bits of HE and WE into the DE and call it a united Elf force. Indeed considering how many elf models they had I'm surprised they've never done it. I'm guessing that GW themselves don't know really what to do with them.


Part of me also wonders if the Dark Elves are just hanging on as the "dark elf" type of army until Malarion gets his army release.

With one more "how to play" or "hype" article left, when do you think this game will be released? Before or after AOS4.0?

I reckon march.

Late December is killteam, i doubt they'd release a game in jan or feb. March is the end of the first quarter.

February like rumored. Give time for it to sell. Hope the game does well, I’m tired of remembering all these different rules for the different rule sets (oldhammer, WAP, 9th age, etc).

than don't play multiple games if you cannot handle it

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
75 Universal Specials rules over 15 armies is not a lot frankly. Especially if they are all in one place it makes everything easier overall.

Is it too much to hope the army books won't have new special rules?

I mean... I assume there'll still be army books, but maybe that's not the case? Do we know?

 Aesthete wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
75 Universal Specials rules over 15 armies is not a lot frankly. Especially if they are all in one place it makes everything easier overall.

Is it too much to hope the army books won't have new special rules?

I mean... I assume there'll still be army books, but maybe that's not the case? Do we know?

We know the Brets have army specific special rules from this article…

just from the Grail Knights article we can assume ~5 faction and unit specific USRs per faction in addition to the 75 "core" ones

also for comparison, Ninth Age has ~140 USRs and Kings of War ~50 (both including army specific ones)